Scars of War - Alternative to DRM

[Corwin]

Gareth in his always readable SoW Blog has not so much laid into the use of DRM's, but offered an alternative model to prevent game piracy. Check it out here (http://scarsofwargame.com/DevBlog/) and offer an opinion. Here's a small section for your reading pleasure:
This other direction that I’m talking about is to treat game development not as selling a product but as providing an entertainment service. You don’t just develop a game and drop it in peoples laps. You continually interact with and serve your customers, growing the value of the thing they have paid for. It’s this concept which makes people willing to keep paying for MMOs, if you ask me. A continuous stream of “new stuff” keeps pulling people back in and paying those fees every month.
Not only does it draw in customers, a service is a lot harder/time consuming for pirates to emulate. They’d have to sit there and doggedly crack/distribute each and every update you put out. While some may keep it up for a while, the nature of these hacker kids works in your favor. Most hacker groups are jostling for prestige. Their focus and attention is mainly on the big name titles, the new and shiny. The group who cracks Mass Effect 2 the week it comes out gets more kudos than the guys who crack the 45th small update to some game that came out a year ago, yes? In all likelihood I think that after a while they’d just not be paying attention anymore. Even if they were, the pirated copies on torrent sites would get outdated. Some might have a few of the updates, others might have a few more, but people looking for the latest version of your game would have a harder time sifting through the old stuff for it. And all the while there is the temptation to just go to your site, pay the price and get all the updates easily. The balance shifts and the draw of convenience now favors the developer instead of the pirates.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=11488)

[Lord_Craxton]

Not only does it draw in customers, a service is a lot harder/time consuming for pirates to emulate. They’d have to sit there and doggedly crack/distribute each and every update you put out. While some may keep it up for a while, the nature of these hacker kids works in your favor. Most hacker groups are jostling for prestige. Their focus and attention is mainly on the big name titles, the new and shiny. The group who cracks Mass Effect 2 the week it comes out gets more kudos than the guys who crack the 45th small update to some game that came out a year ago, yes? In all likelihood I think that after a while they’d just not be paying attention anymore. Even if they were, the pirated copies on torrent sites would get outdated. Some might have a few of the updates, others might have a few more, but people looking for the latest version of your game would have a harder time sifting through the old stuff for it. And all the while there is the temptation to just go to your site, pay the price and get all the updates easily. The balance shifts and the draw of convenience now favors the developer instead of the pirates.

False logic. In fact, this is the situation with anime fansubbing, and it shows the reality to be exactly opposite. Attention *is* the currency of the land in this circumstance, but breaking a work into a bunch of little chunks- such as a TV series- encourages rather than dissuades. If someone can have the free illegal copy on the net within 24 hours, that's a win. Quality doesn't matter, all that matters is the content in a usable state. (Some types of poor quality can even elevate you in the community's eyes, but that's another rant...) Next weeks' episode is another win the same way, and again the week after that. If you keep on like this you get a rep for being the best group doing the series, and then people just keep on coming. It's like the difference between a Super Bowl win and a blockbuster season- with one you get big props immediately, but the other gets you constant attention and praise for as long as you can keep it up. And when you can't keep it up, there's some other team waiting to pick up where you left off. Eventually, you do lose interest and move on to something else- but that only happens when the fans get tired of the series, by which point there's typically little money to be made anymore.

It's a non-starter.

[sege]

This sounds pretty like much like the approach Stardock Entertainment already use. They appear to be happy with the results so it must work for them. So it must be a good idea.

On the otherhand the current draconian methods of enforcing DRM (like forcing me to connect to the net to be granted one of five activations....and then not activating anyway due to server issues or whatever) are dumb imo.

To fix a problem you need to treat the root cause, not the apply a lowest common denominator quick fix to a symptom, especially when that quick fix also degrades your product for the majority of paying customers who have no intention of doing anything to infringe upon your 'digital rights' anyway. That is just dumb.

[hishadow]

Here's a tip: Online Distribution (and not in the sense of Steam as that's just a giant software dongle)

[kalniel]

Here's a tip: Online Distribution (and not in the sense of Steam as that's just a giant software dongle)

Which has done nothing for music piracy, so why the hope for software?

Lots of content and patches might sound like a good idea, but I don't recall it really working in practise - Starcraft and NWN are two games that have had a huge amount of patching and content added over time, yet as much as these things can be judged I don't think they've been significantly less pirated than other games. Better tools against piracy have been the requirement for a valid online key, and I think at least some sales have been gained by the online components of both the above games. That's what you get from a MMORPG as well, and I'd argue it's this that gets them valid sales, rather than the additional of content/patches.

[GhanBuriGhan]

I don't know if it helps to actually dissuade pirates - probably not. But building and investing in community relations and continuous updates/maintenance is certainly a good way to add and keep paying customers (especially for a niche indie title like this one) - which has the same net effect.

[kalniel]

I don't know if it helps to actually dissuade pirates - probably not. But building and investing in community relations and continuous updates/maintenance is certainly a good way to add and keep paying customers (especially for a niche indie title like this one) - which has the same net effect.

Yes, it's another feature that can make you want to buy a game in the first place, like gameplay, story, graphics, system requirements, polish etc.

[hishadow]

Which has done nothing for music piracy, so why the hope for software?.
At least it makes it easier to obtain a legal copy of the game and help make the game more available (on-demand). I recon it will have no contribution to increased piracy, because piracy distributers will have their own sources anyway.

[kalniel]

I recon it will have no contribution to increased piracy, because piracy distributers will have their own sources anyway.

The lesson from the music industry is that easy access to cheap DRM-free media appears to have co-incided with increased piracy. Verifying that, let alone a causal relationship, is nearly impossible though. I think it did increase digital sales, though at the expense of physical media.

[hishadow]

The lesson from the music industry is that easy access to cheap DRM-free media appears to have co-incided with increased piracy.
Who's the source of that claim?

[kalniel]

Who's the source of that claim?

Was reported in newspapers, tech sites and so on a few weeks ago. I assume it ultimately came from the music industry, hence point about inability to verify. Then again, no-one seems to be independantly showing otherwise.

[Lord_Craxton]

To fix a problem you need to treat the root cause, not the apply a lowest common denominator quick fix to a symptom,

Impossible. The root cause here is "Gamers think they deserve the latest and best games for nothing." Or, more broadly: "People are selfish and will cheerfully break the law to fulfill their desires without hesitation." It's probably not reasonable to expect a video game developer to protect his profits by changing human nature itself.

Really, the solution here is to come up with a DRM system that your customers accept. That's not difficult- Nintendo's "lock-out" chip back in the day was considered acceptable. CD Keys and schemes where you need the CD in the drive were acceptable and functional through much of the 90's- at least until CD burners became readily available. Steam is apparently considered acceptable, since it's account based- you're not paying for the data itself, you're paying for the right to access it. The important thing is that you log in on your account to play, so there's no rigamarole about having too many activations or such nonsense.

This isn't rocket science, people- it used to be a very simple matter to come up with an agreement that all sides were copacetic with. More and more it seems to me that the argument over DRM is not about what's fair and reasonable, but the fact that a small group of spoiled brats refuse to accept any price greater than free.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

You continually interact with and serve your customers, growing the value of the thing they have paid for.

I'm quite surprised someone needed that long to see it.

It's the ancient Shareware concept !

Back then, small or even tiny Shareware developers could and sometimes did "interact" with the customer in the form that bugs were "killed", and additional features were added - upon customer request !

The big, big, monolithic companies never could do this, so they abandoned this concept altogether - and made us forget it.

Apart from the Indies.

[Squeek]

Gareth must read my posts here or at other places. Not to sound like a smarty, but he doesn't quite get it.

He's right about continuous development but wrong about updates. He's right about the need for an on-going relationship between the developer and the customer but wrong about the basis for it.

RPGs are collaborative games but RPG software has always been designed like every other kind of software, in a single version. And that always made perfect sense – up until now. Today it's an online world, something pirates have taken good advantage of, but developers could too.

Piracy exploits how software is created and delivered in single well-marked packages. It’s one complete version. It may get updated or expanded, but it only really ever exists as a single version.

Instead, CRPGs could be created in varieties of versions. They could even be designed modularly, in pieces of versions. Instead of providing them in well-marked packages, those could be parceled out cleverly, using the Internet, and in ways that would not only circumvent piracy, that could intrigue and entertain customers as well.

CRPG developers could get into the business of developing RPG worlds instead of individual games, and they could charge customers for on-going access to it.

[Corwin]

Isn't that what MMO's do?

[Squeek]

Isn't that what MMO's do?This would be a single-player approach toward achieving a living game world. It would require subscription pricing, but that's about the end of the similarity. I compared the two while describing an iteration of this idea here (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102475&postcount=8).

I can imagine a lot of other ways to go about it, but all involve developing modularly and abandoning the concept of single-version.

[GhanBuriGhan]

While I have voiced similar ideas as squeeks here, I doubt that indie RPG developers are in a position to push that kind of client-server technology forward. I think that has to first happen through mainstream titles. However having add-ons being modular and each module checking the integrity of all others could be an interesting strategy to make a pirates lives more difficult.

[hishadow]

While I have voiced similar ideas as squeeks here, I doubt that indie RPG developers are in a position to push that kind of client-server technology forward. I think that has to first happen through mainstream titles. However having add-ons being modular and each module checking the integrity of all others could be an interesting strategy to make a pirates lives more difficult.
It's possible with open-source frameworks (with a non-viral license), but getting people to contribute (and maintain) free source-code isn't always as easy (especially when ppl make money off the non-viral license). Another obstacle is that developers usually want to do these things themselves.

[Benedict]

CRPG developers could get into the business of developing RPG worlds instead of individual games, and they could charge customers for on-going access to it.

Now that I would like to see. In many ways we're so close to a system like that with some products out there as well, I really don't think it would take much to move things over to a first stab at that kind of experience for a fairly minimal cost outlay just to test the demand.

As a first step, why on earth haven't any MMOs tried putting out single player versions of some of their worlds? The engines are there, the art assets are there, the game balancing is there, there's vast worlds already built. Set up some single player spin offs, take chunks of the game world and pull together the most enjoyed dungeons & plot lines, fill the towns & villages with some auto generated people, put in the option to hire mercenaries to tackle some things. THe tidying up needed to tailor it to a single player experience would be such a small proportion of the overall budget and would appeal to a whole new market.

I also think that something like NWN could do better. So much fan generated content but no coherent framework to pull it all together. I reckon they could have a comparatively cheap monthly subscription for a basic package that had a few main locations with shops & crafters & guild options & an overland map type thing. Then they could have an adventurer's guild type interface to pay on a case by case basis for premium or user generated modules with some kind of scaling system or filter to make sure it's set at appropriate difficulty for the character. The fees for each module could cover a little bit of central team tidying up to ensure a basic quality level along with some profit, contributers of content could earn free access to everything and some share of the profits. There seems to be so much good content out there but all in stand alone chunks, the creation of some kind of consistent framework and ability to build a character and take them through a series of adventures would be wonderful.

[Naked Ninja]

Gareth must read my posts here or at other places. Not to sound like a smarty, but he doesn't quite get it.

Think so? Mmmmm....

Piracy exploits how software is created and delivered in single well-marked packages. It’s one complete version. It may get updated or expanded, but it only really ever exists as a single version.

It's got nothing to do with being a single version. It's got everything to do with the fact that all the game code is sitting and running on an end user's machine, which means it's only a matter of time before it's cracked. MMOs are resistant to this due to critical game logic sitting on server boxes, behind firewalls, preventing pirates from ripping it and distributing it. Hard to crack code you don't have access to. Got nothing to do with how many versions there are.

Instead of providing them in well-marked packages, those could be parceled out cleverly, using the Internet, and in ways that would not only circumvent piracy, that could intrigue and entertain customers as well.

That's not a plan, that's a vague idea with no implementation details, aka a pipedream. You'd need to make it easy for customers to find all the pieces or they'd get frustrated with the incomplete experience. If it's easy for customers to find, it's easy for the pirates to find too. This would not circumvent piracy at all, it might slow it down slightly at best because pirates have to crack all the pieces. And at the cost of making the development many, many times more complex (aka time consuming and expensive). Which means further costs that the game has to recoup from paying customers. And since it's not stopping piracy but it is increasing cost....

CRPG developers could get into the business of developing RPG worlds instead of individual games, and they could charge customers for on-going access to it.

Easier said than done. Modern MMOs are an attempt at this concept and run into the difficulties that such things face.

For example, it sounds great to say "build a world", sounds like limitless adventure, yes? No. The problem is people consume content at speeds that are orders of magnitude faster than developers can produce it. Takes years to make an RPG that people consume in days, weeks. Even if you have all the art and tools and just need to layout the adventure like in NWN, you're looking at weeks and months work for a few hours, days at most. People mod Elder scrolls games, yes, but mostly it just twists the mechanics a bit, adds a quest here and there. 90% of the content is what the pro devs developed over years.

MMOs get around this problem by using grinding mechanics, massive time sinks with an addictive nature to keep people playing for long periods of time. If you build a game with the style of content of a BG2 instead of a slower descendant of Diablos monster whacking hamster wheel, you will run out of content in a handful of weeks or months. People were complaining about the end game in AoC lacking in content a few weeks after it hit stores.

And no, user content will not replace this. Even with systems like NWN or TES, you get a handful of quality and a whole lot of cruft. And nowhere near the critical mass needed to keep large numbers of people satisfied and actually paying fees.

It won't end up being an unlimited version of BG2 etc, it will end up being a sandbox playground ala Second Life.

CRPG developers could get into the business of developing RPG worlds instead of individual games, and they could charge customers for on-going access to it.

You will only be able to charge for access as long as there is interesting content to experience. Which means that users will burn through it then move on. But you still have server costs, staff costs, etc. And all those extra costs to recoup...

Where you've gone wrong Squeek is that you think devs are just unimaginative and thus haven't seen what is so obvious to yourself. It's not that. We also have these flights of fancy, often. We're just more aware of the full ramifications and difficulties of the thing.

So coming back to this :

Gareth must read my posts here or at other places. Not to sound like a smarty, but he doesn't quite get it.

Don't I? Perhaps I get "it" better than you do Squeek, not to sound like a smarty. Did it occur to you that it would take millions of dollars to build the infrastructure and develop the tech you talk about? I am a single guy with a shoe string budget, not a multi-million dollar development house. It would be a massive undertaking for Bioware, never mind me.

[Benedict]

MMOs get around this problem by using grinding mechanics, massive time sinks with an addictive nature to keep people playing for long periods of time.

And no, user content will not replace this. Even with systems like NWN or TES, you get a handful of quality and a whole lot of cruft. And nowhere near the critical mass needed to keep large numbers of people satisfied and actually paying fees.


In spite of that I think MMOs have a vast reservoir of worthwhile content that they can draw upon to make an enjoyable single player game. They'd have to tidy it up a lot and chuck out the grinding elements but they could condense it down well to make a big game that would last for a while. Of all the gaps in the market that seems the most glaring, if you've built everything already and racked up the major costs why not take a comparatively small development cost for tidying up & packaging and mop up money from the pool of people who prefer single player to MMO.

As for NWN, I think the user generated content has a much higher quality threshold and a much lower quantity because of the way in which it's currently packaged. At the moment it revolves around standalone modules, big individual chunks that need to hang together, that need to be good enough to remain interesting throughout a longish play time, that need people willing to invest enough of their time to build a full, several hour story.

If the hub of the game world is well designed there'd be scope for an entirely different kind of user generated content to show up. People could script just a single quest, a random encounter on the overland map, a couple of homes or shops or tavern characters or just a single relatively uncomplicated quest, whatever took their fancy if there was a good way of slotting it into a gameworld and knowing that people would end up coming across it. It would take much less game design skill and time, they'd be short lived enough that if they're a bit rubbish it wouldn't be a major drag on the end user. It would mean that people could get involved on a minor level and just play around rather than needing to raise themselves to a game designer type level to contribute anything that'll actually get played.

[kalniel]

Aren't you just describing a persistant world though? They're full of contributions from people who just write minor quests and so on.

A lot of more advanced builder time went into creating simple universal scripts and systems so that people could create such things without any technical knowledge.

[Benedict]

Aren't you just describing a persistant world though? They're full of contributions from people who just write minor quests and so on.

A lot of more advanced builder time went into creating simple universal scripts and systems so that people could create such things without any technical knowledge.

I've not come across a single player persistant world, or any kind of user generated content that was fully embedded in a game experience rather than serving as add-ons or stand alone content.

Have I missed anything?

[kalniel]

I've not come across a single player persistant world, or any kind of user generated content that was fully embedded in a game experience rather than serving as add-ons or stand alone content.

Have I missed anything?

I don't think I understand your language, sorry. What do you mean by 'fully embedded in a game experience'?

[Benedict]

I don't think I understand your language, sorry. What do you mean by 'fully embedded in a game experience'?

I think I tried to outline one vision of it earlier. Rather than the current NWN system where you load up one module and play that, and then stop and load up another module they could all be embedded into a game world. So you could have a random encounter one person wrote on the way to a dungeon someone else wrote, all within the same world rather than in distinct chunks.

[kalniel]

I think I tried to outline one vision of it earlier. Rather than the current NWN system where you load up one module and play that, and then stop and load up another module they could all be embedded into a game world. So you could have a random encounter one person wrote on the way to a dungeon someone else wrote, all within the same world rather than in distinct chunks.

But that is the case with a persistant world. You don't load up another module, it's all one module with contributions from different people.

[Squeek]

Got nothing to do with how many versions there are.Of course not now, because everything’s made in a single version. But CRPG has already become a sort of exception. If you're right then explain this to me: How would you make a crack that would allow you to run Morrowind fully loaded with every mod for it ever written? You couldn’t, because that wouldn't be possible.

What you're claiming won't work has already been done, but it's been done by fans instead of developers. Each modification alters the version (hence the term "mod".) All I'm suggesting, really, is to shift that effort back over to developers.

The "world" I'm imagining is a gaming experience involving a dynamic game world, developer collaboration via the Internet (not to be confused with development-on-demand) maybe using a Game Master persona, and subscription pricing.

I'm not talking about a single-player MMO experience where a player logs on to server-side software (that's fun to think about too, but just not my idea). I'm imagining the player logging onto a server from time to time, but only for collaboration and content. Not merely additional content -- alternative content.

You're stuck thinking in terms of single version, Gareth. You're only imagining static game worlds that people can "consume in days, weeks." Throw that concept out, and the door opens to all kinds of clever ways of hosting role-playing games on individual player platforms.

The way I imagine it, once a player completed the kind of game I'm talking about, he could go through it again playing a completely different type of character and have a completely different kind of experience. Or he could switch to a different Game Master (a server using alternative algebraic logic).

Coming back around to piracy, any single version a pirate might copy would be no big deal. So what if they play it? It would be static. The difference between it and the dynamic experience available to genuine customers would be like night and day. Pirated copies would function as little more than demos.

Finally, coming around again to modders, it might even be possible to design modular game worlds (one world / different versions) where amateur modders could receive payment for their efforts. I’m imagining them getting spiffed every time their modifications get downloaded. That way folks who made the popular mods could cash in on them.

[Squeek]

That's not a plan, that's a vague idea with no implementation details, aka a pipedream.It's the kind of suggestion you might find on a Web forum then? Or is there some rule that says you're not supposed to suggest a new idea without putting together an actual plan for it?

In addition to the thread I already referenced, I've discussed this idea many times over the past couple years. Like many other things high-tech, this idea isn't easy to describe, but here are a few other threads where I've done my best:

Here (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1060931240#post1060931240) , here (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1060925451#post1060925451) , here (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?p=105062#post105062) , and here (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?p=97025#post97025).

This forum only grants access to the past 500 (unless I'm missing something), but there was more.

[Naked Ninja]

People could script just a single quest, a random encounter on the overland map, a couple of homes or shops or tavern characters or just a single relatively uncomplicated quest, whatever took their fancy if there was a good way of slotting it into a gameworld and knowing that people would end up coming across it.

This system you allude to is a multi-million dollar project. NWN took 5 years for Bioware to develop, bear in mind. And you want something more complex.

It would mean that people could get involved on a minor level and just play around rather than needing to raise themselves to a game designer type level to contribute anything that'll actually get played.

If all you're looking for is a sandbox world I suppose you might find this satisfactory. I'm looking for strong story-based RPGs. Doing content creation that way would be the equivalent of taking a good novel and having the fan community alter and change it at will, expecting the novel to remain of a similar standard. Unlikely. Imagine taking all the NWN modules, the good and the bad, and combining them into one giant...mess.

So you could have a random encounter one person wrote on the way to a dungeon someone else wrote, all within the same world rather than in distinct chunks.

I REALLY don't think you are aware of the enormous technical complexity of such a system. TES mods already have problems with stepping on each other's toes, and that is offline. There is a reason things like Second Life tend to have instanced content.


@ Squeek :

How would you make a crack that would allow you to run Morrowind fully loaded with every mod for it ever written? You couldn’t, because that wouldn't be possible.

You don't need to make a crack for Morrowind that allows you to load every module. You just need to crack Morrowind. Then you can play any module you feel like.

How would it work with your example? Simple, I already explained this, unless your game logic sits on a server it is trivial to crack.

Step 1 : Some pirate with a legit account downloads all available modules at the time.
Step 2 : Crack game client.
Step 3 : Load modules into cracked client.
Step 4 : Play.
Step 5 : Periodically download more updates, distribute. Client is cracked so it runs them without complaint.

The only way to prevent that is if step 4 requires a permanent online connection in order to process game logic. Anything else is crackable in a fairly trivial amount of time. Your user modules are simply data Squeek, if they get downloaded in their entirety to the player's machine then they are easily cracked, shared and played offline by pirates.

Each modification alters the version

The mod version makes no difference. The security for the game resides in a specific module, a software call. Remove it and that cracked software can play mods to the pirates hearts content. You do know pirated copies of Morrowind could play mods right?

The "world" I'm imagining is a gaming experience involving a dynamic game world, developer collaboration via the Internet (not to be confused with development-on-demand) maybe using a Game Master persona, and subscription pricing.

I know what you are imagining, you aren't the first to imagine it.

I'm not talking about a single-player MMO experience where a player logs on to client-side software (that's fun to think about too, but just not my idea). I'm imagining the player logging onto a server from time to time, but only for collaboration and content. Not merely additional content -- alternative content.

Technically speaking, at the core you're describing a DRM restricted file management system. Player content uploaded to an official server, players connect to receive said files, perhaps interact with GMs to decide on what files they'd like. Problem is that the files, once downloaded to a players machine, can be easily distributed since the software doesn't need a net connection to play, simply to fetch files. If it's a once off connection it's little more than DRM like steam with it's updates, and fairly easily circumvented.

You're stuck thinking in terms of single version, Gareth. You're only imagining static game worlds that people can "consume in days, weeks." Throw that concept out, and the door opens to all kinds of clever ways of hosting role-playing games on individual player platforms.

No, I'm really not. This isn't a hard concept you're proposing Squeek, it's simply one that I don't think you fully understand the difficulties and ramifications of. And no, I'm not imagining static worlds. But I know this for fact, no matter how quickly your team of GMs can produce "alternate" content, the players will consume it at a faster rate. It's simple, content takes longer to make than to play.

The way I imagine it, once a player completed the kind of game I'm talking about, he could go through it again playing a completely different type of character and have a completely different kind of experience.

Except your calculations are off. To create "a completely different" type of experience means twice the content. But in each case the player finishes that content in a fraction of the time it takes you to create it. Which means that once players finish the content available, they have to wait for a while before new stuff comes out, then he'd finish it quickly, then he'd wait, then finish, etc etc....you reach a point where the player has "caught up" with the available content and is sitting around bored waiting for more to come. I know you are imagining that player added content would make for "unlimited adventure!!!" (this is the same thing people imagined when they heard about NWN) but it won't, any more than NWN modules have. Why? Because even Bioware's vast community can't produce enough quality content quickly enough.

Coming back around to piracy, any single version a pirate might copy would be no big deal. So what if they play it? It would be static. The difference between it and the dynamic experience available to genuine customers would be like night and day. Pirated copies would function as little more than demos.

No it wouldn't. See above. I don't think you understand how this works, technically. Not trying to insult, I just think you need to consider that you might not understand the implementation details before you accuse people of just being too closed-minded.

Finally, coming around again to modders, it might even be possible to design modular game worlds (one world / different versions) where amateur modders could receive payment for their efforts. I’m imagining them getting spiffed every time their modifications get downloaded. That way folks who made the popular mods could cash in on them.

Nothing wrong with that. But even with paid rewards, the amount of quality content that comes out doesn't match player demand. I do believe some of the published NWN premium modules come from talented community members. Just not enough of them to provide a steady flow.

[Squeek]

If you're going to assert that you would be able to evaluate every modification without having access to any information about them or even knowing about their individual existances...if you're going to insist that every Morrowind mod is compatible with every other and could all be run together at once....

What can I say? Like some other folks, I've learned about and discussed new technical concepts at the system-, board-, chip- and sub-chip levels; game-changing approaches to worldwide, nationwide, metropolitan, campus, local, and even personal networks. We're all in the same boat, trying to understand and be understood.

If you want to refuse to be available to understand or simply aren't capable of keeping up, then ok.

[hishadow]

I don't play Spore, but it seems to be somewhat similar.

[Squeek]

I don't see much information about Spore, but it does sound somewhat similar in that the player's decisions directly affect the state of the game's world. And what I'm describing is pure cause & effect.

In the real world cause & effect makes sense only up to a point. That's why philosophies that believe in strict cause & effect always assert things like multiple lifetimes, multiple worlds or the world being some sort of grand illusion. It becomes problematic in single-version games that same way.

Games and game worlds use asserted realities, giving them the potential to implement pure cause & effect in a myriad of ways that could be quite clever and fun. Until recently, our own real-world realities stood in the way of that.

Those realities have changed. Today we're all connected via the Internet. And the single-most successful CRPG uses subscription pricing. Opportunity exists that didn't exist before.

You know those science-fiction stories where people get sent back in time? What's always their top concern? They're always afraid of changing things, aren't they? Because even a slight change might make a great impact on the world.

My idea would enable CRPG worlds to react like that. That unpredictability wouldn't need to prevent piracy, because it would work around it. It would use the Internet as a tool for making piracy moot.

[GhanBuriGhan]

If you're going to assert that you would be able to evaluate every modification without having access to any information about them or even knowing about their individual existances...if you're going to insist that every Morrowind mod is compatible with every other and could all be run together at once....

What can I say? Like some other folks, I've learned about and discussed new technical concepts at the system-, board-, chip- and sub-chip levels; game-changing approaches to worldwide, nationwide, metropolitan, campus, local, and even personal networks. We're all in the same boat, trying to understand and be understood.

If you want to refuse to be available to understand or simply aren't capable of keeping up, then ok.

The post says it was edited for clarity. It didn't work. This makes no sense at all, but does leave the impression of being offensive. Gareth/NN made good points above - ball is in your court, I think.

NN - I am more interested on the SP-MMORPG angle: I can see the reservations regarding user created or constantly updated content, but none of that really speaks against server side technology per se. You argue that users use up content too fast, but that is only a problem if you are looking at a subscription model. MMO work on a subscription basis - but I see no reason why SP server side RPG's should work that way, they could be single price, playtime based, or single price plus modular content based. I am honestly confused why we haven't seen such a model yet - do you have an opinion on that? There seem to be a lot of pros:
- server-side content and calculation allow effective pirating control
- sever technology exixsts (MMORPG)
- attractive options to have additional modular content, easily sold and advertised "in game"
- option for advertising (ingame / during startup / etc.) (not that I like the idea!)
- easy to monitor player behavior, log bugs, improve content.
- easier to patch/ update (?)
- Possibility to have dynamic worlds or dynamic elements for additional attractiveness

[Squeek]

The post says it was edited for clarity. It didn't work. This makes no sense at all, but does leave the impression of being offensive. Gareth/NN made good points above - ball is in your court, I think.OK, I'll make myself more clear. My point about Morrowind mods is that they can't all be loaded at the same time since some aren't compatible with each other. On the one hand you're simply adding more content, and that works fine. On the other you're making changes that aren't compatible.

It's an example of alternative versions. But while Morrowind's mods are clearly titled and come with instructions, these would be installed by the game without the player's full awareness.

If it helps, instead of version, think games, projects, easter eggs...but mods are the perfect analogy. My posts, the ones I linked, repeat that concept and should make it clearer.

[Corwin]

The post says it was edited for clarity. It didn't work. This makes no sense at all, but does leave the impression of being offensive. Gareth/NN made good points above - ball is in your court, I think.

NN - I am more interested on the SP-MMORPG angle: I can see the reservations regarding user created or constantly updated content, but none of that really speaks against server side technology per se. You argue that users use up content too fast, but that is only a problem if you are looking at a subscription model. MMO work on a subscription basis - but I see no reason why SP server side RPG's should work that way, they could be single price, playtime based, or single price plus modular content based. I am honestly confused why we haven't seen such a model yet - do you have an opinion on that? There seem to be a lot of pros:
- server-side content and calculation allow effective pirating control
- sever technology exixsts (MMORPG)
- attractive options to have additional modular content, easily sold and advertised "in game"
- option for advertising (ingame / during startup / etc.) (not that I like the idea!)
- easy to monitor player behavior, log bugs, improve content.
- easier to patch/ update (?)
- Possibility to have dynamic worlds or dynamic elements for additional attractiveness

Minions of Mirth did this very well. Check it out.

[Squeek]

I gave your comments more thought, GhanBuriGhan, and decided to respond to some of the points I ignored earler:

You will only be able to charge for access as long as there is interesting content to experience.Agreed.

The problem is people consume content at speeds that are orders of magnitude faster than developers can produce it.Some content, yes. Not content that’s hidden or difficult to reach. In a single-version game, one time through is often all there is to it. In a game like the one I’m describing, you would never experience anything even close to everything the game had to offer any single time through. But you could choose a different character and try again. Starting over would make sense.

Except your calculations are off. To create "a completely different" type of experience means twice the content..Actually, I'm imagining much more than twice the content. And that's just for starters. Game development would be on-going, since that's what game developers do between the hours of 9:00 and 5:00, and would continue until the entire project ends.

Technically speaking, at the core you're describing a DRM restricted file management system. Player content uploaded to an official server, players connect to receive said files, perhaps interact with GMs to decide on what files they'd like.No, I'm describing game updates, created by the developer. They would install like patches. The player wouldn't specifically decide which files they'd like any more than they decide which specific files to install during installation. As I've suggested many times here, that should happen periodically throughout the game, making it and its world work dynamically.

People mod Elder scrolls games, yes, but mostly it just twists the mechanics a bit, adds a quest here and there. 90% of the content is what the pro devs developed over years.These would have better modding tools and submit their work to the developer. Their work would add to the overall effort.

Nothing wrong with that (player-made mods). But even with paid rewards, the amount of quality content that comes out doesn't match player demand. I do believe some of the published NWN premium modules come from talented community members. Just not enough of them to provide a steady flow.As I say, the original and on-going work would be done by the game’s developers. Modders could contribute and even make a little money. Servers would simply need to flag their content, measure it, and then keep track whenever it's downloaded.

The only way to prevent that is if step 4 requires a permanent online connection in order to process game logic. Anything else is crackable in a fairly trivial amount of time.Server access of every kind can be blocked, not just ones hosting client-side game software. These would review information gathered by the game, discuss the player's decisions via a persona, and maybe ask him to answer a few questions, etc. Then the sum of those decisions (choices) would be matched with the appropriate software modules (consequence). That would be downloaded and installed like a game patch.

Essentially, I’m suggesting that a dynamic game with a dynamic game world would circumvent piracy by making any single version moot. Furthermore, I’m pointing out that content delivered and installed this way would be simply too much work for anyone to ever figure out and copy. It’s a way of making better CRPGs and a way of using the Internet to make piracy moot.

[Benedict]

But that is the case with a persistant world. You don't load up another module, it's all one module with contributions from different people.

What single player persistant worlds are there then? I've not come across any AFAIK.

[hishadow]

What single player persistant worlds are there then? I've not come across any AFAIK.
All your savegames... :p

[Benedict]

This system you allude to is a multi-million dollar project. NWN took 5 years for Bioware to develop, bear in mind. And you want something more complex.


Dude, I wasn't remotely expecting anything like that to come out of an indie arrangement. I was thinking in terms of Obsidian going that way with NWN3 or WOW making a single player spinoff, both of which would require work but not exactly starting from scratch. I think NWN2 took a big step that way with the overland map thing, it'd be easy to add a load of overland encounters to that. And they could easily have a series of districts in the various cities etc

I love what you're planning on doing with Scars of War and what I'd like to see from other providers is something entirely separate, i think the indie studios are well suited for strong story driven stuff but I think that the larger studios are missing possible tricks for new game concepts that they're not hugely far from.


If all you're looking for is a sandbox world I suppose you might find this satisfactory. I'm looking for strong story-based RPGs. Doing content creation that way would be the equivalent of taking a good novel and having the fan community alter and change it at will, expecting the novel to remain of a similar standard. Unlikely. Imagine taking all the NWN modules, the good and the bad, and combining them into one giant...mess.


I would imagine that the end result would be generally sandboxy but with the volume of content coming from individually crafted community contributions rather than randomised generation. In general I really quite like the idea of sandboxy games, put together some adventurers, head out, see a few different things. In practice they always end up being a massive disappointment, a few good hours of playtime before I start to recognise recurring faces, conversations, the random generation mechanics that make the endless stream of meaningless dungeons, pretty soon it all becomes a grind and I no longer expect anything different to happen and it gets dull.

And the community contributions would likely have a lot of stuff that was pretty weak or cliched or uninspiring but then there'd be something completely unexpected. Some of it would actually be good, or quirky, or unexpected. Even for the same average quality level I'd rather have an unpredictable mix of really good stuff and really bad stuff than a homogenised level of generally bland but polished and balanced randomly generated stuff. And for any of the longer modules or quests or locations or anything added in one could easily include a quality rating system where users rank the content and you can decide before downloading it and playing it.


I REALLY don't think you are aware of the enormous technical complexity of such a system. TES mods already have problems with stepping on each other's toes, and that is offline. There is a reason things like Second Life tend to have instanced content.


Don't the mods tend to all modify the whole world at the same time? SO plenty of scope for conflicts.

I'm sure there's technical implementation issues, but having played Storm of Zehir I get the impression that there's a definite structure there that the programmers have used themselves to slot all their content together. An overland map system with individual points on the map that lead to other towns, villages, dungeons etc. A random encounter system that mostly just generated random monsters at particular levels but also had about a dozen special encounters that cropped up randomly on the map at particular level.

Anything that allowed complete mods of everything would be a nightmare I agree. I was thinking of something that had a consistently structured basic gameworld, underlying rules, sets of overland map arrangements etc that users couldn't make global modifications and risk throwing everything out. But they can submit stuff to be added to the overland map and when you get there it takes you to a location they've built, just as with the main game. They can submit random encounters with a set of criteria for who should get it and where and it can be added to the pool of scenarios in the random encounter generator. They can submit people & scripts to be added to locations for generating quests etc.

I don't know, I'm no industry expert. I just really got the impression that the development team for that had a particular structure that they worked in and each could work independently making their little chunks of content to hang on the overall structure. Once they'd generated the art assets & engine & overland map system etc that would seem like the most logical way to work.


But I know this for fact, no matter how quickly your team of GMs can produce "alternate" content, the players will consume it at a faster rate. It's simple, content takes longer to make than to play.


Now that I fully agree with. I'd not really thought of it as something that you can play and play and play and it'll never end because there'll be so much new content, I was thinking of it as something that one went back to for a while every now and then, whether for variety or to fill a gap between games or to try out a different character build etc.

[Squeek]

My dream CRPG would be set in a world full of intrigue and uncertainty where unexpected mystery would creep in every dark place, lore would linger in forgotten ruins, and legacy would embody distinct artifacts that could only be found by reckless opportunists willing to try to cheat death.

The challenge would be to properly perceive and evaluate the endless possibilities of a complex world, one where I had an unclear but certain destiny. Adventure would lie waiting but not be easily found. And the quest to find it would be chock-full of peril.

Each step of my progress through it would face resistance but would be accompanied by a satisfying sense of significance, a feeling that the part I was playing in the vast muddled drama unfolding around me was worthwhile.

Role-playing games shouldn't be like a walk in the park, a day at Disneyland or an afternoon at the movies. Every detail of a fantastic adventure should be hard to find and precious. Otherwise the whole thing becomes cheap.

The RPG I love best has bits of misunderstood and partly unfound content. That's why I love it like I do. The RPG I would make would have a constant flow of that kind of hard-to-find good stuff packed inside, waiting to be discovered.

[blatantninja]

Which has done nothing for music piracy, so why the hope for software?

Quite the contrary. They are selling more and more music online each year. You can't compare it to pre-file sharing sales levels as that age is done and gone.

I haven't bought a CD in close to 10 years. Downloads or not (legal or not), I wouldn't be. However, with Amazon's DRM free mp3 downloads (refuse to do business with iTunes due to their DRM), I've probably spent close to $1000 since the program launched.

The lesson from the music industry is that easy access to cheap DRM-free media appears to have co-incided with increased piracy.

Perhaps, but piracy isn't really the issue. The issue is total sales, and cheap DRM-free media has increased online sales. Piracy will never be stopped, only perhaps slowed down, but piracy is independent of the number of users will to pay for a title.

[Squeek]

I rolled my eyes at this and just shrugged it off yesterday, and that was a mistake. Here's a response:

You don't need to make a crack for Morrowind that allows you to load every module. You just need to crack Morrowind. Then you can play any module you feel like.Nope. They're not all compatible, and that was my point, the one I hoped would help you understand. You would need to decide which Morrowind mods were compatible with which, not to mention which ones would make sense with each other. And those mods all come with instructions.

The updates I'm suggesting wouldn't be labeled or come with readme files. Pirates would have to work hard to even identify them, let alone evaluate them all. Even then the game they would get would only fit a single iteration, a response comforming to the sum of one player's choices.

How would it work with your example? Simple, I already explained this, unless your game logic sits on a server it is trivial to crack. Explaining how you understand the current paradigm is fine but doesn't take the conversation anywhere. Besides, your point about "game logic sitting on a server" is a reference to server-side client-server software, and that has nothing at all to do with my suggestion.

As WoW has made abundantly clear, subscription pricing affords a lot of development work. All MMOs can do is add more and more due to the restrictions of their software's architecture, but single-player applications don't have that restriction. One could be designed smartly and redundantly in clever ways, ways that could make a CRPG intriguing.

[kalniel]

Perhaps, but piracy isn't really the issue. The issue is total sales, and cheap DRM-free media has increased online sales.At the expense of CD sales, hence total sales are down.

[blatantninja]

At the expense of CD sales, hence total sales are down.

CD sales are irrelevant. Those sales aren't coming back, DRM or not.

[Naked Ninja]

Hi, sorry for the delayed response, work has been madness.

Alright, I can see why you're getting confused Squeek, let me take a moment to explain. I was at work fixing software bugs till 2am last night, so if I make spelling/grammar mistakes, please forgive me.

It comes down to the difference between data files, and the software that runs data files. A data file is a collection of data in some format which tells the software how to present something to the user.

Examples of this :

- Winamp (software media player) : .mp3 file (data file)
- Notepad (software media player) : .txt file (data file)
- Web browser (software media displayer/player) : .html file (data file)
- Windows media player (software media player) : .wma file (data file)

Easy to understand, right? The software is the "record player" and the data file is the "record". Changing the record doesn't change the software. No matter how many mp3s you load into Winamp, no matter what order they are and no matter what they are, the software that is running those mp3s is the same. Not only that, if you crack the software that runs that file, you crack it. Doesn't matter how many data files you load afterward, it's cracked.

What you don't understand is that this is the same relationship as mod files.

- TES (software media player) : .esm file (data file)

No matter how many esm files you loaded into TES, the software that runs them was the same version. If Morrowind was cracked, Morrowind was cracked. No matter how many .esm files you loaded into it, no matter the order. The "record player" has had it's wires fiddled with, regardless of how many "records" you try load into it.

The misconception you're experiencing it that you think data conflicts in loaded .esm files are actual conflicts in software, as in the software has changed and that is why things are going funny. Not so. The software is the same.

Coming back to the record player metaphor, imagine a record player that could play a number of CDs simultaneously. You load one and start it playing, cool. Now you load and play another. If the tunes are "compatible", it sounds harmonious. But if they aren't then it "clashes", the sound/data presented to the listener is in conflict. But it's not the record player that has changed or is in conflict, it's the data being presented to the player. If someone messes with the wiring in the "record player", it doesn't matter whether "the record" playback is conflicting or not. The wires remain messed with.

Do you understand? .esm files are essentially just data files telling TES how to lay out the world and respond to user interaction. TES cunning composites the data by layering each on top of the other to create a single whole. But this method isn't perfect. Conflicts arise in cases like the following :

Mod file A indicates that NPC Bob should wear a red hat. It also adds a Quest where NPC Sally says "Find Bob, he is wearing a red hat".

Mod File B indicates that NPC Bob should wear a yellow hat. It doesn't modify Sally however.

End result : Sally tells you to go look for Bob in his red hat, but Bob isn't wearing a red had, he is wearing a yellow hat. Confusion ensues!

This is why ordering makes a difference in .esm files, if you'd done them in reverse order it would have been fine, the last change to the hat colour would have been the one to take effect, and Bobs hat would have been red.

Do you understand, Squeek? Mod files aren't software patches, they don't work in the same way. They don't stop piracy at all.

However, I feel you might want to argue "well then, why not make them work like patches then huh?". Patches modify software directly and conflicts in patches simply result in the game crashing/breaking horribly. Also, patches need to be applied in the right order. So 1.1 follows 1.2, etc. If you get a 1.8 patch that doesn't require the 1.7 patch to be installed first, it's because the 1.8 patch contains all the changes from the previous patches too. Which means the latest file contains all the changes the pirates need to work it out.

This is why, coming back to Morrowind, people didn't need to crack each mod. They simply needed to crack each expansion, because it was the expansions that actually changed the underlying software. Mods designed for Tribunal often couldn't work on plain vanilla MW, they required changes introduced in Tribunal to run properly. But Tribunal installations could read vanilla MW mods. Because the later version of the software player could read all older data file versions, but not vice versa.

Squeek, I know you really like your idea and it's easier to believe that I simply don't "get it" than that there may be fundamental flaws in your technical understanding, but please take a moment to read what I'm saying here.

Besides, your point about "game logic sitting on a server" is a reference to server-side client-server software, and that has nothing at all to do with my suggestion.

I was trying to explain to you how this type of architecture is the only one that has a chance of directly stopping piracy. Please don't latch onto it and try to imply that I don't get your concept because I tried to explain this.

The updates I'm suggesting wouldn't be labeled or come with readme files.

Sigh, dude, you have a significantly flawed understanding of just what it is that pirates do. The way they crack software isn't dependent on it coming with labels or readme files. Once they understand how the format works it's completely trivial. And they figure out the format by analyzing the way the software runs when it does it's thang. Damn man, do you really think devs are getting their software pirated because they haven't tried such a simple strategy? It barely slows pirates down.

Even then the game they would get would only fit a single iteration, a response comforming to the sum of one player's choices.

No, they would watch how the game alters according to those choices and quickly figure out how the system works. This is how they figure out how to crack anti-piracy schemes, by analyzing differing code paths. It reveals to them the underlying architecture of the system and how to circumvent it.

My dream CRPG would be set in a world full of intrigue and uncertainty where unexpected mystery would creep in every dark place, lore would linger in forgotten ruins, and legacy would embody distinct artifacts that could only be found by reckless opportunists willing to try to cheat death.

The challenge would be to properly perceive and evaluate the endless possibilities of a complex world, one where I had an unclear but certain destiny. Adventure would lie waiting but not be easily found. And the quest to find it would be chock-full of peril.

Each step of my progress through it would face resistance but would be accompanied by a satisfying sense of significance, a feeling that the part I was playing in the vast muddled drama unfolding around me was worthwhile.

Sigh, we all have these dreams Squeek. But there is a difference between imagining them and implementing them.

The RPG I would make would have a constant flow of that kind of hard-to-find good stuff packed inside, waiting to be discovered.

No, it wouldn't have a "constant flow". You imagine it would, because you've never had to implement that. This is why I called it a pipedream, I don't want to be insulting to you but everyone, every gamer and every dev (who are also gamers) have this kind of dream. But please try to consider that the reason you haven't experienced it yet may not be that devs are just closed-minded, it may be because it isn't technically possible at this time.

[Squeek]

Ninja, I only cited Morrowind and modders as an example to help you understand my actual point. You're just doing what you always do and that's immediately seizing on something, jumping to the opposite side the supposed issue, and then defending your position. You've missed the point, as usual.

There's no discussing this with you. This conversation hasn't even stayed on topic and, frankly, is stupid. I'm done.

[Naked Ninja]

Ninja, I only cited Morrowind and modders as an example to help you understand my actual point. You're just doing what you always do and that's immediately seizing on something, jumping to the opposite side the supposed issue, and then defending your position. You've missed the point, as usual.

There's no discussing this with you. This conversation hasn't even stayed on topic and, frankly, is stupid. I'm done.

I used morrowind as a good explain of how layered, single-world modding works, because it was clear from your discussion on "mod versions preventing piracy" that you don't understand the complexities. An example to help you understand my points, as you say, an example familiar to a good number of RPG fans. Try keeping that in mind and reading it again, please.

As to what "I'm doing", I'm actually remaining fairly patient and trying to help you understand, despite the fact that you're trying very hard to believe I'm just not open to new ideas. At least have the decency not to tell me "there is no discussing this with you" when you started from a position of saying "You just don't get it Gareth" and proceeded to dismiss anything I said as closed-minded from then on. It's fairly hypocritical.

[skavenhorde]

Quite the contrary. They are selling more and more music online each year. You can't compare it to pre-file sharing sales levels as that age is done and gone. .

That's exactly what I thought when I read his post about how making music easier to download hasn't helped the music industry. Everytime the news talks about this it's about how making music easier to download and friendlier to their customers has helped save them and increased sales.

Lesson in all this: People want to do the right thing, but if someone has a better version available that is easier (keyword there "easier" not "free") to use and get then the people will go for the more convient one. Makes sense to me. Who wants a version that is harder to use if someone else is making has exactly the same thing but less hassle.

[skavenhorde]

NN, I just remembered an article about how Armageddon Empires was successful. Vic Davis did something along the lines of what you're talking about with keeping the customer interested in the game.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2008/05/12/180-degrees-the-secret-of-armageddon-empires-indie-success-part-i.aspx

He has so far not just patched up his games, but added two additional packs for download that add a little something to the game. We're not talking huge overhauls here, but just liitle packages that keep the customer (me) intersted in playing it again.

Anyways I thought you might find it interesting since from what I've read you have a similiar approach and it has worked out well for AE.

EDIT: sorry about the double post, forgot to edit this time.

[Naked Ninja]

Thanks Skaven, yeah, I read that article, great stuff. I'm looking forward to his next title, the infernal politics one.

[Corwin]

Gareth, thanks for all your explanations. I think you expressed your points well. Heck, even I understood what you were trying to say!! :)

[Squeek]

...I'm actually remaining fairly patient and trying to help you understand, despite the fact that you're trying very hard to believe I'm just not open to new ideas.I've visited a lot of high-tech startups over the years and sat across from their managers, trying their best to explain their company's new approach to whatever technical problem they were solving. And I've been on the other end too, working to evangelize their new ideas. There's a place in the middle, a place where you're lost and you know it, still struggling to get a handle on what you don't yet understand.

We can all relate, I think. Anyone who’s ever been involved with technology, even if it's only having operated a PC, because that’s just how it goes at any level of high-tech involvement.

But that's not what's going on here, and it's obvious. At least it is to me. This isn't one of those conversations where on the one hand someone's trying hard to explain and on the other someone's trying hard to understand. You're staying focused on your understanding of the current paradigm and how it won't do what you think I'd like it to do.

Sorry, but I can't help but see that you just aren't talking about the same thing as me. For instance, how could someone experience all the content in multiple versions of a game by playing one version of it one time through? That doesn't make sense. That's stuck at square one.

Speaking as someone who’s been involved in product development for a long time, I can assure you that anything, and I mean anything, could be created in multiple versions. Of course it could. How could it not? Any individual version would be distinct from the others. That's why they're considered different versions and the reason I’m referring to them that way.

Modifying an existing version is where it gets tricky, and for anything other than software wouldn’t be worth considering. But software is merely code. Altering it is certainly feasible. Any suggestion otherwise would be ludicrous.

How that might work and whether or not it would be worthwhile is another story. I see a conversation there, and that’s why I’ve brought it up so many times over the past couple of years. But it's one we're not having at the moment, not the two of us.

They say in the land of the blind the one-eye rules. Pardon me for not being blind, not completely.

[Naked Ninja]

Thanks Corwin, glad I didn't waste my breathe. ;)


I've visited a lot of high-tech startups over the years and sat across from their managers, trying their best to explain their company's new approach to whatever technical problem they were solving.

I'm remaining patient, but if you compare me to management types again I shall become insulted. I am a programmer, not a business person in a suit. I'm an engineer, a scientist. Please comprehend the difference. You are not visiting with a board of businesspeople in suits trying to sell a concept, you are discussing software design with a highly trained, experienced software developer. And the only ground you have for dismissing my points is that you've visited some software dev houses and heard some speeches? Come on.

There's a place in the middle, a place where you're lost and you know it, still struggling to get a handle on what you don't yet understand.

This isn't what this is. This is a layman showing an engineer his cool design for a new rocket ship. And the engineer is patiently trying to explain how his design won't work like he thinks it will because of the physics of gravity and the physical structure of the craft etc. And the guy is responding by calling him closed-minded because he is saying his super neat-o idea for a rocketship will explode when it tries to take off. That is what this is. Please don't try to cover your lack of technical knowledge with grandiose statements.

We can all relate, I think. Anyone who’s ever been involved with technology, even if it's only having operated a PC, because that’s just how it goes at any level of high-tech involvement.

No, someone who has only ever operated a PC has an entirely different understanding of software development to a highly trained and experienced software engineer. Do you think we create software by accident? Like any other scientific discipline, it is through understanding of the principles at work.

But that's not what's going on here, and it's obvious. At least it is to me. This isn't one of those conversations where on the one hand someone's trying hard to explain and on the other someone's trying hard to understand.

Agreed, you aren't trying particularly hard to understand.

how could someone experience all the content in multiple versions of a game by playing one version of it one time through?

The discussion was about how multiple versions of a game won't stop pirates. And how it won't be "multiple versions" at all, it will be the same version with multiple data file mods loaded. Like winamp with various mp3s loaded into the playlist.

Speaking as someone who’s been involved in product development for a long time

Elaborate please as to the specifics of your role. What was your involvement, exactly?

I can assure you that anything, and I mean anything, could be created in multiple versions. Of course it could. How could it not?

Of course it can. You can make many different versions of your "record player". But that doesn't mean they don't all read the exact same type of record, even if there is different music data on each record. But loading up different records/mods isn't going to change that recorder's version on the fly. The type of system you envisage needs a strongly data driven design in order to work. You don't understand why because you don't understand how software works in general. I've elaborated at length but you don't seem to be listening, so....

Any individual version would be distinct from the others. That's why they're considered different versions and the reason I’m referring to them that way.

It's abundantly clear that you don't have any idea what you are talking about and just keep talking about "versions". Ok, try this. Open up a game on your hard drive. Do you see all those files? Executables, dlls, data files? Some of them are core code binaries, some security modules, some rendering libraries, etc etc. These are built in a certain way so that they know how to "talk" to each other. They have an overall design and structure. And each and every file in that folder is, in all likelihood, a different version from it's neighbor. That doesn't change what I'm saying. It's not about what the version of any particular file is. It's about which files are changing and how. You can't just change the overall structure of the base code every time (even re-write the base code), that's like re-writing the game, incredibly time consuming and expensive and driven by human effort, not an automated process. It's an incredible cost for what you're trying to achieve, far more than even the piracy is. It's like having a car with a cd player, and saying you should tear apart and rebuild the car every time you want to change a cd! I'm trying to come up with metaphors which help you understand, so please don't tell me "I'm stuck in an automotive paradigm" or some such, please.

Modifying an existing version is where it gets tricky, and for anything other than software wouldn’t be worth considering. But software is merely code. Altering it is certainly feasible. Any suggestion otherwise would be ludicrous.

See the above example. Yes, it's possible to rebuild the car in a completely original shape (while still ensuring it performs as before) every time you want to change a cd. I'm trying to explain why it's not a good or feasible idea and why the entire "automotive" industry hasn't adopted the plan which is so "obvious" to you.

How that might work and whether or not it would be worthwhile is another story. I see a conversation there, and that’s why I’ve brought it up so many times over the past couple of years. But it's one we're not having at the moment, not the two of us.

I see a man on a crusade, chasing an idea he has, unwilling to listen to anything which might pull him down to earth. I notice that you didn't start off asking how your system could be implemented or asking about the potential issues you'd face. You just climbed up on that podium, stated that I didn't "get it" and began to preach your vision. That's not a conversation, that's you only wanting to hear what you want to hear.

They say in the land of the blind the one-eye rules. Pardon me for not being blind, not completely.

Less poetry, more technical knowledge, please.

[Squeek]

I'm remaining patient, but if you compare me to management types again I shall become insulted. I am a programmer, not a business person in a suit. I'm an engineer, a scientist. Please comprehend the difference. You are not visiting with a board of businesspeople in suits trying to sell a concept, you are discussing software design with a highly trained, experienced software developer.I don't know what your experience has been with high-tech startups, but I've found that they all begin in a development phase where nearly all the employees and the entire management team are engineers and, when appropriate, scientists. You may want to stop and realize that they're folks who obtain startup funding, which is how they afford employees and consultants. I suppose I'm suggesting they have credibility.

As for making a case for myself, no thanks. I'm not even tempted to go there. You're entitled to your opinion, and that's OK with me.

I've spoken my mind, and this has gone far enough, clearly. I'm out. Peace.

[Naked Ninja]

(Note : I respond to Ghan below, if you want to skip the arguing and go straight to some productive discussion, feel free to skip the responses to Squeek ;) )


@ Squeek :

I don't know what your experience has been with high-tech startups, but I've found that they all begin in a development phase where nearly all the employees and the entire management team are engineers and, when appropriate, scientists. You may want to stop and realize that they're folks who obtain startup funding, which is how they afford employees and consultants. I suppose I'm suggesting they have credibility.

I worked for one for 2 and a half years. My boss, the manager and owner, was a PHD who'd studied the aurora for years before writing an entire software system by himself (so also a programmer), then starting his own company. The minute you become a manager your technical skills begin to decay and you mind becomes infested with business speak. :P

But right, returning to this discussion, you said this :

And I've been on the other end too, working to evangelize their new ideas.

So that makes you which, an engineer or a scientist? Or are you just throwing this out there to gain credibility by association? I'll admit it a rather cunning piece of verbal gymnastics, to say "startups are often run by technical, knowledgeable people who evangelize their ideas, and you Sqeek have yourself evangelized ideas for tech startups, so that makes your opinion about the fact that I'm lost in this technical discussion knowledgeable and valid"...but I'm not buying what you're selling.

Speak plainly Squeek, tell me what it is you do and how much experience you have in this field so that we can speak frankly, without verbal smokescreens. I'm guessing not so much, or there wouldn't be the need to dance around so much. But I welcome you to prove me wrong mate.


@ Ghan :

NN - I am more interested on the SP-MMORPG angle: I can see the reservations regarding user created or constantly updated content, but none of that really speaks against server side technology per se. You argue that users use up content too fast, but that is only a problem if you are looking at a subscription model. MMO work on a subscription basis - but I see no reason why SP server side RPG's should work that way, they could be single price, playtime based, or single price plus modular content based. I am honestly confused why we haven't seen such a model yet - do you have an opinion on that? There seem to be a lot of pros:
- server-side content and calculation allow effective pirating control
- sever technology exixsts (MMORPG)
- attractive options to have additional modular content, easily sold and advertised "in game"
- option for advertising (ingame / during startup / etc.) (not that I like the idea!)
- easy to monitor player behavior, log bugs, improve content.
- easier to patch/ update (?)
- Possibility to have dynamic worlds or dynamic elements for additional attractiveness

Actually, I think this is a pretty good idea and I see it coming. You've probably noticed the rise of free to play asian MMOs recently? They offer an entire game world of content for free then make their money via micro-transactions, in game items and "prestige items" like special mounts. And they are making a fair amount of money!

And then you have Guild Wars, once-off cost for an MMO with a lot of the content instanced. And Age of Conan, which actually felt like playing KOTOR for the first 20 levels, the Destiny Quest part. I literally thought at the time that I would pay a small subscription fee to play a game like that, no problem. Unfortunately it became a standard MMO after level 20.

So I truly do believe it possible. Since it uses online technology I don't think it would end up being totally single player, I think it would be more likely to have social hubs where people meet and chat with instanced content around that. In fact that is essentially what a game like Guild Wars is. It simply needs more sp focus.

There are a few barriers though :

1) Tradition. MMOs copy each other more than even FPS. They are a bit more costly to create and maintain so the money-men want return on investment. So they focus on what has been proven to work.

2) Expectation of multiplayer. When you play online, people expect a social experience. Making an online single player experience is a fairly big risk and may fail simply because the online crowd rejects anything they can't play with their friends.

3) Content and Attention Span. This is also fairly problematic. It is more time consuming and expensive to make BG2 style story/quest content than grind based MMO content, and that content lasts for less time. As long as there is enough content people will stay around but online players can be fickle. If there isn't enough to interest them they wander away. You might release something new later but find they simply aren't paying attention anymore.

To counter that I'd say the best approach is mixed content. You could mix story based adventures with dungeon hacks and MMO style content. Add in social group content. Put in arenas so people can play competitively. If you have enough content for people to amuse themselves between releases of the more time consuming story content it may be enough.

Dynamic content could also be a good option, to help flesh things out. But dynamic content is not easy either, to combine two difficult projects into one means that the game has to be that much profitable, just something to keep in mind.

Multiple character saves is also a must. The ability to save your character in a story module, take them off and play in a dungeon hack module, then return to your old save point in the story module, etc.

4) Pricing. This isn't actually that bad, I agree with you that you simply sell content instead of subscriptions, or use advertising as a last resort (although advertising requires a large user base to start being profitable, so not good for startups). The trick is to find the right price point. The asian MMOs that make money like this often do so because people are competitive and seek prestige amongst their fellows. In a more sp experience, that isn't necessarily such a factor (for some players). And we all saw how much outrage there was about Oblivion horse armor, the type of sp gamers you want to attract might reject this. It's a risk.

But I think it's a fairly small risk, honestly. Imagine having a selection of player housing, keeps and wizards labs and suchlike, which you sell for $2-$5. I think many people would whip out their credit cards for that without much problem. I would.

5) Greed. Everyone sees the money WoW rakes in with subscriptions. So everyone wants to get a piece of that. Other, less outrageously profitable ideas may be simply overlooked.

I could even see a relative of Squeek/Benedict's idea working here, easily. Instead of a single world, release an editor which allows players to make and upload NWN-like modules to a content server which people can browse in-game. Definitely do-able, it's a simple extension of the NWN-style content. You could offer cash incentives to any user mod which achieved a certain number of downloads etc. Likewise I can eaily see a "content encyclopedia" where people can submit new items, buildings and monsters for others to use in their modules.

When you're talking a permanently online single-player hybrid with downloadable modules instead of a single world which people are all contributing to, all my objections drop away. Totally do-able. I'd even say that we will see more like that in the future, definitely. Hell, the idea excites me, I may try it myself sometime. ;)

[Benedict]

I could even see a relative of Squeek/Benedict's idea working here, easily. Instead of a single world, release an editor which allows players to make and upload NWN-like modules to a content server which people can browse in-game. Definitely do-able, it's a simple extension of the NWN-style content. You could offer cash incentives to any user mod which achieved a certain number of downloads etc. Likewise I can eaily see a "content encyclopedia" where people can submit new items, buildings and monsters for others to use in their modules.

When you're talking a permanently online single-player hybrid with downloadable modules instead of a single world which people are all contributing to, all my objections drop away. Totally do-able. I'd even say that we will see more like that in the future, definitely. Hell, the idea excites me, I may try it myself sometime. ;)

Hah, so I'm not mad! Not completely anyway . . . .

Glad you think it's not a totally misguided idea, but I'm loving your ideas for what you're already trying to do so stick with that for the moment *cracks whip*

When are you hoping for a release anyway?

[hishadow]

@Naked Ninja: Nice analogy about the machine-instructions/data relationship. Ultimately, you need technical knowledge to device and understand these machine-level schemes, but being machine-level it seems extremely easy to crack.

@Squeek: You have to conceded that some of your assumptions about your scheme are flawed if you're not talking about client-server. Creating mods (data + scripts) doesn't alter the machine-code of the game. If you want your code to rearrange itself, then that would essentially mean an official game-patch from the developer. That could work with, say NWN2, a game so buggy that it need monthly patches. :p

Anyway, the closest thing I can think of that collaborate your idea, would be a repository (client-server) where modders (with partial access to the games sourcecode) can contribute updates (on machine-instruction level - not scripts) and let the developer create a monthly game-patch. The problem here is that you open yourself up to a can-of-worms security-wise. The game then becomes a commercial open-source project and I find it hard to imagine programmers wanting to contribute on that level. One additional problem is that your machine-level protection-scheme doesn't change, so a willful cracker could just repeat his crack. The upside has to be that getting updates are so valuable, that fiddling around with new cracks becomes so tedious that it's not worth it.

[GhanBuriGhan]

One aspect of squeeks idea seems to be that the player basically doesn't know which mods he receives (because of how they are interactively acquired), so that it is very hard for pirates to emulate this customization effect. So taking into account what NN pointed out about mods usually being data not patches, and the difficulty of a modular patching aproach, it would still seem such a setup could be dissuading to pirates, because they would basically have to setup a similar service.
That is assuming that a pirated version could NOT access the online service.

@NN thanks for the reply on my question, I'll rspond to that later, when I have more time.

[Naked Ninja]

One aspect of squeeks idea seems to be that the player basically doesn't know which mods he receives (because of how they are interactively acquired), so that it is very hard for pirates to emulate this customization effect.

The problem is that, while the player doesn't know what mods are received, the code has to. The server can't just log onto your machine and swap around files, it need to connect to a game patching update software, send down a list of files to modify etc. Which means all your pirate needs to do is crack the updater which in turn gives them full access to the list of changes being sent down from the server to the client.

It isn't tedious because it's easy to automate. You just subvert the update process. Once the machine code that is running the data files is compromised it's essentially an enemy agent. If it knows how the pieces fit together, the pirate knows, yes?

Even if you automated it so that the system takes you picks, creates a large merged file with all of them in it and sent that down, a pirate can just create automated scripts to download each option available and distribute them in a large pack. In fact, you could reverse engineer the process. Simply choose pick A, get the file. Choose pick B, get the file. Choose pick A+B, get the composite, see how it differs from A and B standalone. Do that for a couple and figure out the pack format. Once you know the format you can download all of them individually and write your own packer app for your pirate friends.

Believe me, pirates get off on that kind of thing, challenge gives them wood. :P

If they can crack protected media formats and DRM, they will get through this. The only way to really protect it is to keep your game logic on the server.

[Benedict]

You just subvert the update process.

Bah, there's a way round everything!

Can't the update process effectively be a form of regular online activation though?

[GhanBuriGhan]

Sorry, I wasn't being clear, I think. I meant that the process of selecting these mods represents a service that the pirates can't easily reproduce, not that they cant crack and reproduce the modular content per se.

Say, you have the software poll your playing style, getting lots of stats about what you do, what you don't do, how much time you spend with what sort of activities. Noting that you seem to do a lot of fighting, but tend to win easily, the server installs a pack containing more difficult opponents, automatically. It also notes you prefer axes for your handywork, so it adds an axe weaponpack, and a quest for a special magic axe (which is a generic quest for "special weapon" but the server adjusts the reward to be an axe before uploading to you). Later, noting that you hit level 50 and are a warrior, and stated in a poll that you love huge dungeons, it adds an advanced quest module suited to these needs (again a generic dungeon quest, but noting that you have not encountered monster XYZ yet, the server software tweaks the dungeon to contain that monster for you). Etc, etc.
Another player with a warlock character would get very different custom content.

If you do not have the legit copy you need to log to a pirate site, screen the (possibly vague) description of what the pack does, and decide if you want it. Maybe not a HUGE deal, but assuming you could have several hundred "molecular" addons and the software is actually smart about choosing those, and maaybe does additional things like fine-tune content, your graphical performance and difficulty settings for you - you'd have an added value that would, to me, seem hard to reproduce for a pirate site.

[Squeek]

So that makes you which, an engineer or a scientist...Speak plainly Squeek, tell me what it is you do and how much experience you have in this field so that we can speak frankly, without verbal smokescreens. I'm guessing not so much, or there wouldn't be the need to dance around so much. But I welcome you to prove me wrong mate.So you're just going to drag this down further and further then? If we're going to compare dicks, then I suppose we ought to do it like men and include actual result.

I retired at the age of forty-two after working as a consultant who offered value to businesses at the cutting edge of a handful of hot areas that were crazy with competition. I was able to do it without an advanced education by taking advantage of the state of their technology and their markets and how they were emerging and morphing quickly and in ways that were simply too confusing for them to visualize. It was during a period when even the best and smartest among them struggled to keep up with it all while also doing their jobs. So I made of point of familiarizing and then positioning myself to be able to offer them a helping hand.

Like me, I imagine some of them might smile at the idea of you looking down your nose at them, especially the way you did it. ;)

This conversation should have hinged right here:

You can't just change the overall structure of the base code every time (even re-write the base code), that's like re-writing the game, incredibly time consuming and expensive and driven by human effort, not an automated process.You devoted thirty-seven words to discussing the actual point, all of them dismissive, and about a thousand words to your other point, insisting they were the same. You refused to get off your soap box, even after finally catching and considering your mistake. Yeah, I was talking about a great big project. I’m a fan. That’s what I want. That's how I’ve described it in the first place and what I meant when I told you I was talking about something much bigger than you were describing.

Argue your point all you want, and you're right, but only the same way Lou Costello was right about Who being on first. It’s being right by virtue of stubbornly missing the point and dwelling on something else. It seems like intellectualism for unsophisticated thinkers to me. But I'm no scientist.

I'll go over it again slowly:

Imagine a game maker and his efforts over the course of creating ten games. But instead of making ten individual games, he created ten greatly-different versions of the same game. And he did it cleverly in a modular fashion where he was able to swap pieces of each version with the others. After having finished all that, he then continued making new swappable pieces.

If that developer were then to offer customers access to what he made (and was continuing to make) in exchange for monthly payments, what position would that put him in and how might he proceed from there? I'm no Naked Ninja, but that sounds like a nice setup to me, one that would be a win-win for him and his customers both.

Let's stop for a reality check. This is a fan site, a place where gamers discuss their views and opinions, including their dreams for the future. A fan asking a dev to understand him correctly isn't an argument for being technically correct. Reasonably, you’d think a dev would be especially good at understanding the point being made.

Earlier in this thread you claimed to be a highly-trained and experienced software engineer. Maybe. But I see someone with a big mouth who pounces on opportunities to leverage his own knowledge to bully people outside his field who disagree with him. Based on my own experience, I suspect you're just a guy who's never succeeded at anything, despite his education.

[Squeek]

Creating mods (data + scripts) doesn't alter the machine-code of the game. If you want your code to rearrange itself, then that would essentially mean an official game-patch from the developer.Exactly. That barks up the same tree as mine, and I agree completely. If I'm right, then that points out the difference between my thought and Ninja's take on it.
Anyway, the closest thing I can think of that collaborate your idea, would be a repository (client-server) where modders (with partial access to the games sourcecode) can contribute updates (on machine-instruction level - not scripts) and let the developer create a monthly game-patch. Again, that's exactly the sort of thing I imagined. I'm sorry I threw that in at this point, because it turned out to be a big source of confusion. See my above post about my main idea.

[Naked Ninja]

I retired at the age of forty-two after working as a consultant who offered value to businesses at the cutting edge of a handful of hot areas that were crazy with competition. I was able to do it without an advanced education by taking advantage of the state of their technology and their markets and how they were emerging and morphing quickly and in ways that were simply too confusing for them to visualize. It was during a period when even the best and smartest among them struggled to keep up with it all while also doing their jobs. So I made of point of familiarizing and then positioning myself to be able to offer them a helping hand.

Firstly, and without rancor : congrats on doing well enough to retire at 42, that's a great achievement. One which most of us would be envious of, no doubt. I would certainly love to achieve that. I've got 15 years before I can say I failed to, of course, but that doesn't lessen the impressiveness of your feat any. Well done.

That being said, to recap, you were a tech-savvy business analyst who helped companies see strategic opportunities and ways to be more efficient. Nothing wrong with that at all. Now, which part makes you qualified to tell me my understanding of software design and principles is flawed/less than your own?

If your argument is that you see a business opportunity for a game which is endlessly adaptable and customizes itself continuously to provide endless adventure, well, I agree. I also see a market for that hypothetical piece of software. I also see a market for holiday resorts on the moon. Doesn't make them feasible. Possible, yes, most ideas are conceptually possible. Feasible right now? No. Don't tell people who don't think your idea feasible that they "just don't get it" until you know the exact extent of what you are describing. It's fairly ironic. :)

Like me, I imagine some of them might smile at the idea of you looking down your nose at them, especially the way you did it.

The thought of these hypothetical individual's hypothetical amusement is deeply mortifying to me. I consider myself humbled. Hypothetically.

You devoted thirty-seven words to discussing the actual point, all of them dismissive, and about a thousand words to your other point, insisting they were the same. You refused to get off your soap box, even after finally catching and considering your mistake. Yeah, I was talking about a great big project. I’m a fan. That’s what I want. That's how I’ve described it in the first place and what I meant when I told you I was talking about something much bigger than you were describing.

Oh no you don't. You don't get to cherry-pick the parts of my posts which you think support your points and dismiss the rest as nonsense.

And I don't think you understand what I meant by incredibly time consuming, expensive and driven by human effort. I mean expensive like building a moon resort is expensive. Not just doubling or tripling the usual game budget, I mean that the solution you were talking about would cost a good percentage of the games original price, both money and time, each time the user selects different preferences. To make it so the code was "completely different and uncrackable each time the user selected different options, resulting in totally different versions!" would require restructuring and then rebuilding the bloody thing each time, as I indicated with the car-music cd example. By programmers. If you build it in modular chunks that are simply shuffled around, the hackers simply figure out ways to identify the modules, build a tool to automate the process of identifying the shuffled modules and bam, easily cracked each time.

No, what you want is something different, you want the whole thing to morph structure each time, so it's just as difficult for the hackers to crack time X as it is time X+1. That's a job that cannot be automated at this time or in the near future, if it was almost all programmers would be out jobs right now. So let's be clear, we're talking a good percentage of the total cost to make the game every time the player changes out mods, if we are theorizing about your pipedream. Does your finely trained business mind see this as viable, commercially?

It's not 10 times the cost for 10 times the content. It's a multiple of the cost every time the user chooses to customise the experience. If one user does that 15 times, it's 15 multiplied by X, where X is the cost in time and money to rebuild the game. On top of your original 10x.

Argue your point all you want, and you're right, but only the same way Lou Costello was right about Who being on first.

I cannot be bothered to google this reference. I assume you're being hypocritical by being dismissive of my points even when you complained that I was dismissive of your ideas previously?

I'll go over it again slowly:

Aye-aye chief. Thog try read real hard now, but read hurt Thog brain.

Imagine a game maker and his efforts over the course of creating ten games. But instead of making ten individual games, he created ten greatly-different versions of the same game.

Right, with you so far. So that is 10x the cost of basic development so far, for one game. Which means you need massive returns.

And he did it cleverly in a modular fashion where he was able to swap pieces of each version with the others.

Right, so vastly different, but with swappable pieces that magically fit together perfectly? Ahahah, sorry, no. If the pieces fit together that means they have common interfaces and means to communicate. Which means that hackers can easily use that to identify the pieces, despite your shuffling.

You know games are already built in a modular fashion, right? Or did you think you came up with the idea? Open up one of your game directories, note all those dlls? Those are sound libraries, physics libraries, security modules and rendering engines. All cleverly modular and able to be shuffled out if needed. It's not hard to figure out how the pieces connect and communicate.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8173/modular.th.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=modular.jpg)

Once they know what piece they are looking for they can find it again fairly easily, perhaps even automate the process. Remember, it's one small thing they need to change, not all the shuffled pieces. They simply need to break the security check code. Which means, once it's cracked the first time, they simply need to be able to find it again. Your shuffling isn't going to be enough to stop them doing that quickly, even automating the process.

But lets say you wanted to do it so they didn't have common interfaces and means to communicate but they were still magically swappable like you describe. Well, now we're talking magic pixie dust. We're talking rebuilding the game (practically making a new game each time) by hand at a percentage of the base cost each and every time the player chooses different settings. Months of work and vast expense, each and every time. Of course, we're assuming players will all sit around happily waiting while the programmers rebuild them their "car" from so they can play another "music cd". And that a company with say 30 programmers will have the capability to do that for lets say 2000 players! Lol! But lets go on.

After having finished all that, he then continued making new swappable pieces.

The ones which hackers will have an easy time subverting because they can figure out the interfaces and calling procedures or the magic pixie dust ones?

If that developer were then to offer customers access to what he made (and was continuing to make) in exchange for monthly payments, what position would that put him in and how might he proceed from there?

I dunno. In case A he is in trouble because all his clever pieces will be downloaded, cracked and distributed on torrents in days/weeks, and his development costs are at minimum 10x normal. Hmmm, he'd be pretty f*cked I think. In case A.

In case B : I dunno, what's the cost of pixie dust? Depends on income vs expenses, after all. Business 101, that. We'd have to look at the exchange rates with the Fairy Kingdom at that time.

I'm no Naked Ninja

I think that is clear.

Let's stop for a reality check.

No, no, I'm getting the hang of this now. Let's talk about holiday resorts on the moon next please. Let's go tell reality developers and civil engineers that they "don't get it!" and then proceed to lecture them about the advantages of moon holidays.

This is a fan site, a place where gamers discuss their views and opinions, including their dreams for the future. A fan asking a dev to understand him correctly isn't an argument for being technically correct. Reasonably, you’d think a dev would be especially good at understanding the point being made.

Lol, jokes aside, when you enter a thread about my ideas and proceed to tell me I "just don't get it", you lose all rights to play wounded dove whose innocent ideas were shot down by the mean ol' ninja. Sorry Squeeker. You weren't asking me to understand. You weren't asking anything at all. You were telling us all how it should be. And calling people who didn't think your idea feasible dumb/blind.

But fear not, I have taken the time and do understand you. 100%, give or take 0.74%.

Earlier in this thread you claimed to be a highly-trained and experienced software engineer. Maybe. But I see someone with a big mouth who pounces on opportunities to leverage his own knowledge to bully people outside his field who disagree with him. Based on my own experience, I suspect you're just a guy who's never succeeded at anything, despite his education.

Lol, of course you do. You don't like me at all Squeek, that is fairly obvious, so of course you want to believe that I have no worthwhile qualities nor have I achieved anything of worth. Don't worry, I understand and am not offended. Vent away my good hamster/gerbil/whatnot.

Exactly. That barks up the same tree as mine, and I agree completely. If I'm right, then that points out the difference between my thought and Ninja's take on it.

Now ask him how much time and effort it would take to create a game patch which "completely changes the game code". Most game patches are things which make tiny changes designed to fix a few bugs in the code, and even those take a month/months of development. And a code restructure is a completely different story to the game patches you are thinking about Squeek, vastly more complex and time consuming.

Again, that's exactly the sort of thing I imagined. I'm sorry I threw that in at this point, because it turned out to be a big source of confusion. See my above post about my main idea.

Lol, or rather you just think it is. Take a second to imagine what happens if modders got access to source code instead of just data files and game scripts...you know you cannot tell a modder from a hacker offhand, yeah? You have now given them the source, the "blueprints", made the game dramatically easier to crack, not harder.

Also, have you paid attention to the open source scene? Open-source games? Have you noted how it isn't a flood of never-ending adventure and new content? It's like the modding scene, a few gems and a whole bunch of cruft/unfinished stuff. But with a higher barrier to entry, technical skill-wise. So I'm fairly certain it's not going to be this endless stream of adventure you imagine.

Especially since the devs who are actually skilled with the engine are going to be spending vast amounts of time making sure the amateurs haven't completely screwed everything up/added legions of bugs/slipped viruses and trojans out to their user-base in the engine code. Imagine the great PR that would generate, haha! And doing all this while rebuilding the game code for each and every change in mod loadout.

But hey, I hear the weather on the moon is lovely this time of year.

[Corwin]

Gareth, I enjoy your slightly sarcastic sense of humour. I'm keen to see it in operation in SoW in hopefully the not too distant future!! Personally, I think the moon is too cold for a decent resort!! :)

[Squeek]

You were telling us all how it should be. And calling people who didn't think your idea feasible dumb/blind. No, I didn’t. Quote me, please.

Now, which part makes you qualified to tell me my understanding of software design and principles is flawed/less than your own? I'll ask you to quote me on that too, because I don’t remember challenging anyone’s abilities. Yes, you've taken offense at my pointing out that you reached a wrong conclusion, and I can only assume that's what you mean. Why is that offensive, because it's me? I suppose I might want to take offense at your taking offense!

When I visit sites like this one and read complaints about CRPGs being too thin and too shallow and with not enough choice and consequence, I have to think that means they need to become fuller and deeper. And when I stop and think about WoW's dominance of this genre and its huge on-going development efforts, the points that stand out about it are WoW's use of the Internet and implementation of subscription-pricing.

To me it's then natural and obvious to consider how single-player game makers might want to transition over to subscription pricing and how they might offer their own continuous development in exchange.

No one would ever suggest that a developer could simply start asking for monthly payments in exchange for a promise to mod his game. But you seem convinced I have and have taken offense at my assurances and explanations that I’m not.

So let's be clear, we're talking a good percentage of the total cost to make the game every time the player changes out mod...(...)...It's not 10 times the cost for 10 times the content. It's a multiple of the cost every time the user chooses to customise the experience. If one user does that 15 times, it's 15 multiplied by X, where X is the cost in time and money to rebuild the game. On top of your original 10x.I certainly am describing a huge and expensive amount of work, yes. But if you’re referring to my suggestion, then you have the timing all wrong. My idea would involve up-front development (a lot of it and much of it redundant), and after it reached a sufficient point, continuous redundant development.

Instead of creating a single version of a game that might be modified later, it would fill a reservoir full of game pieces to be allocated in sensible complete packages (or versions). And it would be designed in a way that would lend itself to convenient alteration so that its individual pieces could be easily exchanged.

*edit* That would surely reduce overall development costs. I'm not a software guy, but I have to think it would be dramatic. So for example, the cost of developing ten different versions of a single game would be far lower than the cost of developing ten individual games.

Simply put, I'm imagining an alternative to developing one big expensive super-game and offering it up for sale all at once. This uses the Internet and would put single-player CRPG makers in a position where they could justify subscription payments in exchange for the bigger, fuller games their customers want.

As far as pirating goes, I think this would circumvent piracy for two reasons. It would be a lot of work and never really worthwhile to pirate, because no pirated version would ever be as good as the real deal, and that's enough of a win for developers.

They say 99% of Internet arguments are a result of people being unable to understand or be understood. That’s definitely the case here. You’ve worked hard to make your point, Ninja, and I can see that. Most of it’s been on the wrong page, unfortunately.

[Squeek]

Sorry, I wasn't being clear, I think. I meant that the process of selecting these mods represents a service that the pirates can't easily reproduce, not that they cant crack and reproduce the modular content per se.I don't know how I overlooked it earlier, but this entire post is exactly the sort of thing I'm imagining.

I like your ideas a lot, GBG. There are a whole myriad of ways games could track player actions and react to them.

[Squeek]

At this point I'm going to go ahead and acquiesce to Naked Ninja, giving him the final word. Not only is he a dev, he's an indie dev, the kind we all respect and especially want to support and encourage. So this is my last post in this thread.