Any Idea for those riddles?

[Dasale]

I recently discovered that Mac+ emulation was working quite fine so I got the opportunity to replay a CPRG, Citadel.

I finished the game a long time ago... but I had the hint book! :biggrin: Now I replay it I see two riddles and couldn't find their answers. One could be just a joke but the second isn't. No I don't have anymore the hint book I gave it to a friend a long time ago and now we have lost contact, anyway he probably lost it or drop it!

I don't hope too much anybody played it but who know perhaps someone could give me an idea even without to have the full context of the game.

First riddle:
How long does it take to fall 10 feet?
The game expect a text answer and after a wrong answer the party falls bellow. Eventually this one is just a joke, or the solution won't bring a lot.

Second riddle:
To pass you must know whence I came to this keep.
Again, the game expect a text answer.

For both riddles it's a sort of large skull embedded in the wall that ask the question.

Well any suggestion is welcome at the point I am! :biggrin:

[Alrik Fassbauer]

For riddle 1 I'd say it's a more physical question. How fast does an item with a spcified amount of weight need to fall ?

A rather practical approach would be to take a stone, let it fall 10 feet down, and stop the time. :D

But I must admit that I don't know this game at all, sorry.

[Dasale]

Thanks for trying anyway. This game is totally obscure and I couldn't find any topic about it, just few stuff relative to download it.

I'm hoping for a sort of brain storming to get idea from anybody, eventually to give me another idea, I'm looking for fresh point of view.

About the first riddle, I admit I haven't tried the physical approach, this is a fantasy CRPG. Additionally the text expects an input I wonder if it will detect a number range.

I have found some math to answer a similar question (that was 10000 feets instead of 10) but well it's not that simple even when I have the computing right under my nose! :biggrin:

When searching more on Internet I found one comment:
A couple of riddles are presented in the Citadel. The primary one is rather
pathetic, although the answer will elude you until you step back and look at it
as yourself, not one of your characters. (Pattern baldness is caused by
scratching your head too much while thinking about the riddle.)
Well his comment just puzzles me more!! I send him an email but don't hope a lot for an answer.

[Dasale]

For riddle 1 I'd say it's a more physical question. How fast does an item with a spcified amount of weight need to fall ?

Well I applied the formula I found somewhere and it gives:
0.788s without air resistance.

I tried in game for the text answer:
0, 0s, 0 second, 0 minute, 1, 1s, 1 second, 0.7, 0.7s, 0.7 second, 0.8, 0.8s, 0.8 second, 0.788, 0.788s, 0.788 second! :biggrin:

[dteowner]

"1 step" or "1 click"?

As for the second, how about "life" since the skull, presumably would have been alive at some point.

[enodenroH]

g = 9.8 m/s2 = 32.2 ft/s2

Gravity.
Wikipedia.

[magerette]

Don't think this will help much but here's an old review:
Citadel (http://www.textfiles.com/games/REVIEWS/citadel.rev)

All it says about the riddles is:
A couple of riddles are presented in the Citadel. The primary one is rather
pathetic, although the answer will elude you until you step back and look at it
as yourself, not one of your characters. (Pattern baldness is caused by
scratching your head too much while thinking about the riddle.)

[titus]

mmm what about how long does it take to fall 10ft? 10Ft
second one : since arrival?

[Dasale]

Thanks you for suggestions.

I tried click but not 1 click :-) nor something around step. I also tried 10 feet and 10 but not 10ft nor since arrival.

Going try the new ideas, please fire more. :)

EDIT: So 1 click, click, one click, 1 step, step, one step, 10, 10 feet, 10ft didn't work for riddle 1. And since arrival didn't work for Riddle 2.

[Dasale]

For Riddle 2 (To pass you must know whence I came to this keep.) here what I think I tried (a typo error not seen during check is always possible):

mouth, teeth, skull, head, skeleton, man, bone, bones, grave, cemetery, tomb, entrance, east, west, north, south, left, right, behind, above, top, back, backward, side, wall, walls, ceiling, town, ground above, gold, past, hell, evil, ground, underground, here, now, and probably few other. The weirdest is that to be sure I should try again all those I quoted above!

Anyway if you have any idea, please fire more, even if the solution is probably right under my nose and someone that didn't play the game couldn't see the detail.

[Prime Junta]

Death? (character limit)

[Dasale]

Ok so I check the, again with few more, jaw, nose, stone, rock, keep, elevator, door, stair, stairs, grate, button, click, silence, entrance, floor.

It is going nowhere (I tried nowhere too!), the riddle only is probably not the solution.

Here some more details:

For the two riddles it's the same skull embedded in the wall.
I made a snapshot album, some show the skull : Citadel slideshow (http://photos.gafana.com/citadel).
One skull is on top level I found, I get there only with an elevator and it is above the level of the entrance. This skull says the riddle 1 and you fall to entrance level if the answer is wrong.
The second skull is down, it's the level 3 if entrance level is level 1. This skull says the riddle 2. It happens nothing when the answer is wrong.
The detail to click in the both skulls is the same but it is at right for first skull and at left for second skull.
For the first skull I split the party to let some in the escalator and some other click and fall but only get a hole where adventurers fall, I quoted nothing.
I try move forward on close walls and hear sounds to see if I notice any difference but nothing.
For the first skull, torches on left and right walls can move when they can't for second skull. I light them for first skull, try remove them, try put them back not light, and light them again but didn't found or quote anything.
I look closely at each walls nearby but didn't notice anything special.
In a lower level I found a cup with some liquid but I didn't try anything with it yet and don't see what link it could have with the skulls. I notice I couldn't drink the cup when in town but had the command when in Maze, I haven't explored that yet.
EDIT
I haven't found yet the tools to have automap but also haven't done it manually because at this point it's quite easy to not be lost in levels. Well perhaps I should to eventually notice something.
I checked spells available in shop and quote nothing like reveal secret only notice a bash door spell but it costs a lot and I don't see how it could apply.

[Dasale]

Death? (character limit)
I tried it and dead too for riddle 1, I tried with riddle 2 and nothing.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

To riddle 2 I'd say "magic".

Because a speaking skull within a wall isn't something normal.

It must've been embedded there - by someone, by some means.

So I think it must be something close to that.

[Elwro]

For the first riddle, I'd try "1 turn", "1 move" (+variants like "a turn" / "turn"); maybe "no time" or "not long".

[Dasale]

To riddle 2 I'd say "magic".

Because a speaking skull within a wall isn't something normal.

It must've been embedded there - by someone, by some means.

So I think it must be something close to that.
Yes magic has logic I think tried it :) anyway not sure I really tried it and thanks for the quote. So I checked magic, spell, illusion.

In the same row of attempt I tried voice, sound, speaker(!), light, torch, torches.


It must've been embedded there - by someone, by some means.

So I think it must be something close to that.
Yes someone else should have bring that and I need search through the story.
I think of it but not so directly formulated, I tried find elements and idea of answer from information I get previously in the game. But there isn't much to explore, the game is quite mysterious in fact.

Just find a name of someone as you suggest is a good idea and could make a good riddle+solution. Alas I don't have a lot information yet, I get more later in the game and in deeper levels but quite tough at this point. Anyway I'll try review the game with that in mind.

The very bad news is as I haven't the game anymore I don't have the manual nor have the original save file and you can't start with none. So eventually the answer is hidden in the manual or in a game introduction you see only the first time you launch the game.

[Dasale]

For the first riddle, I'd try "1 turn", "1 move" (+variants like "a turn" / "turn"); maybe "no time" or "not long".

I didn't tried any of those, I think I tried none, no :-), instant, immediate. Let me try...

I tried them and also, few time, some time, short time, quick, fast.

None worked.

I'm not sure this riddle is more than a joke but on another part if you fail it and don't take care before to split your party you end in blocking the elevator and don't have access to many levels anymore and only have few options from what I quoted, in few place there's possibly a weird secret. The only obvious options you still have with a blocked elevator are:

Find the answer for the second riddle.
Find something to do with the strange cup I found.
Jump down in a hole with no clear escape path and as far I know the only way to heal is to use a temple for healing service or a hostel. At this point my party has only very poor healing ability.
There's also one levitate spell in shop but it cost a lot and not sure it can allow to move up and get back the control on the elevator (it's to try as there's a jump command that jumps above a hole).
But on another side when using the elevator it's only on few lower level you can open the door and the difficulty seems a little too high for the low level party.

[FugueInCPP]

The solution you came up with for your first answer may be slightly off depending on what you use for acceleration due to gravity. This value isn't actually constant and does fluctuate depending on your altitude. So 32.2 ft/s*s gives you your previous answer, but most lay-people generally use 32 ft/s*s which yields a slightly different answer.

You can use simple Newtonian mechanics to find the time based on distance and acceleration (gravity in this case):

distance = initial_velocity * time + 0.5 * acceleration * time * time

In your case initial_velocity is 0 'cause your not moving yet, and your distance is 10ft so...

10ft = 0.5 * acceleration * time * time

Divide both sides by 0.5...

20ft = acceleration * time * time

And acceleration due to gravity is 32 ft/s*s (which we'll just call 32 for simplicity). So divide both sides by 32...

20/32 = time * time
20/32 = 0.625 so
0.625 = time * time
And the square root of 0.625 is 0.790569, not 0.788... which for a text entry may make all the difference. I'd recommend trying either 0.79 or 0.791 for your answer (seconds of course)

[Dasale]

Well in fact I don't remember if I used 32 or 32.2, probably 32.2 as you said if you check it. It's right that I forget try 0.79 that I could attempt even with initial result I found. I don't think such computing will be the solution but who know? It could work anyway, let try it... None worked but thanks for the suggestion.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

So eventually the answer is hidden in the manual or in a game introduction you see only the first time you launch the game.

So, this could be some kind of copy protection, then.

By the way, I don't know what language is your own one, but "eventually" has a different meaning in English than in German, by the way.

[titus]

for riddle 2 how did you came here? with the elevator? simple but too plain too see maybe :)

[Grog]

First riddle:

The game expect a text answer and after a wrong answer the party falls bellow. Eventually this one is just a joke, or the solution won't bring a lot.


So it wants to know how long it takes you to fall 10 ft, then it drops you through the floor (grid based game, with 10 ft cubes so presumably a 10 ft drop?). I'd say it'll take a "riddle" for you to drop 10 ft.

[Dasale]

So, this could be some kind of copy protection, then.

By the way, I don't know what language is your own one, but "eventually" has a different meaning in English than in German, by the way.
I doubt the riddles are an official copy protection I don't remember that and there was already the code wheel for that. They could be a hidden copy protection not clearly mentioned in the manual.

About the manual I realized that beside possible hints for some riddles it could includes some important information like the low level cleric spells.

For the word "eventually" you are right I believed it's meaning was different even I'm not German.

[Dasale]

for riddle 2 how did you came here? with the elevator? simple but too plain too see maybe :)
In fact from stairs because the elevator door is closed at this level and I don't have the key. I think I tried this one, let me check again... Nope, nor elevator shaft, stair, stairs.

[Dasale]

So it wants to know how long it takes you to fall 10 ft, then it drops you through the floor (grid based game, with 10 ft cubes so presumably a 10 ft drop?). I'd say it'll take a "riddle" for you to drop 10 ft.
Lol that one is vicious! :biggrin: It didn't work, nor a riddle, question, a question.

[Jaz]

Interesting... but you might be on to something there. What about 'until I give a wrong answer', 'wrong reply', 'until I come up with the correct solution' or something similar? Provided, of course, that the parser is up to it.
Parser... hmmm... 'until I'm done typing'? :p

Riddle No. 2: 'home'?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

What still goes on in my mind is the fact that in riddle 1, you do indeed fall down if given the wrong answer ...

[DeepO]

I haven´t seen it mentioned, though you´ve probably tried that already, but the answer for the second riddle could be "from beyond" or "beyond".

As for the first riddle, I think that it requires some thinking out of the box, judging by the way it´s formulated. But I can´t think of any other than those already mentioned (click, turn, riddle etc).
Well, 10 feet = 120 inches if I´m not mistaken so you may try that as well. After all, "how long?" may not be necessarily time related question but badly (intentionally or not) formulated distance related one.

[Dasale]

Mmm Jaz and Alrik you got an interesting point of view. I see your point, it is looking a bit like the classical riddle: I cut your head if you lie and I sink you if you tell the truth, what do you say me?

Very interesting, it's not that but could be similar point of view. It's a little late so I'll investigate and make attempts tomorrow.

Mmm and a very good news, I just got the manual from the same guy who provided me bigger snapshot of the code wheel. I have a lot too read and too much excitation, will be hard to sleeep but I must! :biggrin:

[Dasale]

I haven´t seen it mentioned, though you´ve probably tried that already, but the answer for the second riddle could be "from beyond" or "beyond".

As for the first riddle, I think that it requires some thinking out of the box, judging by the way it´s formulated. But I can´t think of any other than those already mentioned (click, turn, riddle etc).
Well, 10 feet = 120 inches if I´m not mistaken so you may try that as well. After all, "how long?" may not be necessarily time related question but badly (intentionally or not) formulated distance related one.
Thanks for the suggestion, I didn't tried any, beyond is beyond my English knowledge! And the inches trick is quite weird but could work. I'll try them tomorrow

[Dasale]

Cough cough still not asleep, well but by reading the manual I got the idea for the solution of riddle 2.

I have to admit that by interpreting well a point in the game I could have find it without the manual. The manual just put the word under my eyes and I just followed one of the idea we listed but by using this word.

I don't give the solution to let anybody have the pleasure to find it. Also don't worry, nobody could have gave me the right word without to have run the game.

Thanks for your help but that's not finished, there's still the riddle 1 to solve. :biggrin:

[Alrik Fassbauer]

You know, there are spoiler tags ... ;)

(Because I'm curious now ... :D ;) )

[Dasale]

Dam I had search the spoiler tag but it was hidden by the post icons window! Now I realize there's one. :biggrin:

So:

forest
Yes that simple! I tried wood because when exploring more I found some names on texts found and one was Darkwood. :)

The point that I didn't saw is that the village close to the dungeon was full of trees. Another difficulty is forest instead of wood. When I read the manual it mentions forest around so...

Well people that look at the slideshow I linked are almost as much culprit than me because there's the picture with plenty of trees. :p

[Dasale]

About the riddle 1 and the curious link between the question and the answer given through what happen if you provide a wrong answer:

I'm playing with the idea of using a levitate scroll to setup the skull in a sort of contradiction, or something like that.

I also found an item with stuff in it that "seems to defy gravity" and I'm also playing with the idea to use it in some way with the riddle 1.

[Cm]

Let us know if that trick was it. I would sure try levitate or defy gravity items. In which case the answer would be none I guess. lol

[Dasale]

Let us know if that trick was it. I would sure try levitate or defy gravity items. In which case the answer would be none I guess. lol

At this time i tried only the basic and it didn't work. I didn't tried to mix the levitate use with various anwers like the one you suggest.

I tried:
- Use the levitate spell, trigger the riddle, and use an empty response.
- Trigger the riddle and its trap. Then use the levitate spell to trigger again the riddle with the trap already activated.

For the item I mentioned, I haven't discovered yet how I could use it in this context.

[mute]

This thread is the most fun reading in a long time. Brings alot of old memorys of strange games played in the past! :)

I like the idea of using levitate or using the stuff that defy gravity. It might seems like this riddle, about how long does it takes to fall 10 feet isn't as much a riddle as a "statement".

If you're not prepared to trigger the question, the answer about how long it takes to fall, you will realize by the fall. But if your prepared correctly, the "fall" will not happened and the treasure is yours.

Or whatever... :)

But good fun reading you got number 2.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

If you're not prepared to trigger the question, the answer about how long it takes to fall, you will realize by the fall.

Yes, and by this fall you can first-hand find out how long it takes. ;)

[Dasale]

Well, time the fall is almost impossible, it's quite short and reflex delay could have a too important effect even if "in theory" the delay time at start should be counterbalance by delay time at end. But in practice I trigger myself the start but not the end, perhaps I should ask someone else to say the start to let the reflex delay plays its role? :biggrin: Not to mention that the exact end isn't clear.

Mmm and a detail I quoted in the manual, the tower "sink" into the ground at midnight. Not sure what I can do with that and this riddle.

Among the various thing I tried, there's the time you spend in the Maze since the last time you enter it. So the time to fall is just the time to reach the skull and trigger the riddle... except that if I'm right... then I'm wrong because I won't fall... But then if I fall I'll be right... :biggrin:

No it didn't work. But now it makes me think that I can have the age of the PC including the number of days... Should I translate it in seconds, minutes, hours, days...? :biggrin:

Damit I just got a new idea that could be the one. :p There's a spell that tells the distance from the entrance to the point where the party is. Could be that number the solution.

That said this riddle is just a parallel thing because I have much to do elsewhere in the Citadel including more stuff as much intriguing.

[Dasale]

It might seems like this riddle, about how long does it takes to fall 10 feet isn't as much a riddle as a "statement".

In fact that leads to the more routine "solution", this riddle is just a joke with no solution, also a way to show the player that it's evil not on party side, or even a hint for a future riddle, each level is 10 feet high. :)

[Cm]

Well let us know what comes of it. Personally I would use the levitate stuff and type None, I float. But I bet you get a clue somewhere in there, they always do, just have to keep looking. Just save before using those items. ;)

[GothicGothicness]

WOW, do all of us not miss these kinds of games? when was the last time a game had a riddle so hard we had to put our heads togheter to try to solve it? hmm I am thinking about getting that game Citadel sounds cool!

[dteowner]

I'm just amazed the answer doesn't seem to be out there on the vast Web. A bit of humble pie, too, that a board full of old skool RPGers can't solve a single @#$%^@ riddle.

[aries100]

The nest thing you could try is asking a the rpgcodex. I once asked about a 30 year old game I played for like 5 minutes or so but since the net wasn't invented back then, I couldn't go any further. The answer came prompt: Colossal Cave...

I bet some of those guys over at the codex would know the answer...

[pibbur]

WOW, do all of us not miss these kinds of games? when was the last time a game had a riddle so hard we had to put our heads togheter to try to solve it? hmm I am thinking about getting that game Citadel sounds cool!

I remember playing "Martian Dreams", there was a place where I had to enter some time of day (AFAIR). But I couldn't find out how to enter it. Tried different formats, to no avail. Found out after literally trying for weeks. One of the most exciting games I've ever played.

My first RPG was Bard's tale 2. I spent 1 year playing that one. I found it very difficult. Spinners in total dark. The "Herbs" that always started at 60-70'. And multiplied as they came closer. And multiplied......

[Dasale]

The nest thing you could try is asking a the rpgcodex. I once asked about a 30 year old game I played for like 5 minutes or so but since the net wasn't invented back then, I couldn't go any further. The answer came prompt: Colossal Cave...

I bet some of those guys over at the codex would know the answer...
Nice but this site has a link in case you forgot your password, here they require the email AND the userid.... If you try register again using your email then they refuse because there's already a userid for this email....

So those people think you could forgot your password but they never imagine you can forget your userid!!! :lol:

Sorry but that's a band of i....s that manage this c..p. (free riddle, let name it riddle 3 :p )

[Dasale]

WOW, do all of us not miss these kinds of games? when was the last time a game had a riddle so hard we had to put our heads togheter to try to solve it? hmm I am thinking about getting that game Citadel sounds cool!

I have made a zip package ready to use to play Citadel on both Mac or PC. That's a very simple install. This package size is 5.1Mb but it includes the PDF manual and the two large snapshots of the code wheel.

You can get it at: http://www.megaupload.com/fr/?d=8OHB81QE
Quote to admins: If quoting this url is against rules, please remove the url and instead: Just send me a PM with your email if you went that I send you a link to this pack.

[dteowner]

Are you sure the game is officially abandonware?

[Dasale]

Are you sure the game is officially abandonware?

Are you sure any game is officially abandonware? This one is get from underdog affiliate, Mac Garden. Do you want we review all links quoted in this topic?

PS: I'd love buy again this game or any port of it and its hint book too. :biggrin:

[dteowner]

No need to get fussy, I'm just asking. If it made it to an Underdogs affiliate, chances are good nobody's got a problem with it being there.

[Dasale]

No need to get fussy, I'm just asking. If it made it to an Underdogs affiliate, chances are good nobody's got a problem with it being there.
Fussy? Sorry if I hurt, I didn't wanted to.

[Corwin]

I'd prefer people PM for a link, simply because I'm hesitant to post links to any dubious site. It's borderline, so I'd like an admin ruling if possible.

[enodenroH]

I vote for Corwin on this one.
I'd hate to see our beloved Watch to close for something like this.
May this never happen again.

[Pladio]

Why would someone want to spend 5 days solving a riddle in a game ?
I have to do that in uni, I want my games to be fun, entertaining and enjoyable, not head-breaking.
I know it feels nice to solve something after you've tried for a long long time, but doing it in a game to advance from one place to the other just seems crazy in my not too humble opinion :P

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Some people just like it that way. They want a kind of challence.

Riddles often have something to do with immersion - the kind of bind the player to the game ...

In The Hobbit, the riddles could've been left out, too ... But they were in, as a part of the scenery ...

[Dasale]

Why would someone want to spend 5 days solving a riddle in a game ?
I have to do that in uni, I want my games to be fun, entertaining and enjoyable, not head-breaking.
I know it feels nice to solve something after you've tried for a long long time, but doing it in a game to advance from one place to the other just seems crazy in my not too humble opinion :P

Nobody spend 5 days into a single riddle. There are parts of the Citadel to explore without finding the 2 riddles. I did exploring in parallel until I found the riddle 2. It's perhaps possible to finish the game without to solve it but it won't be easy.

Once I found the riddle 2 I explored more and found more problems to solve some nice tricks. It's quite clear that it's important to find this riddle 2 but for riddle 1 I think there's no solution or it's not that important to find it.

It's also clear that those 2 riddles aren't well done but also it's even more clear that now many players play games with one eye on the game and another eye on the walkthrough, that make them quite lazy and used to get feed like little birds. :)

[wolfing]

Nobody spend 5 days into a single riddle. There are parts of the Citadel to explore without finding the 2 riddles. I did exploring in parallel until I found the riddle 2. It's perhaps possible to finish the game without to solve it but it won't be easy.

Once I found the riddle 2 I explored more and found more problems to solve some nice tricks. It's quite clear that it's important to find this riddle 2 but for riddle 1 I think there's no solution or it's not that important to find it.

It's also clear that those 2 riddles aren't well done but also it's even more clear that now many players play games with one eye on the game and another eye on the walkthrough, that make them quite lazy and used to get feed like little birds. :)
Well, I'm almost ashamed to say I'm like that... now. Back in the day I would spend days, even weeks, to solve a puzzle. Zork 1, Quest for Glory 2 and Space Quest comes to mind. But nowadays, I don't have that much patience, maybe because there are so many other games to play (back then I would have THE one game I was playing), or maybe because there just wan't an Internet back then so the most I could do was ask friends to see if they could figure the problem out.
But yes, I would like more riddle based games instead of the usual trend of stupid jumping sequences.

[JDR13]

Do you still have the wheel decoder that came with the game? Maybe that holds some answers.

http://mac.the-underdogs.info/index.php?show=game&id=479

[Dasale]

Well, I'm almost ashamed to say I'm like that... now. Back in the day I would spend days, even weeks, to solve a puzzle. Zork 1, Quest for Glory 2 and Space Quest comes to mind. But nowadays, I don't have that much patience, maybe because there are so many other games to play (back then I would have THE one game I was playing), or maybe because there just wan't an Internet back then so the most I could do was ask friends to see if they could figure the problem out.
But yes, I would like more riddle based games instead of the usual trend of stupid jumping sequences.
I know we all became a bit like that, I do too. But for me there is ton of game I enjoy play. Most just don't appeal me anymore I don't even attempt try them and among those I'm still playing it's almost only CRPG and there isn't a very good CRPG released every month.

About Citadel, the two riddles I quoted seems to me not that good. But all other puzzling I found are great. Nothing as difficult like those riddles and at this point I haven't see more direct riddles like the 2 I quoted. It's just plenty tricks to find, and the hints are very well done and the difficulty very average and often it's juts easy thing to notice. I also enjoy a lot the diversity, objects use, world interaction, levels links (holes, elevator, multiple stairs), some secrets, some tricky progression, and some cool little tricks about party swapping. I even had to left my party already split because all split was stuck and had to take a rescue team to save my party, really great.

[Dasale]

Do you still have the wheel decoder that came with the game? Maybe that holds some answers.

http://mac.the-underdogs.info/index.php?show=game&id=479
I don't see how, in the page at Mac Garden there's the 2 snapshots of the code wheel, to see both you only need refresh the page.

This code wheel is more items like swords, armors and so on a box number from 1 to 5 and a letter.

Anyway I have to admit it, at this point I give up for riddle 1. I could have even found the secret it opens through another way. Plus I don't see this riddle blocking the way to the end.

[Dasale]

Done, I erased the black evil from the underground of the earth and freed the citadel. :biggrin:

I must thanks those who help me solve the second riddle, the active participation and proposals help me persevere in searching this riddle. Without solve it it's probably possible to finish the game anyway but in a much tougher way or by finding and using a weird trick. The game is definitely more fun if you solve this riddle.

I left the citadel with many mysteries behind. That was tricky and I had to solve some other puzzles and another riddle but that third riddle was very easy. But I also let many puzzles or probable puzzles unsolved, plus avoid few puzzles though an alternate path but I would have prefer solve those puzzles. In fact it's only a half win because if I freed the Citadel and destroyed the evil master, I failed to save the princess until after the end when clearly you should do it much before. Ha well. :)

[Dasale]

I post this in another forum but as its closely linked to some other puzzles and riddles unsolved in this game, I quote it here.

If that was only about the first riddle I wouldn't care too much about the hint book or some help. But there was many more.

It's in spoil tag because even if there's no answer it's still significant spoiling for someone that want play the game.

For example in past I played it with the hint book help and:

In past with the help of hint book I found inside the citadel 4 NPC that could join the team when this time I found only one.
A secondary NPC can tell you your good fortune, without the hint book I didn't found how despite I found the NPC.
There's an important musical riddle to solve I still remember reading the hint book to solve this one, this time I found nothing and overcome the problem through a weird trick.
There's a series of inscriptions on walls that is about the temple of the princess and that have some intriguing parts that make suspect some hints and/or puzzles is hidden there but I found nothing. For example a part of this is series of inscription is: "In this, the temple of Lady Synd, you must give of yourself to find true knowledge.".
You are supposed to free a princess and with the hint book I remember this happen not too late when this time I didn't really free the princess but failed this and only released her by killing the badass and by freing the Citadel.
And even, I have to admit it, to not have find the solution of the first riddle, despite I don't think now it's important at all, is also a little frustrating!
There's many mysterious objects that are quite intriguing and I found the use of only few when I think to remember (not sure) that some of them had an important use. For example:

There's a Hourglass with this description: Blown lead glass with carved willow frame. Sand within seems to defy gravity.
Theres 2 cups you can drink in and I found the use of one but not the other (mmm that gave me an idea I didn't tried in game). The description of the cup that keeps its mystery is: Chalice, Roughly wrought copper. Contains a liquid of eye-opening stench.
There's a slate and you can write on it but how and when use it I didn't found when I remember something about wrapping somewhere, not sure.
There's a glass ball with the description: Murky white crystal mounted in cast iron. And you can inspect it but I haven't found any use of it when I have a very vague souvenir that there was something to do with this item.
There's a sting that glows despite it seems not have any magic attributes. Again I have a vague souvenir about this item and anyway it is intriguing.
There's a statue with the description: Two hands high, carved white jade. Inscribed on base, "Veilstone Jem Wrights". Again a vague souvenir that it's an important item disturb me, I suspect a link with one of the NPC that could join the party that I haven't found this time.
There's a golden skull embedded in a wall that says: "Stroke the orb to light your stay, but fear, for He will know your way!" . And right under it you find a hammer that seems to be a standard object, it's a Lucern Hammer. Eventually I found something about stroking and at some points believed to have find the way to free the princess but in ends it failed.
And more intriguing items.