Why i love Gothic 3 and hate Oblivion

[Gokyabgu]

As a Gothic fan i really love Gothic 3 and hate Oblivion. I think of it why? Here is the answers:
1) Like traditional RPG games, monsters in Gothic 3 have their own level and they do not level with you (Unlike Oblivion where monsters level are determined according to your level). So, you can not go wherever you want with Level 1 character. This gives the player the urge to develop his character to see new locations and solve new quests.
2) Monsters do not spawn in Gothic 3. Cleaning areas from monsters gives the player strong feeling of progress.
3) As a personal taste, i always prefer counting my XP point to a skill base system.
4) Finally, Gothic series' biggest strength is that they can give the player to advance in society and you feel your stature in society in every aspect of the game; something Oblivion can not achieve I'm afraid.

[txa1265]

3) As a personal taste, i always prefer counting my XP point to a skill base system.

I agree - although the 'use to progress' system is inherently more logical.

I liked Morrowind and Oblivion, though neither are in my 'personal top 25' games. Gothic 2 is definitely in my top 5. I got my call from EBGames that my Gothic 3 should be in-store this afternoon ...

[Corwin]

Guess we won't see you for awhile!! :) I should pick up NWN2 tomorrow as well, but after all this time, I'm still only halfway through G3. I play very slowly and thoroughly!!

[bjon045]

1) Like traditional RPG games, monsters in Gothic 3 have their own level and they do not level with you (Unlike Oblivion where monsters level are determined according to your level). So, you can not go wherever you want with Level 1 character. This gives the player the urge to develop his character to see new locations and solve new quests.


The monsters do actually level with the character, it's just they have max levels they can achieve if I am not mistaken. For example a wolf might max out at level 10 meanwhile an orc might go up to 30. I think the Gothic system is optimal as well (short of creating hundreds of different monsters).


4) Finally, Gothic series' biggest strength is that they can give the player to advance in society and you feel your stature in society in every aspect of the game; something Oblivion can not achieve I'm afraid.

I thought oblivion handled this quite well, that NPC's reacted to you in many different ways, like people would call you the Grey Fox once you master the thieves guild and wear his hood. The major problem oblivion had was that every bloody NPC had the same bland conversation options - although you did normally get feedback when you complete a quest for them - I don't see how gothic is any different that this.

[ToddMcF2002]

These advantages exist for Gothic 1 and 2 as well. I know I've said it before, but Oblivion is vastly improved by Obscuro's Oblivion Overhaul - it was designed to address these very issues. It doesnt quite reach the static levels you've got in the Gothic series but its a great start.

[Sepulchrave]

While Oscuro did help make Oblivion a better game it didn't address the problems that bugged me the most. It made the combat harder and more fun, but it didn't address the fact that there were no real consequences to your actions. You could join the thieves guild and make a promise not to kill and then go and join the Dark Brotherhood and slaughter people to your hearts content. Or a pure mage, who never used a weapon once in the game, should probably not be running the fighter's guild. Which makes me wonder with this Knights of the Nine if it'll be possible to be both a knight and a Dark Brotherhood member at the same time since it seems they are supposed to be polar opposites. At least with the Gothic series if you were a Paladin you couldn't be a mercenary and vice versa. There are some limitations to what you can and cannot do.

[ShadowMoses]

I agree - although the 'use to progress' system is inherently more logical.


Untill you get players that bunny hop up and down mountains all day! ;)

[txa1265]

Untill you get players that bunny hop up and down mountains all day! ;)

I didn't say it worked better in practice :D

It is like in Mage Knight Apocalypse - everything levels up through use, but it brings other stats with it. For example, I was a spellcaster who rarely engaged in melee yet would watch my strength keep increasing ...

[bjon045]

A paladin in Gothic 2 can kill as many people as he wants and steal as much as he wants as well...

[txa1265]

A paladin in Gothic 2 can kill as many people as he wants and steal as much as he wants as well...

Sort of ... theft is a crime in Gothic, as is murder. Corrupted Paladin's can do that - the game doesn't do any sort of 'fallen' designation. But if you are role-playing at all you won't be doing that - or maybe you will. But unlike in Oblivion, where you can waltz into someone's house and steal all of their stuff while they stand there staring at you ... in Gothic it actually matters, people care about their stuff.

[ToddMcF2002]

Actually, in NoTR you'd be screwed by Vatras for such a rampage.

[LordRac]

it didn't address the fact that there were no real consequences to your actions. You could join the thieves guild and make a promise not to kill and then go and join the Dark Brotherhood and slaughter people to your hearts content. Or a pure mage, who never used a weapon once in the game, should probably not be running the fighter's guild.

Agreed. This was my biggest gripe with Oblivion, the open-ended gameplay made every character a jack-of-all-trades, with no real penalty for trying new things.

After I saw what the reward was for completing the main quest I stopped playing. It felt like it was tacked on at the last minute by the developers.

[txa1265]

After I saw what the reward was for completing the main quest I stopped playing. It felt like it was tacked on at the last minute by the developers.

There was a main quest? Crap I knew I missed something ...

[ToddMcF2002]

There was a main quest? Crap I knew I missed something ...

OK you asked for it! How is killing 4 dragons in any order any better than closing 8 gates in any order?

[curious]

because there weren't 2 dozen other secondary dragons flying around that didn't matter

[txa1265]

OK you asked for it! How is killing 4 dragons in any order any better than closing 8 gates in any order?

Personally I liked the wandering around doing miscellaneous junk in Oblivion best - I don't consider it 'story driven' in any regard.

The interesting thing is that with Gothic 3 being much looser in that regard now it is being criticized for some of the same things that Oblivion was praised about ... or in the case of Gothic fans, there is praise for G3 where Oblivion was criticized ;)

[ToddMcF2002]

because there weren't 2 dozen other secondary dragons flying around that didn't matter

And yet G2 has 4 dozen orcs and 2 dozen lizard men that don't matter. Granted they are fun to kill...

[curious]

but there swords matter, escpecially when you get all the paladins to wield them. i am hoping for some lizard men in the addon, with some backstory. maybe there are some peaceful lizardmen who worship adanos.

[Dez]

Aren't the lizzardmen in the service of beliar? After all paladin magic hurted them, so they are "evil" creatures, not neutral.

[curious]

yes they were in prior gothics but as we know the orcs on khorinis were of a differernt culture than the ones on the mainland. i was mearly stating/hoping that in an addon we get to see some vast jungles/ or islands (such as the southern islands) which realistically could inhabit some aquatic humaniods which worship adanos. so maybe their might be some different lizard people, or another race/species altogether. it is inevitable that if the gothic series conitues they will proabably add some other race, at the least to expand story possibilities.

[Neo]

ToddMc, the storyline of Oblivion, at the part where you must destroy the 8 gates, everything during that quest is almost exactly the same. The only differences are that the quest-givers have other names, and that they wear other colors. The parts inside oblivion, are practically the same, except for a few minor changes inside Oblivion.

In G2, however, each dragon had his own place/minions, and required another way to reach. The fire dragon was holed up in a mountain, the stone dragon in his fortress guarded by harpies. The environments were different. And then there is the thing that the 4 dragons were incluced in only 1 quest, and that means that even if it was rather the same, it didn't matter that much. In oblivion, you get 8 different quests, who are all the same and require the same... tactics?

[Bigpapa]

Agreed, but i enjoyed to play both Oblivion and Morrowind as much as i did with Gothic series, sure them all had some disapointments, but nothing so bad that i would have been pissed off about them. All we need is more games like these :)

[Corwin]

I agree, more games like G3 would be great!!

[txa1265]

I agree, more games like G3 would be great!!

Just more polished, please ;)

[JemyM]

I have played through every quest in Oblivion, Gothic 3 and NWN2. It have been a good rpg year. I will probably check out the new Oblivion expansion Knights of the Nine.

I personally prefer G3 to both Oblivion and NWN2, but all three gave me a good time.

[hwfanatic]

I agree, more games like G3 would be great!!
More games like G1 or G2 would be even better. Personally I don't consider G3 to be a very good representative of the series.

[Obthic3]

Hi @ all in this Forum.
First of all I want to say, that I really love both Series TES and Gothic.

When Oblivion was released most of the People said "Best RPG at the moment" and asked "Can Gothic 3 beat Oblivion?"
I wondered WHY anyone could think about comparing this 2RPG Series.
TES always had really BIIIG Worlds and you were always free to do WHATEVER you like.
Kill the whole world? No problem! (in Oblivion you weren't able to kill Mainq-chars - in Morrowind you were able to do that...)
Be "the one" and rescue the world? No problem!
You want to be in the mage's guild but also in the warriors? No problem! Join all guilds!
Do not care about the "Mainquest" and only explore the world? No problem!
In addition the "leveling-system" was, like you mentioned "level it by using".
With Oblivion they made some very good changes from Morrowind.
For example every dialogue was spoken - in Morrowind sometimes you read up to one hour only a conversation between you and a character. And the complete world looked better than in Morrowind -> the desert in the north of Morrowind with the 7/24 Sandstorm....1h running through it and you think about suicide..^^
Choose your charakter - they all have different attributes and class-abilities...and animal-chars had problems in the world with racism...nice idea
-> The mainquests are only one storyline...not the best, not the worst...only qs...and when you finished them (in oblivion) the game was not over...it had NO end!

Gothic Series were focused on large (not BIIIIIG^^) worlds, but all "hand-made" the world looks more realistic and you had many cool details.
You always had to choose between factions (g1 = new, old and swamp camp; g2 = rebels, mages, paladins; g3 rebels, orks, slavehunters) - take care what you are doing for/against the factions.
G1 + 2 had "act"s and they followed a Mainstoryline. Within the acts you could do whatever you want, but you MUST finish the mainquest to get further and to the end of the game.
Leveling through killing enemies and getting exp...and "buying" a better character with it.

In my oppinion you can't compare TES with G1 +2 (and NotR). Thats why I was wondering about all the people who wanted/hoped that Gothic 3 is "better" than Oblivion.

Now that I played G3 i must say...G3 is a very, very good game, but it is more a Golivion or Obthic3 (thats why i took this name...)
Piranha Bytes WANTED at first priority (maybe because of the media - I don't know) to create a >better< game than Oblivion and only in second priority to make the new Gothic - a Gothic 3.

Why I am saying this?
The world of Gothic is BIIIIG very big, its nice, but with this comes a problem which Gothic never had before and people criticised at TES....all the dungeons and most of the houses were looking the same....in gothic3 you can see this too....i personally hated all the buildings in nordmar...they looked all like clones.
And many dungeons have the same structure...
In the former Gothics every person in the world was somehow connected and had a story (ok, ok not the patrols in towns and camps...) but now with the "liberation" of towns....after that you have so much connetion to the new members of a town like to a person you never knew it was born....the liberation is a nice idea but lacks a little bit after liberating :/
And the biggest problem in Gothic3 is that you are "free to do whatever you want"....the Mainstory...hmm what was that?!...hmmm think one of the questseries in this game which leads to the end....video? Hmm no they had no time....what a pitty...the mainstory was always the best of the game... :(



As a Gothic fan i really love Gothic 3 and hate Oblivion. I think of it why? Here is the answers:

If you hate it, don't play it...


1) Like traditional RPG games, monsters in Gothic 3 have their own level and they do not level with you (Unlike Oblivion where monsters level are determined according to your level). So, you can not go wherever you want with Level 1 character. This gives the player the urge to develop his character to see new locations and solve new quests.

There you talked about the most critical point in Oblivion, the new monsterlveveling and determining of monsters is a very good option that the player can go wherever he want and do whatever he likes. Not everyone likes it, but hey that's life...
But with this system Bethesda made some mistakes:
1) Friendly NPCs have a static lvl....critical if you want to do a helping q at lvl 30+...the NPCs die with 1 or 2 hits -.-
2) The balancing problem...if you "poverlevel" only attributes which won't help you kill enemies (acrobatics, alchemy, smithing) the game will be hard, because enemies are stronger and stronger, but you still can't fight - on the other side...if you only level attributes for fighting the game is "too easy".
3) It is not very realistic to see only goblins and wolves at the beginning of the game and later on as a real hero only see deadra princes, xivilai and ancestor ghosts at the same locations


2) Monsters do not spawn in Gothic 3. Cleaning areas from monsters gives the player strong feeling of progress.

Another point that some poeple like and other don't like....i personally don't think that it is realistic that you kill everything in an area and 30days later there is still everything dead - but the way Oblivion chose is not better too...you can kill and kill and kill...you never see less mobs.
->There I would prefer something like in Sacred...if you "pacify" an area, that less mobs spawn..or that it takes longer. Or like in Sacred 2: on streets and ways enemies won't respawn, but in deep forests and in the wilderness.


3) As a personal taste, i always prefer counting my XP point to a skill base system.

Like you said "personal". For me...I don't care if I get xp and "buy" my character or if I level him through using things....both are nice ideas and have their (dis-)advantages.


4) Finally, Gothic series' biggest strength is that they can give the player to advance in society and you feel your stature in society in every aspect of the game; something Oblivion can not achieve I'm afraid.


Yes there you are right, thats one of the biggest strengths of Gothic series and is very well done in G3 too - there Oblivion is not that good as Gothic is.


But another fact where you can see that the guys at P.Byte put themselves under pressure....the huge amount of bugs in the release version of Gothic and that still (with patch 1.09) a Perk, some People and Master-Trainers are missing and the questlog is a complete horror...the same s*** like the diary in Morrowind :/
I don't know if we have to blame P.Byte and their beta-testers or if we have to blame Jowood who wanted to release the game. But in fact Oblivion was well playable when it was released :(


I don't want to blame anyone and hope I haven't forgotten anything I wanted to say :D

For people who read my whole post...thanks for having the patience...to all others: sorry that it is that long....was not intended :D


Greetings


PS: And the best quest i know so far is the painting-q in Oblivion =D


Edit: Ah what I really really miss in G3 are the nice possibilities for answering...now you have most of the time only one or the rebel, the orc or the slavehunter - answer....not the yes, the no and the "shut up" ,)

[Corwin]

Welcome to the The Watch forums. Your points are well made and sound; I hope to see you posting a lot more here!! I agree, the 2 games are different, with different goals and really shouldn't be compared. I like different things in each and dislike others, but both were worth the money I spent on them!!

[Bartacus]

Although I personally think Gothic 3 is a bit better then Oblivion, there's at least one thing Oblivion did better. The menu to controll all your inventory (I mean maps, character info, the whole thing) was way better in Oblivion. I mostly dislike the fact that you don't have the smaller maps from towns. In Gothic 1 and 2, you were still able to buy those things if you wanted them.

[Maylander]

My biggest issue with Oblivion is how the world itself is made in glass and so easily breaks.

- "The demons are attacking, you have to save us NOW!!! .. or do whatever you want for as long as you want". And my roleplaying world completely shatters.
- Average bandits being powerful enough to easily overwhelm any city because they wear complete sets of demonic armor. And yet again, my roleplaying world shatters.
- Never any actual consequences in the world. A world without consequences is the fantasy world of a child - I find it hard to roleplay where nothing ever has an effect.

The Gothic games all have their problems, but at the very least the world has a high roleplay value for me, as it is constructed in a solid way where the illusion won't shatter as easily as that of Oblivion.

[Cormac]

My biggest issue with Oblivion is how the world itself is made in glass and so easily breaks.

- "The demons are attacking, you have to save us NOW!!! .. or do whatever you want for as long as you want". And my roleplaying world completely shatters.

Gothic 2 had a similar moment: at one time you go to the valley of mines and singlehandedly wipe out the orc army besieging a force of elite paladins, and the paladins do nothing; I guess they're enjoying the show, placing bets, etc.

I love both games, that's how big my catholic heart is, but I agree that the Gothics offer more in terms of roleplaying.

[Maylander]

Yes, Gothic definetly has certain such points as well, but in Oblivion they just keep on coming - whenever I get over one point and the roleplaying illusion is building up again, I come across some new point where it all crumbles back down.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Corrupted Paladin's can do that - the game doesn't do any sort of 'fallen' designation.

Maybe that's kind of an misunderstanding ? Thousands of gamers used to the D&D ruleset expecting a Paladin to become "fallen" and then wondering why there are no consequences ?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Piranha Bytes WANTED at first priority (maybe because of the media - I don't know) to create a >better< game than Oblivion and only in second priority to make the new Gothic - a Gothic 3.

Sounds very reasonable ! It puts down in words what I had intuitively felt all of the time ! Respect !
(Not saying this statement is true or false - it just *feels* true for me, and I trust my intuition *very much* !)



2) The balancing problem...if you "poverlevel" only attributes which won't help you kill enemies (acrobatics, alchemy, smithing) the game will be hard, because enemies are stronger and stronger, but you still can't fight - on the other side...if you only level attributes for fighting the game is "too easy".

This is currently being discussed in a thread at Larian about the world and how fighting should take place.

I'd like to quote this there.

But another fact where you can see that the guys at P.Byte put themselves under pressure....the huge amount of bugs in the release version of Gothic and that still (with patch 1.09) a Perk, some People and Master-Trainers are missing and the questlog is a complete horror...the same s*** like the diary in Morrowind :/
I don't know if we have to blame P.Byte and their beta-testers or if we have to blame Jowood who wanted to release the game. But in fact Oblivion was well playable when it was released :(

And of course this puts a very bad light onto German developers. "They are only able to release buggy games" ... Someone actually said to me that many foreign publishers tend to believe so (that's how I have it in my memory).

The thing seems to be that Pyranha Bytes experimented too much and began too late with the assemblage of everything (worst example : The reasons why they didn't put women into the game. What I read as statements from them just sounds incredible to me).