Boy, is this game cool!

[Jabberwocky]

I know most of you already have this game, and are probably tired of reading "personal" reviews. But I am posting this on the small chance that someone who wasn't sure about the game before will read it and decide to take the plunge.
I'm not very far into the game, but I just want to tell everyone how much fun I'm having. Why?.. because I have been reading forums for a month now that largely consist of whining and complaining about how "the game's not this... the game's not that"... I was starting to wonder if I should have ordered the CE or not! (And I don't say that to offend anyone, I respect the intelligence of the other contributors of these forums, but after experiencing the game first-hand I am inclined to say most of the complaints are a little exaggerated.)

Glad I followed my instinct... Here's my impressions so far:

Graphics and performance: I haven't downloaded or applied any software tweaks, I wanted to see what it would do straight out of the box. I haven't even adjusted any of the settings through the game menu. They are all set to default which is medium. So far I haven't experienced ANY major problems or noticed any major graphical glitches. No crashes... seems very stable. Load times are long, but not anywhere as bad as they were made out to be. (maybe I'm just really patient) The game stutters and stammers a bit on occassion, but overall the framrate is better than the first two games were when I got them. In fact, the opening fight with the Orcs couldn't have been smoother, I was flabbergasted by the fluidity of the whole ordeal. I think the world is absolutely beautiful, even on medium settings, and I honestly don't know how anyone could say otherwise.

Gameplay and design: I was scared about the voice acting upon learning that it was an all-new cast. My fears have been allayed however, now that I've heard it. I know I'm going to get rocks thrown at me for this... but... I like the hero's voice better NOW. He sounds more confident to me, as opposed to an "unlikely hero" unsure of himself. And his pitch is still close enough to the original that it doesn't seem like an appalling substitute. The one voice that I wish had remained original from G1 is Diego's. You can't help but love his voice in the first game. Still, his current voice is better than G2's, and is therefore STILL an improvement.

I've heard complaints about incomplete dialogue among the "old friends" of the hero. While I admit that it is very brief at the start of the game, it does not seem out of place to me. After all, the hero and his friends have just been sailing for a month together, so what would really need to be said in addition to what's presented? WE may have spent the last couple years away from them, but THEY are in daily association with one another. It would be a little unrealistic for them to say things like "Wow, what a trip! How 'bout that one part when such-and-such happened?" While that might clue some newcomers in on what happened in the past, it would be very out of place and therefore "fake".

I'm playing with the up-to-date version, and didn't experience some of the combat woes that I've read about. There definitely is a problem with stun-lock that needs to be addressed. I got stun-locked to death by a scavenger, and that's just WRONG. Nevertheless, it isn't impossible to work with, and if you keep swinging, it actually makes the creatures EASIER to kill than in previous games. I have mixed feelings about this. As far as story continuity is concerned, it makes sense that my "fresh off the boat" hero is able to easily dispatch lizards, after all, he's been doing it for a while now. As far as gameplay is concerned however, it is not nearly so challenging as the first games, and as a hard-core Gothic gamer, that's a bad thing in my opinion.

The music is the best I've ever heard. 'nuff said.

In conclusion, I think this game deserves respect for what it IS, and less complaining about what it was WISHED it to be. If you can get past all of that, then you will love Gothic 3!

[bjon045]

good review, the difficulty thing has me concerned though, as a gothic veteran am I going to find it too easy? I hope there is some kind of difficulty switch.

[Wulf]

And once again Jabb's (we must be on the same wavelength) i echo the same words. To me the game is perfect, stun-lock included, i wouldn't want any further dumbing down but PB have to keep some of the whiners happy and i respect their standpoint.

Currently in the game, i am somewhere northwest of Geldern and the landscape is stunningly beautiful, there is so much to appreciate that there is little time to sidetrack over niggling faults - any true gamer worth his salt knows he lives with life's little innacuracies that occur in pc games.

I will be playing this game for ages to come, i have no other gaming plans just yet. I played for one week then started again, then after five days started yet again, such is the unsure and diversive path which nameless must carefully choose...a deviant yet brilliant concept. Sure there is an easy path through the game - but i sense there is also a steep and rocky path that few players will choose.

The appreciation and beauty of G3 will happen over time and such will the gothic series be able to consolidate it's position in the 3D gaming world.

[Thaurin]

It's always cool to read the positive opinions after so much negative. I do think another gig of RAM would help me out considerably. But really, I could play just fine with a few tweaks and after all is said and loaded. I guess it's also up to your play style. That is, if you want fast-paced action all the time without getting to know the NPC's and exploring the area at a leisurely pace, some may be somewhat disappointed. I've also heard people freak about a little drop in frame rates in other games when it doesn't detract from the gameplay one bit.

[HiddenX]

Gothic 3 is not a bad game - but like Oblivion I have to say :
"What could have been with some more technical polishing and more dialog to present the main story better ?"

[Jabberwocky]

good review, the difficulty thing has me concerned though, as a gothic veteran am I going to find it too easy? I hope there is some kind of difficulty switch.

Thanks for the compliment. And to answer your question: Yes, there is a changeable difficulty setting in the options. Being very afraid of all the stun-lock and combat nightmares I've heard about, I set my game to MEDIUM difficutly. I assume that the settings simply change the amount of hitpoints for NPC's and creatures, but I'm not entirely sure.

[curious]

i guess most people were/are unacustomed to the use of the right mouse button for a quick attack. a pack of any beasts are a problem but that is rightfully so in my opinion.

even before patch 2 i never had a problem from the start, with the boars. i guess there was no manual with the demo, so those people have an excuse. they should have made some screens in the installation of the demo that gave a quick rundown on attacking. not only are there 5 attacks but they can also vary greatly. for instance when i started my mage i didn't even try out the hold right, quick left attack which with a staff is great for getting a beast with a wide twirl. i was level 25 before i even knew about that one. much different than with my block with a shield and quick thrust, something i rarely used.

i love the melee combat in gothic 3. to me its right up there blade of darkness's combat - which you have to admit wouldn't work at all on 4 legged animals. thats the inherent problem with 3d combat in an rpg, its like having a 5'x5' strike zone in baseball. i seem to remember being able to hit anything in oblivion as long as it was in front of me- quite silly- at least gothic 3 address the fact that a sword weilding warrior is going to have a tougher time attacking beasts that are a couple of feet of the ground, where as a hunter or mage would have no problem. but in close combat a swordsman can by far do more damage and take less of a beating. which is why so many people are complaing about orcs being to easy. is this not balance?

[Dez]

I'm glad to read such a delightfull review. :)

Personally I'm so hooked in the game. I don't know whether anything else than gothic 1 comes remarkebly close to this experience :). And like the first poster neither have I experienced much of crashes and never found combat boring like few others... I don't remember playing ages such a masterpiece, maybe gothic 1, maybe outcast, maybe fallout 2 or maybe deus ex 1, but certainly its been awhile! Nearly impossible to quit the game. Unfortunely I have my studies and other priorites in life too. However when i'm not busy and not sleeping, i'm playing gothic 3 non-stop :).

Its impossible for me to understand how people can't see the greatness of this game. (Although I understand that people get pissed of crashes and memory bugs and then quit playing)

Btw one of my favorite places in g3 is the pass where you can see the desert of Varant in it's fullest glory. Not to mention the beautifull landscape near Silden. Hunting wild animals there with other hunters...WOW! Whats yours? :)

[Corwin]

There's a little waterfall bubbling on the road to Silden that is just stunning to see. I love this game!!

[JDR13]

I'm not trying to bring anyone down here, but I just can't agree with the game being that good. I've been playing the US demo for 2 days now and I have a major complaint. The A.I. is terrible in this game! Right from the opening battle I have seen npc's just standing around watching their allies get slain. This goes for both Orcs and Humans. On one occasion Diego just stood there with his bow drawn and watched an Orc warrior beat me senseless.
I'm hoping that maybe this is just a demo issue and that the A.I. is better in the full game.

[Corwin]

You mean you've found a game that has really great AI? I thought that was the stuff of fantasy!! :)

[JDR13]

You mean you've found a game that has really great AI? I thought that was the stuff of fantasy!! :)

I know you're trying to be funny Corwin, but seriously, Gothic 1&2 had excellent A.I.

[Thaurin]

Gothic 1/2's AI was pretty basic as far as I can remember (with the exception of the scripted 24/7 behaviour :)), but it worked great. There are a few problems with Gothic 3's AI that have the NPC's and beasts getting stuck, but I seem to remember that this will be addressed in a future patch.

[lostnumber]

Doesn't anyone see a problem with the fact that all enemies kindly wait their turn to get their arses stomped? I can liberate the entire castle and surrounding area by getting a pack of orcs to follow me somewhere to patiently wait for their turn to take on my endless chain of clicks. There are points where I can take out about 8 orcs with nothing more than clicking my left mouse button about 200 times. Really the only thing that stopped me from doing this everywhere was stun-lock. The friggin AI in Pac-man was better than that, the ghosts worked together sometimes. The AI in G1&2 wasn't about find the cure for cancer, but it was good enough to figure out that when one guy was getting his arse handed to him his buddy should step in. Really though, I think the problem here is that the combat system is designed so poorly that fighting more than one guy at a time would be too difficult. I think the AI had to be crippled in order to accommodate the unresponsive combat design.

[Jabberwocky]

Doesn't anyone see a problem with the fact that all enemies kindly wait their turn to get their arses stomped?

Doesn't anyone see a problem with the same thing happening for the hero in an action film? ;)

I'd have to say my favorite part so far is right at the end of the beginning intro. When the band of heroes strolls into Ardea and the Orc leader spots them. Right there the wonderful music goes into the main Gothic theme with an electric guitar. It sounds AWESOME and IMHO is a defining moment for the series. :biggrin:

[Thaurin]

Doesn't anyone see a problem with the fact that all enemies kindly wait their turn to get their arses stomped? I can liberate the entire castle and surrounding area by getting a pack of orcs to follow me somewhere to patiently wait for their turn to take on my endless chain of clicks. There are points where I can take out about 8 orcs with nothing more than clicking my left mouse button about 200 times. Really the only thing that stopped me from doing this everywhere was stun-lock. The friggin AI in Pac-man was better than that, the ghosts worked together sometimes. The AI in G1&2 wasn't about find the cure for cancer, but it was good enough to figure out that when one guy was getting his arse handed to him his buddy should step in. Really though, I think the problem here is that the combat system is designed so poorly that fighting more than one guy at a time would be too difficult. I think the AI had to be crippled in order to accommodate the unresponsive combat design.

Heh-- your way of putting it is of course quite trollish, but the AI is bugged sometimes where some NPC's will not follow you. I hope they fix this in a patch, but most of what you say I cannot help but laugh at a little. :)

[JDR13]

I don't think lostnumber is trying to be trollish. I agree with most of the things he's pointing out. There's no need to sugarcoat things here, the A.I. could use some major improvements in this game.

I hope they release a patch that improves the combat A.I. as well as the strength of npc's. It shouldn't take 5 rebels 40-50 seconds to kill one goblin.

[curious]

imagine that they are actually fighting with real weapons, would you stand up next to your mate and swing a sword or large polearm at your foe possibly cleaving off your own allies arm because you were both engaged, or would you surround the foe and take turns waiting for a chance/clearing as they stumbled in you direction so you could take a whack. do not forget that in gothic 3 they gave you the ability to actually swing your weapon and hit more than one opponent- something that i think is realistic and some would say and improvement from not being able to do that in gothic 1 and 2. so there really is a reason why you don't have more than one person attacking at once. i think this was intentional as i don't think beast have any problem ganging up on you. i think what does need tweaking is the npc's hit points so sword fights would last longer...but then you could argue how many hacks with a large sword could a human/orc really take?

[curious]

actually JDR13 it might be benifical the way it is because that 'weakness' only applies to npcs not in your 'party' (joined) .because if the npcs were scaled when you weren't fighting them a lot of npcs would die quickly as there are some towns and camps that have beasts very close to them. and the 'world' only interacts when you are in a certain radius, but that doesn't mean npcs have to be visible. many npcs once in this range will start walking or fighting a hostile if close enough. many npcs would get killed off rather quickly if the damage done wasn't low. even with the low level many people have experience npcs getting killed in nordmar because there is so much height there that beasts are attacking npcs but you can't for the life of you find them. a problem that i would be interested in knowing if it can be solved.

[Corwin]

I have actually been killed by allies several times. If you join a fight with a group of allies, one of their swings can hit you. (and vice versa which turns them hostile) Now, when fighting with allies, I stand well back and avoid melee.

[JDR13]

I'm picking up the full game in a couple days, but I'm not going to install it right away. I've decided to wait for the next version after v1.09. I have a feeling that PB is going to address a lot of things in the next patch.

[JonNik]

For me its more like a fervent hope rather than a feeling...
Having the game just sitting there in my HD for quite a while now...

[titus]

I played thge demo for quiet a while.
I loved it totally, have to admit, I started on easy because of the boars, just to be sure.
A.I might not be the best, but aint that awfull either, I stole something in cape dun and I got attacked by archers, and if other orc were attacking me from close they stopped shooting, well duuhhh otherwhise they would shoot there own men.
Fighting is easier than the other 2, a pitty but understandeble if you want to reach a greater market too.
1 thing I was wondering: were does gorn go after he leads you to the rebels? haven't seen him since.
I have a 3.4ghz 1gb of ram pc and the game runs smooth on medium, the loading and saving takes some time, but had the same with the other 2 before with my older pc. sometimes it get stuck for a second but not that often so I can live with that.
Now I played the demo I am sure it aint that bad as it seemed to be on the board and I want the full game PRONTO :D

[Corwin]

Gorn reappears later, when once more you have to rescue him!!

[mute]

I did also love Gothic3. Played intensly for almost a week after release. But where I am right know i couldnt really stand another fight, babysit another NPC. I am waiting for a patch, and i have read that the latest (real) patch fixed, or supposidly fixed something i disliked. I have shelved this game until its mature some more.

To be clear of what i mean:
Escorting NPCs is a pain in the arse. *save* What you do is follow the npc, where is he going. When he die (which he probably do :) ) *reload*. Clear the path kill the wildlife / enemies. Go get the NPC. *save* hopefully he makes it or if he not, rince and repeat. There is a suggestion how this situation should be handled in another thread.

Spellcasting Gobins with homeseaking fireball. In combination with the above; i just got tired.

The usually tacitcs in Gothic which works so well in 1 and 2 where i like the above mentioned dumb AI was getting incredibly tiresome. I don't know how many hours i've been spending on one mission just to get a NPC to where he suppose to be.

Altough, I will be back, and i will probably rejoice about the greatness of this game.

Then.

... well we have this excellent game called p... :-)

[elkston]

I don't think lostnumber is "trolling" at all. You guys know I am huge Gothic fan and I wanted this game to meet or exceed my dreams. But in the end I can't help but agree with a lot of lostnumber is saying.

It is very clear to me that the developers did not have the time to create a world this large AND keep it as deep and interesting as G1 or G2. Don't get me wrong -- the landscapes are wonderful and still "Gothicy" ( For example, walking the mountain path near Faring is simply incredible ). But the demands it took to pull off a massive no-loading world with the latest graphics tech. must have eaten up a good bit of their development.

This seemed to chip away the quality of the other parts of the game: Storytelling, the depth of characters and situations, largely uninspiring quests. Then of course there were the cut features. Not just the ones we all know about like climbing and diving, but even things hinted about in the game and the manual such as the "jump attack", making arrows out of teeth & tusks, learning the poision skill, etc.

What we got with Gothic 3, I think, is 70% of what PB envisioned. The shell of an awesome game is there -- the full streaming, the hand crafted world, voice acting, the potential for great combat, the world simulation. But the finer details have been excised because the game needed to get released.

In retrospect, I think that if maybe PB had decided to scale back the world to only include Myrtana, we would have gotten a more polished, "finished" game. It would still be slightly larger than G2+NOTR too!

Like Gorath said, I think that whatever add-on they make for this game will be more like what were all hoping for in the beginning.

P.S. - And what about all that early talk about the grand capital city in Myrtana. Complete with a hotel and everything? I think the fact that Vengard is in ruins was a pretty conveinent way to avoid making a full-fledged interesting city out of it.

P.S. #2 - As it stands, I feel Montera & its surroundings is really the most developed, fully fleshed out location in the game.

[curious]

well written elkston. i personally like the removal of climbing. i mean jumping up a hillside may look rediculous but there are more places to explore now. also climbing was kind of removed in gothic 2 as they took out ladders which i loved in gothic 1. also is it realistic in full armor to jump up 3 feet in the air grab a ledge and pull yourself up? an example is the old fort in gothic 1 was great to take the ladders to the top, but in gothic 2 it was redesigned and climbing up countless rock slabs wasn't all that great. in gothic 3 the stairs work great escpecially considering the amount of towers and castles in the game. also they did a good job on (not sure of the technical name) getting stuck. for example if you jump behind a rock at an angle adjacent to another rock of building, you eventually slide out or are able to jump out. this is wonderful as in other games and prior gothics getting stuck somewhere you shouldn't be forced you to reload.

as discussed in another post i too miss diving, but the only place it really would have mattered would have been the large lake with the flooded paladin castle. all other rivers are mostly shallow and the coast is so large that wasting time developing that was problem just about on the bottom of their list. hopefully in the addon they can implement it with some underground lakes.

i imagine either the 1st or 2nd addon will have a rebuilt capital which hopefully will be spectacular. also where was the harbor district? all these towns and no docks. but they problably left those out for plot reasons rather than or in addition to development time.

[Dr. A]

I'm still devestated with the removal of climbing. It was so much fun to climb into strange nooks and crannies..hehe

If you thinks it's unrealistic (climbing while wearing armor), but you like diving shouldn't the same theory apply? Anyway realism is not always fun :P

[Corwin]

There aren't too many places I haven't been able to get to!! JUMP a lot!! :)

[JDR13]

I'm still devestated with the removal of climbing. It was so much fun to climb into strange nooks and crannies..hehe

If you thinks it's unrealistic (climbing while wearing armor), but you like diving shouldn't the same theory apply? Anyway realism is not always fun :P

I agree 100%! I was downright pissed when I found out they had removed climbing and diving.

I truly loved using the climb function to be able to discover all those hidden nooks and crannies in Gothic 1&2.

Even though the dive function didn't serve a practical purpose very often, it was still a lot of fun just to dive and look around at the various things under water.
I liked swimming with the stingrays near the Harbour in G2.

[aldee]

Who needs climbing when you can just fly instead? Take a run, jump and while you're still ascending start tapping the look back key (2 on the num pad) every second or so. Oh, did anybody mention yet, that the game seems to have been rushed out? ;-)

[titus]

plzzz all give a big cheer for KAIRO. because the music is breathtaking and always very suiting :D

[Dr. A]

I liked swimming with the stingrays near the Harbour in G2.

Stingrays?!! What the...I don't remember that. Oh well, I completed G2 twice ONLY :)

[Thaurin]

Stingrays?!! What the...I don't remember that. Oh well, I completed G2 twice ONLY :)

He's right, there were big fish swimming around in the harbour. I only found this out myself because I read about it from someone else and went to check it out. ;)

But personally, I don't miss climbing or diving that much. It gives a new dimension to the game, but in the other Gothics, I never used it very much.

[titus]

only used to dive in G1 at the lake of merc camp; Just to see what was beneath the houses there. and there wasn't a thing, besides the jumping in g3 works great

[Thaurin]

By the way, just to make clear what I find trollish about some people's wording... it's not that I'm offended by it or anything, it's just so typical I'd say.

[b]Doesn't anyone see a problem[b]

Rhetorical questioning and putting words in one's mouth. ;)

...with the fact that all enemies kindly wait their turn to get their arses stomped?

Mocking AI rather than simply stating problems. ;)

endless chain of clicks. [...] clicking my left mouse button about 200 times.

Exaggeration. ;)

The friggin AI in Pac-man was better than that, the ghosts worked together sometimes.

Irrelevant apples to oranges comparison. ;)

Really though, I think the problem here is that the combat system is designed so poorly that fighting more than one guy at a time would be too difficult. I think the AI had to be crippled in order to accommodate the unresponsive combat design.

Finished up with an armchair analysis. ;)

Hehe, sorry for pointing this out. I just think there is too much anger and frustration with some people, just like the opposite is often true with fanboys (also such a trollish word ;)). I suppose it has something to do with the high expectations and anticipation these people had. In the end, it's just another game. If you don't want to spend 50,- then don't. At least I don't think it's all worthless. What game is worth spending that amount of money on these days?

[Jabberwocky]

Incedentally, I attacked three bandits sitting around a campfire last night, and TWO of them engaged me simultaneously. Gee, didn't see that one coming! I nearly got >insert sarcastic tone here< "my arse stomped!" ;)

[VPeric]

Let's see... you and a few of your friends get swords and decide to ambush someone else (:P). Now, when one of you starts swinging that sword like a madman, you're not exactly keen yourself to stand right next to him and maybe get cut yourself, aye?

And that's the way the AI thinks, too. :P

[txa1265]

I'm very much enjoying it ... but currently bogged down chasing some game that are a bit too 'shy' for my taste ... I will get #5 dammit! ;)

[bjon045]

Gothic 2 had horrendous AI if you took the time to exploit it.

I remember in the valley of the mines in chapter 2 you could lead 10-20+ orcs to the bridge that you have to walk up to get into the castle and as soon as they reach that point they all turn around and start walking back. Now all you have to do is stand exactly at that point and you can swing your sword and kill them all without being touched. About 10 free levels of experience after you clear out all the orcs....

I seem to NPC's getting stuck on objects easily as well, espically the bandits next to the lighthouse who get stuck in that little shed and then you can finish them off with a 2-hander by swinging "through" the wall.

How many people beat Bullco by trapping him behind a table and shooting arrows at him till he had almost no life left and then pulling out a sword and giving him one last tap to finish him off?

Certainly not the best AI i have come across, though certainly better than the pathfinding in NWN :)

[ToddMcF2002]

Speaking of trolling - its also trolling to have the audacity to compare G3 melee to Severance. I mean come on. I won't name the guilty party - you know who you are!

[JDR13]

Gothic 2 had horrendous AI if you took the time to exploit it.

I remember in the valley of the mines in chapter 2 you could lead 10-20+ orcs to the bridge that you have to walk up to get into the castle and as soon as they reach that point they all turn around and start walking back. Now all you have to do is stand exactly at that point and you can swing your sword and kill them all without being touched. About 10 free levels of experience after you clear out all the orcs....

I seem to NPC's getting stuck on objects easily as well, espically the bandits next to the lighthouse who get stuck in that little shed and then you can finish them off with a 2-hander by swinging "through" the wall.

How many people beat Bullco by trapping him behind a table and shooting arrows at him till he had almost no life left and then pulling out a sword and giving him one last tap to finish him off?

Certainly not the best AI i have come across, though certainly better than the pathfinding in NWN :)

Gothic 2 didn't have horrendous AI. You could say that about ANY game if you want to point out every single flaw. What would you say about the AI in Morrowind? Gothic 2 certainly had better AI than that game and didn't sell 1 tenth as many copies. There are AI exploits in every game I've ever played whether it was an rpg, fps, or strategy game. Compared to most games in the genre, the Gothic series has very good AI.

[Thaurin]

Gothic 2 didn't have horrendous AI. You could say that about ANY game if you want to point out every single flaw. What would you say about the AI in Morrowind? Gothic 2 certainly had better AI than that game and didn't sell 1 tenth as many copies. There are AI exploits in every game I've ever played whether it was an rpg, fps, or strategy game. Compared to most games in the genre, the Gothic series has very good AI.

Morrowind had AI? ;)

[curious]

you can call me a troll if you like. in fact a few days ago i thought that pretty much fit my description, since for years i would just 'wait under a bridge' watching people go by (post) and not say anything. though when i did commment it was benign and not for the sake of argument.

comparisons mean crap to me, i only care what i enjoy and i make them simply for explaining the similarities in two things i enjoy greatly. someone needs to take an into poetry class to understand the diffetence between similie and metaphor. i use metaphors all the time as they are one of language's greatest tools. i rarely use a similie to say that something is more than just 'like' or similar to something.

i loved blade of darkness from the begining(demo) just like the gothic series. and like in prior posts i care about the developers. i bought scrapland not because of what the game offered but because the people who made blade of darkness made it and will eventually by bad day la for the same reason. peoples' talent and creativity for design and storytelling is what draws me games. not what some review says, what the millions of gamers have to say, or what is marketed to me. i go see movies mainly based on who is directing it. i like bands whose musicians are involved with other musicians i have liked.

to me i see life as a tree where i can explore how all this creativity is connected to each other and understanding one part/branch helps you appreciate enjoy another.
i try not to be a consumer in a vast parking lot just looking for what shiny box i want to open next.

[ToddMcF2002]

Hey I was allowing you to stay annonymous! LOL. Look I too loved Severance/BoD - but I don't see how you can take such a sophisticated combat system and compare it to this... err... less sophisticated system.

But I'll entertain the discussion if you like. How is it similiar? Maybe I've missed some nuance, some.... subtely in G3 melee.

Joking aside - its possible, I only played the G3 demo for a half hour.

[lostnumber]

After reading a few comments about my previous post I feel as though it is now necessary to defend myself in order avoid being lumped into the same category as our former beloved VB. While it is obvious that my comments were made in a less than casual tone I would like to point out that they were not made to offend but simply to be humorous. So to begin….

Originally Posted by lostnumber

Doesn't anyone see a problem…?

Rhetorical questioning and putting words in one's mouth.

Rhetorical yes, but the only opinion here is my own. Just as much as anyone can answer yes they can answer no, either answer is acceptable under the context of the question.

...with the fact that all enemies kindly wait their turn to get their arses stomped?

Mocking AI rather than simply stating problems.

Fine, you got me there.

endless chain of clicks. [...] clicking my left mouse button about 200 times.

Exaggeration.

By no means is this an exaggeration. I cleared out all of Montera by simply running into the castle and climbing up a stairwell. Every hostile NPC followed me and waited their turn. A few hundred - and I do mean it - clicks later everyone who was able to reach me was dead. After that I ran downstairs and cleared out all of the stragglers who fell victim to path finding problems.

The friggin AI in Pac-man was better than that, the ghosts worked together sometimes.

Irrelevant apples to oranges comparison.

This depends on the level of analysis. If I was comparing the RPG aspects of G3 with the Arcade aspects of Pac-Man I wouldn't be writing this. In this case I am comparing the achievement of a goal, killing the player. The ghosts in Pac-Man would actually work together when trying and cut the player off, quite often they were successful. The hostile NPCs in G3 do nothing of this sort, maybe two will attack but this is due to a response from being targeted or hit with a wayward swing. Team tactics are limited to melee based assailants rushing and waiting while their ranged comrades hang back and attack; never mind the fact that simply hiding behind an obstruction or corner most often renders their support useless because they don't move. By a vast margin most of my deaths were a result of stun lock and not team tactics or enemy skill.

Really though, I think the problem here is that the combat system is designed so poorly that fighting more than one guy at a time would be too difficult. I think the AI had to be crippled in order to accommodate the unresponsive combat design.

Finished up with an armchair analysis.

This is not true by any stretch of the imagination. I came to this conclusion after playing nearly 9 hours a day for 2 weeks; needless to say I didn't get much sleep. Like it or not combat control in G3 is not as responsive is it was in the previous iterations of the Gothic series. Actions are queued and cannot be stopped once set in motion, rearward retreat is no longer possible, power strikes are slow and unwieldy, swings are relatively slow, and blocking is not as effective. Considering this lack of response it is only logical to conclude that defending one's self from two enemies at once would be very difficult, make it four enemies and it is neigh impossible. It is obvious that the developers built the enemy AI so that they wait their turn, if they never had this intention it wouldn't happen as often as it does. This conscious design decision had to be made for a reason. This brings me to my next point.

Let's see... you and a few of your friends get swords and decide to ambush someone else (:P). Now, when one of you starts swinging that sword like a madman, you're not exactly keen yourself to stand right next to him and maybe get cut yourself, aye?

And that's the way the AI thinks, too. :P

This makes sense, but if this was the intent behind blade wielding characters waiting for their turn to fight why do animals do the same? Scavengers, wolves, jackals, lurkers, snappers, and everything else follow the same combat dynamic. Wolves don’t carry swords, werewolves might, but the wolves in Gothic don’t. I have been bitten – playfully – by my dog and kicked by my grandma at the same time; neither my grandma nor my dog accidentally hit each other. (Just joking here, don’t get mad). Since the two competing theories behind the "waiting" problem are friendly fire avoidance and combat accommodation, and we just disproved the avoidance theory, we can only conclude that the accommodation theory is the *next best idea*. Keep in mind that we know the "waiting" problem was intentionally built into the game. I have a great deal of experience with this game and I took my time when thinking about what I wrote, it is not an armchair analysis.

Since when is being upset about something wrong? I never attacked anyone; I didn't curse anyone's mother. I though my approach was funny, not offensive. In the end though, I'm just upset because a great game with boundless potential was rushed along to completion and ended up hitting the market as an incomplete product bearing the facade of an exemplary representation of what we as gamers demand. As I've said before, when considered in isolation G3 is an average game, but as a Gothic fan I can't consider this game in isolation. G1 and G2 set standards, standards that were not met by G3 in my book.

[txa1265]

I am very much enjoying the G3 combat, but as I said, I consider Dark Messiah more along the lines of Blade of Darkness. That was a disappointment with Dungeon Lords (yep, it comes up again) - DWB claimed the combat as a blend of Blade of Darkness of Jedi Knight II ... but the result was woefully beneath either.

[ToddMcF2002]

I am very much enjoying the G3 combat, but as I said, I consider Dark Messiah more along the lines of Blade of Darkness. That was a disappointment with Dungeon Lords (yep, it comes up again) - DWB claimed the combat as a blend of Blade of Darkness of Jedi Knight II ... but the result was woefully beneath either.

Holy CRAP Bradley said that?!!!?? Oh that is rich! Now I'm off to print out lostnumber's post. Its so damn long I'll take it with me to the hopper.

[curious]

how far did you get in the game lostnumber? after montera there is no way you can easily clear a town. don't forget that shamans are in every orc town after that and like goblin shamans unless you have excellent fire protection 3 shots will kill you at any level. also there are a lot more enemies equiped with bows/crossbows later in the game and they don't take they turn and you can get fired at from all directions while getting swung at. yes there are exploits, but as someone mentioned all gothic games have had exploits so to use those as an example wouldn't really matter.

since you can't see how a beast is holding his weapon or about to swing wouldn't it be hard to tell if 2 were going to charge you at the same time. or what if one charged you right as you swung would another beast who charged a split second later contiune its lunge once your sword had already been thrust. as a hunter/warrior i loved the challenge(to me at least) of picking of one or two with a bow then drawing my sword and going at one beast while the others surrounded me and then being able to fight one beast and then switch behind me to another and so on. i would agrue that some animals are going to have a level of self preservation to and will wait for their opportunity. especially canines. when they are in feeding mode they are very selfish creatures and will attack someone who is normally friendly. many dogs for instance don't like to be petted while eating, especially when really hungry. if you have 2 dogs their is a relationship/understanding that one dog 'teaches' another to stay away from the bowl of food that is 'his' and will growl 'til the other dog gets it. so unless the other dog is stronger it will wait for its opportunity of find some food of its own.

oh and lostnumber i value your intelligence and don't think you or anyone else resembeles viking beserker, despite the fact that we definately have some differing views.

[curious]

oh and to me a challenge when liberating a town is also keeping as many slaves alive as possible, which most certainly requires stategy, not to mention 'friends' if you have any in that town.

[lostnumber]

I've cleared each town in Myrtana including the ocrs surrounding the barrier. I also gave it to a few of the hashishin (SP?) towns along their northern border. After that and a HD crash I threw in the towel. All told, I spent about 80 hours playing the game.

The comment about the AI was made to point out that every melee based hostile adheres to the same set of rules. Orcs, humans, wolves, and gargoyles all do the same thing. It is very unlikely that they all have their own mutually exclusive reasons for acting like one another. Although I wouldn't recommend it, I can guarantee that if anyone were run into the middle of a pack of lions while brandishing a sword they would not be given the luxury of one on one combat, to put it simply they would be killed. This combined with the aforementioned argument should help to clarify my point.

Ranged combatants, excluding goblin shaman, are fairly easy to dispatch. I've killed dragons at a very low level with little effort. I just shot at them from behind cover and they sat there and took it. They didn't resituate themselves to regain an attack vector and they didn't take cover. They just sat there and waited for me to stick my head out each time I shot at them, in the end their dimwitted patience spelled their death.

Yes all Gothic games have had exploits. In G1 the player could just tap the strafe key to aviod a falling death, in G2 the player could defeat the besieging orcs by luring them to the battering ram, and in G3 the player can use inventory items endlessly by hitting the inventory key immediately after consuming an item. Many games have exploits, but an exploit is an unintentional exception to a rule, not the rule itself. The rules governing combat in G3 are not exploits; they are just the result of poor a design.

Thanks for not lumping me in the same category as VB.

[curious]

have you played since and applied patch 1.09. i too was having seriously crashes once my character got past level 50+. i've only had one crash this time through on my new character.

i've seen all these comments about piranha bytes promissing us things and not deliver. if anyone can show me these i would be suprised. not meeting expectations is something altogether entirely. i will close my comments on this topic with this.

the world would be a lot happier place if people didn't complain as much. if you place a value of happiness on someones dissatisfaction voiced when they recieved something that they are not completely satisfied; who then voices their unhappiness on whoever sold/gave/served them this product; the complainer is unhappy and is caused a loss of happiness, even if what they desire is and can be corrected; the giver is caused unhappiness by having to fix the problem, and possibly guilt; on lookers and anyone who is told of these happening will also take a 'hit' to there happiness or overall positive feelings.

obviously it is necessary to complain throughout life. the choice is up to the complainer though, and i feel that because we live in a world where we can have pretty much anything, many of us think that it is our right to "have it our way".
i realize i may be on the extreme, for example, if i am at a resturant and my order gets messed up i most likely will say don't worry about it, unless it is something i can't or find disgusting to eat. on the other extreme others would complain if they normally get 'x' amount of 'y' when this time they got 'x-1' amount of 'y' even though 'x' is not specified on the menu.

i just don't think it is fair to complain at pirahhna bytes to the end that 'you' are. constructive critism only ever works when someone is asking for feedback, an even then its like sifting for gold.

gothic 3 is not mine, yours or anybodies. it belongs to the hard working people at piranha bytes. every 'problem' you voice is a 'knock' at their hard work. i have had things i didn't like about all the gothic games, and i still hold the first game as probably the best in many regards. if this behavior makes me a rabid fan or fan boy or whatever title you want to call it fine. but i would rather be a blind follower of pirahna bytes than a rabin fan of 'what i want' in a game.

[Jabberwocky]

@ Lost Number: Your comments neither upset me or offended me at all concerning your take on G3. That alone keeps you WELL out of VB's catagory, who's every post did both of those things :lol: ! Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that even more after finding out you have spent considerable time with the game.
In fact, I would be much more inclined to listen to YOUR feelings on the matter than someone who has only spent half an hour playing the demo, and yet has been one of the most vocal complainers about the game on this forum for weeks now! (I shall leave names out of this, but you know who you are ;) )

As for Curious' psychoanalysis of our complaining nature: I think he was trying to say that we make what we want of things. For instance, you can look at the bad AI and say "That's stupid," or you can use your imagination to reason out the behaviour - thus come the ideas of "he didn't want to get hit by his own Orc buddy" or "the hungry wolf wanted me all to himself."

I choose to use my imagination to make up for design flaws and continue enjoying the game. Some people don't.
Whether you or I think that the glass is half empty or half full... it's still the same amount in the glass. Can't we all just get along then? :D

[ToddMcF2002]

@ Lost Number: Your comments neither upset me or offended me at all concerning your take on G3. That alone keeps you WELL out of VB's catagory, who's every post did both of those things :lol: ! Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that even more after finding out you have spent considerable time with the game.
In fact, I would be much more inclined to listen to YOUR feelings on the matter than someone who has only spent half an hour playing the demo, and yet has been one of the most vocal complainers about the game on this forum for weeks now! (I shall leave names out of this, but you know who you are ;) )


What can I say - it only took 3-4 minutes to dislike the combat - which they dropped me in the middle of. It took another 3 minutes to see that it ran pretty poorly and another 5 or so to witness stability issues.

I think a half hour was generous!

[Corwin]

Unfortunately, half an hour with this game is totally insufficent to be able to judge it!! Heck, I enjoyed the first 30 mins of DL!! :)

[ToddMcF2002]

Unfortunately, half an hour with this game is totally insufficent to be able to judge it!! Heck, I enjoyed the first 30 mins of DL!! :)

Now that is an interesting observation. I can't say I liked the first 30 minutes of Dungeon Lords, but I didnt hate it either. That took several hours.

Reverse that and you've got a great point. Even some reviewers have pointed out that you need to give the game a hunk of time until you get hooked.

Ironically, that is exactly the advise I give to people who want to try Gothic 2. Give it 5 hours or don't bother trying it at all.

OK I'll give it a whirl.

[Jabberwocky]

@ ToddMcF2002: Hey, I gave you an opportunity to remain anonymous! :lol:

[Thaurin]

lostnumber, I need to assure you that I found your posts non-offensive-- I just think that for a lot of people it is, as a fan of the series, inevitable to have their voiced opinions laced with emotional flavouring. It's like you said: you consider Gothic 3 with your previous experiences of Gothic 1 and 2 in mind, so you are more harsh to it than you would have been if you considered it individually. I see the same behaviour in people when they see a book they love transitioned to the silver screen or when hardcore Star Wars fans watch Episode One. I think many of these people could enjoy the product a lot more if they just took it the way it was without all the extra baggage.

This is how fanboyism and long tirades against developers are born. Anyway, just my opinion. I enjoyed the game so far, but admittedly, I haven't played for dozens of hours yet.

EDIT: @curious, interesting way to look at things and I agree with a lot of that. Reminds me of this ancient Greek stoic philosopher Epictetus. Complaining hardly ever accomplishes anything if the damage has already been done. Rather, make the most out of it or be constructive about it.

[ToddMcF2002]

@ ToddMcF2002: Hey, I gave you an opportunity to remain anonymous! :lol:

I don't mind being called out for my bs! ;)

[Jabberwocky]

Reminds me of this ancient Greek stoic philosopher Epictetus.

I thought that was "EpiCurious" Ha ha :lol: