Gothic 3 - Review @ Pro-G

[Dhruin]

Pro-G has reviewed (http://www.pro-g.co.uk/pc/gothic_3/review.html) the Euro version of Gothic 3. Saying that the state of the game "must be in breach of some trading standards law somewhere" after playing unpatched, the score is still 6/10 because of some addicting factors:
So, what have I listed up so far for Gothic 3? Terrible graphics, dialogue and narration, and a needlessly resource-hungry engine that renders a large amount of the game unplayable? Yep, check all those. But, ludicrous as it sounds, Gothic 3 has some strangely addictive and compelling qualities that I really have no explanation for. I've been playing the game for a fair while now and I've waged war in one awful duel after another. Each time I've lamented the lack of exciting, realistic sound effects as swords bounce silently off each other. Each time I've been in fear of another game crash or stutter-bug. Each time I've sworn that this is the last goddamn time I will try to kill a bandit in my life.
But each time I end up coming back for more. And I don't understand why. The game is obviously unfinished and badly made; it's the very type of game that developers shouldn't be allowed to release as, in my opinion, an unplayable game must be in breach of some trading standards law somewhere. It goes against the very nature of a game.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=2756)

[Hindukönig]

"Needlessly resource-hungry engine"?

People - please stop trying to look competent by judging several manyears of programming. Gothic 3 has really a big, seamless world not based on heightmaps. There ist no "needlessly resource-hungry" when you consider this.

[doctor_kaz]

I at least don't agree that graphics are terrible. Indoor areas don't look good, but outdoor areas are beautiful in some places. Vegetation looks great and so do a lot of the monsters. The trolls look incredible.

[HiddenX]

maybe I should send them a link to our "Gothic 3 Tweaks ?" - Thread :-)

[ToddMcF2002]

I think calling the graphics "terrible" is a bit much.

Given the system requirements they don't meet expectations, but they certainly arent terrible. The Gambryoish LOD popping however, now THAT is terrible.

[txa1265]

Given the system requirements they don't meet expectations, but they certainly arent terrible.
That was my thought - with my setup I think the game looks very nice )and I have rarely seen mushrooms hanging above eye level ;) ) - it is the performance per GHz / GB that feels inadequate.

[ToddMcF2002]

I think it is very appropriate to compare Oblivion and Gothic 3 relative to system requirements. Clearly PB was shooting for Oblivion visuals. They made the decision to stream RAM the whole game - and now they will face the consequences. They fell a tad short of Oblivions visuals - and that won't sit well. They risked stability issues with a technology they werent quite up to task for (and even XP isnt quite up to task for) and here is the result. Not a good payoff simply to avoid a load screen every few hours of gameplay.

How many times did you think "damn all these load screens!" when playing G2???

[doctor_kaz]

I think it is very appropriate to compare Oblivion and Gothic 3 relative to system requirements. Clearly PB was shooting for Oblivion visuals. They made the decision to stream RAM the whole game - and now they will face the consequences. They fell a tad short of Oblivions visuals - and that won't sit well. They risked stability issues with a technology they werent quite up to task for (and even XP isnt quite up to task for) and here is the result. Not a good payoff simply to avoid a load screen every few hours of gameplay.

How many times did you think "damn all these load screens!" when playing G2???

I agree. Especially since the game's mini-freezeups for streaming new areas are often as long as Oblivion's actual distinct loads.

Also, I think that they fell far short of Oblivion's visuals. Not to mention, they also fell far short of Oblivion's physics engine and combat AI, which were big parts of that game.

[ToddMcF2002]

Its very difficult to swallow the fact that I have to go play Oblivion at high detail because my machine can't handle Gothic 3 at medium detail. How rediculous is that? Its pretty frustrating actually.

[txa1265]

Especially since the game's mini-freezeups for streaming new areas are often as long as Oblivion's actual distinct loads.
I don't find that to be true - I was constantly annoyed at Oblivion having to load so much - plus you get the mini-freeze for streaming the open world.

Also, I think that they fell far short of Oblivion's visuals. Not to mention, they also fell far short of Oblivion's physics engine and combat AI, which were big parts of that game.
Maybe I need to log more hours, but I prefer Gothic 3's combat system, and think that they both have pretty crappy physics (and combat) compared to something like Dark Messiah. But I can see it as a point that some would prefer one over the other - I just don't see it as a 'far short' type of difference.

[Dhruin]

I agree they weren't as successful as (I assume) even they would have probably liked but I disagree it was the wrong decision to attempt it. One of the very reasons Gothic offers a more compelling world is little things like real windows and being able to see people inside buildings. Time will tell if they can tweak the performance but I think it's a bit presumptuous to claim the performance/Mhz ratio is inadequate based on one other game that has to load every single interior cell no matter how small and has NPC AI that is so broken it's hilarious. If it's so easy, where are all the other competitors?

[txa1265]

has NPC AI that is so broken it's hilarious.

That was one thing from the Codex article way back that I loved ... I mean, I remember hearing about the vaunted 'Radiant AI' system, and the only thing that it seemed to do was have random people on horseback go past me on occasion. Otherwise G2 *still* feels much more alive than Oblivion.

[ToddMcF2002]

So does G1.

[Corwin]

Did you notice the reviewer hasn't actually finished the game? He's still playing it!! That is inexcusable. How can you properly review a game while still only partway through it. I wonder if he's even been to the other lands yet!! I give the review a D.

[txa1265]

Did you notice the reviewer hasn't actually finished the game? He's still playing it!!
At least he is honest - many reviewers don't finish and then pretend they know the game. I just reviewed Star Trek Tactical Assault for the DS and then read a couple of reviews - some are terribly inaccurate!

I couldn't imagine signing my name to a game I'd not finished ...

[Maylander]

To be honest I'm more surprised NWN2 has as low fps as it does, considering Gothic 3 is a huge, open world and NWN2 is divided into fairly small modules.

[Corwin]

I think the graphics are better in G3 than NWN2 as well. My Greatsword in NWN2 looks pathetic!!

[Pfandpirat]

I think it´s very harsh to call the graphics in G3 terrible. The water looks pretty ugly, thats true but once you enter a forest you just have to say "wow". Thats how a lively and dense forest should look like, the graphic in G3 is just not optimized for eyecandy.
The world in Oblivion looks like it was taken from a theme park, but yeah, the water is nice:rolleyes:

[Gokyabgu]

I think the reviewer is a little bit dumb to apply any patch to the game.

[ToddMcF2002]

Thats a standard policy for a few reviewers. Firingsquad used to do that if I recall, don't know if that's still the case.

[txa1265]

Thats a standard policy for a few reviewers. Firingsquad used to do that if I recall, don't know if that's still the case.

Patch policies are changing at most places - especially when you have games like NWN 1 & 2 with an update button on the front panel, or Dark Messiah where you need to connect to the internet to authenticate. But it is still a gray area in many places, especially for something like Gothic 3 that is single player only.

[curious]

gothic 3 has an automatic updated that runs on mondays. even when you shut it off!

[aries100]

HI :)

I have been playing the demo for a days now. I've found that the gameplay, story etc. are very well crafted and the sound and visuals look great as well. Personally, I like the graphics and how the game has that old Gothic feeling - much better, imo, than Oblivion's very polished & shiny graphics.

I get the feeling that I'm immersed in a realistic game world in which my choices have real consequences. In Oblivion, I just get the feeling that I'm in somekind of - themepark ? - ??

I like nice visuals as much as the next one, but I like gameplay, story etc. much better.

[ToddMcF2002]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting the graphics are bad - its the system requirements given the graphics.

[Dhruin]

But how can you judge that? How do you know what sort of requirements should be required? Do you have a baseline other than Oblivion, which as I said, has to load every interior cell even the size of a toilet cubicle?

[curious]

becuase innos has forsaken him and he must learn gain the favor of adanos.

kidding asided - the suggested requirements may be wrong/unfair, but running everything on maximum except textures on a computer over 3 years old makes me love the developers even more. as reference i can play gothic 3 with far more features than i could when gothic 1 and 2 came out, not that that is a basis for anything other than my happiness. gothic 1 took me over 5 minutes to load a save game at the time too, worth every minute too. realisticly they could put loading zones between the 3 zones, but would that improve performance all that much. if you remember from gothic 2 you also couldn't use transporter stones between the different 'worlds'. this would cause huge problems in gothic 3, having to transport to the pass between each, walk to the other side, and then transport to the city you want.

[ToddMcF2002]

I think 3 loading zones would improve things tremendously. In fact, if the rumours of an xBox360 port are true, they will have to rearchitect the game since it utilizes a shared 512 MB buffer.

And Dhruin, if you turn off the annoying "Loading Area..." message in Oblivion you'll barely notice the transitions - and its not as if Gothic 3 doesnt stutter anyway? What exactly have they gained over Gothic 2 and its 3 zones? I'm not trying to bash the game - I'm just saying that the games visuals don't justify the system requirements. Ironically though, those requirements have nothing to do with the visuals, but for reviews it doesnt matter. Sure its seamless, great. But it still stutters enough you might as well have Oblivion streaming methods and allow your game to run on more common hardware. The game would be far more stable and the reviews would be better.

[txa1265]

But how can you judge that? How do you know what sort of requirements should be required? Do you have a baseline other than Oblivion, which as I said, has to load every interior cell even the size of a toilet cubicle?

There is no objective standard - but I tend to make these comparisons for shooters. HL2 compared to FEAR compared to other stuff - there is a constant 'what I get for what price' comparison, even when there are many disparate factors. I think that the fact that Gothic 3 is a 'performance pusher' makes people ask the questions - sort of like NWN2.

[ToddMcF2002]

Another point - there are only two high end, open world games on the market for comparison. We pretty much have to wait for Crysis to change that.

[txa1265]

Another point - there are only two high end, open world games on the market for comparison. We pretty much have to wait for Crysis to change that.

Speaking of which, think about when Far Cry came out - the performance was piggy, the load times horrendous, but everone talked about the huge island area you got to see ... and it was all good ...

[ToddMcF2002]

Yup I remember that. Its one of the few games out there where they actually delivered big time on performance boosts. I hope the same happens here.

On a totally unrelated topic - the 8800GTX is flying on Crysis. Did you see those clips? Now that is performance!

[Dhruin]

And Dhruin, if you turn off the annoying "Loading Area..." message in Oblivion you'll barely notice the transitions - and its not as if Gothic 3 doesnt stutter anyway? What exactly have they gained over Gothic 2 and its 3 zones? I'm not trying to bash the game - I'm just saying that the games visuals don't justify the system requirements. Ironically though, those requirements have nothing to do with the visuals, but for reviews it doesnt matter. Sure its seamless, great. But it still stutters enough you might as well have Oblivion streaming methods and allow your game to run on more common hardware. The game would be far more stable and the reviews would be better.

You're only talking about one aspect, though, and I wasn't comparing to G2. I don't really care about Oblivion's "loading" message at all -- what I care about is the door transitions. As I said, having real windows, being able to see people working from outside the doorway and entering/leaving freely adds considerably to Gothic's atmosphere as opposed to Oblivions teleport-to-an-enclosed-cell method.

I would have been happy if they simply used the G2 engine and created the new content they wanted, but reviewers and mainstream gamers wouldn't. I accept they missed their goal but what I'm saying is that was a worthy goal to try for.

[Jabberwocky]

IF a large part of the performance issues is due to a seemless world, which seems likely, I would have preferred to have "strategically placed" loading zones. With the amount of caverns, geographical differences, etc... that Gothic 3 has, why not put loading zones in these areas? E.G: For a lengthy cavern romp like the quest in Reddock (early in game), why not break up the cavern into a different zone? As you're walking into the cavern it would not seem so jarring as say, Morrowind, which pauses mid-stride in the middle of nowhere to load more landscape. With all of these "strategically placed" loading zones in G3, the result would be better performance without sacraficing too much immersion.