Drakensang - Review @ IGN

[Dhruin]

IGN has posted a three-page review (http://pc.ign.com/articles/956/956364p1.html) of Drakensang - the first major English site to do so. The execution is generally praised, although the reviewer found some aspects generic and the pause-based combat underwhelming:
Yes, it's unfortunate that the basic ideas are somewhat generic but the real disappointment is that they're used in a generic way. A scholarly wizard who accidentally causes a catastrophe because he's too focused on his studies? Yep, that's here. How about an overconfident rogue who constantly has to talk himself out of complicated situations with women and legal authorities? That's here too. When he's finally arrested for the one crime that he didn't commit, it's like, okay, I get it.
On the plus side, the story itself is well written, much more so than is usually the case with translated games. The situations are believable and handled in a way that engages your interest and encourages your sympathy. Whether you're simply offering a job to an old friend's servant or trying to soothe the anger of a vengeful and tortured elven spirit, there's a lot of emotional weight behind the quests and missions. You won't find quite as much freedom of choice as you would in, say Oblivion or Fable, but you do get a few chances here and there to pick sides or attitudes in a certain encounter.
Thanks, Avantenor!
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=11447)

[Grandor Dragon]

What's the deal with not putting up your own screenshots? Screenshots show the actual engine, but do either not include the user interface, or an old version of it (as evident by the old portraits). I wonder why IGN should decide to do that. It makes them less credible.

[Grandor Dragon]

One picture even says "location01" next to the map.

[Avantenor]

Some old screenshots from the dtp press server.

[Dhruin]

I'm not sure if IGN are feeling the credit crunch and got rid of all their copy editors but there are a number of typos and the author hasn't used their style guide (constant use of "I", for example). With that in mind, using old screens seems in keeping with the rest.

[txa1265]

I know there has been consolidation in their network ... which is the kind way of saying more work spread among fewer people.

[Grandor Dragon]

Other than that, I am surprised by the quality of the review. It is not just that it represents most of my views. It is just obvious that the reviewer put some thought into this. I agree with his point that he might not have criticised transparency if he had already known the pen&paper version, and mentioned D&D. I had no problems at all understanding what Drakensang is doing rule-wise, but for a long time, D&D games were not very clear to me.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

You do realize that this game is not about D&D but TDE instead ?

[Grandor Dragon]

?

Of course.

[Grandor Dragon]

Ah okay, I get it. Let me rephrase:

"I agree with his point that he might not have criticised transparency if he had already known the pen&paper version of TDE. He also mentioned D&D games which he finds very transparent because he knows the pen&paper version.

I had no problems at all understanding what Drakensang is doing rule-wise, but for a long time, D&D games were not very clear to me."

:)

[Avantenor]

Honestly, I am a little bit surprised. But not on the negative side. He also could have easily dammned the whole thing totally. It's not difficult to find arguments against the game and ignore the good things. It depends a little bit on your attitude if you give it a thumbs up or down. Regarding that there is no TDE lobby on the international market and I think there is a slight difference in the roleplay mentality between US and GER, it's imho a positive result. There have been german games that had even worse results, without a real cause.

[elikal]

7.6 is a bit too harsh IMO. Drakensang would have deserved an 8+ rating. I didnt find the combat so uncomfortable. You must know, they went quite a way ahead from the really detailled, slow paced pen and paper combat The Dark Eye has. Dark Eye is way less combat oriented as D&D, hence they just could not turn it entirely upside down. Most Dark Eye purists already found combat too action oriented for their sake, so its a very good balance between the original and the needs for a computer game. A review should have taken that into consideration.

Also, freedom... yeah sure Oblivion had more, but at the expense of story density. When I see what trash got a 7, I feel Drakensang easily would deserve an 8 rating.

[Grandor Dragon]

Drakensang ist good, sometimes very good. It is not a revelation or anything. 7.6 is a fair score. It is only unfair in comparison to some hype machine reviews out there. Some games simply did not deserve their high scores.

[Avantenor]

I would also give an 8+. But I think 7.6 is the best, DraSa could get from a mainstream site like IGN. I guess Gamespot will not be so reluctant. It's simply personal taste. For germany, TDE is known to nearly all fantasy fans. If they didn't play it, at least they heart of it or know someone who played it. There are some nostalgic memories, and that's okay. It's a german product, just like The Witcher is polish and Nightwatch is russian. For the rest there is not that nostalgic element and they can only rate the facts. If you can't connect anything with TDE besides Realms of Arkania and do have games like NWN or Mass Effect in mind, the content of Drakensang is above average, but not overwhelming. It simply lacks some comfort and a little bit overall interaction, and if your not familiar with the game world the nostalgia doesn't work. Also there is a Zeitgeist, and that taste says "we want high epic fantasy, bombastic spell effects and various magic items a lot". TDE ignores that fact and therefor appears to be a little bit oldschool

Overall dtp / Radon Labs can call themselves lucky that they indeed got a review from IGN so close to the release. Sometimes IGN doesn't even care for foreign games. It's better to get any solid review and to be mentioned somewhere it really matters than having no review at all. That's an argument for investors to spend money and giving Radon Labs the chance make it even better the next time.

[rune_74]

See this is the sad state that both indie as well as foriegn rpg makers(aside from the witcher) face in a western dominated review by advertising budget....

I wonder if they had bought ads if the score would have gone up 1 point.

[Melvil]

I dunno, if I were to write a review based on the demo it would have been around the 7 to 8 area. Good visuals, interesting stat driven char dev (though I hear the conversation options are a little pointless), party based, somewhat tactical battles, but overall the combination of the above didn't wow me really. The character interaction for example seemed a little juvenile.

Hopefully the full version matures after the opening area you are just plopped into hehe.

[rune_74]

I heard that it does actually and the start is the wprst part.

[ikbenrichard]

I heard that it does actually and the start is the wprst part.

what do you mean?
After the beginning it gets better?

I sure gonne play this game, love this stuff !

[Gorath]

I was the one who spread this info, I think.
IMHO the game gets clearly better when the main story starts and you get your own house in the rich district in Ferdok. The beginning is too slow for me. Sort of like an overlong tutorial.

[rune_74]

Yes, at least thats what the german people who played it said....

[TheMadGamer]

See this is the sad state that both indie as well as foriegn rpg makers(aside from the witcher) face in a western dominated review by advertising budget....

When it comes to American reviews of foreign RPG my interest in a game has an inverse relationship to a declining score.

The lower the score, the more interested I become.

Past games like Gothic, Arx Fatalis, and Divine Divinity scored mostly low to mediocre scores in the American press. So the lesson there is that those reviewers don't know what the hell they're talking about.

So the reviews are still useful.

One interesting item to note about the review is really no mention of bugs... most reviews of rpgs spend about 1/3 to half of their review on the subject of bugs.

[ikbenrichard]

When it comes to American reviews of foreign RPG my interest in a game has an inverse relationship to a declining score.

The lower the score, the more interested I become.

Past games like Gothic, Arx Fatalis, and Divine Divinity scored mostly low to mediocre scores in the American press. So the lesson there is that those reviewers don't know what the hell they're talking about.

So the reviews are still useful.
.

i toally agree, and believe it or not, but i was thinking the same thing !!
glad to hear more pople think this way.

[Thrasher]

That's not thinking. That's reacting.

BTW when I google "TDE" I get nothing. Where are the rules for TDE documented on the internet? Hopefully in English, otherwise, nevermind...

[Turjan]

The lower the score, the more interested I become.
I wouldn't go that far ;). Some of those games really are lemons. But that's what sites like this are for: separate the wheat from the chaff.

What irks me is the often complete disinterest I meet as soon as European titles are mentioned. I post at another more or less gaming-centered forum with lots of people who play a wide range of games, with a stress on RPGs (both tabletop and computer). Even there, when I mention a European title, there's usually no reaction. Or, in the best case, a nasty remark regarding the localization.

[Brother None]

BTW when I google "TDE" I get nothing. Where are the rules for TDE documented on the internet? Hopefully in English, otherwise, nevermind...

They're not. You can buy the rulebooks translated at some spots, but I never found a good introductory guide in translation.

I've written one that will hopefully be helpful for GB. It'll be around in a while, I sure hope it will serve the curious.

[wolfing]

That's not thinking. That's reacting.

BTW when I google "TDE" I get nothing. Where are the rules for TDE documented on the internet? Hopefully in English, otherwise, nevermind...

Well, it is copyright material so don't think you'll find the rules in the Internet (at least through legal means). In the case of D&D 3rd edition it was different, since they made public the d20 rules. That's not the norm.
You can read a bit about the rules here in the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye

[Turjan]

BTW when I google "TDE" I get nothing. Where are the rules for TDE documented on the internet? Hopefully in English, otherwise, nevermind...
They sold an English version of the basic rules some years ago, but the game flopped. It didn't help that the basic rules didn't contain the magic rules. They are still available as pdf (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=744&it=1), plus an adventure product and the game world (Aventuria). That's about it.

Edit: I'm slow :).

[Thrasher]

Thanks! Looks pretty skimpy online. I can't play a game without knowing the rules. It's too tedious otherwise.

[Turjan]

Does this mean there is nothing in the manual?

[Thrasher]

Based on the review, that's what it sounds like.

[Gorath]

The majority of the formulae can be found in the game. Right-clicking on something on the character sheet will often explain which formula is used and which values are the basis.

The German manual was pretty good, it explained ca. 80-90% of what you needed to know. I suppose the English manual is based on it.

[wolfing]

<snip>
One interesting item to note about the review is really no mention of bugs... most reviews of rpgs spend about 1/3 to half of their review on the subject of bugs.
Well, there probably aren't many, specially of the game-stopping type. Remember this game has been out in Germany for several months, so they probably fixed them before we got the game (thanks germans!). If anything you'll probably just find typos and translation errors.

[Gorath]

There wasn't much to fix. It even seems patch 1.02 created more bugs than it fixed. ;)

[stefan9]

I really enjoyed the demo. Will certainly be importing this game from either the US or the UK. Will there be any differences between the two like there was with the witcher or is it the same game for both regions??

[Thrasher]

Fewer naughty bits?

[TheMadGamer]

That's not thinking. That's reacting.

The whole point of a review is to elicit a reaction by the reader so shrug. Just pointing out that my reaction tends to have an opposite effect as a score goes down when reviewed by an American reviewer.

The reason for this is because American reviewers judge a game heavily on its polish, its accessibility, and game controls. Not that these aren't important, but a lot of the 'foreign' RPGs released in the last 5 or so years have been really great aside from polish, accessibility, and game controls.

To make an analogy. Say I write a term paper. But it is full of spelling errors and grammatical mistakes.

Some people will focus heavily on the misspellings and grammatical errors while mostly ignoring the content itself. And some people will be more interested in what the term paper is trying to say and deal with the misspellings and grammatical errors.

I find the content coming out of many European RPG developers to be so good that I'm willing to ignore as best I can their lack of polish. But American reviewers will focus the bulk of their review on negative points about the game when there is a lack of polish and whatnot.

[Thrasher]

I wasn't commenting on your post.

Reading a review for content rather than just reacting to it because of its source is what I referring to.

[Gorath]

I really enjoyed the demo. Will certainly be importing this game from either the US or the UK. Will there be any differences between the two like there was with the witcher or is it the same game for both regions??

Hard to say. The game is quite harmless though. I don't remember anything which asks for being removed.

[gumbomasta]

I have a few questions regarding Landstander's review of Drakensang.

I'm speaking specifically of his criticism of Drakensang's realtime-with-pause combat. He writes, "The turn-based rounds are all going on under the hood, but the whole presentation of the game is geared towards letting those battles play out in real time. The trouble is that, to play the game with as much tactical advantage as possible, you've got to stop and start the action every few rounds just to make sure that your characters are all doing what they should be doing at any one time."

Is that really "trouble"?

Don't NWN2 and the upcoming Dragon Age offer a similar combat system? Baldur's Gate? Plansescape? What makes Drakensang's combat system inferior to those games, from which it draws inspiration? Would Landstander's argument have been stronger if he had put this game into context with those classics? How "uncomfortable" is this style of combat to the degree that it gets a 6.5 gameplay rating?

Landstander continues, "On the downside, of course, that means more stopping and starting, but at least it's more interesting from a purely tactical level. Even if you do have a fight that you can afford to wage in real time, the rounds are too apparent." Too apparent how? Compared to what? Landstander doesn't say. "Watching all your attacks launch in unison is funny at first but it soon gets kind of depressing." Is Landstander saying he's disheartened by the fact that he has to pause the action and give tactical commands?

Isn't the "interesting" stopping/starting tactical combat something many consumers might be looking for in an RPG? After all, this is the first one since the NWN2 series that offers this style of gameplay and Dragon Age isn't coming out til November.

just my two cents. thanks for reading.

[Dhruin]

Quite agree - with a caveat. Haven't played enough to say authoritatively but, yes, it's like NWN2 with a different camera and rules. Against the praise for most pause-based systems, it seems out of place.

The caveat is...he is right - pause-based systems make little sense to me; make it TB for good tactical control or don't bother. Except, it seems unlikely someone from IGN would make that argument and history has shown pause-based is very popular.

[Gorath]

Nothing makes it inferior. RTwP is genre standard. I guess that's the very reason Radon Labs chose to implement it.
And his complaint is not really valid I think, because he seems to have overlooked that you can set the combat to "pause after every round", "round" being interpreted as one full-circle through party and enemies. (I always forget what it's officially called. "Phase based"?) That gives you the time for tactical decisions in demanding battles - and slows down easy battles even more.

Apart from this detail I agree with others in this thread that it's a nice, balanced review and certainly at the upper end of would could be expected from a mainstream site.

[Grandor Dragon]

I have a few questions regarding Landstander's review of Drakensang.

I'm speaking specifically of his criticism of Drakensang's realtime-with-pause combat. [...]

Is that really "trouble"?



It sounds like you are perfectly comfortable with RTwP systems. In that case, it is not trouble at all. I agree that it feels a bit like NWN2. So while you might not like the rule system, or the tactics offered to you (which are quite standard - chop enemies, cast spells, use special attacks which cost stamina, use some items, change weapons, change positions), the fact that it is RTwP is not a big deal unless you don't like this kind of gameplay generally.

[Avantenor]

Remeber that you can stack orders while holding CTRL. That also includes movement orders.

[txa1265]

I personally love RTwP as well as action-based and also turn-based ... it isn't the system to me but the implementation.

Loving this game, by the way.

And as for reviews, I always read for context and content - think about all the arguments over our Fallout 3 reviews!

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I was the one who spread this info, I think.
IMHO the game gets clearly better when the main story starts and you get your own house in the rich district in Ferdok. The beginning is too slow for me. Sort of like an overlong tutorial.

I can only emphasise that.

The very first town is indeed kind of an tutorial.

By the way, what does RTwP stand for ?

[Avantenor]

Real Time with Pause

[Thrasher]

Sounds like the reviewer only likes pure RT combat (no pause). That's a preference that wasn't clearly elucidated.

It's clear that the author is unqualified and unaware of standard RPG combat systems (turned-based, pure real-time, real-time with pause) and their advantages and disadvantages.

[wolfing]

To be fair, since it doesn't use the D&D rules of AOOs, I find it much better to control and play than NWN2 for example. Switching someone's target in NWN2 easily creates 6 AOOs against the characters (in PnP this wouldn't happen as you would exactly control movement, but in NWN2 they just run all around). In Drakensang, this is not a problem. I can actually rely in the AI to do most of the job unless I want some micromanagement or spellcasting.
The part of them all attacking at the same time is just that, at the start of the battle you attack first so all the melee characters will swing at the same time. Then it goes more randomly. I think the reviewer was just nit-picking here, or he just doesn't like hybrid real-time/turn-based combat in any form (he probably hated NWN and NWN2 even more for the same reason)

[Ragon der Magier]

I personally love RTwP as well as action-based and also turn-based ... it isn't the system to me but the implementation.

Loving this game, by the way.

...

Nice to hear.

So, does that mean we can expect getting the review over it from you... again?


Oh wait! :idea:
I could imagine a catfight going on about it in the background between you and Gorath.
... and then maybe not. Rather it would be over Risen and/or Arcania (aka Gothic 4), wouldn´t it...
:lol:

What about inviting an external... say Avantenor? ;)


Ragon, the TDE Mage

[mute]

Strangley how i have enjoyed the start of this RPG and reading its get even better. I understand that IGN hit down on the combat (didn't read the review) but this turnbased combat is so much more enjoyable then NWN2 ever was for me. I feel in control.

Something that keep me smiling is that feeling i got when i started Startrail for the first time (one of my best experience in a CRPG) is the attention to detail and that you need to take care of you self and your stuff. Everyting from the wounds to the whetstones.

I was also pleasently surprised by the quality of the game. I was afraid it was going to be a not so pleasent but more bearable experience.

Although i am just in the beginning but i get the feeling that this will get the Mute Seal on it. (Not that anyone cares but)

I am however missing a manual. Didn't get one from Gamersgate and i haven't found one either.

My biggest grief, which is minor, is the camera when in-door. I get disoriented a little to easy.

[buckaroobonzai]

Nice to hear.

So, does that mean we can expect getting the review over it from you... again?


Oh wait! :idea:
I could imagine a catfight going on about it in the background between you and Gorath.
... and then maybe not. Rather it would be over Risen and/or Arcania (aka Gothic 4), wouldn´t it...
:lol:

What about inviting an external... say Avantenor? ;)


Ragon, the TDE Mage

A developer from TDE! Cool, we know you can't comment on future projects, but here's some prodding ;), how about some science-fiction, sci-fi hybrid like a cyberpunk, or steampunk/fantasy mix like arcanum. Or what about a real SHADOWRUN RPG, you know it is very popular in Germany like TDE! If anyone can do it you guys can haha.

[rune_74]

He is a dev?

Game is great so far, lots of fun.

[Arhu]

A developer from TDE!
Nope. Unfortunately, Ragon is but a humble magician who changes his specialization based on his current mood. Right at this moment he seems to be into TDE, albeit not on the developing part.

[txa1265]

So, does that mean we can expect getting the review over it from you... again

I am already lined up to review it for 2 or 3 sites, but had not assumed that I would do it here - there is much more interest from others and I don't want to be a 'review hog'. I assume that is what you're getting at?

[Michael Dean]

I'm a full day into it, exploring the city and all that fun stuff. I have to agree that, as it goes on, the game gets better and better. I like how they handled certain little conventions that have been around a while. Case-in-point: pickpocketing. Pickpocketing was always so lame because developers could never really do a risk/reward system that made sense (too much risk for very little reward made it so that nobody ever did it, for example.) Having big, important (or expensive) pickpocketable objects just encouraged saving/reloading. The developers here have basically (so far in the game) made the risk, reward, and ease of execution for pickpocketing a nice little diversion, and it fits in with the game world nicely. It's a minor touch, but this game is full of minor touches like this which put it over the top.
I must also agree with what's been said above about the realtime with pause combat system: it's just personal preference. I, also, coudn't get into NWN2's combat...it always seemed so sterile and so uninteractive. The pause system they've implemented here is a fine sight more accessible than NVW2's, and the battles are neither a micromanagement fright-fest, a boring click-fest, or a continuous pause-order-pause-fest. They've really done a great job with the combat, and I have a hard time finding a lot of negatives with the game in general thus far.

[rune_74]

I'm just now at the point of entering the city...I am a hog on collecting all those herbs...I'm playing an elf who is a wimp in fighting but ok with a lightning spell. Love a couple of the characters you meet. The game runs as smooth as butter for me though no hickups.

Also, cool thing is they seperate quest items from other inventory...makes life so much more easy.

Strongly recomended.

[Unrestigered]

Can’t say I’m all that impressed. (small spoilers)

Cons:

You can’t create a character from scratch.

Expert mode doesn’t give you that much choice in creating a character.
Barrels and barrels galore. More barrels than a NWN game. Filled with regular crap. I hate that, and whoever it was that said barrels are rare and filled with useless stuff not worth breaking them played a different game.
Combat is way too easy, non-tactical, non-strategic, boring. Not nearly of the level of NWN 1 or 2 retardedness, but a shame and a sham compared to RoA. You gain health, stam, and magic at a ridiculously fast pace. Wounds are a joke, being poisoned is a joke, etc. All the goodness of RoA was sucked out of this games dungeon crawling. Why would I want to waste time on Alchemy for pots when I don’t need them? RoA and Darklands were the only games to get Alchemy and potion use correct and this game shat all over RoA.

I have barely spent any of my exp points because 1) I don’t have to because combat is so easy; 2) those cocksuckers stole a character of mine upon reaching the city. My party make-up sucks. I know I get the thief back with the brewery quest, but don’t take my characters. The Amazon is the only character I could have specialize in the outside crap like survival, plant lore, and animal lore, and her stats suck for this (besides survival). I don’t want to waste points on the charlatan’s lock picking, etc. This game is a min-maxer’s nightmare and it makes me want to stab people in the face with uncontrollable rage. And party members gain experience even if they aren’t partied with you al la Kotor.

This game was made for Ironman. The herb picking, animal gathering skills, pick-pocketing, everything screams for ironman. It might even be considered a good game if it had ironman and combat was at least 3x harder. Characters don’t die so it wouldn’t actually be bad. It has the stupid Kotor knock-out, can only die if everyone dies system. It would be almost as good as RoA if it had ironman, 3x harder combat, full character creation, and I got to create all five characters myself so I could do it sensibly.

So far this is a kotor/nwn clone without a bio story. So far there have been no meaningful choices. So they managed to totally fail at the actual game part, like Bio, but without a decent story or party interaction all the kids love in today’s “rpgs.”

This game is not just a slap in the face of the people who put RoA on a pedestal, it’s not even a equal to a little butt-rape. This is full blown Jeffery Dahmer style kidnap-rape-murder-eat-you-up. But it’s still better than all the trash out their besides Spiderweb, and the only big-budget game that is actually worthy of being called a game (even though very unworthy when compared to its older but much better predecessors).

I can see why when it comes to a lot of crap, but ruining min-maxing for me is too much to take. I can’t believe I anticipated this game so much.

Oh, by the way. How the rolls work for talents for those who don’t know. The three (or two) stats that govern the check each are rolled with a d20. You have to roll under your stat. Your talent in the skill is used as points to bring rolled amounts down to help pass tests. Harder tests subtract from your talent point pool total, and can even bring it negative. Easy tasks can give you bonus points. If you are wondering why the Amazon sucks so bad at picking herbs it’s because she has a about a 50% chance to fail each roll due to attributes, not counting the talent pool or other factors. But why would you raise those attributes of hers when it would make far more sense not to, and have a character with some synergy between attributes and skills? It’s silly.

[rune_74]

Thanks for the spoiler tags on that stuff, appreciate that.

[Thrasher]

Oh, by the way. How the rolls work for talents for those who don’t know. The three (or two) stats that govern the check each are rolled with a d20. You have to roll under your stat. Your talent in the skill is used as points to bring rolled amounts down to help pass tests. Harder tests subtract from your talent point pool total, and can even bring it negative. Easy tasks can give you bonus points. If you are wondering why the Amazon sucks so bad at picking herbs it’s because she has a about a 50% chance to fail each roll due to attributes, not counting the talent pool or other factors. But why would you raise those attributes of hers when it would make far more sense not to, and have a character with some synergy between attributes and skills? It’s silly.

Please explain further. Based on your explanation, it seems that attributes that help more than one skill check would be more beneficial to raise rather than a single skill. So you could specialize each character for synergetic skills/attributes.

[Unrestigered]

An Amazon fighter really doesn't need to waste points in Intuition, Cleverness, or Dexterity to be good at the only supplimental function she could fill. I could raise her Int, CL, and DE to an exceptable level for her sub-function as well as the talents needed tomake her my "nature freak" but I would gimp her primary function/role. No synergy.

[Avantenor]

Raising attributes costs about ten-times as much EXP than a single skill level and it won't help you to get around handicaped checks. If you don't have enough skill points to outweigh the handicap, all three attribute checks will be handicaped by the differential. Also sometimes the remaining skill points after a skill check (called SP*) have influence on the result of the check.

You have to find a balance between raising skills or attributes.

[Thrasher]

Then make you mage or thief your herb picker. That seems more synergistic.

[Unrestigered]

Looks like I have 2 choices for a synergistic "nature freak" the spellweaver, or the seaming super-character that starts with rediculously high skills in a wide array of crap, the healing mage. I hate not being a fighter-type, but for the sake of some sort of min-maxing I'm going to have to start over and go with the healing mage. It is going to suck to have to destroy all those barrells and pick all those herbs again. I'm on the last leg of the harbor quests and I finished the oracle quests. Sucks I wasted all that time. Curse you Radon labs! Curse You!

[Avantenor]

You don't really need min-maxing. I guess with your skill and experience in rpg gaming you won't have a problem to get around.

In the moor you will find another possible companion, an elf. That one should be able to take over the herbal / animal things.

[Unrestigered]

Yes i do have to min-max, thats half the fun of a crpg. The other half is tactical TB-combat. I make enough choices at work to get my fill at that, and my wife and oldest kid do enough talking. What i don't get to do is create a party of pure awesome with every point painstakenly placed, nor do I get to employ a party i created in tactical TB-combat. Since this game decided tactical TB combat (or even challenging comvat) is for the birds, and creating your own party is for better games, if I want my moneies worth I am left with min-maxing with the crap this game thows me.

And I don't switch people out in stupid games that give you members bit by bit. I stick with what I have due to vesting and if you the devs wanted me to change characters they should've given it to me sooner. What are people supposed to do, not pick any herbs before they get to the moor? Phooey. I know the first 4 characters I get and how I can make it work.

[rune_74]

So you got this game and were disappointed it was not turned based, did you happen to read any press on it.

[Michael Dean]

While I must agree that, so far at least, the combat is too easy, I don't have a problem with the character talents and skills as they are. I figure if the devs wanted us to have blank slates to min/max, they would have included that option.
Yeah, I'm using the Amazon as my herbalist. She doesn't successfully harvest all the herbs, but she doesn't fail all the time either. Surely I could have built a streamlined character from scratch who has more complimentary stats and skills, but I personally like overcoming the negatives. Just personal play preference for me.

[ulixes]

That's not thinking. That's reacting.

BTW when I google "TDE" I get nothing. Where are the rules for TDE documented on the internet? Hopefully in English, otherwise, nevermind...

Register at the TDE Yahoo group (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/darkeye/). They have a quite huge PDF file with some fan-translated rules. I actually translated some stuff for the group.
The rules at play in Drakensang should all be explained in the PDF, but I'm not sure.


Aaaand. I can argue this point over and over.
Drakensang is NOT RTwP.
It is (in my own terms) "round-based with pseudo-realtime".
First all player-characters act (more or less at the same time, but in one round, so it wouldn't really make a difference), then all the enemies act, and so on.
So it is basically and at its core pure round-based combat (don't mix that up with turn-based, which it is obviously not).

Since this game decided tactical TB combat (or even challenging comvat) is for the birds,

Yeah yeah, just wait for the later areas, and see if combat remains "§unchallenging"; even with min/maxing. You'll be suprised.
Also, I hate Flight Simulators. Thats why I don't feel I could give a valuable opinion on them. Maybe you should do the same in some instances?

[rune_74]

I noticed my 3 guys all attacked at the same time...reminded me of the three musketeers for some reason.

[Gorath]

Glad it worked. :)

I'm going to split the thread and move some parts to our Drakensang forum. So if anybody misses a few of his posts, they can be found there.

[Curunír]

Yes i do have to min-max, thats half the fun of a crpg. The other half is tactical TB-combat. I make enough choices at work to get my fill at that, and my wife and oldest kid do enough talking.

A wild guess: mondblut?

[Arhu]

I can see why when it comes to a lot of crap, but ruining min-maxing for me is too much to take. I can’t believe I anticipated this game so much.

Try playing it for what it is then, not for what you expect it to be. As far as min-maxing goes, yeah - in retrospect I would have loved to be able to create my entire party from scratch. And I didn't like that my own character didn't have any voice at all. Aside from that, I thought that character creation offered enough options. You select an archetype but you can still customize the stats a bit.

What I also did was to plan out my party from the get-go and ditch companions I didn't want as soon as I got my "dream team". Filler characters got to train the same talents that I imagined my real party members to have. If your main character can't harvest herbs, there's no need to make the amazon train in those skills. You'll find a Elven Spellweaver later on who can do all the herb work and there'll always be plenty.

You'll even get your own garden when you move into your grandfather's (?) house - new plants you found on your journeys will grow here too, and fast enough. Except for the rarest ones that is.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Just as a side-note : www.drakensang.de works again ...

[Brother None]

Drakensang is NOT RTwP.
It is (in my own terms) "round-based with pseudo-realtime".
First all player-characters act (more or less at the same time, but in one round, so it wouldn't really make a difference), then all the enemies act, and so on.
So it is basically and at its core pure round-based combat (don't mix that up with turn-based, which it is obviously not).

That's how Baldur's Gate works, and the term RTwP pretty much comes from Baldur's Gate.

Putting the horse in front of the cart a bit there.

[wolfing]

Yes i do have to min-max, thats half the fun of a crpg. The other half is tactical TB-combat. I make enough choices at work to get my fill at that, and my wife and oldest kid do enough talking. What i don't get to do is create a party of pure awesome with every point painstakenly placed, nor do I get to employ a party i created in tactical TB-combat. Since this game decided tactical TB combat (or even challenging comvat) is for the birds, and creating your own party is for better games, if I want my moneies worth I am left with min-maxing with the crap this game thows me.

And I don't switch people out in stupid games that give you members bit by bit. I stick with what I have due to vesting and if you the devs wanted me to change characters they should've given it to me sooner. What are people supposed to do, not pick any herbs before they get to the moor? Phooey. I know the first 4 characters I get and how I can make it work.

I think you're reviewing the game as if it was RoA 4, which is not. Once you get that out of the way, realize it's a different game, you'll enjoy it better.
I believe I read somewhere that originally they were including a full character creation for your character, but for some reason (user feedback or something) they went for the pre-created characters that you could tweak within the archetype like we have now. To me it's no big deal, but yes, I would have preferred if they added the option (they could call it extreme expert mode *do not touch*), but no problem.
Not able to create all your characters? Again, this is not RoA, doesn't apply. I actually find it more immersive. You encounter these people, they're who they are, not what you want them to be (at least until you add them to your group).
As far as difficulty goes, yes I do agree, at least up to the point I'm at (investigating the problems in the city) that battles have all been a breeze so far. If they become tougher later, that's cool, but they should at least provide some challenge from the start. Maybe the problem is what you mentioned, mana recovers too fast? I don't know how the PnP version works, but I find myself just casting spells in battle as if there's no tomorrow, since mana will be back to full 10 seconds after the fight.
But those are really nit-pickings in my case, the game is very enjoyable and fun. I don't even see a problem with characters suddenly leaving the party, it's just part of the fun, adapting to new situations. So you don't have the super-optimal group? big deal, nobody does, it's immersive (I do wish they let me take their stuff before they leave, the first character that left my group had all the hairpins, I'm out of hairpins now and can't find who sells them)

[DeepO]

Nice review Unregistered! Should be on the main page.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I believe I read somewhere that originally they were including a full character creation for your character, but for some reason (user feedback or something) they went for the pre-created characters that you could tweak within the archetype like we have now.

Cost cuts, I assume.

The community even protested when they wanted to just offer the archetypes.

The community clearly wanted more possibilities.

[doctor_kaz]

I'm pleasantly surprised by the reviews that I am seeing for this game so far, since games like this are somewhat notorious for getting people to review them who have no business doing so and end up complaining "GAME IS TEH SUXXORZ HAS TOO MANY ROOLZ HURRRR!!11!!!"

[Avantenor]

Cost cuts, I assume.

The community even protested when they wanted to just offer the archetypes.

The community clearly wanted more possibilities.
SOME protested, and SOME wanted more. There was clearly a pen & paper faction that claimed a full character creation. And there was also a faction that thought archetypes would be ok. p&p faction simply was louder, because they didn't get what they wanted.

Full character creation was never planned after the time development of Drakensang was made public.

[Unrestigered]

Yeah yeah, just wait for the later areas, and see if combat remains "§unchallenging"; even with min/maxing. You'll be suprised.

No I won’t.


Also, I hate Flight Simulators. That’s why I don't feel I could give a valuable opinion on them. Maybe you should do the same in some instances?

Well, seeing as I only like crpgs and I have impeccable taste in them, no. But let’s explore your statement. Let’s say you love flight simulators only and have played them for 20+ odd years. (I don’t know anything about flight simulators or flying so I am going to make up terms that sound like they apply). All the flight simulators in the 80’s and early 90’s had everything, and “pitch”, “throttle” and “[something(I can’t think of another flying word)]” were a staple in every flight simulator game. But in the mid to late 90’s flight simulators started to get dumbed-down to appeal to a broader market.

Today, flight simulators have taken two different paths: the top down shooter like the mini game in Jade Empire, whatever those types of flying games are called, and the stripped down flight simulator which is 99% auto-pilot with some discourse with the flight attendants and passengers.

And a new flight simulator is coming out were you know it won’t have [flying word I can’t think of] and throttle, but there is no reason to think it won’t, and every reason to think it has, the pitch element. So you think the game isn’t completely dumbed-down. But you get it and find it doesn’t have pitch, for no reason at all. All the devs had to do was not be retarded and not purposefully stop the pitch function, which would’ve made you happy. So you complain on a flight simulator forum and some freshman tells you that you don’t actually like flight simulators. That analogy has just sealed my fate as an extreme dork, hasn’t it?

Anyway, I found a work around to this game’s problem. I found a save game editor that has been converted to English. http://www.fab-dev.de/drakensang
I made a party with a little synergy and sensible distribution. I also made them way under powered so this game can provide a little challenge hopefully.

I knew this game didn’t have TB combat. I played the demo. But what the demo didn’t explain is character creation was going to be so weak, the devs purposefully screwed min-maxers, and combat wasn’t going to be more challenging outside of the start/tutorial area. All my complaints were valid.

p.s.

Nice review Unregistered! Should be on the main page.

It was a rant, not really a review. I'm on the second dragon quest now and its much better with a party I created.

So you got this game and were disappointed it was not turned based, did you happen to read any press on it.

Where did you get this idea? You no read good? I always knew this game was RTwP. I always knew I wouldn't be able to create my own party. I didn't know they were going to stick it right in the rear-end of min-maxers for no good reason.

[JDR13]

Well, seeing as I only like crpgs and I have impeccable taste in them,


Everyone (in their own mind) has "impeccable" taste. ;)

[Unrestigered]

It is scientifically proven I indeed do have impeccable taste when it comes to crpgs and other people have very, very poor taste. Point in fact: I like only the good ones, and the bad ones sell like hot-cakes to the people without impeccable taste. Tell me your top 10 favorites, and if it matches mine exactly you might have impeccable taste also.

[txa1265]

It is scientifically proven I indeed do have impeccable taste when it comes to crpgs and other people have very, very poor taste. Point in fact: I like only the good ones, and the bad ones sell like hot-cakes to the people without impeccable taste. Tell me your top 10 favorites, and if it matches mine exactly you might have impeccable taste also.

I have a better idea - since you are claiming impeccable taste, why don't you tell us the 'Best 10 cRPG's EVER' - since if they are your top 10 they must be the best based on your own claims. ;)

[Unrestigered]

I have a better idea - since you are claiming impeccable taste, why don't you tell us the 'Best 10 cRPG's EVER' - since if they are your top 10 they must be the best based on your own claims. ;)

scientifically proven


Science doesn't lie.

[Avantenor]

cop-out. Give us the Top10. ;)

[ulixes]

Maybe the problem is what you mentioned, mana recovers too fast? I don't know how the PnP version works,

A normal caster recovers 1d6 of mana per night (plus one for a succeeded intuition test)! So mana recovery in this game is about 1000 times faster ;)
You can boost your recovery with passive and permanent special abilities, which cost you Exp. This way you can get up to a fixed regeneration rate of about 10 mana per night (plus the eventual one for the intuition test). Same goes for health (difference being a constitution test).
You can also sacrifice about 8 hours of ingame time to meditate, but I'm not sure how much mana that gives you.

@Unregistered:
The top-down "Flight Simulators" like in Jade Empire are called "Shoot 'em Ups" or "Shmups", or you can call them vertical/horizontal scrollers (awesome Genre by the way). But they are certainly not flight simulators.

I would have liked a full character creation, too. But I didn't expect them to build in ca. 15 races, 40 cultures, 200 professions (many with variants) on their 2 million budget and still make every of the millions of combinations playable (or even only those that make sense). We'll see how much of a free character creation they'll have in Demonicon. They'll probably only have standard races and cultures, and mostly combat- and magic-oriented professions. Which I'm okay with.

[JDR13]

Tell me your top 10 favorites, and if it matches mine exactly you might have impeccable taste also.



I think Oblivion is definitely the best RPG ever made, and Super Mario RPG is a close 2nd.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Full character creation was never planned after the time development of Drakensang was made public.

I had feared so, as I was talking ... Well, I mentioned it often enough, I think. ;)

What still bugs me is that they never intended kind of an "NLT 2.0".

Either the costs for a "modern graphics game" were too demanding, or they had planned to not incorporate mentally challenging aspects into the game in the first place.

When I look at the PC gaming area, I often feel like someone who wants to read the FAZ, but is presented the BILD instead.

[Curunír]

I had feared so, as I was talking ... Well, I mentioned it often enough, I think. ;)

What still bugs me is that they never intended kind of an "NLT 2.0".

Either the costs for a "modern graphics game" were too demanding, or they had planned to not incorporate mentally challenging aspects into the game in the first place.

When I look at the PC gaming area, I often feel like someone who wants to read the FAZ, but is presented the BILD instead.

1. Well, many aspects of the NLT (a.k.a. Realms of Arkania) don't translate that easily into a 3D engine. Climbing in RoA? Just a textbox that will appear under certain situations. Simple. In a 3D engine? It would require a lot of work on the engine, the physics, map design, etc. The tavern money-gainer skills dancing, acrobatics and cheating? In RoA a simple textbox. In a 3D engine? A lot of animations to do extra, unless you also want to go with a text box, which will quite probably seem out of place in a otherwise fully 3D game. And so on...

2. What was so mentally challenging about the micromanagement aspects in RoA? They were mostly nuisances. Yes, sometimes fun too, but never mentally challenging.

3. Why would one want to read a pseudo-intellectual conservative newspaper? Yes, it is better than a right-wing populist conservative tabloid, but why would one want to read it in the first place? :biggrin:

[ulixes]

I think Oblivion is definitely the best RPG ever made, and Super Mario RPG is a close 2nd.

I can already tell that he'll probably crucify you for your No. 1, and laugh about your obscure No. 2.
But Oblivion, seriously? Oblivion might be the best Exploration Game ever made, but as a Roleplaying (!) Game it fails in so many respects...
There is virtually no roleplaying in Oblivion at all, or at least not more then in many other games that are not regarded RPGs.
Don't get me wrong. I loved Oblivion. That is: I loved the exploration, doing the odd casual quest here and there (when I was passing anyway). But actually playing the thing seriously, with completing the boring quest-chains or the horrendous main-quest? No, thanks.
The good thing about it is: From exploration alone, and from doing a small fracture of the quests, you already get your money's worth (when you compare it with the length of other games).

[rune_74]

Everyone (in their own mind) has "impeccable" taste. ;)

Beat me to this....

how many here have played star trail in the last little while? I have, not many meaningful choices to be made for roleplaying(this was not the games strong point). It did have decent combat, but even for its time it had dated graphics.

[Grandor Dragon]

Ulixes, ever considered that JDR13 was not entirely serious? ;)

[JDR13]

.......:shh:

[Curunír]

The good thing about it is: From exploration alone, and from doing a small fracture of the quests, you already get your money's worth (when you compare it with the length of other games).

I disagree. Graphics demos are not worth my money, in my humble opinion.

[rune_74]

Hmmm I gotta say I got to a cathedral in the main city and it has to be one of the best looking cathedrals I have seen in a game....it sure gives a sense of awe in it. I 'm really enjoying this game, sure it could do character gen a bit better but its a solid game.

[wolfing]

I had my first 'game over' last night, didn't know freaking rats could take so many hits! It's starting to feel 'not so easy' now, maybe it's a sign of (good) things to come.

[rune_74]

heh I died my first time facing a rather specail wolf ;)

[Gorath]

It's more a sign of you doing things you shouldn't be doing now. ;)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

2. What was so mentally challenging about the micromanagement aspects in RoA? They were mostly nuisances. Yes, sometimes fun too, but never mentally challenging.

I don't get it why so many people saw it as a nuisance.

The "challenging" part in my opinion was the planning.

[Curunír]

I don't get it why so many people saw it as a nuisance.

The "challenging" part in my opinion was the planning.

To prevent misunderstandings: When I called these elements a nuisance, I did not meant to imply that I don't like them. Actually I love Blade of Destiny for its 'travelling adventurers simulation' parts.

I just wanted to say that these parts are in no way mentally challenging, the planning aspect is quite clear, if you know how the game works. It's not the case that the rationing of food, the buying of crucial equipment or the marching route planning confront you with serious decisions or even dilemmas.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I have thought about it and came to the conclusion that my way of perceiving my environment is quite different from that of most people, because I'm fairly detail-oriented. I notice and look at many more details than other people do.

As far as I know, this is a trait HSPs have in common.

[Curunír]

I have thought about it and came to the conclusion that my way of perceiving my environment is quite different from that of most people, because I'm fairly detail-oriented. I notice and look at many more details than other people do.

As far as I know, this is a trait HSPs have in common.

What's HSP? Hyper-sensible persons?

[DeepO]

High Speed Printer

[Alrik Fassbauer]

What's HSP? Hyper-sensible persons?

Close. Highly sensitive persons.

This is one of the main onformation pages about it: http://www.hsperson.com/
The Wikipedia article isn't imho good at all. I hesitate to call it a "mess", but it definitively needs some rewriting, although some core elements are right.

[ulixes]

.......:shh:

Okay... maybe I should go buy a new irony-detector...

[rune_74]

yeah I use the tea, just never got that you had to put it in the quick bar.

Please tell me guys part two using the same engine is in the works? I'm really digging this one, alot more then NWN2 for some reason)I have started that game so many times and never finished it...I have a bit of ADD when playing rpg's)

[Arhu]

Please tell me guys part two using the same engine is in the works?
Part two using the same engine is in the works. With gameplay improvements of course. ;)

[rune_74]

Awesome this game was a great first step.

[txa1265]

Awesome this game was a great first step.

Completely agree - love, love, love this game.

[rune_74]

Hav you been in that first cathedral where you have to answer his questions? Didn't it just feel right?

[JDR13]

Please tell me guys part two using the same engine is in the works? I'm really digging this one, alot more then NWN2 for some reason)I have started that game so many times and never finished it...I have a bit of ADD when playing rpg's)


Completely agree - love, love, love this game.


How does Drakensang compare to Baldur's Gate/ IWD/ Planescape? I couldn't really get a feel for it from just playing the demo.

[Dhruin]

Very early comments, so take these with a grain of salt...

So far, Baldur's Gate (the original) seems a fair comparison but the 3D engine still makes is feel more NWN2, to me. It definitely doesn't have the originality, vision or philosophical weight of PS:T (but little does), so get that out of the way. Not as combat heavy as IWD, but the art and music aren't as striking, either.

Unlike NWN2, it has a really nice interface and the game doesn't generally get in the way - but like NWN2, it lacks formations and I haven't quite found the same tactical balance as the IE games. The rules (what I can decipher) seem more balanced and interesting than D&D -- it's really nice to have something different.

It feels a little whimsical - I rather like the "dark and gritty" setting of The Witcher or the more complex writing of Black Isle / Obsidian but this works nicely as a straight-up fantasy adventure that ends up feeling different, despite the rather cliche tropes.

[JDR13]

It feels a little whimsical - .

That's kind of the impression I got from the demo, I was hoping the game got a little more serious later on.



....and all those barrels.... :rolleyes:

[rune_74]

it does get serious...you do investigate some murders....seems to be a good plot there.

What is the problem people have with barrels? Its no different then finding a chest in the old games...no one complained then. Hell, at least they are not full of stat changing liquid ;)

[Gorath]

The "cure poison" discussion has been moved to the Drakensang forum.

[Dhruin]

I'm not trying to criticise the plot but there is a...naivete? in the writing that keeps the atmosphere lighter than, say, a typical Obsidian game. You might be investigating murders but your only responses when you first encounter them, for example, are (paraphrasing) Gosh! How Terrible!! A murder?!

It might change later but it isn't "dark" - maybe only just "serious" - yet. Not a criticism (despite my personal taste being different) - it's just a certain style.

[Gorath]

Not only naivety. There's also a slight comedy element and parts of the writing seem to be influenced by fairy tales.

Of course the game never gets dark. Even the villains aren't as cruel as in other games. ;)
It's Drakensang's style. And I guess also the DSA style in general.

[Grandor Dragon]

TDE took a turn into the dark when some black cults finally got what they wanted and the ancient mage (and demi-God) Borbarad. Significant parts of Aventuria got under the control of undead dragons, witches, demon summoners, etc. All the modules playing in these regions are very dark and gritty. I would say that Drakensang takes the naivety of earlier modules. I do agree that the style works well and, despite and because the cliches, is rather unique for a contemporary CRPG.

I assume that the announced TDE action-rpg will be much darker.

[Brother None]

I'm not trying to criticise the plot but there is a...naivete?

I wouldn't say naivete is the right word. TDE is light-hearted fantasy, always has been (recent "gritty" modules not withstanding). When it works, it's definitely not a bad thing, we've seen enough "omfg so gritty" games lately.

[JDR13]

What is the problem people have with barrels? Its no different then finding a chest in the old games...no one complained then.


It's MUCH different imo. I don't think anyone ever went around smashing barrels to splinters to grab a trinket, it's just plain silly. It's as if the Devs were just too lazy to implement containers in a more realistic way.

[Fenris]

They tried to create a new Baldur's Gate with modern Graphics and the interesting TDE-License - and decided to drop the role-playing due to Budget-limitations and the strategic battles because no one likes them today. What remains is a nice trip to fairy-tale land...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Not only naivety. There's also a slight comedy element and parts of the writing seem to be influenced by fairy tales.

Of course the game never gets dark. Even the villains aren't as cruel as in other games. ;)
It's Drakensang's style. And I guess also the DSA style in general.

That's right, overall. It's just the way Aventuria is. Apart from the "Black Lands".

They tried to create a new Baldur's Gate with modern Graphics and the interesting TDE-License - and decided to drop the role-playing due to Budget-limitations and the strategic battles because no one likes them today. What remains is a nice trip to fairy-tale land...

Yes, that's right in general, too.

Baldur's Gate is their great model, the devs have said this quite often in interviews.

Only that Aventuria is a rather light world, not so much "dark and grey" like many other games.

In the ulisses forums, there is currently a strong discussion going on about Aventuria & grey hue. I got the impression as if the players are divided: Some want a more dark Aventuria, some don't. These "traditionalists" want Aventuria to rather remain lighter than it is now ( ! - you as a Drakensang player don't see much of it at all ! ), meanwhile others want Aventuria to become more dark, and are happy with the "greyness" as it has today. Some want it even more dark.

TDE started as a rather light, fairy-tale inspired world, even to the point that fairies are there, and spells did rhyme.

Over the years, Aventuria became darker, especuially with the arrival of the arch-villian Borbarad. Who created the "Black Lands". Which are rather horror-themed.

After his defeat (1998, I think) the "Black Lands" remained until now, and there has been not much progress against them.

The above mentioned "traditionalists", as I call them, want to see progress against the "Black Lands", which means they want heroes to win against the evil rulers of these areas. THey want to see the lighter parts of Aventuria kind of restored there, again.
It's partly because they argue that Heroes by definition do heroic deeds, and that means a win for the good side.
And TDE is defined as a "heroic" system. Heroes - per original definition - should do good deeds and help the people.

Now that hasn't come true. Instead, a great, great, great disaster has destroyed a huge part of the Middle Realm, and even worse, its capital.

Now, the world has become much darker, much more grey, with the amount of players who want to play grey characters (no more "heroes" by definition) seemingly increasing. at least that's the impression I get while reading the discussions.

The newer generations of players even seem to consider this "darker Aventuria" as normal, which is kind of shocking to "Traditionalists", I guess.
And now these players of grey characters don't want Aventuria to become a lighter place with Heroes doing heroic deeds for the Good Cause anymore !

Now that is the point right now: Aventuria has become a rather grey and much darker place than 10 years or so ago. Of course, from Drakensang you don't see much of that, only bits and parts. Drakensang tends to rather represend the "lighter" form of Aventuria. And that's why me and several other players expect the TDE-action-game to become much, much darker.

The "Traditionalists", by the way, are feeling more and more helpless and ignored, and turn rather away from TDE/Aventuria, because the world's not becoming lighter again. Hoeroes don't do progress against the "Black Lands". Instead, everything remains grey and dark, as it is compared to 10 years ago or so.

Therefore, some of them turn towards Myranor ...

[Wulf]

So has this otherwise true authentic and atmospheric reproduction and dedicated p&p rule set conversion to pc been watered down then - with all this vicarage tea party humour stuff, in favour of 'contemporary' gamers?

[Corwin]

While I can enjoy 'gritty' games, I play rpg's for fun, so finding a game with a 'lighter' style is a pleasant change of pace. Our world is gritty enough for me; it's good to escape that for a few hours!!

[Fenris]

It's difficult to say - a casual gamer will have a lot of problems with the ruleset. The Character-Building is really interesting - i.e. you don't get Hitpoints automaticaly when you level up, if you want to have more hitpoints you have to invest points in them, points that might better be spend in new spells or new special-actions i.e. so you can gimp your characters like in Diablo.

But the Fights (with a few exceptions ^^) are very easy and remind me a lot of World of Warcraft, and the game is horrible linear... once again for budget-reasons you can't even travel back to a previously visited region. There are some choices (help this merchant-house or that, help the witches or the inquisitors, but the maingame stays the same).

I guess the game is to low on strategie and roleplaying for the hardcore-crowd and the rules are to difficult for the casuals :)

Min/Maxers might get something out of it...

There aren't even Bios three Dialogue-choices (hippie-good, greedy-neutral, stupid-evil), your choices are like in WoW: Ok, I do your Quest or No, not at the moment, maybe later.

Edit:

Yet it's not a bad game - everytime when I can forget the Northland-Triologie and play the game for what it is, it's a nice little game, certainly as "good" as the rest of the mainstream-games from Bio or Bethesda...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

So has this otherwise true authentic and atmospheric reproduction and dedicated p&p rule set conversion to pc been watered down then - with all this vicarage tea party humour stuff, in favour of 'contemporary' gamers?

No.

This is how Aventuria still is, to the most part.

The "Black Lands" are only ONE part among many parts of Aventuria.

And not everything is "grey" and dark.

Drakensang still shows the "true" Aventuria - the one which is rather "traditional".

How the world in Drakensang is can still be found in several parts of Aventuria - but not everywhere anymore.

If you want a more grey and gritty TDE game, then the action-game called "Demonicon" might be for you.

And the *original* TDE/Aventuria of many years ago might then not meet your taste ...

For a group of players, Drakensang even had *too much* action ...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

While I can enjoy 'gritty' games, I play rpg's for fun, so finding a game with a 'lighter' style is a pleasant change of pace. Our world is gritty enough for me; it's good to escape that for a few hours!!

Exactly my thoughts, too.

Which is why I become sooooo bored by the majority of current games.

I sometimes think that this could be a sign of Gothic having arrived in the mainstream of gaming culture ...

[Grandor Dragon]

gamestar.de has a few bits about TDE: Demonicon, an action-RPG playing in the Black Lands. It will definitely be darker. If by "action-RPG" the developers mean Diablo style, it would be disappointing. I am not even sure if TDE and Diablo style gameplay mix well.

However, some bits I read were interesting. For example, unlike in Drakensang, NPCs will act differently based on your race and maybe class, and dialogue will offer more options while being fully voiced.

[txa1265]

Every game coming out now touts being 'dark & gritty' .... so I appreciate the whimsy as well the interesting characters and plot.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

and dialogue will offer more options while being fully voiced.

Well, if it turns out to be an action-oriented game, then I assume that there'll be less diolog lines than in Drakensang - which means there are fewer costs.

Or in other words: It might be fully voiced, but less dialog in general.

@VPeric: There exists a kind of mini-mod that increases the running speed of the characters. However, I never used it, because for me it was quite okay.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

According to this article (http://www.gamestar.de/news/pc/rollenspiel/1954162/das_schwarze_auge_drakensang.html) Drakensang has been sold over 100.000 times (units) in Germany until now.

[Gorath]

Running speed discussion moved.

[Unrestigered]

cop-out. Give us the Top10. ;)

In no Order for top 10 rpgs: The three RoA's. Darklands. Both Buck Rogers. ToEE. Both real Fall Outs. Mega-Traveler. Arcanum. Wizardry 7. Dark Sun. Avernum 5.

If we are talking about best games, and not just best rpgs I might have to replace some games above with: Bloodlines, Betrayal at Krondor, JA2, X-Com:TFTD, Daggerfall, and maybe even Privateer. And Archon will always hold a sweat place in my heart as well, and maybe Nobunaga's Ambition too.

I did not list honorable mentions or runner-ups (I have to mention the Guest for Glory series though).

Impeccable taste.

[Curunír]

Impeccable taste.

I disagree. A good to very good taste, but still far from impeccable.

[Unrestigered]

I disagree. A good to very good taste, but still far from impeccable.

That’s like saying you don't believe in the Calvin-Benson Cycle. Science cannot be argued with, and science always wins against savage beliefs and opinions. I guess the gods still send plagues when they're angry, huh? This is scientific fact, not some shaman witch doctor voodoo hoopla. E equals MC squared, girls enjoy largely endowed men more than the little fellers, and I have impeccable taste in crpgs. It’s just how it is, good sir.

[rune_74]

When someone toots there own horn people tend to not listen.

[Curunír]

That’s like saying you don't believe in the Calvin-Benson Cycle. Science cannot be argued with, and science always wins against savage beliefs and opinions. I guess the gods still send plagues when they're angry, huh? This is scientific fact, not some shaman witch doctor voodoo hoopla. E equals MC squared, girls enjoy largely endowed men more than the little fellers, and I have impeccable taste in crpgs. It’s just how it is, good sir.

A scientific fact is, that no "best RPGs ever" or "best computer games ever" list can be true if it omits Planescape: Torment or Deus Ex. And that is just the most prime example of your failed reasoning, the (admittedly huge) tip of the iceberg.

[Dasale]

Or you can see it in the reverse, good taste is a lot subjective matter so when someone gives his list, it shows good taste for him. You can't deny that because you haven't made the list... and that's scientific. :)

It's still quite pointless and weird to highlight yourself that you have good taste, sure everybody have good taste for himself, that's just a lapalissade.

[Dhruin]

If you argue with Roqua, he wins by default, anyway. :)

[Unrestigered]

A scientific fact is, that no "best RPGs ever" or "best computer games ever" list can be true if it omits Planescape: Torment or Deus Ex. And that is just the most prime example of your failed reasoning, the (admittedly huge) tip of the iceberg.

I don't think you truly understand the meaning of impeccable or scientific fact. Let us clear up this misunderstanding.

IMPECCABLE-adjective
faultless; flawless; irreproachable:

PS:T was an IE game. I’ll be generous and say PS:T was only 50% combat. The combat was repetitive, overly-abundant, boring, overly-abundant, un-strategic, overly-abundant, tactic-less, overly-abundant, and pure and utter crap.
A game that is 50% pure and utter crap cannot be considered faultless, flawless, or irreproachable. Science wins again. I wonder why science always wins against crazy? I know, because crazy doesn’t make sense and science does.

As to Dues Ex, I guess I should’ve included Madden 2002 and whatever FPS is hot right now. My taste is impeccable, and impeccable is far too tasteful to include twitch nonsense with a little bit of meat (Bloodlines, Privateer, and Daggerfall had a shitload of meat included with the twitch-nonsense).

Its okay, we can’t all have impeccable taste. It is my burden to bear alone. Your life is far easier having only decent taste. You should actually thank whatever gods your voodoo shaman deems appropriate for this situation you are not also cursed with impeccable taste like I.

If you argue with Roqua, he wins by default, anyway.

I’ve heard Roqua is extremely handsome, smart, strong, and well-endowed, with skin that glistens like a noble jaguar, possesing of cat-like reflexes and the speed of a mongoose, but I am just Unrestigered. I am an average man besides having impeccable taste in crpgs proven by the scientific method and multiple scientific accrediting agencies throughout the globe as a scientific fact.

[Corwin]

And you're also Irrepressible too!! :)

[txa1265]

Science cannot be argued with,

Well, since your assumption #0 is incorrect I guess we can assume that everything else you are saying is flawed ...

The very foundation of science is argument! Challenging existing theories and , yes, even laws, experimenting again and again ... looking at the same things new ways.

[Unrestigered]

Well, since your assumption #0 is incorrect I guess we can assume that everything else you are saying is flawed ...

The very foundation of science is argument! Challenging existing theories and , yes, even laws, experimenting again and again ... looking at the same things new ways


Maybe where you come from the world is flat and mixing unicorn urine with leprechaun feces magically cures blindness, but science says otherwise, and science says I have impeccable taste, because science is always right.

To prove that science cannot be argued with and thusly proving myself correct (as usual) let us define scientific fact:

Scientific Fact: n
DEFINITION: Any observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true; any scientific observation that has not been refuted; the refuting does not count if made by savages who are impressed by simple things such as fire, spinning wheels, or shinny objects or people who refute facts proven by the scientific method and multiple scientific accrediting agencies throughout the globe as a scientific fact. Science cannot be argued with and anyone who says otherwise is either a pedophile or an uncouth savage.

EXAMPLE: The structure of a cell membrane, global warming, Republicans being evil Nazi’s, and anything Obama says is right and good are all considered scientific facts.

I would also like to point out the definition is also scientific fact and cannot be refuted by anyone who isn’t a pedophile or an uncouth savage either. Looks like science wins again, and my scientifically proven and validated claim of having impeccable taste in crpgs is still scientific fact.

And you're also Irrepressible too!!

I must give full credit to science; it is science that is irrepressible, I'm just taging along.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

and mixing unicorn urine with leprechaun feces magically cures blindness

*takes notes for his next fantasy story*

Great idea you have there ! :)

[txa1265]

because science is always right.

See - it is that sort of blind adherence to dogma that had people believing the things you ridicule ... and also have scientific proof that smoking is actually good for you, that letting blood out of you cured all sorts of ailments (as opposed to just helping with iron issues). And any scientist knows you cannot prove something 'true', but can only fail to disprove it based on the evidence at hand.

[rune_74]

So whats this thread about other then stroking egos?

[Unrestigered]

So whats this thread about other then stroking egos?


Science, savages, taste, lies, and panache, my dear boy. Some might say the very meaning of life itself. And something about a review of some game.

I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm kind of a big deal. People know me. I have several leather bound books. And my apartment smells like rich mahogany. I'm friends with Merle Olsen. He comes over on occasion.

And the answer the question you really want to ask is, “Yes,” I do have a nickname for my penis. I call it the Octagon. I also have a name for me testicles. The left one is James Westfall, and the right one is Dr. Kenneth Noisewater. You fellers play your cards right, you might get to meet the whole gang. In the name of science of course. Its always in the name of science.

[Curunír]

Uh... blergh!

[Alrik Fassbauer]

So, Unrestigered, you talk to them, too ?

What kind of advices do they give to you ?

[txa1265]

They praise his greatness and ominpotence.

Good thing he isn't a boss battle in Drakensang - we'd never win.

Good thing he isn't a playable character - game would crush itself in defeat.

[Dasale]

Usually such idiots wanderer rpgcodex not here. Is this the Drakensang effect?

[Unrestigered]

Well, that really hurts, it makes me feel bad when people call me mean names. If I’m an idiot let us explore what Dasale finds quite smart:

The Dranor quest you quote is a nice little quest, with surprises and quite funny, that worth much more than a sneak skill check.

About that, go on so, there's a skill check then you fail it because in your team you have a dwarf with no sneak skills... Then how it continues? You enter in war with all the town? You kills the guards and nobody notice? Well the game option is the guard dialog that explains the lack of sneak skill check. Quite smart if you ask me.

Exactly. Quite smart indeed. These boys get that syrup in 'em, they get all antsy in their pantsy. Remember, nothing says “good job” like a firm, open-palm slap on the behind.

[Prime Junta]

Science, savages, taste, lies, and panache, my dear boy. Some might say the very meaning of life itself. And something about a review of some game.

I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm kind of a big deal. People know me. I have several leather bound books. And my apartment smells like rich mahogany. I'm friends with Merle Olsen. He comes over on occasion.

And the answer the question you really want to ask is, “Yes,” I do have a nickname for my penis. I call it the Octagon. I also have a name for me testicles. The left one is James Westfall, and the right one is Dr. Kenneth Noisewater. You fellers play your cards right, you might get to meet the whole gang. In the name of science of course. Its always in the name of science.

I take back everything bad I ever said about you. Can I be your friend?

[Unrestigered]

SURE!!!!!:date:

:smitten::date::iloveyou:

[Dasale]

Exactly. Quite smart indeed. These boys get that syrup in 'em, they get all antsy in their pantsy. Remember, nothing says “good job” like a firm, open-palm slap on the behind.
Just one advice stop role play the smart guy you just inspire pity.

[Unrestigered]

My dear boy, I have not yet begun to inspire pity!!!!!!!!:kitty::cake::stupid:

[Thoth]

drama on the internet

[Alrik Fassbauer]

And colourful posts, too.

[Essaliad]

The missing of points in the last few pages is amazing.

I'd like to be your friend, too, Unrestigered.

Usually such idiots wanderer rpgcodex not here. Is this the Drakensang effect?

Show me on the doll where the Codex touched you. Did they run over your dog and rape your sister, too?

[Thrasher]

The cancer is spreading. Bring out the nukes.

[JDR13]

Show me on the doll where the Codex touched you. Did they run over your dog and rape your sister, too?


He has a point though, the Codex does have a large number of immature trolls.

[Brother None]

I'd say a stronger point is that discussing the behaviour of other sites is never, ever useful.

But perhaps that is just me. Not saying this thread has any function anymore, anyway :P

[JDR13]

I'd say a stronger point is that discussing the behaviour of other sites is never, ever useful.


Nothing wrong with pointing to a fact....:)

[Essaliad]

He has a point though, the Codex does have a large number of immature trolls.

Yes, and this site is full of mature, intelligent people who never ever engage in anything but spirited, academic discussion of the higher planes. No pettiness, no immaturity, no stupidity or willful obtuseness at all. Of course.

Come on, now. At least the Codex is honest about what it is and it isn't; most people there don't have pretentious illusions about their moral and intellectual character. Something quite a few, I dare say, could learn from.

[JDR13]

Yes, and this site is full of mature, intelligent people who never ever engage in anything but spirited, academic discussion of the higher planes. No pettiness, no immaturity, no stupidity or willful obtuseness at all. Of course.

Compared to the Codex, it almost does fulfill that description.


Come on, now. At least the Codex is honest about what it is and it isn't; most people there don't have pretentious illusions about their moral and intellectual character. Something quite a few, I dare say, could learn from.

Nobody ever said it wasn't. Hey, if you like to see endless threads of people trying to top each other with insults and surprise links to porn sites, then more power to you.

[Dhruin]

Come on, now. At least the Codex is honest about what it is and it isn't; most people there don't have pretentious illusions about their moral and intellectual character. Something quite a few, I dare say, could learn from.

On the one hand, yes. On the other - no. Sure, a lot of posters are open they are only there for the luls but the idea the Codex is the last bastion of the true, hardcore CRPGer is long gone amidst a sea of johnny-come-lately-ESF-refugees purely there for shits, giggles and goatse linking.

[rune_74]

Yes, and this site is full of mature, intelligent people who never ever engage in anything but spirited, academic discussion of the higher planes. No pettiness, no immaturity, no stupidity or willful obtuseness at all. Of course.

Come on, now. At least the Codex is honest about what it is and it isn't; most people there don't have pretentious illusions about their moral and intellectual character. Something quite a few, I dare say, could learn from.

Why is it no shock that you agree with their behaviour.

[nessosin]

On the one hand, yes. On the other - no. Sure, a lot of posters are open they are only there for the luls but the idea the Codex is the last bastion of the true, hardcore CRPGer is long gone amidst a sea of johnny-come-lately-ESF-refugees purely there for shits, giggles and goatse linking.

Its disputable. Although parts about lulz and chaos on the Codex are certainly true it is also true that many posters are pretty picky about what games they play. And there is evergrowing sentiment for old games. All in all I dont think there is much difference between this forum and the Codex. Around here you just have to keep yourself civil and you vituperations must be more sophisticated. And to be honest in times like these, were some of the oppinions are oppressed by political correctness, sometimes its refreshing to go to the Codex.

[skavenhorde]

And to be honest in times like these, were some of the oppinions are oppressed by political correctness, sometimes its refreshing to go to the Codex.

I've never seen any opinion oppresed by "political correctness" on this site. God even those two words together make me want to vomit and saying that they are here at The Watch is even worse.

I've seen tempers flare, opinions expressed, and hurt feelings, but there is fundemental difference between codex and watch. We aren't calling each other fuckface or asshole!(well most of the time;))

The lulz or whatever the codex wants to call it. Is just stupid bullshit. That's all it is. Rpgwatch doesn't tolorate any BS from people attacking other people online. What's so wrong about that?

[Essaliad]

Compared to the Codex, it almost does fulfill that description.

No, considering this thread and many others, it really doesn't. Just because you're more polite doesn't make you more intelligent or sophisticated. It just means you don't get to swear and have to tread on eggshells around the sensitive crybabies.

The lulz or whatever the codex wants to call it. Is just stupid bullshit. That's all it is. Rpgwatch doesn't tolorate any BS from people attacking other people online. What's so wrong about that?

See? Whenever the Codex comes up, you people react like Christian fundies at the sight of something "ungodly" and start fondling your delusion of superiority like it's your erogenous zone. Self-righteous, sad, and embarrassing to watch.

[zakhal]

I visit many boards from small to large (100k users) and very few have the kind of immature BS that many codex posters like to bloat time to time.

Good example is the huge fallout3 thread where they posted big spoilers about the game's main plot to official fallout boards. Even som codex posters saw that as immature and childish.

Another example is the guy posting few threads on the mmo section of codex. Among good replayes as a new poster he gets this kind of "smart" replays:

"Spambots moved into all of the houses."
"Well, well... an inteligent Spambot - something new."
"Yeah, welcome to the Codex... 'n shit. "
"Gais i rote twelve words abot seom ting in mmos plz red my blog"
"your articles suck. here are some better ones. "
"Fuck MMO's. Play SWAT 4 co-op with your wifey."

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i288/The_Game21/E-thug2.jpg

The biggest board I visit had lots of that kind of smack talk comments spamming almost every new thread until they started to actively ban the posters.

Allthough that doesnt stop me from reading codex though - it does have lots of good threads and posters too.

[JDR13]

No, considering this thread and many others, it really doesn't. Just because you're more polite doesn't make you more intelligent or sophisticated. It just means you don't get to swear and have to tread on eggshells around the sensitive crybabies.

Strange, I don't recall anyone saying a damn thing about being more intelligent or sophisticated. You seem to be missing the point, no surprise there...

[Dhruin]

Its disputable. Although parts about lulz and chaos on the Codex are certainly true it is also true that many posters are pretty picky about what games they play.

I've been around these communities for a long time. I know what I see. Forums are diverse entities - of course there are "picky" people, just as there are idiots here or elsewhere. But I also clearly remember what it used to be like. If you find reason to go there, don't let my comments dissuade you. It's your free time.

No, considering this thread and many others, it really doesn't. Just because you're more polite doesn't make you more intelligent or sophisticated. It just means you don't get to swear and have to tread on eggshells around the sensitive crybabies.

See? Whenever the Codex comes up, you people react like Christian fundies at the sight of something "ungodly" and start fondling your delusion of superiority like it's your erogenous zone. Self-righteous, sad, and embarrassing to watch.

We don't stop you from swearing - we just don't actively encourage it. Anyway, who is "you people"? There are plenty of people here who frequent both sites, presumably like yourself.

It is a pointless discussion, though - BN is right with that.

[skavenhorde]

See? Whenever the Codex comes up, you people react like Christian fundies at the sight of something "ungodly" and start fondling your delusion of superiority like it's your erogenous zone. Self-righteous, sad, and embarrassing to watch.

You're a funny guy Essaliad. Really funny. Calling me a Christian fundy. I'm still laughing my goddamn ass off. You still didn't answer my question. What's wrong with trying to prove a point without calling each other stupid shit, FAIL at "this", or Fail at "that". Come on Essaliad, you can answer the question? Can't you?

By the way, I do like rpgcodex. I especially like the "Let's Play" threads. That doesn't mean I want to post there. I only have so much time each day for stupid bullshit. It's funny to read sometimes, but it's just not my thing. What's wrong with having an opinion other than yours, Essaliad?

Oh and bravo to Unreg :clap: for derailing a thread so completely. I've haven't seen this done in quite a while. Seriously, it's quite an accomplishment to turn a thread for a review for Drakensang into a RPGcodex/RPGwatch debate.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

And what has this discussion to do with Drakensang ?

[Unrestigered]

Oh and bravo to Unreg :clap: for derailing a thread so completely. I've haven't seen this done in quite a while. Seriously, it's quite an accomplishment to turn a thread for a review for Drakensang into a RPGcodex/RPGwatch debate.

Thank you. Your use and placement of the clap emoticon was well done, sir...well done indeed.

And I would like to thank all the little people. Without them, this would not have been possible.

[rune_74]

Thank you. Your use and placement of the clap emoticon was well done, sir...well done indeed.

And I would like to thank all the little people. Without them, this would not have been possible.

How can you possibly be proud of that....I did post about egos earlier....

[Thrasher]

Troll attempt succeeded. Guard yourself against future attacks.

[skavenhorde]

How can you possibly be proud of that....I did post about egos earlier....

You gotta admit he did it with some style. Stupidity, of course, was involved but still entertaining.

And what has this discussion to do with Drakensang ?

Alrik this thread was about a Drankensang review at IGN ;) But that was a looonggg looonnngg time ago.

[Dhruin]

Let's get back to Drakensang, yeah?