Questions about TDE rules

[Grandor Dragon]

As a TDE veteran I thought I would open a thread to gather and answer questions you might have about the rule system in Drakensang.

[wolfing]

As a TDE veteran I thought I would open a thread to gather and answer questions you might have about the rule system in Drakensang.

I don't remember reading anything about it in the manuals or tutorials. Is there a benefit in the game from positional fighting? (flanking, attacking from behind, etc)? The only thing I've read is how you can only parry one attack (or 2 with a shield), but no mention of bonuses if you attack from behind.

[Curunír]

Attacks from behind cannot be parried.

[wolfing]

Attacks from behind cannot be parried.

Thanks. Also, when using plant lore to gather plants, it says something like 'difficulty added 4' or '3'. What's that? Is that a random thing or am I missing a tool or something?

[Grandor Dragon]

You are missing a tool. It's the same thing when try to pick locks with your bare hand. So once you have a tool, keep it in a quickslot, then when you see a plant, klick on the tool and on the plant.

[Curunír]

Thanks. Also, when using plant lore to gather plants, it says something like 'difficulty added 4' or '3'. What's that? Is that a random thing or am I missing a tool or something?

Every kind of plant has a certain difficulty associated with it, this difficulty will be subtracted from your Plant Lore talent prowess prior to the check. This makes different plants easier or harder to pick.

The same applies to different locks, animals, artifacts to be identified via magic lore, etc.

There are tools for plant lore, animal lore, etc. later in the game, but unlike lockpicking they only bestow a bonus, not using tools is not further penalized (only for lockpicking).

[Curunír]

You are missing a tool. It's the same thing when try to pick locks with your bare hand. So once you have a tool, keep it in a quickslot, then when you see a plant, klick on the tool and on the plant.

Sorry, but you are wrong.
Lack of tools for everything but lockpicking does not penalize you, the tools just add a bonus.

Further lockpicks and hairpins are the only tools you have to use manually (via quickslot bar), every tool that bestows a permanent bonus (meaning, it is not used up after use) works automatically from the backpack when attempting the associated task.

[Grandor Dragon]

Short explanation of "difficulty added" means in TDE: Generally in this game, the lower you roll your D20, the better. You usually need to be lower than a certain value to succeed. So if your Intelligence is 12, you need to roll 12 or lower to succeed in a standard check. If difficulty is added, the value is added to the number you roll. So if you roll a 10, but the check is +4, your 10 becomes 14. In case of an intelligence check, it would mean that you failed.

It is a bit more complex for skill checks (as opposed to the attribute check above), but the principle is the same. I don't know how elaborate the manual is, but if you want me to explain skill checks, just ask.

[Grandor Dragon]

Sorry, but you are wrong.
Lack of tools for everything but lockpicking does not penalize you, the tools just add a bonus.

Further lockpicks and hairpins are the only tools you have to use manually (via quickslot bar), every tool that bestows a permanent bonus (meaning, it is not used up after use) works automatically from the backpack when attempting the associated task.

Forgot about the first point, never knew about the second :) Good that there are others here who can help out.

[Curunír]

Short explanation of "difficulty added" means in TDE: Generally in this game, the lower you roll your D20, the better. You usually need to be lower than a certain value to succeed. So if your Intelligence is 12, you need to roll 12 or lower to succeed in a standard check. If difficulty is added, the value is added to the number you roll. So if you roll a 10, but the check is +4, your 10 becomes 14. In case of an intelligence check, it would mean that you failed. It is a bit more complex for skill checks (as opposed to the attribute check above), but the principle is the same. I don't know how elaborate the manual is, but if you want me to explain skill checks, just ask. I posted something about this on the official forums, which are unfortunately down. As soon as they are up again, I will copy-paste it here. PS: As far as I remember there are no (or at least nearly no) direct attribute checks in the game, which is a bit unfortunate, because it makes the price for attribute increases much too steep (unless later in the game or if you require certain attributes for special abilities).

EDIT: Here is a little explanation of the talent check process:
http://www.chromatrix.com/html/talents.html

Note: As far as I have noticed, the EEC (effective encumbrance) rules do not affect normal talents like sneaking, only combat talents (that is your values with a certain type of weapon), in Drakensang. At least the console output doesn't change whether you attempt pickpocketing with 0 encumbrance or 5 encumbrance.

[Grandor Dragon]

One question I had: Do you know if the amount of skill points you gain for cetain encounters and quests is similar to what you would get in the pen&paper version?
I didn't pay much attention to that, but I had the feeling that the fact that you get the same amount of skill points. Since zou have less skills in the CRPG than in the P&PRPG, this results in you reaching high proficiency much faster. You just don't have that many choices. In the pen&paper game it was extremely rare that I had 18 or so in a skill. In Drakensang it is much more common.

[Curunír]

One question I had: Do you know if the amount of skill points you gain for cetain encounters and quests is similar to what you would get in the pen&paper version? I didn't pay much attention to that, but I had the feeling that the fact that you get the same amount of skill points. Since zou have less skills in the CRPG than in the P&PRPG, this results in you reaching high proficiency much faster. You just don't have that many choices. In the pen&paper game it was extremely rare that I had 18 or so in a skill. In Drakensang it is much more common. I never played PnP DSA (= TDE in English), although I have some 3rd edition rule books from someone who did not needed them anymore (and of course the 4th ed. basic rules on the German Drakensang DVD) and read them with pleasure. However, many people on the official forums noted, that in PnP one normally retires around level 12 or so. As you will reach a higher level in Drakensang, while having significantly less skills, special abilities and spells to choose from, that indeed leads to half-maxed-out jacks-of-all-trades by the late game, unfortunately.

EDIT: But we should stop the discussion here, otherwise we'll turn your fine "newbie" (no offence meant) help thread into an insider discussion thread and spark more confusion than clarification. *g*

[txa1265]

I appreciate all of the cool info, but not finding it necessary to play and enjoy the game, fortunately!

[Curunír]

I appreciate all of the cool info, but not finding it necessary to play and enjoy the game, fortunately!

Yes, of course "the higher the skill value, the more I succeed" is a fairly good approximation. *g*
It's just for guys like me, who love to dive deep into the game mechanics.

Actually, if you know the mechanics all to well, it often gets too easy anyway. So have fun on your trial-and-error first playthrough (after all, some of the fun of games actually comes from these trial-and-error experiences).

Nonetheless, I'm always ready to answer more of your questions.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

If needed, here's more general info: http://forum.ulisses-spiele.de/viewtopic.php?t=3480

You can read a good deal of rules online through the menu on the left side from here:
http://www.chromatrix.com/html/tde-mobile.html
This also conrtains some general information.

[JDR13]

I appreciate all of the cool info, but not finding it necessary to play and enjoy the game, fortunately!

That reminds me of the first time I played Baldur's Gate. I had never played pen&paper D&D, and I had to look up the meaning of a few words (IE. THACO), but it only made the experience more interesting.

[txa1265]

That reminds me of the first time I played Baldur's Gate. I had never played pen&paper D&D, and I had to look up the meaning of a few words (IE. THACO), but it only made the experience more interesting.

Some of the old D&D lingo is just nutty, especially explaining it to my kids who have just played 4th Ed. stuff ...

[Dhruin]

Advice on character development, please. I'm not a min/maxer but I'd like some frame of reference. How often do you increase primary stats (strength etc)? If I increase my 2-handed axe from 8 to 9, is that a tiny or significant increase? What would be considered a good value for the primary weapon of a starting character and what should it be by the end of the game (ie, the before mentioned axe)? What about crafting skills?

Thanks. :)

[Grandor Dragon]

If you increase any combat ability by 1, your chances of either attacking or parrying an attack (you can choose) rise by 5%. 8 or 9 for level 1 is very decent.

You will raise attributes less often than skills. Raising attributes benefits every skill that checks on this attribute, that inckudes your basic value of attacking/parrying. Others might want to elaborate on this.

[VPeric]

Also, is experiance shared among party members or not? I mean, will I get more exp with fewer party members, or should I go all out and get all four as soon as possible?

[Arhu]

How often do you increase primary stats (strength etc)? If I increase my 2-handed axe from 8 to 9, is that a tiny or significant increase?
I'm not sure, but as I like to specialize, I only increased skills in the beginning. They are much cheaper too. Here's an example:

My main character was an Elven Ranger who trained in herbs, perception, bows and all bow related skills including bow making, as well as two or three related spells. At some point I needed a minimum "base long range combat value" (don't know what it's called exactly, should be listed on your character's weapon skill page) to be able to get one of the better talents. Right clicking on the value tells you which stats it is governed by - calculation was something like strength+dexterity+something / 5. So those were the ones I increased a bit.

Much later in the game I almost exclusively increased primary stats because the skills I wanted were already maxed out.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

What I know as "Selbstbeherrschung" from the German version must definitively - I think - be pushed relatively high !

This skill allows the character to ignore wounds and heavy beatings, which means in the result that the possibility of being wounded is decreased.

I found it necessary to have it relatively high.

Finding herbs is imho also very good, because it allows you to have a good supply of herbs for healing.

Which I also put several points into was healing itself. At least with one permanent party member.

All in all, I developed a rather defensive party-character building.

[Majnun]

Also, is experiance shared among party members or not?

Experience is divided among all party members so you should fill out your party as soon as possible (so everyone is getting the xp).

You may see different experience gains from kills going to different characters. This has nothing to do with what they did or did not do in the fight I'm pretty sure the xp gained from kills is based on the level of the creature compared to the level of the character. In the eary game I had 2 people that were lvl 2 and Dranor was level 3. For killing rats the level 2's both got 4xp per kill but Dranor only got 2xp per kill. But I'm pretty sure quest experience rewards are fixed and not in relation to your level so every would get the same reward (4 party members get 25xp each...but 1 party member would still only get 25xp (not 100))

[txa1265]

I assumed it was level based as I saw some members get 10XP while others got 20 for a given completion of quest.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The higher the level, the less xp are received - at least for killing creatures/monsters.
I don't remember that applying to quests, too. I just don't know anymore.

[crpgnut]

Okay, if someone has time explain weapon damage. I'll have a weapon that does something like 1D+2(1W+3) for 13 Strength. If you have a handy explanation of spell damage that would help too. I'm guessing 1 die of damage +2 but I have no idea what 1W+3 is talking about....

[Fenris]

TDE uses only two kinds of dice: 6-sided and 20-sided.

1W+3 means you roll a 6-sided dice and add 3 to the outcome.

The 20-sided is used by tests of skills and attributes.

Edit
W is for "Würfel", the german word for Dice :)

[Dhruin]

So what's the 1D+2 bit? No wonder I couldn't figure out the "W" - you can't expect English players to get that. Need that GamersGate manual...

[Fenris]

I guess they changed the "W" for "D" in the first case and left the "W" in the second ?

There are a lot changes in the rueles since the time I played (so 20 years ago ^^) so I can only guess that the first Value stands for the Base-Damage of the Weapon and the second for the overall Damage with the Strength-Bonus of your Character ?

Back in my days every Strength-Point above 12 gave bonus-damage - AFAIK they changed this mechanic dramaticaly.

[Arhu]

I'll have a weapon that does something like 1D+2(1W+3) for 13 Strength.
Localization bug / oversight. As Fenris said, W = D, so it should probably be:

1D+2 (1D+3 for 13 strength)

The first value tells you how much damage a weapon does. And the value in parentheses is the damage caused by the weapon including strength bonus.

As for spell damage.. that's a bit trickier. Some spells do damage based on mana consumed, others do more damage the higher the modifier is. The modifier can be set via small arrows on the spell icons in your quickslot bar as you gain levels. The modifier raises the spells' mana cost too.

I'm not too versed in the rules myself, I only know what I figured out in the game, so if others can offer a more detailed overview, please do so.

[crpgnut]

I wondered what those little arrows were for! I was wondering why my level 12 Ignifaxus was no more powerful than my level 4 one :)

[CarcusRex]

Two questions, if I may: Does the charactor's base PA(Parry) value ever go up... say per level or something? Can I facilitate this? One of my characters really needs Master Parry but her base PA is 1 shy.

Also, as pertaining to shields: one shield has a Weapon Bonus: 0/1. Another has a Weapon Bonus: -1/3. What does this mean? I thought the 0/1 was better, but that shield is somewhat cheaper to sell.

[Grandor Dragon]

Answer to your first question: You raise your base values (attack, parry, ranged) by raising attributes. These base values are calculated by adding three attributes (for parry it is Intuition+Dexterity+Strength divided by 5, AFAIR, but you should be able to look it up in the game by rightclicking on your base value).

Second question: The -1/3 shield protexts you more. The first value is the modifier for your attack values when using the shield, so it's -1, 5% less chance of a success (for example, your attack value might drop from 15 to 14, you need to roll your value or lower with a D20 to successfully attack). 3 gets added to parrying.

[CarcusRex]

I see. Thank you, Grandor.

[Curunír]

Two small clarifications:

1. Base parry value is Intuition + Agility (not Dexterity) + Strength divided by 5. The result is rounded, so the value increases by one point when you reach a total in the three attributes of ...,33, 38, 43, 48, 53 and so on...

2. The parry modifier of the shield only affects your shield parry, not your weapon parry. If you are using a shield you have two parries: a weapon parry (first value) and a shield parry (second value). I'd still recommend you to use shields with high parry modifiers (even if it costs you one or two points of attack).

[CarcusRex]

Ah yes... that's a good clarification on the rounding of values, Curunir. That's the first thing that struck me when I dove back into the game - with 36 and dividable by 5, I had 7.2... I was wondering if I was going to need to raise up the cheapest of those three stats by 4 points. That seemed like it would take forever, considering how expensive they are. Thanks for that!

[Santos]

Great thread, thanks! Here's an easy one: a successful pickpocket check will always reveal everything on the victim, correct? I assume the pockets don't get "deeper" the greater the skill.

[Arhu]

Here's an easy one: a successful pickpocket check will always reveal everything on the victim, correct? I assume the pockets don't get "deeper" the greater the skill.
I think so, yes. An unsuccessful pickpocket check, however, won't let you pickpocket the same target again, so be careful.

Important named NPCs occasionally carry very valuable stuff! You'll need a rather high pickpocket skill though.

[vanedor]

What does gaining a level do, exactly?

You can raise your skills higher... but is there anything else, do you gain "hit point"? Speaking of hit point, it seems to have another meaning than what we usually have.

[vanedor]

The broad sword you obtain at the beginning has a weapon stat of 0/-1. What does it mean exactly? You have 2 attacks by turn and there is a -1 penalty on the second one?

On weapons... what's the difference between a 1d+3 mace and a 1d+3 axe, a 1d3 saber, or a 1d+3 sword. Seems they are all pretty much the same. My warrior has a bonus with swords, how is this bonus reflected?

[wolfing]

The broad sword you obtain at the beginning has a weapon stat of 0/-1. What does it mean exactly? You have 2 attacks by turn and there is a -1 penalty on the second one?

On weapons... what's the difference between a 1d+3 mace and a 1d+3 axe, a 1d3 saber, or a 1d+3 sword. Seems they are all pretty much the same. My warrior has a bonus with swords, how is this bonus reflected?

as stated above, the first number applies to your attack, the second to your parry. So, a 0/-1 means it doesn't add or subtract to your attack, but it reduces your parry by 1. As far as I know, there are no differences on the weapons except your skill on them, oh, and range (staves and spears have longer range so enemies with smaller weapons have penalties, I think I read that somewhere)

[vanedor]

Thanks! I thought this sort of stat was for shields only.

[Grandor Dragon]

What does gaining a level do, exactly?

You can raise your skills higher... but is there anything else, do you gain "hit point"? Speaking of hit point, it seems to have another meaning than what we usually have.

Apart from raising your skill limits as you correctly describe, levels are pretty formal.

Yes, "hit points" in D&D refers to the "amount of life in your body at the moment". in TDE that would be vitality points (not sure about the translations). TDE players without D&D exposure would think that "hit points" mean damage. Does the English Drakensang use the term "hit points"?

[vanedor]

The expression "hit point" is used in the score sheet but for something else.

The life level is indicated by "vitality".

[Fastjack]

Vitality and vitality points.

They can be raised regardless from your level if you got enough leveling points. Hit points are the amount of damage inflicted by an unparried attack. Vitality points are lowered by these hit points deducted by armor rating.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The 4th edition of the TDE rule set tends towards a system without any real ldvels, because you can basically distribute points on your character's stats any time.

In earlier editrions, you could do that only when your character had reached a new level.

In the early discussions about a possible 5th edition people all tend to axe levels alltogether, and measure characters only with their amounts of experience points.

[vanedor]

I see. Interesting.

Drakensang is based on the fourth edition?

[Bladeheart]

With reference to the use of tools to craft items, gather plants, etc.

Could someone please tell which tools are of used for what?
I have come across a smithy's hammer to assist in balcksmithing, hairpins and lock picks, and finger blades, but wonder what other items there are.

Many thanks :)

[Grandor Dragon]

I see. Interesting.

Drakensang is based on the fourth edition?

Yes. Though it is somewhat watered down (less skills, super-fast regeneration etc.).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes. I even tend to say it's 4.1 (the newest edition), but I don't remember that anymore.

And yes, I must agree to Grandor Dragon. The regeneration, for example, is just ridiculous. This NEVER happens in that way in P&P ! (As far as I know.)

[Gorath]

Maybe. And which CRPG player would be willing to wait for hours until his party is regenerated?!

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well, at least some kind of camping would've done the trick, too. People who play D&D-based games are already accustomed to that.

[Grandor Dragon]

Well, at least some kind of camping would've done the trick, too. People who play D&D-based games are already accustomed to that.

Yes. Or simply have fewer battles. TDE is not designed for constant fighting. Drakensang could have done with 25% of the battles, if it had emphasised on its more adventure elements and other skills. This would have been harder to design though, much harder.

[CarcusRex]

With reference to the use of tools to craft items, gather plants, etc.

Could someone please tell which tools are of used for what?
I have come across a smithy's hammer to assist in balcksmithing, hairpins and lock picks, and finger blades, but wonder what other items there are.

Many thanks :)

Forgive me for not remembering its name or the exact stat increase it provides to animal lore, but one useful tool I found was a small skinning knife with a curved blade which really improved my animal gutting success quite a bit... a very useful tool. But to allude to one of my earlier niggles, even with said tool, when you're standing in the middle of 8 or ten dead Wolf Rats, with how long the animations take, it's nothing short of a CHORE to gut them for sinews and such...

[txa1265]

Just a general 'thanks for all of the info' once again ... with my limited access to the forums, by the time I have a question, it seems to have been asked AND answered!

[Bladeheart]

CarcusRex,
Thanks for the reply, now we have the smithy's hammer and the skinning knife; now all I need is to find out what to use to dig up those festering fungi !!! :)

Cheers:thumbsup:

[Arhu]

Thanks for the reply, now we have the smithy's hammer and the skinning knife; now all I need is to find out what to use to dig up those festering fungi !!! :)

A tool for herbalism would be the sickle (herbalism +2).

[CarcusRex]

Indeed, I just picked up the Herb Sickle from the female herbalist inside the Moorbridge Inn. (can't remember where I found the furrier's knife) Remember to put them in your quickslot for use... like hairpin.

[Bladeheart]

..... and thank you too Arhu, :)

So that's the Smthy's hammer from the Dwarf Blacksmith in Fedrok.
The Herb sickle from the herbalist in the Morrbridge Inn.
The furrier's knife can be found in the sewers below Fedrok and purchased later (see posts below)

I will update this as more details come to light. :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes. Or simply have fewer battles. TDE is not designed for constant fighting. Drakensang could have done with 25% of the battles, if it had emphasised on its more adventure elements and other skills. This would have been harder to design though, much harder.

And it would've been much closer to the P&P kind of gameplay.

But instead the devs wanted to make some kind of Baldur's Gate (they stated the game as their "model" often enough in interviews).

And everyone knows that BG is combat-heavy.

Although, if you are used to combat-heavy RPGs, you'll hardly notice. It's just the effect of adaption.

[Gorath]

And it would've been much closer to the P&P kind of gameplay.

Get real. Who wants to play such a game?

If I want to play P&P I buy a P&P set.

[wolfing]

Get real. Who wants to play such a game?

If I want to play P&P I buy a P&P set.

Without ever playing the original P&P I'm perfectly fine with the amount of combat in this game (so far). Only exception in the moors with the seemingly ever-respawning undeads (even after I removed their source), but it's minor.

[Gorath]

The respawning should stop if you destroyed all sources.

[txa1265]

Get real. Who wants to play such a game?

If I want to play P&P I buy a P&P set.

QFT - the closer they get to PnP the less interesting it becomes - there is a certain 'uncanny valley' for that sort of thing as well. (I look at the PSP D&D Tactics as crossing that line)

[crpgnut]

The furrier's knife is located in the sewers underneath Ferdok. You'll need a Dwarf to see the secret door, but it's during the main quest that leads you below the city.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

You can buy the knife much, much later, too.

[Bladeheart]

crpgnut and Alrik Fassbaur,
Thanks for the updates I will edit the post above. Anyone who has info on similar tools for bowyer, etc. please let us know. :)

[vanedor]

Although, if you are used to combat-heavy RPGs, you'll hardly notice. It's just the effect of adaption.

Does a thing such as a non combat-heavy rpg even exist?

[Grandor Dragon]

It's all relative, I guess. Torment and the first Fallouts were less combat heavy than, for example, other infinity engine games. Some Ultimas has also relatively little combat.

You are of course right. Generally, you spend a lot of time in combat. I guess RPGs are usually tied to a genre in which people shoot at each other or chop each other's limbs of. It would be interesting to see an RPG with very little or even no combat.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes, that's something I'd like to se, to.

I once read that Al-Qadim mainly consisted of riddles ?

Edit: Wikipedia puts Al-Quadim into the Action-RPG sub-genre ...

[CarcusRex]

"little or even no combat"??? Hmmm, I'm certainly no fan of Action RPGs, but no combat... I'm not sure leveling up just for thieving and social skills would be enough to make character advancement fun for me. No, I need at least SOME combat. Limited but strategic, party based combat is the way go, imo.

[Curunír]

Yes, that's something I'd like to se, to.

I once read that Al-Qadim mainly consisted of riddles ?

Edit: Wikipedia puts Al-Quadim into the Action-RPG sub-genre ...

It has been some time, but I've played Al-Qadim a bit.
In general, it feels like Zelda (though I never really played those games for long, either), click-click-click to kill enemies, no real character progression, but some puzzles. Certainly not my cup of tea. The story seemed somewhat interesting as far as I can remember (it is about ten years or so ago when I played it).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

No, I need at least SOME combat.

Here our definnitions of role-playing differ.

Role-playing is for me to play a role, which means it might well be without combat, too.

Playing a role and character growth is the most important element in RPGs for me.

[crpgnut]

To me, role-playing and crpgs are totally different animals. The roots of crpgs are stat-driven combat machines. The story was just kinda slapped on to give you a reason to fight the endless masses and to have a beginning and ending. You had stat development, exploration, and combat as the primary pieces of the engine. Adventure games are where they told the stories. When the adventure genre died, it somehow got rolled into our crpgs. I can live with it, but I hate games where the story takes precendence over stat-building, loot acquisition, and exploration. I know that there are many here that disagree with this.

[RivianWitch]

I once read that Al-Qadim mainly consisted of riddles ?

Edit: Wikipedia puts Al-Quadim into the Action-RPG sub-genre ...

It does? Last I looked at the Wikipedia entry, it classed the game as AD&D. (Advanced Dragons and Dungeons).

Not that I ever played the game, it's a bit old for me. I'm wondering if it's DOS or Win.3.1. Some of those games from that era (1992) actually did both.

Interesting that you referred to it, anyway - I find the setting interesting; - it would be nice to do an RPG in a Persian setting for a change; - most of the current ones seem to be medieval or space-themed. (Ok, ok - and nuclear post-apocolyptic.. :rolleyes: :p )

Sorry for wandering a bit off-topic here, I was just planning on lurking and sponging up as much Drakensang info as possible. :)

[RivianWitch]

To me, role-playing and crpgs are totally different animals. The roots of crpgs are stat-driven combat machines. The story was just kinda slapped on to give you a reason to fight the endless masses and to have a beginning and ending. You had stat development, exploration, and combat as the primary pieces of the engine. Adventure games are where they told the stories. When the adventure genre died, it somehow got rolled into our crpgs. I can live with it, but I hate games where the story takes precendence over stat-building, loot acquisition, and exploration. I know that there are many here that disagree with this.

Ok, obviously I'm in a chatty mood. Crpgnut, I'm going to disagree with you, because I love a story, and I find adventure games generally too slow and boring, so I find it nice now that other genres are bringing interesting stories into the mix.

At first I was a bit taken aback, for instance, when strategy games started to come with a decently cobbled together story, all put together in a huge campaign, as, like you, I used to focus on the stats and the strategy aspects before.

...but playing your ActionRpg/CRPG/TBS/RTS in a story setting really kinda grows on you. It's grown on me anyway, and now I actually expect it.

For instance, I'm one of those Witcher fans. Sure, the game lacked quite greatly in the RPG department, but it was one of the funnest games I had played in a long time, and although you didn't sit for hours trying to figure what weapons or armour to buy next, there was still other kinds of stats and strategy involved.

I know what you mean though, some of us have a stats itch, and that itch needs scratching... :-/

[crpgnut]

I'm probably an explorer itch person first. I love big games with lots of stuff to find. Then I like combining the stuff to make other stuff, so alchemy always hits well with me as does most types of crafting. Stats are very important to me, but I can go without a story or just a hastily scribbled one. I love Bethesda games, but the story lovers hate that game. Gothic, PST, Bloodlines etc, all drive me nuttier. I keep waiting for the book to get good and I always end up quitting before I get too far. I loved Questron, Legacy of the Ancients, Legend of Blacksilver, Might and Magic, etc. long before the story crpgs came along. I still prefer them to one that gets long-winded. I can sometimes enjoy a crpg that takes time to tell a story. The Witcher was one of these. It had enough other stuff that I could live with the story and the horrible dialogue.

[Ergonpandilus]

A good example of how P&P rules works on CRPG is Baldur's Gate series. Everything is very close to P&P, like regeneration is very slow, unlike with Drakensang which differs from P&P much more.

I personally would like to see as slow regeneration in Drakensang as it's in TDE P&P rules. In that way, you would have to build a campfire, make a tent and rest a moment or sleep in rent room in one of the taverns. But I guess they left all that out together with day and night cycle, because of low budget.

[Gorath]

I don't see the fun in this. I'm happy they left it out. Unnecessary micromanagement.

[Curunír]

I don't see the fun in this. I'm happy they left it out. Unnecessary micromanagement.

Well, the fun could be that you have to manage your ressources for a string of battles instead of only one battle. For instance, when you wouldn't auto-regenerate while you are trapped in a certain castle on a certain 3rd quest in Drakensang, that would add quite some tension and an additional strategic level to the affair.

However that would require a bit different game design overall and yes, one would have to think hard how to avoid superfluous or at least nuisant micromanagement. If one would simply deactivate auto-regeneration in Drakensang (as it is) that would create much more nuisance than fun.

[wolfing]

I don't see the fun in this. I'm happy they left it out. Unnecessary micromanagement.

It's not that it's fun or not. It's that the game is based on a ruleset that has been designed and tested based on certain things, everything balanced to that end. When you change something like this (regen time), you may unbalance some things, remove the need for some spells/skills, which in turn makes it so you have too many skill points to distribute, so you either reduce these, or let characters be much more powerful than they should. It's like a domino effect. Besides, camping to recover mana/health can actually add to the game in the form of ambushes, random encounters, some inter-character interactions, etc.

[Arhu]

It's not that it's fun or not. It's that the game is based on a ruleset that has been designed and tested based on certain things, everything balanced to that end.
But a system made for one medium almost always needs to be adapted for another medium in order to work. That's why the LotR movies aren't 100% faithful to the books or why there are Oscars for best adapted screenplay, or why PC gamers are so afraid of things like consolitis.

I'm happy about the way they adapted the P&P ruleset to a PC game. Some things just wouldn't work otherwise.

[vanedor]

Well, the fun could be that you have to manage your ressources for a string of battles instead of only one battle. For instance, when you wouldn't auto-regenerate while you are trapped in a certain castle on a certain 3rd quest in Drakensang, that would add quite some tension and an additional strategic level to the affair.


I totally agree. This was something great in older games like the bg serie. NWN2 blew it entirely by permitting the characters to rest anywhere anytime except during a battle.

In a way, it even diminishes the micromanagement as you don't use all your spells all the time. For many of the minor fights, your mages would mostly use missile weapons and/or low levels spells... keeping the heavy artillery for major encounters where they are really needed. This gives a totally different dynamic to combats and make for a more "realistic" low magic world.

[VPeric]

I totally agree. This was something great in older games like the bg serie. NWN2 blew it entirely by permitting the characters to rest anywhere anytime except during a battle.

You do mean NWN 1, right? Because NWN2 was a bit better in that regard, IIRC. Storm of Zehir, at least, had a decent resting mechanic.

[wolfing]

You do mean NWN 1, right? Because NWN2 was a bit better in that regard, IIRC. Storm of Zehir, at least, had a decent resting mechanic.

I haven't played any expansion, and didn't play NWN1, but NWN2 OC is just as bad.

[vanedor]

I played only NWN2 OC so I have no idea what it is in SOZ. I remember cleaning warehouse in NWN2 where I could rest after basically every rooms. And gosh, it was even more boring than clearing these rat tunnels in Drakensang.

Glad they improved it in SOZ. I might buy NWN2 gold or platinum or whatever edition with all the expansions once they release it.

[vanedor]

One of the reasons I think of about why it was even more boring in NWN2 OC, it's because of the combat ai. The game expected you to control one character and let the ai deals with the rest. Managing your entire party was a chore while it is something fun in Drakensang and was even funnier in BG because you felt more in control. The horde of rats wouldnt step over your characters to attack your mage if your warrior stood in a strategic place. This might be one of my most important gripe about Drakensang combat.

[matziq]

One of the reasons I think of about why it was even more boring in NWN2 OC, it's because of the combat ai. The game expected you to control one character and let the ai deals with the rest. Managing your entire party was a chore while it is something fun in Drakensang and was even funnier in BG because you felt more in control. The horde of rats wouldnt step over your characters to attack your mage if your warrior stood in a strategic place. This might be one of my most important gripe about Drakensang combat.

Also, the AI refuses to use "specials" unless you specifically tell it to. The exception to this is summoned creatures will use specials until they run out of energy.

[vanedor]

Yes, I know there's the puppet mode. But the game was certainly not designed around it and made controlling the party a chore. I know they improved that in successive patches but still...