I've tried, but I just can't stomach the older classics

[Stabwound]

I first started playing CRPGs in the mid 90's, with games like Dark Sun and Might and Magic 4/5, so I'm pretty accustomed to those. I never really played anything older than that, because they just didn't interest me.

Lately I've been trying to play some of the early CRPGs, and I just can't. I've wanted to try the Goldbox games for a while, but I started the first Krynn game and it's just way to archaic to the point where it isn't fun. Same thing with the early Wizardry, Might and Magic, Ultimas, etc. I'm not hung up on graphics, but there's just a point where it becomes annoying to play the games because everything is just so clunky. The necessity to manually map areas is also one of the major killers... I just can't bring myself to do it.

Does anyone else feel the same way? I'm kinda disappointed in myself, but... oh well.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I don't play areas where I've got to map areas either.
Therefore, I don't play many of the older games.

I've once tried some of the oldest M&M games, but sorry, I couldn't stand the graphics. With the later games I had no problems.

But all in all I fear it partly has something to do with being used to something. If you aren't a small farmer in the the Andes in south america, you will have many, many problems to acclimate yourself with their rough life. No current, for example. Although the amount of cables is slowly spreading.

In a way this is similar with these games: They require some sort of ... "hardened stomach" in order to be able to digest them.

We are so much used to things like an automap. It is handy, a great tool, but in fact it's luxury. One could play a game entirely without, but we are so much used to it that we will soon find ourselves lost within the game and complaining.

Same goes for so many small things that make our lives so much easier without us noticing them.

Let's take street lamps in real life, for example. Just try to imagine a world without street lamps. And no highways at all. And many more and much bigger woods than today.

Our saying to "put a candle into the window" is hardly understood by us nowadays.

Centuries ago, it was essential for "coming home". Only a light seen over several kilometres within otherwise complete darkness (no street lamps ! no streets at all !) can guide someone safely home.
And then there are what my disctionary translates as "ghost lights" or a "will o'whisp". Considering that a candle in a window in otherwise COMPLETE darkness is the ONLY "beacon" guiding home, such a "ghost light" is actually very dangerous, because it not only lets people miss the way, but even worse, they make people get stranded within a moor or a swamp ! Misguided people might go drowning !

This is just an example of how much well, "luxury" influences our lives without us actually noticing them.

Same goes for things like an automap.

[JemyM]

The CRPG's of the 80'ies doesn't make much sense to me. They pretty much requires you to read a hefty manual to understand them and the system limitations doesn't offer much narrative for storytelling. Actually, there aren't any games from the early 80'ies at all which I would be able to recommend now. Visually, Dungeon Master (1987) was stunning compared to the competition. WonderBoy III (1989) is a platform RPG, but it's still a really fun game.

Things started to improve during the 90'ies, 1991 in particular with titles as Eye of the Beyonder and Ultima VII, both taking a huge leap from previous generations. RPG's kept improving from there, up to the second half of the 90'ies in which they started to experiment with 3d, which in my opinion looks butt-ugly today. The RPG rennaissance begun 97 with Fallout and later Baldur's Gate, that still used a 2d engine. If they hadn't I doubt they would have been as sucessful as they were. With few exceptions, 3d games didn't begun to look appealing to me until 2000 and beyond.

If you want to look for "old treasures", I say focus on the 90'ies and beyond.

[zakhal]

I don't play areas where I've got to map areas either.
Therefore, I don't play many of the older games.

I use "strategy guides" for old games. I consider it very much essential if you want to play through old games - lots of old games. Othervice I would propably die of old age before finishing even 1/10 of them.

Ive played through and enjoyed i.e wizardry 1-3, ultima akalabeth, pool of radiance, hillsfar and wasteland. I didnt use guides all the time - only when I got stuck or needed som maps.

The 90s games are of course considerable better. I like the way they look even - nice alternative to the modern 3D holocaust.

[JemyM]

I use "strategy guides" for old games. I consider it very much essential if you want to play through old games - lots of old games. Othervice I would propably die of old age before finishing even 1/10 of them.

I agree on that one.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

My version of the EOB Trilogy comes with maps of the first few levels.

Even with them, I had great difficulties ...

I just assume from that time that I'm just not good in orienting myself within tunnels and dungeons alone.

[JemyM]

My version of the EOB Trilogy comes with maps of the first few levels.
Even with them, I had great difficulties ...
I just assume from that time that I'm just not good in orienting myself within tunnels and dungeons alone.

I actually played those with the cluebooks... I guess that's an advantage. Those games are quite hard too. I remember there were point of no returns in the 2nd game, so if you took those routes, you wouldn't be able to return.

[Dasale]

About graphics, are you unable to play ascii games? For me it's not a problem even if graphics at any level can be a plus, they are never a requirement. For a game without automapping I would tend to agree that it's a "no go". But I played recently two games, Dungeon Master and Citadel Adventure of the Crystal Keep.

DM has ugly graphics and no automap. I surprised myself by being able to play a game without automap. I used Calc grid to quickly map but also didn't map each step but map series of room after have explore them more freely. In Citadel I map only few levels with a similar method until I found in game map tool and soon after auto mapping trick but also for the last two levels where the automap is disabled. Both games had been great fun time and mapping never a burden but often a tool to think about puzzle, take a pause and write notes.

A recent game bring back manual mapping, it's Etrian Odyssey to make it a central part of its gameplay. I played a large part of this game and if the in game map tool are well done and the whole works well with the two screens of the DS, I don't think this really bring a lot to the gameplay but also it didn't detract it. In fact it is almost automapping because you have an option to automap ground where you walk and it's up to you to add the details, doors, objects, walls, and so on.

One point is that I couldn't map anymore on paper as I had to do in game like Pool Of Radiance. Using a calc just beside the game screen running in a window emulator is a much more fast and comfortable method particularly because both can fit at same time on my 30" monitor, it's a detail that helps. :)

[GothicGothicness]

I love some of the old classics for the C64, I do not think the graphics was that horrible as some people say at all. Especially bards tale and the M&M games, but there were also many other great C64 rpg's which remains fun up to this day. I just which my disk drive did not start to eat disks for breakfast :(

[zakhal]

One point is that I couldn't map anymore on paper as I had to do in game like Pool Of Radiance. Using a calc just beside the game screen running in a window emulator is a much more fast and comfortable method particularly because both can fit at same time on my 30" monitor, it's a detail that helps. :)
I have noticed the same when I have i.e gamebanshee "strategy guide", pdf game manuals (gold box adventure journals) and emulator all open side-by-side on my 52". Very handy. :)

[Prime Junta]

The first cRPG I played was probably Ultima III (unless you count rogue and NetHack).

I tried replaying it a while back. I gave up after about 30 minutes.

As you said, it's too clunky to be worth the bother. For me, the games worth replaying start somewhere around the Infinity Engine, and even so I haven't been able to get beyond Candlekeep with Baldur's Gate. (BG2 I did finish, eventually, and I loved PS:T.)

[xSamhainx]

I cant play anything but Nintendo games in the pre-Fallout era.

that's pretty much my gaming epochs, BF (before Fallout) and AF (after Fallout)

[Atrachasis]

It may well be true that user interfaces have undergone some evolution, and that certain interface procedures - i.e., right-clicking for a contextual menu, WASD movements in 1st person games - have become something of a standard, so that their absence in older games begins to bother us, and you retrospectively shake your head in puzzlement at why RPG developers back then felt it necessary to offer up 26 different commands to interact with your environment, when "USE" would have done for 20 of them. Nonetheless, I would not lay the blame entirely at the feet of the games, but of ourselves as well. Is it possible that even we who cut our teeth on four-color 8x8 sprites have less patience these days? Or that we simply had more time on our hands back then (that one is certainly a Yes in my case)?

But given some patience, and some time to spare, I feel that the threshold isn't higher today than it was back then, and the reward often worth it. Last year, I used one such opportunity to catch up on some of the earlier Ultimas that I had missed back in the days by playing U IV and U V for the first time (back then, I had joined the series at VI). Admittedly, combat was clunky, and I mapped the dungeons by peering at gems and taking screenshots of the DOSBox window... but found them immensely playable nonetheless, and leaving the last room behind to come face to face with the Codex itself was undoubtedly the most immersive RPG experience in many years - after all, immersion has more to do with the imagination than with the eyes.

[skavenhorde]

Nostalgia :)

I don't mind them at all because I grew up first with Intellivision then C64 then Dos. It takes a little getting used to at first but the memory kicks in and I remember why I loved these games so much in the first place. Admittindly, I still have problems with mapping and I can't seem to find the old yellow graph paper anywhere :(

By far the best games next to the Ultimas were Starflight 1 and 2. Anyone who can stomach the graphics should try out one of the best sandbox space games ever. I find myself replaying those more than any of the others.

@Atrachasis Great idea using dosbox screenshots, I didn't even consider that when I replayed. I'll have to do that next time, thanks.

[txa1265]

Well, I am working on Betrayal at Krondor and Might & Magic II a little at a time, and while they are certainly klunky, there is also a certain charm. I don't know if I will ever finish them, though ...

[skavenhorde]

Well, I am working on Betrayal at Krondor and Might & Magic II a little at a time, and while they are certainly klunky, there is also a certain charm. I don't know if I will ever finish them, though ...

I don't know about M&M II, but Betrayal at Krondor is pretty long. Especially if you are like me and have to look in every nook and cranny.

Just a friendly hint, write down what people ask you to do or you'll forget :) They'll send you all over the map.

[GothicGothicness]

I found it funny, there are very few new games I could enjoy! They are too easy to learn and too easy to play and do not hold much challange neither do they have much mystery or excitement, now I hear people saying exactly the same reasons to why they love the new games, but cannot stand the old classics.

Betrayal at Krondor
Is superior to most new games, with a much better plot, exploration, great riddles and turn-based combat, even the music is better.

[fatBastard()]

I found it funny, there are very few new games I could enjoy! They are too easy to learn and too easy to play and do not hold much challange neither do they have much mystery or excitement, now I hear people saying exactly the same reasons to why they love the new games, but cannot stand the old classics.
This is one way to look at it though I have another. I guess it depends on how/why we play games. I mostly play games for the experience, not for the actual gameplay. What I remember from Baldur's Gate is the story of the Bhaal spawn, not the specifics of the engine. The reason I even attempt to redo a tough encounter over and over is because I want to find out what happens next, not because I enjoy it (in fact I HATE frustratingly difficult encounters and if the Witcher hadn't been as captivating as it was, I would have tossed the game in the trash by the end of Chapter 1).

With this approach to gaming I find just as much enjoyment in the games of today as I did in the games of yesterday. Sure, there is a lot of crap on the shelves but that was true back then as well however we only remember the good stuff. Sure, a game like PlaneScape:Torment doesn't come along often, but they didn't back then either.

Is superior to most new games, with a much better plot, exploration, great riddles and turn-based combat, even the music is better.
I liked "Betrayal at Krondor" but in all fairness I think your nostalgia is making you a bit biased in this case. The plot was good but it had several things going for it that many games don't. For one thing the developers had the fully fleshed out world of Midkemia including the backstory for the setting to use that noone else had touched before. Secondly they had access to the author who helped them with the story (a story which Raymond E. Feist later turned into a novel). That, no doubt, helped with the plot and the details of the story telling.

I don't see how the exploration was any better than, let's say Morrowind or Oblivion in terms of secondary content/sidequests. In size of the secondary content, both of the latter games far surpasses BaK.

There is no doubt, however, that puzzles and riddles in games have changed over the years. Their role has become smaller and thy are less important nowadays but their shape and use has changed as well. In the old days you would often get word riddles or other puzzles like the ones you can find in magazines alongside the crossword puzzles but that was the only way they could make them. Today there are entire levels in games like Tomb Raider that are designed as one huge puzzle. With the introduction of 3D graphics the textual aspects of the riddle/puzzle component become more or less obsolete. At least in the eyes of the publishers paying the developers to make the games. :roll:

The music is a matter of taste. The music in BaK was great but better than in games of today where we're talking about real instruments and not midi impersonations? ... not in my opinion.

[GothicGothicness]

I don't see how the exploration was any better than, let's say Morrowind or Oblivion in terms of secondary content/sidequests. In size of the secondary content, both of the latter games far surpasses BaK.


It was better in BaK simple because there was interesting things to find, I explored forever in Obl. / Morrow. without finding anything of interest or that fit into the story, in BaK everything fit into the overall story, and you could learn more about the world and why things were as they were, etc etc. What I found in Obl. was randomly generated dungeons of no interest what-so-ever to me, in morrowind it was better but still not so interesting and story intensive as in BaK. I meant the quality of the exploration not the quantity.

play games. I mostly play games for the experience, not for the actual gameplay.

Does it not mean, that publishers could skip the gameplay and just make movies? or interactive stories instead?

The music is a matter of taste. The music in BaK was great but better than in games of today where we're talking about real instruments and not midi impersonations? ... not in my opinion.

I mean the CD version music.

Secondly they had access to the author who helped them with the story

Yes, why not spend some money on an author to help with the story? instead of spending massive amounts of money on technical stuffs and great graphics, just look at fallout 3 ? why not use a part of the budget on a great writer, instead of flying heads and over-the-top violence ? and make it a great classic instead of a decent game. No matter what we think of the game, I think we can all agree that the writing sucks ?

In fact I think you hit the head on the nail, why not hire writers to help on the stories?? in these big budget games???

a good story, lasts forever, and is a memory for life, good graphics is cool until the next game with better graphics is released.

[Maylander]

I started after King's Bounty (1990) with M&M and those games. However, the oldest game I ever replay now though is probably Heroes of Might & Magic (1995). HoMM is not really an RPG though, and the gameplay is not affected or made clumsy as time passes by. The oldest RPG I ever replay is Baldur's Gate from 1998.

By the way, did you know that we just passed the 10 year anniversiry of Baldur's Gate? I had no idea, but I looked it up in wikipedia, and it seems the release date was 30th of November, 1998. Congratulations BG!

I find it odd that we didn't see any articles about it, someone going back to see how it aged after 10 years and such. Maybe writing a new review and comparing it to games today.

The reason why people still play games based on the Infinity Engine without playing older games is quite simple: IE introduced a whole new interface, one that is still in use today (hence it doesn't feel clumsy or slow). Certainly, games today have better textures and what not, but the essence is still the same - character portraits, both click and keymapped menus, spells and so on, hotkeys, etc.

[Zaleukos]

I do replay the Goldbox games, Darklands, and Demons Winter from time to time. The games have simple menu-based interfaces and dungeons that are simple enough that you dont miss the auto-map. The Darksun games are also playable today, even if the low resolution is a bit annoying.

I still think the Goldbox games had a pretty neat and intuitive interface (everything was available in menus that you navigated with the arrow keys), and the turn based fighting is faster than in the Fallouts.

Otherwise I generally agree that old user interfaces can be too clunky to make a game worth the bother... My grievances are mostly with clunky controls (which exist in some modern titles as well) and a general lack of even rudimentary journals. I am too lazy to take notes about the first sets of isntructions given by the questgiver. Lack of automapping is only a problems in games like EotB with large dungeons with repetitive graphics.

[JemyM]

I love some of the old classics for the C64, I do not think the graphics was that horrible as some people say at all. Especially bards tale and the M&M games, but there were also many other great C64 rpg's which remains fun up to this day. I just which my disk drive did not start to eat disks for breakfast :(

When it comes to really old RPG's, I tend to look at MobyGames for which format has the best quality. In the 80'ies, Amiga and Atari ST often had the best graphics back then, making the C64 versions appear very chunky. The earliest PC versions were usually in like four colors (Cyan, White and Purple) which looked terrible. I did have Pools of Radiance on C64, until I drove over one of the disks with my chair.

[Zakhary]

For me it's no trouble, really. Well.. it takes about 15mins during which I have to get used to the clunky interface and pixelated graphics, but it's not that bad, and once it's over I'm always glad I did. I started pc gaming somewhere in the mid 90's. I never use hints or walthroughs.

[JemyM]

Here's some of the series from the early 90'ies that might be worth checking out:
Dark Sun (2 games)
Dungeon Master II
Eye of the Beholder 1-3
Ishar 1-3
Jagged Alliance
Lands of Lore
Might & Magic 4-5 (+ Swords of Xeen)
Quest for Glory (the 2nd was recently remade into VGA)
Stonekeep
Syndicate
Ultima VII & VIII
Ultima Underworld 1 & 2
Wizardry VII
X-Com 1-2

There were plenty of good SNES RPG's from that era too.
Final Fantasy VI, which many consider to be the best of the FF series, were released 1994 on SNES with the title Final Fantasy III. Then Chrono Trigger was released 1995, also that one considered a classic. Then you have Tales of Phantasia (1995) and Secret of Mana 2 (1995) that received fan translations into english.

[blatantninja]

I'm sort of mixed. I replayed Ultima I and Ultima IV a few years ago, and had no problem getting into them at all. It's almost like they are SO archaic, that I my brain doesn't expect anything more than they are.

However, trying to play Ultima VI, when they first started using graphics that actually looked like isometric 3-D representations, as well as the Worlds of Ultima spin offs, has been completely impossible. I WANT to play them, but I just can't get into them. Same with Ultima VII.

I think the problem is that when I remember the older 2-D tileset games, that's exactly what I remember, 2-D basic tilesets. However, when I play the games that started becoming a bit more 'realistic' looking, I remember them awing me with how 'advanced' they were, but when I look at them now, they just look so bad compared to modern games. It really kills me too, because I know there are some real classics out there that I've never played and some classics I'd really like to enjoy the story of again.

[wolfing]

I'm sort of mixed. I replayed Ultima I and Ultima IV a few years ago, and had no problem getting into them at all. It's almost like they are SO archaic, that I my brain doesn't expect anything more than they are.

However, trying to play Ultima VI, when they first started using graphics that actually looked like isometric 3-D representations, as well as the Worlds of Ultima spin offs, has been completely impossible. I WANT to play them, but I just can't get into them. Same with Ultima VII.

I think the problem is that when I remember the older 2-D tileset games, that's exactly what I remember, 2-D basic tilesets. However, when I play the games that started becoming a bit more 'realistic' looking, I remember them awing me with how 'advanced' they were, but when I look at them now, they just look so bad compared to modern games. It really kills me too, because I know there are some real classics out there that I've never played and some classics I'd really like to enjoy the story of again.

I hear you, it's like our brain applies full anti-aliasing and digitally remasters our game memories :)
It's strange, the games haven't changed, we have. I remember when I bought a game I would open it immediately and start reading the manual. I started playing Wiz 7 after I read it and was salivating at the characters I'd use in my party. Nowadays I just put the CD or DVD in and expect the game to be playable without even looking at the manual (guess that happened at around the time they made game manuals just an installation guide, and moved anything interesting to the not included "strategy guide"). I tried playing the original Realms of Arkania games recently, and after failing miserably in my first attempt at a fight, I realized I really needed to read the manual. I swear I'll do it one of these days, in the meantime, I'll play a bit more of King's Bounty

[blatantninja]

The first cRPG I played was probably Ultima III (unless you count rogue and NetHack).

I tried replaying it a while back. I gave up after about 30 minutes.

As you said, it's too clunky to be worth the bother. For me, the games worth replaying start somewhere around the Infinity Engine, and even so I haven't been able to get beyond Candlekeep with Baldur's Gate. (BG2 I did finish, eventually, and I loved PS:T.)

Did you ever try BGTuTu (where you play it in the BG2 engine)? I tried playing the original a while back and found it a bit cumbersome, but playing in TuTu was awesome.

[JemyM]

I hear you, it's like our brain applies full anti-aliasing and digitally remasters our game memories :)

Some similar techniques is actually available in emu's like DOSBox. The following screenshot is taken with a Hq3x filter (top) and scaled 3x (bottom).

http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/ultima6comparison.jpg

[skavenhorde]

The earliest PC versions were usually in like four colors (Cyan, White and Purple) which looked terrible.

You're talking about CGA. I had two games with those graphics, some golf game and Defender of the Crown. I loved the jousting on that game and the catapults. The rest were in EGA which was a lot better. Everything still looked blocky and cartoony (Sierra games) but EGA is still playable today, imo.

When VGA and especially Super VGA hit the market that's when graphics started becoming the focal point of games.

Edit: @JemyM I still like the bottom pic better for the nostalgia effect ;)

[blatantninja]

Some similar techniques is actually available in emu's like DOSBox. The following screenshot is taken with a Hq3x filter (top) and scaled 3x (bottom).

http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/ultima6comparison.jpg

Wow, that's pretty good! I need to read up more on how to apply those filters.

[JemyM]

When VGA and especially Super VGA hit the market that's when graphics started becoming the focal point of games.

Ugly graphics could really pull down a game back then. There aren't many games that managed to get past that problem (the Avernum series comes to mind).

I was thinking about this when it comes to modern 3d gaming. When the 3d craze came along, and it was popular to release games with "3d" added to it's title, I usually responded with "oh no", because 3d in it's early stage looked much worse than 2d. There are early 3d games that look so ugly that I just cannot pull myself together to play them, like the Ravenloft series.

http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/ravenloft.jpg

This is one of the primary reasons the second half of the 90'ies is a "black hole" to me when it comes to searching for forgotten gems. The other reason was the habit of pre-rendered 3d graphics in 2d and FMV movies, neither looked good in 320x200 or 640x480.

After 2000, 3d improved to the stage in which you could actually begin to distinguish what the polygons on screen was supposed to be. Character models started to look unique as their faces were fully modelled in polygons, where as previous games just used textures.

Polygon babe in 1998:
http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/jediknightmysteriesofthesithmarajade.jpg

Polygon babe in 2002:
http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/jediknightiijedioutcast.jpg

Still going forward in a rapid pace during a few years, we eventually reached the point in which the artists set the limit, not the engine nor the hardware. We have so many graphic enchancement techniques that most games doesn't even utilitize them and still they end up good.

[Zakhary]

I played the first Ravenloft quite recently. Really liked it, had this thick menacing atmosphere throughout the game. The graphics were fine. No problem at all. With that one I didn't even have to spend the 15min to adjust.

I would never even concider applying any filters or other mods that mess with the visuals of the original.

I don't know if I'm different somehow, less visual or something.. or if you guys are just a bunch of whining pussies with a 22" LCD screens and expensive graphicscards, but I can honestly say that when it comes to the graphics I really don't care - if the game is good.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I wouldn't be surprised at all, if the industry was just starting to do "remakes" of older games just because the graphics were poor then.

And because of lack of new and innovative ideas.

[zakhal]

Remakes (and mods) are excellent excuses to replay old classics. In the war/strategy games genre they have remade almost all the classics from 90s (thx to matrix games). But thats pretty unique - i.e I cant recall a single remake of truly old rpg....lazarus perhaps but in that case I might still choose to play the original instead. I never played ultima5 that much - only scratched the surface with my friends pc.

Another aspect of playing old games is timetravel. I feel like tourist going back 10-20 years and then suddenly the game looks amazing even though it has no more than pixelated cga/ega graphics. Good douse of imagination might be a requirement. Not all people have enough of that.

To me old games are like reading good books. They just have pictures and animations as an extra and you can actually interact within it.

[blatantninja]

I have a hard time with low polygon 3-D games. I'd much rather play a 2-D game that was at the height of what 2-D is capable of than a 3-D that was at the beginning.

[JemyM]

I don't know if I'm different somehow, less visual or something.. or if you guys are just a bunch of whining pussies with a 22" LCD screens and expensive graphicscards, but I can honestly say that when it comes to the graphics I really don't care - if the game is good.

I do have a 22" CRT monitor with double 8800GTX cards in SLI, but that doesn't mean I am not into classic gaming. I actually have friends asking me what I do get out from playing all those old games. Just this autumn I ran through Golden Axe 1-3 on Genesis.

I have this ongoing goal to beat all lucasarts and sierra adventuregames and I have just the Quest for Glory series to go. I actually beated most wellrated non-sierra/lucasarts adventuregames from the 80/90'ies as well.

Beated Lucasarts games:
* Day of the Tentacle
* Full Throttle
* Grim Fandango
* Indiana Jones 3
* Indiana Jones 4
* Loom
* Maniac Mansion
* Monkey Island 1
* Monkey Island 2
* Monkey Island 3
* Monkey Island 4
* Sam & Max
* The Dig
* Zak McKracken

Beated Sierra games:
* Adventures of Willy Beamish
* Codename Iceman
* Conquests of Camelot: The Search for the Grail
* Conquests of the Longbow: The Legend of Robin Hood
* EcoQuest I
* EcoQuest II
* Freddy Pharkas: Frontier Pharmacist
* Gabriel Knight I
* Gabriel Knight II
* Gabriel Knight III
* Gold Rush
* Heart of China
* Kings Quest I
* Kings Quest II
* Kings Quest III
* Kings Quest IV
* Kings Quest V
* Kings Quest VI
* Kings Quest VII
* Kings Quest VIII
* Laura Bow I: Colonel's Bequest
* Laura Bow II: Dagger of Amon-Ra
* Leisure Suit Larry I
* Leisure Suit Larry II
* Leisure Suit Larry III
* Leisure Suit Larry IV
* Leisure Suit Larry V
* Leisure Suit Larry VI
* Leisure Suit Larry VII
* Manhunter I
* Manhunter II
* Mixed Up Fairy Tales
* Mixed Up Mother Goose Deluxe
* Mixed Up Mother Goose (Enhanced CD-ROM Version)
* Phantasmagoria Stagefright
* Phantasmagoria: A Puzzle of Flesh
* Police Quest I
* Police Quest II
* Police Quest III
* Police Quest IV
* Rise of the Dragon
* Space Quest I
* Space Quest II
* Space Quest III
* Space Quest IV
* Space Quest V
* Space Quest VI

I have my PSP stacked over the edge with old games atm to Genesis and SNES and I sit down and play them once in awhile. 2 summers ago I ran through Final Fantasy VII-X2 one after another. Prior to that I ran through the Metal Gear Solid series, starting with Metal Gear 1 & 2 for MSX!

So no... I do not have much problems with playing old games, but I do have problems with low-polygon 3d in choppy resolution. FFVII, MGS, Gabriel Knight III and Silent Hill actually looks like crap, but I liked them anyway. Last or maybe last-last summer ago I ran through Alone in the Dark I-III, which was quite fun, but those games really look terrible.

[Dasale]

I have noticed the same when I have i.e gamebanshee "strategy guide", pdf game manuals (gold box adventure journals) and emulator all open side-by-side on my 52". Very handy. :)
52"? Lol I didn't knew this even exist! I already have some neck pain with the 30"... But I need a 52"! :biggrin:

[Dasale]

For me it's no trouble, really. Well.. it takes about 15mins during which I have to get used to the clunky interface and pixelated graphics, but it's not that bad, and once it's over I'm always glad I did. I started pc gaming somewhere in the mid 90's. I never use hints or walthroughs.
Woa a game killer! Could you please play Citadel: Adventure of the Cystal Keep so you solve all the puzzling? It won't be long to play and that's a really cool game.

[Dasale]

The first cRPG I played was probably Ultima III (unless you count rogue and NetHack).

I tried replaying it a while back. I gave up after about 30 minutes.

As you said, it's too clunky to be worth the bother. For me, the games worth replaying start somewhere around the Infinity Engine, and even so I haven't been able to get beyond Candlekeep with Baldur's Gate. (BG2 I did finish, eventually, and I loved PS:T.)
Well I did the same but in no way it's because of the graphics or because of map making, I just didn't found enough fun stuff here. Story is tiny, fights not interesting, exploration quite void too often. I played for example some Roguelike games that was much more fun.

[Dasale]

....I mostly play games for the experience, not for the actual gameplay... The reason I even attempt to redo a tough encounter over and over is because I want to find out what happens next, not because I enjoy it...

Who that is weird, you don't take anything from game you couldn't get from movies and books but some boring gaming time.

I think it's time for you to move on, give up on playing game and instead read books and watch movies. That said where seems going gaming sometimes is on what you seem expect, not game anymore.

That's exactly the reason why playing older games can be an unmatched experience because too often the focus of modern games isn't enough on gaming. I think in Japan it's still a bit different but there's some gaming standard that are quite boring for people not formatted for them, like in JRPG excessive uninteresting random fights or crap music you couldn't shut off except by shutting off all sounds.

[JemyM]

I have to agree with fatBastard() on that one. Games have a better narrative than books and movies as far as I concern since they have both video, audio and interactivity. Im not looking much for a challenge, but rather an experience. If I want a challenge, I simply live life. Games are a way for me to get away from that.

[JDR13]

You should all be arrested!

The fact that you're discussing "classics" and haven't mentioned System Shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock) is an outright crime. ;)

[xSamhainx]

as abhorrent as those old titles always seem to appear to me (as well as some of the newer low-tech ones such as Avernum and such) I'll admit that I am curious about the Ravenloft one I heard about in this thread. There was a Ravenloft game?

I guess that I need to get educated by reading a few threads I dug up real quick. As much as I dont want to play them, I'm still curious about them and their evolution, I gues theyre like us modern rpg geek's heritage or something.

**grabs huge tiger-size cup of green tea and settles in for a history lesson**

some site (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8461/crpg1.html)

Gamasutras history of crpgs (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070223a/barton_01.shtml)

part two (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070223b/barton_01.shtml)

pt 3 (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070411/barton_01.shtml)

[Zloth]

Ah yes, the Old Ones, the ones who came before!! Yeah, they reek by today's standards. You'll often hear old coots like me talk about how wonderful those games were and how today's games just don't have the "magic" of the old games. Some things to keep in mind:

1. Before these games came out, we had *NO* graphics. Heck, there were hardly even any fantasy style movies. Just books and the pen & paper games. 8 bit color leaves 0 bit color in the dust. (Yes Infocom, really it does.)

2. It's a lot easier to remember fun things than not-fun things. The first game I bought for myself was Ultima 2. The only bug I remember in the game was that capturing a pirate ship could duplicate the ship, making it easy to get hundreds of ships if you wanted. The only reason I remember that is because it was fun to get lots of them and build bridges out of ships. Were there other bugs? I'm sure there were lots but I've forgotten them all. Time makes the heart grow fonder and all that.

3. They were NEW! When you look back at a game now you see the lack of an auto-map or a quest journal. When we played them then, we didn't miss those things because we never had them! And all those cliche quests weren't cliche back then, they were new ideas!

[Zakhary]

The only problem for me now is which oldie should I play next:
World of Aden: Thunderscape, Albion, Ultima Underworld 1, Eye of the Beholder series, Dragonwars or perhaps I should start with the Savage Frontier games?
I'm starting to lean towards dragonwars, cause from what I've read - it seems very interesting.
And yes, I have a legitimate, recently bought copy of all of the above- AND a real machine to play them with. no questionable abandonware zips or emulators for me, thank you very much. And don't even get me started on those widescreen LCD's...
*mumbles something about heretics and blasphemy*

Where are the ancient ones, who were there when ultima 1 was released, when you need them?!
I'm just a lone youngster here, battling a horde of heretics! HOLD THE LINE!!!

[GothicGothicness]

Albion is a great game, so is UU 1 , you'll have a great time in front of you!

[Dasale]

I have to agree with fatBastard() on that one. Games have a better narrative than books and movies as far as I concern since they have both video, audio and interactivity. Im not looking much for a challenge, but rather an experience. If I want a challenge, I simply live life. Games are a way for me to get away from that.
Cough Cough, I can appreciate provocation but is it one? Too many young people just don't read anymore.

That's such a piety, throw movies and game crap in trash, if you want great narrative search through books, absolutely nothing match a book and your imagination to setup up the best narrative.

[Dasale]

Albion is a great game, so is UU 1 , you'll have a great time in front of you!

And Citadel: Adventure of the Crystal Keep. :biggrin: Well through an emulator, but I don't know what price could be a Mac Plus, perhaps less than the price of a game.

[zakhal]

I have to agree with fatBastard() on that one. Games have a better narrative than books and movies as far as I concern since they have both video, audio and interactivity. Im not looking much for a challenge, but rather an experience. If I want a challenge, I simply live life. Games are a way for me to get away from that.

Well said. Agree 100% especially about the experience part.

The only problem for me now is which oldie should I play next:
World of Aden: Thunderscape, Albion, Ultima Underworld 1, Eye of the Beholder series, Dragonwars or perhaps I should start with the Savage Frontier games?I'm starting to lean towards dragonwars, cause from what I've read - it seems very interesting.
And yes, I have a legitimate, recently bought copy of all of the above-

I own all of those too (3 copies of uu1). If possible I always buy abandonware games too - its not like they cost much anyways.

Dragonwars is the one I would choose too - its the oldest.

And don't even get me started on those widescreen LCD's...
*mumbles something about heretics and blasphemy*
Well thers certain charm in playing say 4/16-color 320x resolution classic with 4000€ hardware. Besides those old tubemonitors make my eyes hurt (and they are too big to fit anywhere). ;)

As long as the story / game mechanics stays the same (or are superior !) I dont really care if the outlook is faithful to the original or not. Original version is not always the best imho.

[Dasale]

as abhorrent as those old titles always seem to appear to me (as well as some of the newer low-tech ones such as Avernum and such) I'll admit that I am curious about the Ravenloft one I heard about in this thread. There was a Ravenloft game?

I guess that I need to get educated by reading a few threads I dug up real quick. As much as I dont want to play them, I'm still curious about them and their evolution, I gues theyre like us modern rpg geek's heritage or something.

**grabs huge tiger-size cup of green tea and settles in for a history lesson**

some site (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8461/crpg1.html)

Gamasutras history of crpgs (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070223a/barton_01.shtml)

part two (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070223b/barton_01.shtml)

pt 3 (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070411/barton_01.shtml)

The Matt Barton overview is quite interesting and certainly the less questionable I've seen. The third part mixing CRPG from 1994 to modern is a little artificial but he wanted drag 1990-93 CRPG into his golden age (85-93). :) Also he starts modern age in 2002 by linking it to Neverwinter Night 1. There's a logic but not that much when you see that in 2001 there was already Gothic 1, Vampire: The Masquerade and even Summoner, all three jumping fully into modern 3D approach.

Anyway that's this sort of article that could raise interest to old games and even if it's more a garbage the topic "Top 10 CRPGs of all time" in this forum is interesting to browse from this point of view.

I didn't knew the first url you quote, thanks for it, one more cool read to come. :)

[Dasale]

Well said. Agree 100% especially about the experience part.

Woo, I cannot believe you ever read a great novel otherwise you wouldn't wrote that.

[zakhal]

Woo, I cannot believe you ever read a great novel otherwise you wouldn't wrote that.
I read books too (currently azure bonds together with the game) but books dont offer video audio and totally lack interaction. I remember seeing som interactive novels in the 80s but they were nothing compared to what computer games can offer.

When it comes to computer games even a mediocre/poor story can really immerse me in with the help of audio/video/interaction. Books lack those three so they need to have better stories to have the same immersion.

Naturally I would like all games to have stories equaling books but its not an absolute requirement for a good immersion.

[Dasale]

Azure bound books? Well perhaps if you try great books you could understand that it's an extreme experience when you read a great book. No interactivity can make it a better experience. It's so wrong to believe that because you don't decide anything that it cannot be an experience. You aren't passive, your imagination works fully and you react to the story. And no skip the interactive book crap I'm sure most are just poor novels.

That said, if you are too old it's probably too late for you. 10-25 is certainly the best age to read novels because you are the most receptive. After and even after 20, it's starting to be too late. Well it's just my feeling.

[Dasale]

I just discovered that Matt Barton had in fact write a book:
Dungeons and Desktops: The History of Computer Role-playing Games

Interesting is anybody here read it?

Pff and I also quote:
Dungeons and Dreamers: The Rise of Computer Game Culture from Geek to Chic

Dam why nobody write such book in my language or at least translate that sort of book? Those would have been by best Christmas gift (cough cough to me!) since age! :biggrin:

EDIT: Rhaa and:
Quests: Design, Theory, and History in Games and Narratives
That one too is intriguing!

[Dasale]

About interactivity and experience I played recently the remake of Final Fantasy IV. It has undoubtedly a story strong enough to generate a good experience value from its story.

But if you look at it closely it's based only on few tricks. What's working well is the numerous "friends" that die. The story make you share a bit of their "living" then cut the link brutally by death. That's the only trick that make works its story good, remove it and you get almost a crap.

But that mechanism is working by not allowing player interactivity: The player is forced to take this NPC in the team and then has no possibility to avoid the NPC death. If you let the player interactivity influence the story line you get a strong chance to break all because eventually he will stick with NPC he currently already has because of some attachment. Or he will do anything to avoid NPC death and will not have the full experience.

I don't say that it's not possible to do something with more story interactivity but quote this to show how best experience from story is close to be contradictory to interactivity.

[txa1265]

You should all be arrested!

The fact that you're discussing "classics" and haven't mentioned System Shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock) is an outright crime. ;)

I thought we were focusing on ... aw, never mind, focus was lost on page one ... :D

[Dasale]

I thought we were focusing on ... aw, never mind, focus was lost on page one ... :D

Lol, I'm not sure that the focus is so much lost. Perhaps one reason people are playing old game is because at some point a shift occurred and narrative took more focus than pure gaming. Well it's how I feel it.

[JemyM]

There was a Ravenloft game?

Strahd's Possession (http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/ravenloft-strahds-possession) from 1994
Stone Prophet (http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/ravenloft-stone-prophet) from 1995

[JemyM]

Cough Cough, I can appreciate provocation but is it one? Too many young people just don't read anymore.
That's such a piety, throw movies and game crap in trash, if you want great narrative search through books, absolutely nothing match a book and your imagination to setup up the best narrative.

Books have their advantages, but that's about it. There are many narratives out there and those who know how to use the tools properly can weave a tale which no other artform would be able to express.

[JemyM]

You should all be arrested!
The fact that you're discussing "classics" and haven't mentioned System Shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock) is an outright crime. ;)

Most of the thread have discussed games that are now 20+ years old. System Shock is fairly "new" in comparison. :)

[zakhal]

Azure bound books? Well perhaps if you try great books you could understand that it's an extreme experience when you read a great book.
Its just one book I read - I read lots of others from the polish witcher books to RR Martin's 'Song of Ice and Fire' saga which many consider A class fantasy.

Azure bond is B class but its add and Im add fan and it relates directly to certain game so it enhances the experience when Im playing it.

No interactivity can make it a better experience. It's so wrong to believe that because you don't decide anything that it cannot be an experience.
You call interactivity crap but what works for one doesnt work for other. Dont forget that people are individuals. In my case interaction means immersion.


That said, if you are too old it's probably too late for you. 10-25 is certainly the best age to read novels because you are the most receptive. After and even after 20, it's starting to be too late. Well it's just my feeling.
I read tons of books when I was young 10-20 from horror to scifi to fantasy. From dune to dragonlance. So dont worry there is nothing "wrong" about me been immersed about computer games (Why am I forced to defend this on a computer games forum?).

I think you have problem - you are unable to immerse yourself properly with computer games. Too old for games perhaps? ;)

[Benedict]

The only problem for me now is which oldie should I play next:
World of Aden: Thunderscape, Albion, Ultima Underworld 1, Eye of the Beholder series, Dragonwars or perhaps I should start with the Savage Frontier games?


Dragonwars was great, I have fond memories of that game. First one I remember playing that dispensed with the class system and was purely skills based, well written as well IIRC.

Albion was great too, and ultima underworld. Never got as in to Eye of the Beholder as others, thunderscape was okay though.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

but books dont offer video audio and totally lack interaction.

There is a very, very, very limited exception to that (the 2nd part of the above sentence).

There does exist a form of books which presents the reader/player with a paragraph of text, after which a choice must be made.
Choice A leads to a certain page number, choice B leads to a certain *other* page number.
On each pages are other paragraphs of text describing how the "adventure" develops according to your choices.

I have never seen this concept except once in an "adventure" book where one plays kind of an ancioent greek hero (I've never went through it, though), and second as a self-learning book about Geometry.

This concept has kind of survived in solo adventures in P&P, as far as I know. I do know this from TDE "solos", but I assume the old WEG Star Wars RPG had this, too.
I'm not sure about other formats (systems), but i almost expect this there, too.

[zakhal]

There is a very, very, very limited exception to that (the 2nd part of the above sentence).

There does exist a form of books which presents the reader/player with a paragraph of text, after which a choice must be made.
Choice A leads to a certain page number, choice B leads to a certain *other* page number.
On each pages are other paragraphs of text describing how the "adventure" develops according to your choices.

I have never seen this concept except once in an "adventure" book where one plays kind of an ancioent greek hero (I've never went through it, though), and second as a self-learning book about Geometry.
too.
Actually I mentioned that in my previous post "I remember seeing som interactive novels in the 80s". I dont remember if I read any but certainly I have images in my head of one - it was before I got my first computer (c64).

The one book I remember was from teenage book series called "five" which was about four kids and a doggie (they had "adventures" and ate lots of food). It worked exactly as you described.

In a weird way it reminds me of gold box series where you have to read this paragraph or that paragraph according to your choices (perhaps they got the idea from the interactive books?).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Thanks. "Interactive books" was the term I couldn't remember.

I think some company developed something like that for Star Wars, too (non-RPG).

[skavenhorde]

(Why am I forced to defend this on a computer games forum?).

A scene from 300:

Messenger: Choose your next words carfully Zakhal. They may be your last as a RPG player.
Zakhal:Ink and paper....
[Pulls sword out of sheath and points it at messenger.]
Messenger:Madman! You're a Madman!
Zakhal:Ink and paper. You'll find plenty of those down there in the dank, dark halls of your public library.
Messenger:No man, geek or jock, no man threatens a messenger.
Zakhal:You bring the heads of the illiterate to my city steps. You insult my choose your own adventure books. You threaten my people with slavery to nonimmersive entertainment. Oh, I've choosen my words carefully, Dasalian. Perhaps you should have done the same!
Messenger:This is blasphemy! This is madness!
Zakhal:Madness...?
[Shouting]
Zakhal:This is Immersiveness!
[Kicks messenger down the well of lost library books]

Sorry Zakahal, I couldn't help myself :biggrin: It's a little silly for someone to tell you that what you find entertaining is the wrong way to have fun. I don't know why, but this tweaked scene from 300 popped in my "imagination" when reading the posts here ;)

[Dasale]

It was about narrative not entertainment nor immersion, and fun is another subject, is it from an entertainment point of view or sense of humor?

Why making a garbage with all of that? It was about narrative, don't search more. For entertainment value best games compare easily to best novels. For immersion, ok every people is different, for me both succeed as well, roughly.

But why distract the focus? It was about narrative and well no, I see no game that can match best novels on this point of view. And I'm very surprise if anybody will. It's just a confusion and double misunderstanding here, someone is talking about entertainment and someone else about narrative.

I don't want to learn to anybody what is the more fun for him, fun wasn't the topic. But for best narrative I don't want learn anything to anybody, it's just obvious best novels beat hard best games on this limited point of view of narrative. Don't look for more, other points are only double misunderstanding.

[magerette]

Interesting rambling discussion going on here, with some nice links from Sammy thrown in to educate me even.

I have to agree with the original poster who's tried and failed to play the older games--I admit I'm spoiled, but presentation is a massive part of anything, and the old games just leave me unengaged from the moment I see those heiroglyphic-like graphics. My loss, I know. I used to try to play them, even loaded up DOSbox for Darklands once, but I've long since accepted that I just don't have the grit, and whatever rewards are there are not worth the investment of time and energy needed to relearn all my gaming skills.

On the subject of books--I have to say I see no reason why reading after the age of 25 is futile. I read probably an average of four or more books a week, and I haven't seen 25 for longer than many of you have been playing games. ;) I disagree that games can't have an immersive narrative, but most don't rely on it as books do to be the major component of the experience. Games have the great advantage of being interactive physically, while the interactivity of books relies on the imagination.

[Dasale]

Its just one book I read - I read lots of others from the polish witcher books to RR Martin's 'Song of Ice and Fire' saga which many consider A class fantasy.

Azure bond is B class but its add and Im add fan and it relates directly to certain game so it enhances the experience when Im playing it.

Why quote Azure bond as an example of narrative in novels? Strange choice don't you agree?

About saga, their effect is quite different than a pure single novel. They can be not that good but as story cumulate your reminding related to it grows and you enjoy more and more at a point to read crap and you don't realize it. :)

I read tons of books when I was young 10-20 from horror to scifi to fantasy. From dune to dragonlance. So dont worry there is nothing "wrong" about me been immersed about computer games.
Immersion is only a small point when it's about narrative. For sure some computer games can achieve a high degree of immersion but it's more pure action game that will achieve this at the best, no link to narrative value of the game.

(Why am I forced to defend this on a computer games forum?)

Cough cough, it's not about you, don't worry!

I think you have problem - you are unable to immerse yourself properly with computer games. Too old for games perhaps? ;)
Perhaps but if there's a problem it's more with novels, above a certain age it becomes harder and harder to be attracted enough by novels to read them, I see coming the day when reading will be mainly read again books you already read. :biggrin:

[magerette]

Dasale wrote
Perhaps but if there's a problem it's more with novels, above a certain age it becomes harder and harder to be attracted enough by novels to read them, I see coming the day when reading will be mainly read again books you already read.

That's a super-personal observation, I hope you know. Why should you stop doing something you enjoy just because you get older? I am every bit as "attracted" to a good novel now as I was thirty years ago. Your point makes little sense to me except as your own personal experience.

[Dasale]

On the subject of books--I have to say I see no reason why reading after the age of 25 is futile. I read probably an average of four or more books a week, and I haven't seen 25 for longer than many of you have been playing games. ;).
Lol perhaps you are older than I am? Yes I agree I push it a bit far about age and reading novels. First point, futile? I never wrote that.

I discuss that with some other people and most had end like me, reading a lot when they was younger then less and less up to almost not read anymore novels. You are clearly not in this category.

Yes futile is an arguing I heard about reading novels when you become older. As a gamer I could only smile to this. For some people perhaps or it's just the reason they invent. It's not clear why I read less and less novels. For most people I discuss about that subject it wasn't clear too. One reason is perhaps time and that is clearly valid for some, but when you play games or watch TV or movies it's clearly not valid! Another reason is the older you are the harder anything succeed to appeal you and novels just fail to raise curiosity. I wonder if I enter in this category, perhaps and quite sad then! :biggrin:

[Dasale]

Dasale wrote
That's a super-personal observation, I hope you know. Why should you stop doing something you enjoy just because you get older? I am every bit as "attracted" to a good novel now as I was thirty years ago. Your point makes little sense to me except as your own personal experience.
Dam you make me feel old! In my family (with grand parents and uncles and female uncles) I quoted a similar behavior, everybody reading a lot but the older the more they read books already read. I also heard that few time. But you are right clearly it's not a rule that apply to anybody.

Unlike you seem think, I don't think it's so negative to read a book already read many years ago. And even I don't think it brings less.... But perhaps you are too young to realize that. ;)

[skavenhorde]

Why making a garbage with all of that? It was about narrative, don't search more. For entertainment value best games compare easily to best novels. For immersion, ok every people is different, for me both succeed as well, roughly.

You thought it was garbage? Ahhh I really liked it too. It was entertaining for me :) and you were sounding a bit preachy.


It's just a confusion and double misunderstanding here, someone is talking about entertainment and someone else about narrative.

Reading a good narrative is entertaining = fun.
Playing a great game is entertaining = fun.
Both are the same to me. When you read a great novel are you not entertained? When you play a great game are you not entertained?


I don't want to learn to anybody what is the more fun for him, fun wasn't the topic. But for best narrative I don't want learn anything to anybody, it's just obvious best novels beat hard best games on this limited point of view of narrative.

But you were preaching, my friend. It's ok. Your passionate about it and I happen to agree with you to an extent, but I just had to have some fun with you when you make statements like these.

Azure bound books? Well perhaps if you try great books you could understand that it's an extreme experience when you read a great book. No interactivity can make it a better experience. It's so wrong to believe that because you don't decide anything that it cannot be an experience. You aren't passive, your imagination works fully and you react to the story. And no skip the interactive book crap I'm sure most are just poor novels.

I see what your saying but I happen to have played a few games that have been a better experience than any book I've read and I've read a lot. Mostly fantasy novels like Dragonlance, Sword of Truth novels, some classics etc...Been reading them since I was 10 starting with Sword of Shannara. Best book vs best computer game, I go with computer game. IMO ;)

Like Magerette said this is some pretty good ramblings but back to the point of this whole thread. Great old games where you had to use your imagination. I still go with Starflight 1 and 2 as one of the best.

[Dasale]

I have to agree with the original poster who's tried and failed to play the older games--I admit I'm spoiled, but presentation is a massive part of anything, and the old games just leave me unengaged from the moment I see those heiroglyphic-like graphics.
When I read that I wonder how you can be as old than you seem say. :biggrin:

You are reading plenty new novels, you dislike old games, visual is a major thing. That's plenty typical characteristics I see commonly in younger generations. Not that anybody of a similar generation is the same, it's clearly not true. But importance of image, curious enough to read a ton of new stuff... Are you really 40 years old? I'm closer to 50 but not yet, it's strange that there's so many differences, the country origin could be a part of the cause. Yes people are different but similar generations share most often many things.

[skavenhorde]

When I read that I wonder how you can be as old than you seem say. :biggrin:

You are reading plenty new novels, you dislike old games, visual is a major thing. That's plenty typical characteristics I see commonly in younger generations.

Magerette is a young woman at heart :)

[Dasale]

Reading a good narrative is entertaining = fun.
Playing a great game is entertaining = fun.
Both are the same to me. When you read a great novel are you not entertained? When you play a great game are you not entertained?

Yes but generate emotion, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.
Make me think about life, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.
Share deep story and life or characters, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.


Best book vs best computer game, I go with computer game.

For entertainment perhaps I could say the same, I wonder. I'm not sure Foundation (the first book and not the saga), Lord of The Ring, Ubik, Suldrun, The Man in the Maze, City, The Instrumentality of Mankind, More Than Human, Sundiver, and many more. I wonder if a game ever bring more even from pure entertainment value.

[Dasale]

Magerette is a young woman at heart :)
And I'm old at heart! That's pathetic! Alas I could whine as much I want my youth is in my past and play some games won't change it! :biggrin:

Here that's out of topic! :p

[wolfing]

Lol perhaps you are older than I am? Yes I agree I push it a bit far about age and reading novels. First point, futile? I never wrote that.

I discuss that with some other people and most had end like me, reading a lot when they was younger then less and less up to almost not read anymore novels. You are clearly not in this category.

Yes futile is an arguing I heard about reading novels when you become older. As a gamer I could only smile to this. For some people perhaps or it's just the reason they invent. It's not clear why I read less and less novels. For most people I discuss about that subject it wasn't clear too. One reason is perhaps time and that is clearly valid for some, but when you play games or watch TV or movies it's clearly not valid! Another reason is the older you are the harder anything succeed to appeal you and novels just fail to raise curiosity. I wonder if I enter in this category, perhaps and quite sad then! :biggrin:
It may just be a sign of times changing. Yes, I read a lot more books when I was a teenager than now, but back then I didn't even have a computer, and it was in the middle of the console crash so no video games to play either. There were some 4 or 5 tv channels with lousy programming, so books were an important source of entertainment. Fast forward 25 years and now my free time is spread around computer and video games, 100 channels on DirecTV and the DVR, along with a 3-discs-at-a-time Netflix subscription... I basically just read a book every few months, about 15 minutes at a time in the toilet :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes but generate emotion, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.
Make me think about life, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.
Share deep story and life or characters, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.

To some extend I agree, with one exception in my gaming career so far: PS:T.

From someone at the Larian forums i heard they were even talking Philosophy at old PS:T boards !

Something that would be impossible in other boards !
(Most certainly at the Codex, I assume. I guess they would call Philosophers "whiners" there.)

[Dasale]

It may just be a sign of times changing. Yes, I read a lot more books when I was a teenager than now, but back then I didn't even have a computer, and it was in the middle of the console crash so no video games to play either. There were some 4 or 5 tv channels with lousy programming, so books were an important source of entertainment. Fast forward 25 years and now my free time is spread around computer and video games, 100 channels on DirecTV and the DVR, along with a 3-discs-at-a-time Netflix subscription... I basically just read a book every few months, about 15 minutes at a time in the toilet :)
Lol yes, but I don't think it's the reason I and some older people read less novels than they did. My parents did the same and they still not have any computer. :biggrin: (I gave up struggle!)

But for young generation it's the clear cause. Entertainment mass noise glue them. There's so many new stuff coming around that quality become somehow a confuse thing hidden by the mass of new. New is the value of any young generation alas now so many new thing come at each second that it generate a noise where it's much less easy to extract the quality.

Sure some young succeed to get a vision, often it's at price of an extreme dedication to a limited area. A lot of time involved in a special type of music, devoted to some sort of video games. I wonder if that doesn't generate a too soon specialization where generalization would be more constructive. But well, is all of that important... probably not. :)

[skavenhorde]

AHH PS:T the holy grail. I agree and will add the Ultima 4 - 7 series. They wouldn't be called the pinicale between narratives and gaming, but they dealt with real life issues in a fantasy setting.
Ultima 4 - search for perfection
Ultima 5 - Corruption of the soul
Utlima 6 - Racism
Ultima 7 - Fanatacism

That may not what Lord British meant to convey in his games but that is what I took away from each one and they were fun too ;) The death of Dupre is one of the best moments in gaming I've seen. Afterwords I couldn't believe he had to die and I did feel a real sense of loss. That guy had been through the thick and thin with me ever since Ultima 4 and poof then he is gone. So yes, for me, a great emotional experience can be conveyed through games. I've even shed a tear in a few of the better ones. But those relied heavily on a great narrative.

[magerette]

Magerette is a young woman at heart :)
Thanks, skav. Some call it arrested development, or mental neotony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny). :)
And I'm old at heart! That's pathetic! Alas I could whine as much I want my youth is in my past and play some games won't change it! :biggrin:

Here that's out of topic! :p

Sorry to lead you young people astray but I'm bad that way. ;) My theory here is that when many people began reading novels and playing games, they were in their teen or pre-teen years, trapped at home and bored. Then you get to your post high-school young adulthood and discover a myriad of other forms of entertainment, not to mention work, college and the opposite sex. So your time becomes filled up with other interests for awhile. I think I read less in my twenties and thirties than before or since, also.

It's all good--when you become old, you'll be desperate for ways to remain amused, and you'll have plenty of room for gaming, reading, Netflix and the internet in your schedules. :)

Okay--apologies for the off-topic. Carry on.

[JDR13]

Most of the thread have discussed games that are now 20+ years old. System Shock is fairly "new" in comparison. :)

Er....no, it's not.

Ultima VII and Ultima Underworld were released in 92. Lands of Lore 1 was released in 93, as was Betrayal at Krondor. System shock was released in 94.

[Zaleukos]

When I read that I wonder how you can be as old than you seem say. :biggrin:

You are reading plenty new novels, you dislike old games, visual is a major thing. That's plenty typical characteristics I see commonly in younger generations. Not that anybody of a similar generation is the same, it's clearly not true. But importance of image, curious enough to read a ton of new stuff... Are you really 40 years old? I'm closer to 50 but not yet, it's strange that there's so many differences, the country origin could be a part of the cause. Yes people are different but similar generations share most often many things.

Nah, if anything I think that age makes us less patient with trivial stuffs. Older people are like aging sports stars who have a harder time finding motivation for the everyday grind of the league and only really get going during the playoffs. I am only 32 but I have much less patience with crappy interfaces that slow down gameplay (or with grinding in general) compared to when I was younger.

[txa1265]

Er....no, it's not.

Ultima VII and Ultima Underworld were released in 92. Lands of Lore 1 was released in 93, as was Betrayal at Krondor. System shock was released in 94.

I know - that was my first thought when I saw your initial post, then I thought ... hey, he's right!

[JDR13]

I think sometimes people tend to forget how old System shock is. It definitely aged a lot better than some of the other classics.

[zakhal]

The cdrom version of ss with svga and speech is actually pretty decent still. I replayed it through 6 months ago or so.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I once played an old demo of system shock, but I didn't like the whole environment.

I guess I became picky over the time.

[JemyM]

I actually never played the original System Shock. It's one of those games which have been on my "to play" list for a long long time.

[Corwin]

It was SO far ahead of its time. You could crouch behind something and then lean around the corner to shoot. Not even F3 has that ability!!

[JemyM]

Yeah, I know. It's supposed to be one of the first first-person 3d games with a story. I do not know if it's aged well though. I tested the CD Version and could barely see what was going on on screen. o_O

[woges]

As ever there is some game-play vid (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xap7JLlROSQ&feature=related) on YouTube.

I don't think I've ever played it.

I've been wanting to pick up SS2 for a while now but it seems a little hard to come by. You think they'd publish it somewhere in some form.

[JDR13]

Yeah, I know. It's supposed to be one of the first first-person 3d games with a story. I do not know if it's aged well though. I tested the CD Version and could barely see what was going on on screen. o_O

There's a patch floating around somewhere that lets you up the resolution to 1024x768. It's the story and gameplay that make SS what it is though. Most modern games are seriously dumbed-down in comparison.

[GothicGothicness]

Yeah, I know. It's supposed to be one of the first first-person 3d games with a story. I do not know if it's aged well though. I tested the CD Version and could barely see what was going on on screen

The SVGA version is not that bad, in fact I played it again just recently it is better than SS2 in my opinion and it is a blast to play it! It feautures one of the best villians ever!!!!

[DArtagnan]

System Shock is my all time favorite game.

As I've said many times before, it represents the pinnacle of innovation and game design from where I'm sitting.

It's from the last part of the era where the audience was pretty much all hardcore and as such, companies weren't falling over themselves to please us with casual gameplay and superficial stories.

Very few developers are interested in limiting their audience these days, so only indie titles attempt innovation on this level and unfortunately that means low production values and too often a poor technical state in terms of code, art, and sound.

Looking Glass developed their own engine and compared with other big contemporaries - like Doom - it was miles ahead of its time. It had complex lighting, physics, and apart from the mobs, it was also fully 3D. You could crouch, go prone, as well as lean around corners from all positions. You could throw a timed landmine into an anti-grav elevator and watch the light from the explosion as you heard it go off somewhere above you.

But more than that, it was a giant mostly non-linear game with a very plausible level design. You weren't force-fed obvious clues, but instead had to piece together the puzzle one step at a time. Unlike Bioshock, the inferior and lesser game, the audio logs didn't necessarily relate to the exact problem you're facing upon finding them. No, this game tried to challenge you - and to help out with that, it had what's often considered the best antagonist of any game. SHODAN - the AI who would tease and observe constantly as you progressed and who went more and more insane as you neared the conclusion.

I could go on and on, but please, if you haven't already - go and play this NOW. Yes it looks like crap by todays standards - but it doesn't take more than an hour to adjust.

http://www.strangebedfellows.de/index.php/topic,211.0.html

There's a link to System Shock Portable - which will make it run just fine in XP in high resolution with fast frame rates.

Just do it.

[JemyM]

There's a patch floating around somewhere that lets you up the resolution to 1024x768. It's the story and gameplay that make SS what it is though. Most modern games are seriously dumbed-down in comparison.

Found the mod. SS simply refused to run in WinXP even with Mok's patch, but I am now running SS in 1280x1024 in DOSBOX. Feels a lot more playable now indeed. I can actually see what things on screen is supposed to be.

[Zakhary]

I think I'll try to get my hands on the original system shock 1.
Never really thought about SS1 before ... I'm Very interested now.

[JDR13]

Look what I started...... ;)

[Dasale]

I played years ago a 640*480 version of SS1. I played multiple area but never really get into the story and the mood and finally give up a long before the end. Additionally I never succeed to enjoy the controls, quite a problem for an action game. But it definitely worth a try.

[JDR13]

I played years ago a 640*480 version of SS1. I played multiple area but never really get into the story and the mood and finally give up a long before the end. Additionally I never succeed to enjoy the controls, quite a problem for an action game. But it definitely worth a try.

A lot of newer gamers have issues with the controls in SS, mainly the fact that the keys cannot be remapped in the game. A simple solution is to use a key remapping program to set the keys how you want them.

[Dasale]

A lot of newer gamers have issues with the controls in SS, mainly the fact that the keys cannot be remapped in the game. A simple solution is to use a key remapping program to set the keys how you want them.
It's so long ago that I don't remember well but the point is that I couldn't get used to the mouse use during complex long range shooting, even after many hours of play. I remember you had to use the mouse in a similar way than in UU with a difference I don't remember but that was this mouse use I didn't succeed to get used to in a shooter. The problem I remember with this system was to not fit a too large screen like the full play screen in 640*480.

[blatantninja]

Some similar techniques is actually available in emu's like DOSBox. The following screenshot is taken with a Hq3x filter (top) and scaled 3x (bottom).

http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/ultima6comparison.jpg

Jemy, That screen shot looks like Ultima6. If it is, and you made it, did you have any problem with popping noises in the audio? I just booted it up and am giving it a try (game looks great with the filter!), but the audio popping is really annoying. I did a google search, but didn't come up with anything.

[JemyM]

Jemy, That screen shot looks like Ultima6. If it is, and you made it, did you have any problem with popping noises in the audio? I just booted it up and am giving it a try (game looks great with the filter!), but the audio popping is really annoying. I did a google search, but didn't come up with anything.

I never actually played the game, I just produced the screenshot. I have had problems with the sound when using DOSBox, but for all sorts of reasons such as wrong setup, to slow computer or old version of DOSBox itself.

[Corwin]

Why play the old version, when the new U6P version is on the way to a free download center near you by the end of next year!! :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

With a launch party ? ;)

"Win free copies of a free game !" ;)

[blatantninja]

Why play the old version, when the new U6P version is on the way to a free download center near you by the end of next year!! :)

There is still something to be said for the original! But don't worry, I'll be playing U6P pretty much as soon as it is released!

[Dasale]

There is still something to be said for the original! But don't worry, I'll be playing U6P pretty much as soon as it is released!
And you'll never know how play the original so will be unable to use that classical reference. :)

[skavenhorde]

And you'll never know how play the original so will be unable to use that classical reference. :)

I'm a little confused. He did play the original (I think) so he knows how to play the original... as for that classical reference ...I'm just lost :SSounds like my kind of humor where you know it sounds funny but the context is off a bit :D

Must be an inside joke:)

[Dasale]

Lol I see what you mean skavenhorde. Well let me try again.... :biggrin:
Why play the old version, when the new U6P version is on the way to a free download center near you by the end of next year!! :)

And HE'll never know how play the original so will be unable to use that classical reference. :p

[blatantninja]

LOL!

Well, the sound problem seems to have fixed it self. Maybe it was some built up static electricity in my speakers or something.

Took me about an hour to get into the game, now I'm loving it! Only thing that is annoying me so far is that I decided to wander around to get some experience before trying to take on the gargoyles defending the shrines. Couldn't find anything to fight! I walked have of Britannia and only ran into some trolls and headless on a bridge! I need some gold to buy better equipment (and spells), so I guess I'm heading into a dungeon.