Demo released

[BearishSun]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/gothic3/demo/9570.html

Go and play!

[txa1265]

Already got the retail version weeks ago ;)

Yep, but for folks in North America, the retail doesn't hit until next week, so this is a nice preview.

[Corwin]

Hope it boosts sales, cause that's a fun, simple little section!!

[mudsling3]

Just try out the English demo, but my German vision is loaded instead...some corrupted saved games. The two are in completely different folders. What happened?

[ToddMcF2002]

I guess I'm alone on this one - but my first impressions are very poor.
- Runs very badly as expected (3.2Ghz, 1 Gig RAM, x850 XT) with pauses 1-3 seconds at times. I can play Oblivion smoothly.
- Melee combat feels totally disconnected compared to G1/G2. Tactically useless control scheme in my opinion. In addition, if I didnt see a small spray of blood I would have no clue that I even hit my opponent. Hit detection is rediculously bad.
- Terrible place to start the game, getting knocked down and losing your weapon before you even get your bearings. Minor issue I guess.
- Losing weapon "feature" is rediculous and frustrating
- at first glance the landscape looks worse than Oblivion and manages to be just as "generic". Of course I've only seen near town.
- As soon as I left town, it crashed - memory allocation of course.

[ToddMcF2002]

Yeah I know why they did it but its really bad. Really, really, really bad. There are no tactics at all and there is no "hit" animation either. No feel for a connection at all. Its just BAD.

You know if feels like they motion captured the melee and you are just running a standard animation when you swing. It totally encourages rapid click.

And people rail against Oblivion melee. Jeesh.

Very disappointed.

[Cormac]

I agree with you Todd about the combat. One of the best thing about OB's combat is that you felt every hit that connected. In G3 it's as if you're fighting ghosts.

[migwell]

I am pleasantly surprised by the demo. Surprised that it runs pretty well on my 3 year old box, that is.

I have been replaying Oblivion with the settings cranked up to the limit of what I can manage and getting poor framerate, slowdowns and lots of crashes and lockups as well. The G3 demo runs easily as well or better on Medium settings and I have hit level 6 without a crash.

Definitely true that so far G3 appears vastly easier than G2 and a walk in the park compared to NOTR.

[curious]

gothic games have always been memory intensive. 2 gb is what you need. people like me who have 3+ year older machines can run it fine. this was not made for a next gen console like oblivion, thankfully, so spending less than a 100 for some ram is hardly a complaint when buying a new video card or whole new machine is required to run oblivion on good settings.
the combat seems easy at first, and in some regards it is throughout the game but there is far more options. in the prior gothics you could only carry 2 types of weapons and basiclly swing back and forth. tryi to wield a shield, a staff or a second weapon in gothic 1 or 2. all of these in gothic 3 are quite rewarding, not to mention the bow is awesome in this game. also there is magic staves which you can block spells with while casting a spell of your own- looks cool.
gothic 3 has evolved in many ways. this is what happens with creativity and the urge to try new styles out. nothing is worth that being formuleaic, ie most modern games/music etc. try to think of radiohead, argueably the worlds greatest and most respected current band. there lots of people who claim to be fans but don't like their later stuff. evolution is not to feared. people place faith in gods that don't exist, maybe they should place that faith in people who create amazing works of any medium...but i guess people want someone to blame just as much as they want someone to praise. i should be scolded for falling so far off topic i know...

[Gorath]

The demo includes 3 villages (Ardea, Cape Dun and Reddock) with all quests and NPCs. That´s close to 20 hours of gameplay if you look under every rock.
The game needs some time to really take off, just like the older Gothics. Another combat update is announced for the next patch. It won´t change the system itself but tweak everything and finish the balancing.

You´re only losing your weapon when you´re unconscious. Outside the starting area it´s handled like in the older Gothics.

Players with only 1 GB RAM should spend some time on tweaking. Especially the streaming and the low frame rate can be optimized, which could be enough to earn you one or two screen resolution increase(s).

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

I'm downloading it now, but am very sceptical it will work on my system. NWN2 doesn't run properly, I doubt this game will. Also, i wasn't fond of the first two games, at all, so I am happy with this demo. At least I can see if it runs and if I like it, before I buy it or not :)

[migwell]

I waited for this demo out of concerns about bugginess and system demands. So far, I have encountered 1 bug, where I jumped up on a ledge to escape a boar attack and he was able to kill me somehow from an invisible location below. I've had no crashes or locks, and the simple in-game graphics tweaks are giving me a good framerate while keeping the visuals looking very nice.

Clearly, with !GB of RAM, the 'seamless' world has a few slowdowns as new areas load, but this is tolerable. It was at first discouraging that you could take out Orcs at level 1 (shades of Oblivion), but after playing for a while, the new balance makes more sense. I just spent an hour cleaning out a cave full of Skeletons and a Mummy, and it was some real Gothic action with tough fights.

I guess those of us who love the Gothic series will love this one, and those who never could get into G1 or G2 will probably not catch on once again. Great work, in my opinion. One complaint, though. Echoing some comments above, the visceral thump of battle is definitely missing in G3, and the sound effects are at least partially to blame. Whacking away at opponents is a largely silent affair (and probably thanks to German law) very un-gory as well. Too bad that unlike the Elder Scrolls series, the Gothic games don't seem to lend themselves to modding.

[txa1265]

The demo took care of my fears - I was satisfied with combat (though it isn't nearly as good as Dark Messiah, for example), the performance was good, and the little I saw felt very Gothic-ish.

[Pfandpirat]

I have read somewhere in the WoG-forum that the 4th patch is going to overhaul the combatsystem somewhat (especially humans vs animals).

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

I installed the demo and it runs a lot better then NWN2. It looks good as well.
I can't get past the first 5 minutes though, a bit of a chance to find out how the controls work would have been nice...
How do I pick up things? Because the orcs keep bashing my sword out of my hands, and I can't figure out how to pick it back up. :(

[Pfandpirat]

You can pick up things by clicking the left mouse button when the item is marked in your hud (when its name is displayed on the screen).

[migwell]

I really didn't know what hit me in that opening fight, and like everyone, I suppose, didn't have a clue about the controls, but after running for my life after mysteriously losing my sword, I managed to switch to bow and arrows. How to make the newbies hate your game...

[Arexen]

Yeah I'm a 5-year experienced Gothic vet and that opening scene had me scrambling quite a bit....mostly because of the lag though. :(

[Alistair]

You don't have to fight the orcs when the game starts. Just turn around and head out of the village. Get the hang of the controls a little way away and then return... if you want :)

[Lethal Weapon]

You'll get use to it and then you'll like it like i did. The combat is dumbed down from previous versions you know why ;)

The targeting is very annoying when in fights most of the time it'll switch automaticly it seems or you'll attack your team mate or when your in a fight you pull out your weapon but you cant attack and then you get raped by wolves etc.

I'm level 52 btw and wolves are super dangerous if not careful.

There is a simple trick to avoid hurting neutral NPCs, keeping the right mouse button down keeps your current enemy at focus and all subsequent left clicks will be directed only against him. Allies (their names appear in blue) cannot be hurt by accident, so try making allies before liberating towns etc.

Also never fill the combat queue as this makes the controls unresponsive, for example you draw you sword but got hit by wolf, so the hero unequips, you then hit quickly the spacebar twice, causing the hero to equip and then immediately unequip.

Trying to do the best of a not-so-good situation.

[ToddMcF2002]

I really didn't know what hit me in that opening fight, and like everyone, I suppose, didn't have a clue about the controls, but after running for my life after mysteriously losing my sword, I managed to switch to bow and arrows. How to make the newbies hate your game...

Not just newbies. >:(

[Corwin]

At least in the opening sequence, you can't be killed. Sure, losing your sword is a pain, but you'll get it back and eventually, you'll have a lot of loot and if you join in, experience to start you off. It's actually a mini-tutorial.

[Gokyabgu]

I played the demo today, demo's version is 1.9 and running perfectly. The weird thing is i have the European version and i could'nt start the game until i installed the demo. Full version can not install visual basic library properly while demo can. So, i can play full version now but it is 1.7. I must update it to latest patch because 1.7 is full of bugs.

[TheMadGamer]

Well after two hours my pc finally downloaded the demo and last night I got to play for about 2 or 3 hours. My first impressions are in stark contrast to Todd's so here are my responses in comparison.

Runs very badly as expected (3.2Ghz, 1 Gig RAM, x850 XT) with pauses 1-3 seconds at times. I can play Oblivion smoothly.

On this point, we have similar experienes. One of my pc's is an intel Intel 3.4ee with 2GB of RAM and an ATI X800. Gothic 3 video is set to 1600 x 1200 and game detail is on 'medium.' On this machine, I experiences stutters and pauses occasionally. But really, it isn't anything unusual compared with my 25 years of game... new games that push current hardware almost always have poor and inconsistent framerates.

I have a 2nd PC that is an Intel 3.2 with 2GB of RAM and an ATI X1900. Gothic 3 video is set to 1600 x 1200 and game detail is on 'high.' This machine actually runs about the same with only slightly better 'perceived' framerates and a draw distance a little further out (since game detail is on high.' Stutters and pauses still occur. Again, nothing that would really cause me to dwell on this point too much during gameplay.

Compared to Oblivion, the stuttering and pauses are really about the same. I think my experience is slightly better than Todd's because of the extra 1GB of RAM.

- Melee combat feels totally disconnected compared to G1/G2. Tactically useless control scheme in my opinion. In addition, if I didnt see a small spray of blood I would have no clue that I even hit my opponent. Hit detection is rediculously bad.

On this point I will admit right up front that when it comes to RPGs, my personal priority of interest is with the story, adventuring, quest solving, character development, and then, finally, combat. Much like I don't care for cell phones too much, I realize my priority of interests as they relate to RPGs is in the minority by a huge margin. That said, combat did seem a little 'whispy' meaning that I just sorta clicked my mouse button and my sword swished thru bodies in the same manner it swished thru the air when i missed my target. I just don't get too excited over combat... it's necessary to enjoy the improvements to your character and his equipment but on this point I just sorta shrug... combat just isn't a huge deal for me. I can see how people who really can get into the combat aspects of the game might be a little disappointed in this area especially since the recetly released Oblivion did such a better job in this department.

Terrible place to start the game, getting knocked down and losing your weapon before you even get your bearings. Minor issue I guess.

I really don't enjoy the experience of RPGs that start you out in the middle of a combat situation. I don't like it in G3. I didn't like it with Ultima VI. However once I realized that neither my character nor any of the other village characters with real names were going to die, I relaxed, followed the on-screen hints as they appeared, and enjoyed it for what it was worth.

Losing weapon "feature" is rediculous and frustrating

I didn't experience this. What are you talking about?

at first glance the landscape looks worse than Oblivion and manages to be just as "generic". Of course I've only seen near town.

I disagree on this point. The village area, the beach, the rebel camp, and some of the terrain between the starting village and the town that is encapsulated inside a dome all seemed varied and interesting to me and quite detailed... on both my X800 and X1900 machines.

As soon as I left town, it crashed - memory allocation of course.

I didn't experience any crashes during gameplay. However, when I quit playing on my X1900, the game locked up my machine on the 'Gothic 3 Coming On November 20th' screen requiring a hard boot to resolve.

OTHER COMMENTS

1) I experienced a weird graphical glitch on my X800 machine when standing in the area near Diego and the other characters from G2. It was like a weird clipping situation where my view pitched straight up and the screen flickered very fast. Moving away from Deigo resovled it and it did not repeat when I went back to Diego.

2) I'm used to G1 and G2 being really stingy with resources early on in the game. In G3 after only two hours of gameplay I have, literally, hundreds of items (many just from the opening battle with the orcs) and thousands of gold pieces. It just seems to be in stark contrast to G1 and G2 where in the beginnings of those games resources were not easy to come by. I have no feel for the economy yet with G3, so all the stuff I have may be just a lot of junk and 4k of gold may be a trivial amount.

3) Like my comment above, leveling to level 3 was really fast and in start contrast to leveling in G1/G2 which took some time. It's not a big deal, just was surprising to see the 'level up' message so many times in two hours.

4) Walking into huts in the starting village and in the rebel camp did not elicit responses from NPCs. In the starting village I took everything off that one NPC's table (the npc who is fat) and he said not a word. The fire mage in the rebel camp is the only one so far who got mad when I tried to loot his chest.

5) Drawing your weapon in front of NPCs does not elicit a response like in G1/G2 where nearby NPCs would demand you sheath your weapon 'or else....'

6) I really like the polished interface. Everything is really laid out nicely and has a lot of 'polish' to it compared to G1/G2. The quest screen is really nice. I also like that the map screen comes up so quickly compared to the 5 second delay for a map to appear in G2. Hopefully this enables reviewers here in the U.S. to talk more about the gameplay and less about the 'poor controls.' God if I read one more U.S. based review that slams G1/G2 about 'weird controls' I'm going to go postal...

Final Comment
Overall, G3 has really captured my intereset. I feel compelled to explore every nook and cranny. The game has a nice, 'organic' feel to it. The graphics have this look to them that sorta makes it feel like you can reach into your monitor and grab stuff. I highly recomend grabbing the demo.

[Alistair]

2) I'm used to G1 and G2 being really stingy with resources early on in the game. In G3 after only two hours of gameplay I have, literally, hundreds of items (many just from the opening battle with the orcs) and thousands of gold pieces. It just seems to be in stark contrast to G1 and G2 where in the beginnings of those games resources were not easy to come by. I have no feel for the economy yet with G3, so all the stuff I have may be just a lot of junk and 4k of gold may be a trivial amount.

4) Walking into huts in the starting village and in the rebel camp did not elicit responses from NPCs. In the starting village I took everything off that one NPC's table (the npc who is fat) and he said not a word. The fire mage in the rebel camp is the only one so far who got mad when I tried to loot his chest.

5) Drawing your weapon in front of NPCs does not elicit a response like in G1/G2 where nearby NPCs would demand you sheath your weapon 'or else....'


The economy is pretty balanced. Better weapons and armour can cost tens of thousands. The responses in the starting village are I think responses from people whose village you've just saved... and drawing a weapon works in much the same way as G1&2. I exepct you're trying it in front of your new buddies. Try it in front of some other people, if the demo has any...

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

I'm an hour into the demo now. After the abrubt beginning, which jared me a bit, the game is suprisingly good. Combat seems easier then in gothic 2, and I like the story so far and the dialog. Wish I hadn't picked up nWN2 now... I'll play the demo a bit more though, see what I think after a while :)

[HiddenX]

TheMadGamer:
1) I experienced a weird graphical glitch on my X800 machine when standing in the area near Diego and the other characters from G2. It was like a weird clipping situation where my view pitched straight up and the screen flickered very fast. Moving away from Deigo resovled it and it did not repeat when I went back to Diego.

Fixed:
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7126&postcount=133

[ToddMcF2002]

TheMadGamer:

While I appreciate your lack of emphasis on combat in RPG's, I'm coming from the perspective of G1 and G2. Combat in G3 a monumental step backwards compared to its predecessors. Given how much "hack and slash" there is in Gothic, that's definately not a good thing.

Everything else you said I won't disagree with since I was so disgusted with the demo I havent touched it since it crashed. I'll be building out a C2D 8800GTX system soon and I'll try the demo again. Until then I'll remain disgusted.

[lostnumber]

ToddMcF2002, I agree with you whole heartedly. Considering the fact that a majority of G3's game-play and character development is centered on combat I feel as though the system implemented in G3 really detracts from the game.

When not talking to NPCs one will either be exploring, fighting or performing a combination of the two. Exploration is rarely rewarded, and combat is dull, uninspired, and quirky. I understand enjoying the game for the story, expansiveness, beauty, and RPG aspect; but having to accommodate or compensate for the game's shortcomings in order to enjoy it really devalues its overall quality.

A player shouldn't have to manage a game in order to enjoy it. Working with a quirky combat system is not enjoyable; the combat system should work for me, it should be second nature. A combat system should be intuitive, fluid, responsive, diverse, and entertaining. Improvements and developments should be measured and noticeable, improvements should be rewarding not marginal. Truthfully, the dual wield feature seems tacked on. I can hardly notice a difference between a beginner swordsman and a master. Where is the incentive for developing a melee character? A character with 300 strength and the full array of combat perks swings just like a character with 100 strength and no perks. The only noticeable differences are that one can knock people down - which in most cases isn't beneficial - or score a one hit kill.

In sum the combat in G3 blows hard, and considering the fact that the player is going to be engaging in a lot of combat it becomes hard to ignore or forgive. And no, a focus on magic or ranged combat shouldn’t be a result of a poorly designed hand-to-hand combat system.

The initial novelty of the game coupled with the fact that it is part of the Gothic series really had me pulling for it. I flipped on the rose-tinted glasses and went crazy. Even though I still consider myself to be a tried and true Gothic fan this game is far too much of a departure from the original Gothic feel to be considered worthy of the Gothic name. I know that many here enjoy the game for what it is; but I think that it can be universally agreed that G3 could have been a much better game and doesn't live up to the standards set by its brethren.

[curious]

i release there are 'some gothic fans' who are having problems with gothic 3. it is inevitable that some people don't like change. but do you really think you are showing any support to a company who brought you in your opinion 'two great games' by sticking your nose up at this one. they offer more combat options plain and simple. they ofter a bigger world plain and simple. and they ofter more of lots of things. obviously with the limited amount of time given and staff they can't spend a year just working on swordfighting. but this is not called sword, or blade, or even knight. i hardly think the sword fighting in gothic 1 and 2 is what made the game. do you really think most people are going to care if they can suddenly hold the sword a different way and how does this add to the game. its always sad when things that we liked from previous games aren't included but true greatness is not staying the same, but trying new things which often have some amount of failure. i really implore all 'gothic fans' who are having problems to hold steadfast and enjoy this marvelous game. its really only your loss if you don't.

[Thaurin]

I won't post a long defence of the game. I played a long session yesterday and I don't think it's all that bad. Some people have far too extreme opinions about this game for me to take them seriously much. That's just what you get when you want Gothic 1, but get Gothic 3. It's the same when people saw Lord of the Rings in the cinema and were expecting the book. I haven't even begun to learn about all that the combat system has to offer, but like TheMadGamer, combat is just one aspect of what a game like this has to offer. Even so, I like the feel of it so far. It's not even that different compared to the other games.

[migwell]

Good points here. My experience of the game demo has been somewhat different from that of many, and I think I see why.

Number one: I just did a replay of Oblivion using a Ranger mod and Marksman skill, so the much improved Bow implimentation in G3 has been a lot of fun for me. Shoot and run away may not be everyone's favorite style, but such is the life of an archer. That or find an inaccesible shooting spot.

Number two: Using my bow skills I quickly freed a smith from Orcs and installed him with the rebels, for which I was able to get the Flame Sword. I have seen some talk of this sword considered overpowered or as a 'bug' in the game, but I will say that it very quickly levelled the playing field in one-on-one combat. I have taken out 2 wolves, 2 Orcs and even (luckily) 2 Boars at a time with this sword.

Even so, fighting any animal on uneven ground or in foliage is a big mistake. I run away to find flat, open space or even better maneuver them into a spot where I can back them into a wall.

With my Archery skills up, and with the Flame Sword, I have cleaned out the demo. Single-handed, I freed Cape Dun, killing every Orc and mercenary in the town before freeing the Paladin. I have also cleaned all the caves and decimated the wildlife, dragons. ogres and mine crawlers, reaching level 16. And it has been good fun and quite Gothic-like throughout.

I do think that the combat balance is wonky and needs improvement, but I am really looking forward to the upcoming US release.

[Pfandpirat]

Shouldn´t it be already available?
13th of November was the last official release date as far as I know.

[txa1265]

They said 13th, but my pre-order said to expect it on the 15th, meaning they thouhgt it would actually ship today.

[Ragnar]

i release there are 'some gothic fans' who are having problems with gothic 3. it is inevitable that some people don't like change.

Well…from what I have been reading, it’s a lot more than just “some people”. I would say “most people”.

but do you really think you are showing any support to a company who brought you in your opinion 'two great games' by sticking your nose up at this one.

If a game is poorly designed or rushed to market…especially when comparing it to its predecessors…who is at fault? Certainly Not the consumers!! The only power a consumer has over a product…is with the all mighty dollar. If a product is bad and everyone goes out and buys it anyway…then what incentive is there for the producers of said product, to make a better product.

they offer more combat options plain and simple.

If the system is not what people expect or of poor design…again comparing it to its predecessors…then what good is it. Quantity does not make up for poor quality.

they ofter a bigger world plain and simple. and they ofter more of lots of things.

Again, Quantity does not make up for poor quality.


obviously with the limited amount of time given and staff they can't spend a year just working on swordfighting.

And again, whose fault is that? And since Sword Fighting plays such a major part in Gothic, you would think that that would be one of the game aspects that would get a lot of attention. Having not played the game as of yet I can not personally comment on the fighting system. But I will say this…I have done a lot of reading on peoples comments and views of G3 and the masses are not happy. Sure there are your typical Gothic “Fanboys” out there who will always argue the game is the greatest thing since the light bulb. But their view is generally clouded by there obsessive love for the game and in that respect, will never be able to be truly objective in their opinions. But the people out there who recognize G3 for what it truly is…a product made for consumers to generate a profit…all agree that the product falls short of expectations.

but this is not called sword, or blade, or even knight.

What does a name have to do with a certain piece of a games mechanics.

i hardly think the sword fighting in gothic 1 and 2 is what made the game.

Maybe in and of itself…no. But it certainly played a major role. So much so that it sparked major discussions in the forum in one form or another.

do you really think most people are going to care if they can suddenly hold the sword a different way and how does this add to the game.

If you read “most” of the threads concerning this issue, then you would not be making this statement.

its always sad when things that we liked from previous games aren't included but true greatness is not staying the same, but trying new things which often have some amount of failure.

“True Greatness” is being able to recognize ones “failures” and then correcting them.

i really implore all 'gothic fans' who are having problems to hold steadfast and enjoy this marvelous game. its really only your loss if you don't

Not true…this is spin. If a product is flawed, you hold off on the monetary rewards until said product is fixed. Then and only then do you reward the producer with monetary gains. Then the next time they decide to make a product, their will be more incentive to make it right the first time to increase their reputation and profit margin.

[lostnumber]

I had a feeling that my focus on combat would elicit this type of response. I'm not just upset because *many* of the skills are unfinished or bugged, I'm upset because a lot of the *game* feels unfinished and bugged.

I've played this game for a few weeks for hours on end; I probably ended up easily dumping about 80 hours into it. I ran around like a damn idiot looking for interesting places to explore and great fights to battle through yet I found myself being disappointed on many fronts. Graphical bugs or issues, issues with installation, overall game-play balance, boring and unbalanced combat, boring characters, interchangeable towns, unrewarding exploration, a terrible and incomplete journal system (it often doesn't include relevant parts of the conversation!), unfinished caves, broken quests, excluded options, and incomplete, bugged or unrewarding skills.

Obviously if I was able to play it for hours on end for a few weeks I must have thought that something about the game was entertaining. The problem here isn't that the game is worthless; it’s just unfinished, imbalanced, and bugged.

I already understand the need to try something new and I get the idea of delivering more quality and content to the customer. As I see it, the issue is that the project, and everyone involved, took on way to much. The result is something that we experience way too often in this market, an awesome start that could have been an amazing finish if it were given more time.

I really feel that listing each particular issue in *detail* would be redundant and offensive. I am glad that some people are enjoying this game. However, if everyone just accepts what is given to them nothing will get better. When I bought G2 I expected G1, but instead of getting G1 I got something better! I would have settled for something like G1 when playing G2. Now, when I purchased G3 I was expecting something like G1 or G2, but this time I got something less. I would have taken a marginal improvement over either one of G3's predecessors; improve the graphics, make a world that is a little larger and add in a few new small features, essentially do what G2 did for G1. Instead I got a world that was 4 times as large, an entirely new graphics engine, completely different game-play, and a brand new character design and development scheme; all of which felt unfinished and rushed in their implementation.

I'm not against something new, and I am for change; I just can't accept something that feels rushed and incomplete. It’s an average game that falls short of expectations, combat is just one facet of my argument.

*EDIT*: I think Ragnar does a better job of explaining my view than I do, oops.

[txa1265]

If a game is poorly designed or rushed to market…especially when comparing it to its predecessors…who is at fault? Certainly Not the consumers!! The only power a consumer has over a product…is with the all mighty dollar. If a product is bad and everyone goes out and buys it anyway…then what incentive is there for the producers of said product, to make a better product.

QFT!

I am still highly anticipating Gothic 3, and very much enjoyed the demo, but am prepared to realistically evaluate the product. If it is broken or bad I will call it as such - I see no value in 'defending the product' unless it deserves defense.

For example, I loved Deus Ex - to the extent that I skipped playing the demo since I knew it would contain the beginning, and ran out on day of release to get the game. One of the worst experiences EVER! Perhaps my most hated game of all time. And there were those out and about defending it and saying that we had to stick by it or we'd lose the chance to get another Deus Ex ever ... tough luck I say - they had the opportunity to make a good game and they made crap.

I hope that Gothic 3 is good - I've been avoiding reading much here to keep away from spoilers - but if it isn't then they deserve to get skewered. If it is truly excellent but lacking polish, that is truly unfortunate, as they'll lose tons of sales because of a few months ...

[Gorath]

A Gothic newbie will probably like the game if he expected an open-ended game. Gothic 3 is an explorer´s dream, and it has good internal and technical values. It´s lightyears ahead of all the generic crap.
It´s just the weakest "Gothic" yet. The magic is gone because PB added much more content but decided to scale down on quality. I bet the add-ons will be excellent, now that they´ve identified the problems.

[curious]

most is a very hard word to use. there are many people on these boards who have been long time gothic fans and who can overlook the flaws to enjoy what is one of the best games ever. it doesn't matter if they are in the minority, it doesn't mean their opinion or yours is right or wrong. it just means that like some of the greatest gems in this world throughout history the majority either scoff at from lack of understanding or difficulty in ease of use. there are so many examples. would you rather live in a palace with holes in the roof and walls and some broken tiles on the floor or a pristine shack shack next to a bunch of other pristine shacks?

the game has never been unfinishable. so yes lots of bugs are problems but many have been fixed and you people need to start enjoying life and focus that negative energy on changing the actual 'bad' in this world not flawed products.

like i said before pirhanna bytes is one of the most talented developers out there. it may be time for you to 'give up on them' since their creative direction is not dictated by what you or i say...

[ToddMcF2002]

I've played this game for a few weeks for hours on end; I probably ended up easily dumping about 80 hours into it. I ran around like a damn idiot looking for interesting places to explore and great fights to battle through yet I found myself being disappointed on many fronts. Graphical bugs or issues, issues with installation, overall game-play balance, boring and unbalanced combat, boring characters, interchangeable towns, unrewarding exploration, a terrible and incomplete journal system (it often doesn't include relevant parts of the conversation!), unfinished caves, broken quests, excluded options, and incomplete, bugged or unrewarding skills.


Funny how most of these criticisms are leveled at Bethesda like its a national pastime and yet PB get a free pass???

Its pretty clear to me that PB did *exactly* what Bethesda did - try to make a HUGE and graphically outstanding world as job #1, gameplay demoted to job #2.

Too bad PB couldnt even finish job #1. It runs worse than Oblivion and looks worse than Oblivion. You'd have to have your eyes examined to think otherwise.

But I'm a huge Gothic fan so I'll give PB a free pass and buy it anyway. Actually, I don't think so.

[bjon045]

I don't want to play the demo if the savegame can't be carried through to the full game. Does anyone know if this is possible?

I am thinking I will wait for the addon before I play Gothic 3, hopefully it puts more content into the original world like NOTR did for G2.

[txa1265]

Funny how most of these criticisms are leveled at Bethesda like its a national pastime and yet PB get a free pass???
What's wrong with that - it's like 'Weasel Stomping Day' from Weird Al's latest ... ;)

[curious]

the story is always most important, so given what they had created and lead up to how were they suppose to create a small mainland? another orc palisade would have been rediculous by the way.

anyone who complains needs to offer solutions otherwise they are just a noisy teapot that needs to be lifted up and taken away.

i think gorath is right in now they can create smaller addons that allow them to add more depth, which those with complaints 'could' enjoy more. but not if they don't play gothic 3 first.

just to note i now have more posts than i had in the over 5 years i was at rpgdot. this is the reason i avoided posting much, as i deplore arguing and the even more futile online debating. i simply enjoying reading about gothic and such and am somewhat shocked to have seen more negative energy, besides normal 'trolling', here than i did my entire time at rpgdot. i am sorry if i ever upset anyone, if so lets be friends...its more enjoyable

[lostnumber]

Curious, I understand your anger. To place the ideas behind the general negative sentiment into your analogy though: G3 is the palace with all the holes whereas G2 and G1 are the gold plated super palaces of ultimate decadence and excess that put the collective extravagance of Hollywood to shame by a factor of 10. We were promised a gold-plated palace but purchased one with holes instead

There is no lack of understanding here, when the developers come out and say that they are not even 100% satisfied with the game it becomes hard to ignore the fact that something is missing.

I think PB is great; it takes a lot of balls to come out and publicly apologize for a poor product. But PB was not the only organization that had their hands on this project. Major decisions for such a project are made by many organizations with various unaligned goals in mind. In addition, these decisions are made within the confines of budgeted financial and temporal limitations. So first, focusing on the developer alone places far too much responsibility on them. Second, attempting to accomplish more than is feasible within a known set of constraints will result in a poor product. As such, I think it is safe to say that this screw up was not entirely PB's fault, and the poor quality is not due to a lack of talent but to poor decision making instead.

My complaints about the game are not attempts to deprive you of your enjoyment. Instead they are requests that we all get something a little better next time so everyone can enjoy it.

[curious]

i agree with you lost number as you bring up many good points, but i think poor is a little harsh. i do appreciate your level of understanding as well. they took a much larger leap in technology though as compared to 1 and 2, so doing what they hoped for may not have been realistic this time around. hopefully now we can see the next 5 years spent on repairing the palace and making it even more grand. besides they needed to make some mistakes so we don't think they are immortal gods right?

[lostnumber]

Perhaps poor was too hard, I mean I did play it for nearly 80 hours. I really do have high hopes for the expansion packs, which by Gorath's estimates should be available in about a year. Before that though, I am just waiting for a few more patches to be released before I dive in again. I do plan on getting an enjoyable return on this investment. As far as learning lessons goes it is obvious that PB has taken much from this experience, I just wonder how the other parties involved took it. Does anyone know what PB has on their horizon after G3 sets in the west?

I'm not a fan of senseless fighting either, that is why I come to this forum. An impassioned exchange of views is not wasteful if an understanding reached. With that said I think I will soon be ready to lay my grievances to rest and finally enjoy the game as best I can, just after a few more patches are released...

[ToddMcF2002]

You know I call it like I see it - positive or negative. Feel free to disagree - its all friendly discussion - but don't expect me to temper my comments while you make vague accusations of trolling as you hide behind a pretense of politic friendliness. Afterall, the forums are here to discuss issues just like these - not just to pander to blind fan loyalty.

[txa1265]

You know I call it like I see it - positive or negative. Feel free to disagree - its all friendly discussion - but don't expect me to temper my comments while you make vague accusations of trolling as you hide behind a pretense of politic friendliness. Afterall, the forums are here to discuss issues just like these - not just to pander to blind fan loyalty.

That's right - if you disagree let him know ... check the helmet, he's ready for imcoming missles!

[ToddMcF2002]

Speaking of being positive - look at all the backlash I get for liking PoR2? See? It gets me nowhere ;)

[lostnumber]

I'm probably going to feel stupid for asking this, but who's talking to who here?

[txa1265]

Speaking of being positive - look at all the backlash I get for liking PoR2? See? It gets me nowhere ;)

I didn't think you got backlash ... it was just that very few people could believe you liked that - I got that for my (relatively speaking) positive review (6/10) of Dungeon Lords ...

[curious]

if you meant me i was reffering to people like viking beserker, not you or anyone else. and i make no apologies for 'trying' to be a pacifist, with the obvious exclusion of gaming...but i 'try' there as well.
im not really a fan of anything, but when theres something i enjoy in life i try to unravel its beauty and complexity as well as the thoughts of its makers. to this i put faith and loyality in yes. but these things/people in life are few for me and its good to have something to believe in...at least bon jovi(who i have no loyality or faith in) agrees with me

[JDR13]

Let's get back on topic guys.

About the demo... I know that you can't die during the opening battle, but are there other places where you're supposed to be immortal? I was just in the caves near the rebel camp fighting some lizards and they didn't seem to be able to kill me for some reason. A bug perhaps?

Also, how did Gorn know where the rebel camp was?

[curious]

your right jdr13, i was going to suggest maybe we should splinter this thread into one into the off-topic forum for further discussion.
i haven't played the demo but maybe since it is one of the first beast quests you can get maybe they made 'easier' so if you go straight to the rebel camp

[curious]

...from following gorn. its strange though for sure. i do recall in this and previous gothics at least once being hit by a hostile and not dying. i think if you get hit for the exact number of life points you have left it knocks you unconscious. the odds of this occurring though are quite small. possibly this is what happened though?

[Thaurin]

Well…from what I have been reading, it’s a lot more than just “some people”. I would say “most people”.

Really, this is an exaggeration. I've read both tons of people that are saying that they love the game and people that say they hate it. The same was true for Oblivion, which release I followed as closely as Gothic 3's. I'm not sure if this is a trend or if it's always been this way, but there will be a lot of people screaming about how they hate stuff in every case. I've already compared it to the Lord of the Rings movies and puritists that decried the transition from the book.

There really aren't any hard numbers on what percentages "hate" the game versus the ones that "love" the game. The opinions are skewed in any case; those that are "disgusted" by it and "love it to bits" are both extreme in their views. Most people just want to try a nice game and have an average opinion of it. Just like any other game.

If a game is poorly designed or rushed to market…especially when comparing it to its predecessors…who is at fault? Certainly Not the consumers!! The only power a consumer has over a product…is with the all mighty dollar. If a product is bad and everyone goes out and buys it anyway…then what incentive is there for the producers of said product, to make a better product.

Such a capitalist remark. Trust the Americans to come forward with that one! Me, I bought it because I wanted the game. I took a gamble, but it was a present for myself. I don't think of "my dollars" as a reward for the developers or publishers, but because I wanted to buy myself something nice. And I got it, too. While not flawless, it did provide me with my money's worth-- even more so than Oblivion, which I put down after some 15 hours of play. I do intend to pick that one up, though.

On the other hand, of course I hope that the developers and publishers have the best of intentions and they same love of the Gothic franchise as I and many others do. I have no reason to believe that all they care about is money. Of course, money is always an object when you need to invest tons of it in such a huge project.

If the system is not what people expect or of poor design…again comparing it to its predecessors…then what good is it. Quantity does not make up for poor quality.

I read many people's opinions about the combat system. It seems so-so to a lot of them, mostly because of some balance problems or bugs, but the basics seem to be all right. The thing is, most people hated the combat of the previous Gothics; it's one of the reason that it didn't do that well in the grand scheme of things. Of course, I loved it to death as did many other fans, but one of the biggest complaints by most people was the controls and the combat system. So what were they to do? Cater to the minority? The new system surely isn't as mainstream as most new games and while it may have its flaws, I do believe that it has much more potential than most people give it credit for.

I have done a lot of reading on peoples comments and views of G3 and the masses are not happy.

Again, I've read both sides of the coin. When Oblivion came out, their forums were flooded with people that complained about various aspects of the game. Even so, it became a huge hit. So who are these masses that are not happy about anything? There are many people that do enjoy it, but who are the most vocal? You should take a look at some of the MMORPG communities. ;)

i hardly think the sword fighting in gothic 1 and 2 is what made the game.
Maybe in and of itself…no. But it certainly played a major role. So much so that it sparked major discussions in the forum in one form or another.

Mostly because it was a controversial combat system. It was a huge learning curve and even then, many people never got to like it. Only a smart portion, relatively, of the fans grew to like it. Even a lot of the Gothic fans admit they didn't like the controls or combat system. I read a lot of people's opinions that said they liked the game a lot, if not for the crappy combat. To me, it was perfect, especially when mapped to a gamepad, but that doesn't mean most people liked the way it worked.

If you read “most” of the threads concerning this issue, then you would not be making this statement.

Again I will say that "most" is not accurate. From what I've read, it's about 50/50. As controversial as the original games.

[JDR13]

...from following gorn. its strange though for sure. i do recall in this and previous gothics at least once being hit by a hostile and not dying. i think if you get hit for the exact number of life points you have left it knocks you unconscious. the odds of this occurring though are quite small. possibly this is what happened though?

No... a lizard was knocking me down multiple times and I should have been dead but I just kept getting back up. My life gauge was empty when I got knocked down, but after I got up it would replenish itself by a small amount.

I know what you mean though about getting hit for the exact amount of life points you have. That happened to me a few times in Gothic 1&2.

[JDR13]

Another question

Doesn't it seem odd how weak the npc's are in this game compared to the previous Gothic games?

For instance... in the caves near the rebel camp I got a Goblin to follow me to the edge of the camp. He was immediately attacked by at least 6 rebels. there were 3 or 4 fighers bashing him as well as a couple of archers firing arrows at the same time. Despite the overwelming odds, that Goblin lasted for almost a full minute before they finally brought him down.
I personally think this is a bug. There's no way the npc's should be that weak.

[curious]

actually i think this is something to do with scaling. imagine all npcs/monsters with a set scale, that is low. now if scaling is only applied to you, so that it does more damage to you and depending on your stats you to it, imagine taking away the scale factor when 2 npcs are fighting each other. they will do less damage as there stats are not 'pumped' up to face you.

this was actually my biggest worry going into gothic 3 was the issue of scaling. it was one of the many things about oblivion i disliked, along with continous spawning which i hate in every game that has it (save system shock 2). but i was amazed how i barely noticed it at all in gothic 3 and both character types i have created have not been overwhelmed. i imagine if there was no scaling i would have got slaughter when i opted to 'do' nordmar before varant in my first game as a warrior hunter.

[JDR13]

I understand what you're saying but it shouldn't take 5-6 rebel fighters more than a few seconds to kill a single goblin.

btw, System Shock 2 is one of my all time favorite games. Glad to see you enjoyed it.

[curious]

me too. bioshock is the only game i've ever looked forward to more than a gothic game...now there is some high expectations.

[Corwin]

Remember, in G3, you are NOT a noob!! You're an experienced campaigner. Trust me, you will die quickly once you get past the opening section. They may have modified it some for the demo as well. Having said that, I do agree that most of the NPC's are weak at fighting everything (but me sometimes :) ). I remember killing 3 skeletons while 3-4 NPC's struggled with 1!! We all agree that there are some balance issues with the game, and PB have said they are addressing them.

PS, SS1 is better than SS2 IMO!!

[A2D]

Hi guys, downloaded the demo (Seems to be Version 1.9.2XXXX) How does the performance compare to the retail version? The graphics seem great but I get these awful 3 second stalls which is why I'm leaning towards buying Neverwinter Nights 2. (Assuming that runs fine as well) I've got 1GB of RAM, using a 7900 Go GS

After the load stutter, the combat seemed fun (Although, right click spam is far too effective) I don't know how the combat progresses, but I loved G1's combat and the timing needed.

I also didn't seem to encounter problems with beasts which I've heard so much about. Wolves, scavengers etc. seemed to go peacefully :biggrin:

Haven't really gotten into the demo so can't comment on story, but the main thing holding me back are those loading pauses, they really destroy the experience for me. Running with Medium Textures and Medium Resource Cache as well...

[Corwin]

You have a patched version, so the beasties are reasonable. Your 1gig is the reason for the stutter, especially in the opening sequence; you need to use some of the tweaks in another thread!!

[A2D]

You have a patched version, so the beasties are reasonable. Your 1gig is the reason for the stutter, especially in the opening sequence; you need to use some of the tweaks in another thread!!
Haha, I done the so called 1GB RAM tweaks (Didn't help much) but the Visual Tweaks were great.

I then decided to set the Resource Cache to High and the game is completely playable now! (Other than the odd pause when entering a new area)

Having a great time with the demo now, going to have to get money together for both NWN2 and Gothic 3!

[Thaurin]

I'll have to put my original .ini files back one day. I can't even remember what it was like before. :D I wonder, why wouldn't Piranha bytes have made these tweaks, maybe depending on the detected system configuration? It was the same with Oblivion. That could run a lot better with some tweaks. There must be a reason that they don't do it (other than lack of time/polish).

[Corwin]

Glad everything is working for you now!!