Good, old RPGs?

[red120]

Looking for something old enough to play on a work computer, that can be run windowed.

Was playing Monster's Den 2 lately, a flash game, and it was really fun.. but beat that twice already, and it's getting boring. I don't really care about great graphics, but would like something a better than ASCII art..

MM6 was really fun, but couldn't get it to work on this box.

[dteowner]

What was the problem with MM6? Simply too much for your rig, or not enough to run windowed? I ask because it doesn't get too much simpler than that for a game that was designed to work with Windows.

[Gorath]

Did you try the Spiderweb games?

[vanedor]

I had problems too running MM6 under WinXP but no such problem anymore with Vista.

Good old rpg? Baldur's Gate 1 et 2, Falllout 1 & 2,

[Dasale]

DOSBox can run most (all?) game in a window so just pick among best old dos stuff and run it through DOSBox and you have your new game windowed. :)

[dteowner]

If he's got an ancient rig, DOSBox might not run, right?

[Dasale]

I didn't knew that, that's probably right but that depends how ancient it is and for possible CPU problem, that could also depends of the game. If it runs XP or Vista it shouldn't be that old.

[purpleblob]

BG2!!! :D (I bet everyone expected me to say this... ;))

[red120]

Oh.. it's not ancient, it's decent, running Windows 2000. No modern games like Morrowind though.

MM6 had some conflicts with my system, it wouldn't work. But definitely, the system has the technology to run it.

The Geneforge series was recommended to me, but up until Geneforge 4, it still can't be run in a window.

DOSbox works, yes! I spent most of today playing Oregon Trail.

I just might play BG2 again, yeah... but I've done that quite a few times I think >_<

[wolfing]

Betrayal at Krondor
Wizardry 8

[Zaleukos]

Darklands might run in Dosbox on that kind of hardware.

[JemyM]

If not even MM6 works, then I doubt anything 3d will work. We are talking about a 3d game from 1998... Maybe you should look at 2d RPG's from 1990-1997 then, however RPG was a genré that up to Baldur's Gate 1998 was considered "dead".

[HiddenX]

Search in this subforum for good ol' rpgs, for example:

Top 10 crpgs of all time (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727)

I always recommend the best underdog (it was released in the "dead"-era, that JemyM mentioned) of all time: Albion (http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/428/Albion.html)

[VPeric]

Evil Islands (we talked about it here (http://rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5165&highlight=evil+islands)) is a pretty good game if you're in for a bit of action RPG, and isn't too demanding. You could also try Anachronox, which runs on a modified Quake 2 engine, so should be ok too (it's not first person, don't worry).

[Dasale]

If DOSBox runs, there's the classics but perhaps you haven't yet played them, Ultima Underworld and Dungeon Master. I played them not so long ago, almost a replay for UW. Both have a great gameplay and should run quite fine in a DOSBox window.

[rune_74]

I really tried to like Ultima underworld again after all teh years but it did not age very well at all...

[Dasale]

For the negative points of Ultima Underworld and perhaps old points I see only:

The graphic are very low definition.
The mouse controls are unusual and even after training they are uneasy during fighting (but top for exploration).
Only one spell ready during fights is weird to modern players but that works well for the fights design and depth.
Have to learn the runes that build a spell is a old design not comfortable.


For the good points, there's much more:

Here is funny exploration of 3D level design, most modern CRPG don't know make 3D levels as much 3D, they think too much to implement a (false) realism instead of tuning the 3D design for the gameplay.
The puzzles and the exploration are excellent, it is full of interesting puzzles that require some thinking and observation but rarely (never?) fail into a too high difficulty.
The fight controls are difficult but the fights are very fun and with a good depth, very few modern first person RPG does as well in term of depth.
There's no abuse of repetitive fights and random fights unlike in many older and modern RPG.
The story is nice, not very good but a solid one. It's implementation is very interesting, it is very well merged to the exploration.
If the story isn't top, the dialogs are excellent, very well merge of mixing history information, game hints and practical information, plus no too long dialog here.
The class system is a good one, it let choices to the player and is diversified.
The magic system is interesting, finding the runes is more fun than just pickup a spell in a list, its usage is for exploration and for fights.
The automap is very well done and it's very useful that it allows write notes on it, most modern RPG forgot to implement such a basic feature.


Very few CRPG have a so well design gameplay, modern or old. I haven't played UW2 but some people said me that it is even better.

[Zaleukos]

I played through UU2 in Dosbox earlier this year. It is closer to a modern RPG and less of a dungeon crawl than UU1. UU1 turned out less playable (I tried starting it as I never beat the game back in my DOS days) and I gave up on it.

The controls feel very clunky on a modern machine, and the presentation with a small low-res window doesnt help much. I think real time games like UU age worse than turn based games such as the Goldbox or Darksun series for this reason, even if they originally were better.

[Dasale]

I should really try UU2. For UU1 it's gameplay is quite modern (and great). For example there are many good puzzles but none are as tough that some you can find in Dungeon Master. Also UU1 mix quite well NPC you talk with with dungeon crawling, in same level friendly area, more neutral area and dangerous area. Ha well. :)

I wonder why you couldn't play UU1 when you seem succeed for UU2. The controls during fights are certainly what could block modern players but UU2 has probably the same set of controls. For graphics well if you can play some old gold box stuff, then you don't need fancy graphics. Can't you play an ASCII game for example? I wonder how the remake on the console snes has been managed, particularly how controls has been adapted.

[blatantninja]

I really tried to like Ultima underworld again after all teh years but it did not age very well at all...

I couldn't afford it when it first came out. I picked up both of them in the late 90's and tried to play them, but the graphics were just too bad for me. I might try again, as I consider it something I really missed out on.

[Zaleukos]

I wonder why you couldn't play UU1 when you seem succeed for UU2. The controls during fights are certainly what could block modern players but UU2 has probably the same set of controls. For graphics well if you can play some old gold box stuff, then you don't need fancy graphics. Can't you play an ASCII game for example? I wonder how the remake on the console snes has been managed, particularly how controls has been adapted.

Try it. If you dont mind the engine and graphics it is a remarkably good game that stands up well to more modern RPGs in writing and puzzles that actually make sense:) Apparently the story is better if you've played Ultima VII (or is it VI? I havent played either) as it takes place shortly after one of those games and you run across old acquantainces like Iolo.

You are right that the controls are the same. I cant quite put the finger on what difference that made UU2 playable (with some cursing on my part over the controls) but not the predecessor (as said I've played both back in the DOS games, but failed to complete UU1 because I had missed some critical puzzles on the way down).

UU2 does have slightly better graphics, but otherwise they should be very similar technologically. Normally I dont care about graphics (I can play Wrath of the demon or the early goldbox without being disturbed by the looks of the game), so I think it is something about the fluidity of the controls.

I do think UU1 has more areas where you have to jump though, and that is a nightmare for me with that engine.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I tried UU1 early this year ... To me, the "window" was just too small. it was to me as if I couldn't see anything - or at least not enough at all.

[Dasale]

I tried UU1 early this year ... To me, the "window" was just too small. it was to me as if I couldn't see anything - or at least not enough at all.

I have a trick for you, perhaps if you light a torch in the game you'll see better! :p

Zaleukos: For sure UU2 is on my list, not many people played it but most seems agree it was better than UU1/

[Alrik Fassbauer]

... Or maybe I should take my sunglasses off while playing. :p ;)

[GothicGothicness]

I do think UU1 has more areas where you have to jump though, and that is a nightmare for me with that engine.

I remmember the jumping I would jump and my friend would press the button to pickup the rune we were jumping for , great times. I always liked the controls of the ultima games. Both UU1 and UU2 were great games, I spent much time on both, and there were many surprising story twists, part of the story also fits with U6 / U7 :party2: :party2: here is for RG's new project Ultima Forever World Space Travler Edition!

[Zaleukos]

I always hated the jumping in those games, even back in the DOS days when I found them very much playable overall:p A lot of the jumping is between tall pillars close to the ceiling, and it feels like your character hits the ceiling and has his jump disrupted if you dont time it right.

[Dasale]

I always hated the jumping in those games, even back in the DOS days when I found them very much playable overall:p A lot of the jumping is between tall pillars close to the ceiling, and it feels like your character hits the ceiling and has his jump disrupted if you dont time it right.
The jumping controls was quite fine and not long to learn, but what you complain is the game was using jumping. Well I agree this design has flaws, but there wasn't so much jumping and most was quite easy. Finally before any jump you could just save, it's quite fast to save/reload.

Using jumps had plus, it means more subtle level progression and that's the good point about jumping. Most often you wasn't facing a forced jump but had to observe a bit and analyze the 3D environment to detect that eventually a jump could be a solution.

EDIT: Today, CRPG don't know design good progression, designers should play UU to learn few lessons.:)

[Zaleukos]

Yup, it's not really the controls (which are far from the worst jumping controls, that accolade goes to Might and Magic VI-VIII, games where the jumping puzzles are truly abominal), more the level design. The difference between these two setups bugged me a great deal:
_________

|
X X

vs
_____________
|
X X
X X

With | the player, __ ceiling, and X ground. The first jump is trivial, the second mighty frustrating. I did end up doing a lot of save and reload in these situations, but that took some fun of a game. I dont mind puzzles where you need to think about how to get to a destination, but I can think of quite a few instances where the path was quite obvious and hitting the ceiling was what kept me from reaching my destination without reloads. I much prefer the jumping solution of Gothic/Gothic 2 or even Ultima IX.

EDIT: UU2 has at least a few rooms that are like the second scenario:)

[Dasale]

Yup, it's not really the controls (which are far from the worst jumping controls, that accolade goes to Might and Magic VI-VIII, games where the jumping puzzles are truly abominal), more the level design. The difference between these two setups bugged me a great deal:
_________

|
X X

vs
_____________
|
X X
X X

With | the player, __ ceiling, and X ground. The first jump is trivial, the second mighty frustrating. I did end up doing a lot of save and reload in these situations, but that took some fun of a game. I dont mind puzzles where you need to think about how to get to a destination, but I can think of quite a few instances where the path was quite obvious and hitting the ceiling was what kept me from reaching my destination without reloads. I much prefer the jumping solution of Gothic/Gothic 2 or even Ultima IX.

EDIT: UU2 has at least a few rooms that are like the second scenario:)
Well with no challenge there is few fun. :biggrin: Ok I see what you mean and I think UU1 has few jumps like that but not that tough. I agree that this sort of jumps should be avoided.

I don't remember anything noteworthy in G2 about jumps and progression, not some cases where you have to think to find what to do and discover that eventually a jumps could be useful. That's where jumps are cool in UU1 otherwise jumps are bad design if it's just about doing a jump.

[Zaleukos]

G1 was probably better for the kind of progression you talk about:) I was more thinking of the technical solution to the jumping action than the level design which is what you are thinking of (and there I agree that the UUs have very nicely crafted levels overall compared to most modern games). Both the first two Gothics and Ultima IX have automatic jumping, if the destination is close enough and in focus the character would always manage the jump.

[Dasale]

G1 was probably better for the kind of progression you talk about:) I was more thinking of the technical solution to the jumping action than the level design which is what you are thinking of (and there I agree that the UUs have very nicely crafted levels overall compared to most modern games). Both the first two Gothics and Ultima IX have automatic jumping, if the destination is close enough and in focus the character would always manage the jump.

Woo now I remind, G2 NOTR has at least one very weird and difficult jump despite an auto feature, no UU1 jump was as weird. Ok that NOTR jump wasn't fully required if you had a save back.

EDIT: Ok I agree auto jump is a nice feature (I had forget that point in G2).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I remember jumping in Zanzarah, for example.

All in 3D and onto pillars that are surrounded lethal depths of darkness.

I don't remember, but I think some of them were even moving ...

[GothicGothicness]

Even jumping is not fun in todays games :( You just click and make the jump never any challange. That said the kind of jumping in UU is more the jumping of an action game than suitable for an RPG.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

In Commander Keen, jumping was a challenge.

Sometimes, one had to catch the last possible moment until a platform moved away, on which the character was standing (the young Commander Keen himself).

It was also the very first game - if I remember correctly - with which the character could pull himself up from a grabbed edge or cliff.

[JDR13]

Woo now I remind, G2 NOTR has at least one very weird and difficult jump despite an auto feature, no UU1 jump was as weird. Ok that NOTR jump wasn't fully required if you had a save back.

EDIT: Ok I agree auto jump is a nice feature (I had forget that point in G2).

What jump in G2 are you refering to? I'm guessing it's the one in the New World (Jharkendar) where you have to jump over the broken bridge to grab the magic bow.

Also, what do you mean by "auto" jump?

[Dasale]

What jump in G2 are you refering to? I'm guessing it's the one in the New World (Jharkendar) where you have to jump over the broken bridge to grab the magic bow.

Also, what do you mean by "auto" jump?
Auto jump because you don't have to use a jump key to jump. You are almost right it's this place but not this jump. In fact first time I get there I felt (deliberately) from the mountains to reach the area. It's the jump to return back that I found quite more difficult than any UU1 jump despite the auto jump feature. But if I remember well G2 has also a jump key but eventually it's better to use the auto jump for some jumps.

About jumps in G2 did you know you could enter in chapter 2 area when it's still chapter 1 or that you can enter in the monastery during chapter 1 even if you aren't a mage? Jumps allowed that.

G2 had some great exploring stuff like that, walking on the rope to enter the ship was another of those great stuff.

[JDR13]

I'm confused. What auto jump feature are you refering to? I always had to hit a key(or mouse button) to jump in Gothic 1\2\3.

[skavenhorde]

I'm confused as well, what is auto jump in Gothic?

I remember if you jumped you could move faster and out run creatures, but you needed athletics (or some other named skill can't remember which one it was that made you jump farther). You could essentially *autojump* from one place to another much faster than walking, but you still had to hit the space button almost as soon as you landed. So it's not really autojumping, you still have to keep pushing a button at certain points.

[Dasale]

Guys I think you just played Gothic 2 without to ever discover the auto jump feature. Myself I discovered it only after the place mentioned above, to return back from it.

So yes there's a jump key but also you can run to a cliff and you'll jump automatically if there is a reason to and without to use the jump key.

Those sort of auto jumps are useful to maximize the time you wait before to jump. Clearly to enter in monastery or in chapter 2 area when you are still in chapter 1 and not a mage you couldn't use this auto jump.

Eventually this auto jump has been added with NOTR, I never played G2 vanilla.