The more I play the more disappointed I get

[mbuddha]

I really enjoyed the first area. It felt very open ended and mysterious. Many little quests that could be solved in a different order and certain things remain unsolvable until the right conditions are met. I like that. There were even some speech skill checks.

Spoilerish from here on:

Moving on to the next area wasn't bad at first. The city is acceptable. It doesn't have the ambience and characters found in The Witcher's city areas but it's not bad either. I enjoyed the investigation, but then I realized not once were any skill checks used when interrogating all those NPCs, what a wasted opportunity! Especially considering I created a character with buffed social skills.

Then the dungeon crawl 'deep below Ferdok' - it's probably optional but it's so unimaginative. No secret areas, nothing interesting whatsoever. Just 'wolf rat' spam attacks for four levels until you fight a large boss wolf rat.

Going to get Dranor out of jail, there are two guards facing away talking about hearing something, so I think naturally I have to sneak past. When leaving I decided to run past to see what happens and there's no reaction! They just keep repeating the same conversation. Another wasted opportunity.

And if an NPC has a problem that only you can solve, they'll keep obnoxiously repeating the same line over and over again until you take the quest.

I'm starting to wonder why this game is so acclaimed. I do like some aspects of it, and I'll press on a little longer in hopes of some improvement, some more use of non combat skills, and a little more creativity like in the first area. Am I expecting too much from the rest of the game?

[NFLed]

You are focusing on the negative. I agree that the rat spam was too much but the other things you mention don't bother me, I don't look at wasted opportunities I see an enjoyable game. For example, if an NPC repeats the same line over and over until you take his quest I don't care about that, it doesn't bother me at all, I take his quest and that's the end of it.

The game is definitely not close to perfect or perfectly polished. However, it's very enjoyable from what I have played so far.

[mbuddha]

ok the repeated line thing isn't that bad (but it's silly when the guards repeat their entire conversation about hearing rats and wanting to play dice. I guess I should've known that sneaking was pointless therefore wouldn't have kept hearing it)

It's the lack of non combat skill checks that's a real letdown, especially for a game that has long stretches without combat.

[bkrueger]

Did you play many sidequests? You must have been unlucky so far, because there are many social skill related conversation options, you get them even for skills of your companions. As far as I remember you get no skill roll after choosing an option, but you only get the option if the skill is high enough.

[Curunír]

As far as I remember you get no skill roll after choosing an option, but you only get the option if the skill is high enough.

In most cases that is true, however in some cases you must pass a roll. Of the top of my mind I can think about the ...
Stoerrebrandt quest where you have to convince Tashman to "investigate".

[Dasale]

There are plenty skills check, yes more would have been better and yes the game isn't the best polished. Look at it differently:

The Witcher has no skill check when Drakenseng hasn't enough skills check but much more than The Witcher. :biggrin:
In The Witcher you feel there are limits quite often when in Drakensang you get much more feeling of freedom even if sometimes it's more smart illusion.
Drakensang use 3D much much better than the Witcher in order to avoid a flat non imaginative area design.
The Witcher towns get the best life animation I ever saw in a CRPG, hard to compare with it on this point. But those towns have weak points in comparison with Drakensang, poor performances, few streets, very small towns, boring empty little houses, a 3D design much less intricate than in Drakensang, much less stuff to discover than in the Drakensang town...
Your complain about repetitive fights and lack of secrets is valid but The Witcher know well felt into this problem too and I don't remember much traps as the traps with more than 10 rats suddenly rushing on you.
The Witcher fights had a terrible flaw allowing in most fights to just focus on a stupid hit chaining just looking at the cursor color when Drakensang fights haven't such hole and when fights get some challenge they are quite fun.


The Dranor quest you quote is a nice little quest, with surprises and quite funny, that worth much more than a sneak skill check.

About that, go on so, there's a skill check then you fail it because in your team you have a dwarf with no sneak skills... Then how it continues? You enter in war with all the town? You kills the guards and nobody notice? Well the game option is the guard dialog that explains the lack of sneak skill check. Quite smart if you ask me.

The more I play the more I enjoy Drakensang. But well The Witcher is quite good and at the end I'm almost sure that I'll consider it better. But that doesn't mean all other CRPG not as good are bad.

[Dasale]

In most cases that is true, however in some cases you must pass a roll...

I think in many cases but you'll hardly notice a succeed roll, the game mention that the NPC shows it by his reaction but well for me it's not obvious except when I failed one.

With all the skilled companions you have the game is somehow setup to match a lot their skills. That make your PC skills less obviously usefull, but well that's also the nice part of party games.

[Curunír]

I think in many cases but you'll hardly notice a succeed roll, the game mention that the NPC shows it by his reaction but well for me it's not obvious except when I failed one.

You might be correct. I remember recently getting a fail on an early social talent option (don't remember which, though) which I would have put in the "always succeeds, if it shows up" category before, because I attempted it with an abyssmal skill value in the respective talent.

[mute]

The more i play the more immersed i become. I was little dissapointed in the beginning and the first quests. But now - oh boy. I can't stop playing. Don't know how far i come and i don't wanna know. :-)

[NFLed]

ok the repeated line thing isn't that bad (but it's silly when the guards repeat their entire conversation about hearing rats and wanting to play dice. I guess I should've known that sneaking was pointless therefore wouldn't have kept hearing it)

It's the lack of non combat skill checks that's a real letdown, especially for a game that has long stretches without combat.

I could use more non-combat skill checks and hopefully that would be part of a sequel. It's very tough to come up with situations in which non-combat skill checks could be meaningful and realistic so I wouldn't expect a ton of it in a first game. That said, there are still a lot of non-combat skill checks with a whole lot of lockpicking, a good amount of disable traps, plant lore a huge amount, animal lore a huge amount.... Hmmm, I take back what I indicated, there are plenty of non-combat skill checks! There aren't all that many meaningful conversation skill checks, though, so hopefully that can be improved in a sequel if done well.

I like Dasale's post comparing The Witcher to Drakensang. I enjoyed The Witcher but I'm enjoying Drakensang quite a bit more (part of that is due to the very poor translation for The Witcher when I played it before the patch but that's only part of it).

[PulpExposure]

The brewery was the least interesting area I've run into in Drakensang. It's basically just a long dungeon crawl.

I didn't know that the guards didn't react to you not sneaking; however, there are multiple times where you do need to sneak past enemies (or get rewarded for doing so), in upcoming dungeons.

Also, there are a lot of ways the game anticipates your actions. I'd wait until you get to say...the zone past the Marsh (Bloodstone Mountains I think it's called). You'll see at that point.

[mbuddha]

There are plenty skills check, yes more would have been better and yes the game isn't the best polished. Look at it differently:
The Witcher has no skill check when Drakenseng hasn't enough skills check but much more than The Witcher.

I wasn't comparing the two games just the vibe of the city areas and that I said that while Drakensang's areas are nice The Witcher's are much better. But seeing as you expand upon the comparison, the absence of skill checks in TW is a moot point because there aren't any social skills in that system and the dialogue, voice acting, and story are much better (so far).


In The Witcher you feel there are limits quite often when in Drakensang you get much more feeling of freedom even if sometimes it's more smart illusion.

I think the level of freedom is about the same in both games. Drakensang has plenty of sections blocked off by carts, so I don't see how there is much more freedom than in The Witcher. At least in terms of the city.


The Witcher towns get the best life animation I ever saw in a CRPG, hard to compare with it on this point. But those towns have weak points in comparison with Drakensang, poor performances, few streets, very small towns, boring empty little houses, a 3D design much less intricate than in Drakensang, much less stuff to discover than in the Drakensang town...

I haven't played far enough to comment on that other than I found the interior locations and NPCs to be MUCH more interactive in The Witcher.

Your complain about repetitive fights and lack of secrets is valid but The Witcher know well felt into this problem too and I don't remember much traps as the traps with more than 10 rats suddenly rushing on you.
The Witcher fights had a terrible flaw allowing in most fights to just focus on a stupid hit chaining just looking at the cursor color when Drakensang fights haven't such hole and when fights get some challenge they are quite fun.


I wasn't complaining about the combat itself. I quite enjoy the combat in Drakensang, just wish the enemies were less repetitive in some areas that I've played so far and also read that this happens some more towards the end. I also enjoy the combat in TW and while I suppose the swamp area was overkill in terms of enemies they could be avoided and weren't part of a quest, plus they were much more varied.

About that, go on so, there's a skill check then you fail it because in your team you have a dwarf with no sneak skills... Then how it continues? You enter in war with all the town? You kills the guards and nobody notice? Well the game option is the guard dialog that explains the lack of sneak skill check. Quite smart if you ask me.

I suppose you have a point about the dwarf. I actually selected my two thief characters separately first to sneak cause I wasn't so sure how much farther I needed to go but I guess the game isn't designed to really separate your characters. The conversations should play only once though cause it just sounds stupid.

The more I play the more I enjoy Drakensang. But well The Witcher is quite good and at the end I'm almost sure that I'll consider it better. But that doesn't mean all other CRPG not as good are bad.

I agree and I don't think Drakensang is bad, just disappointing in some areas, more so than other games I like.

[Dasale]

For games comparison you did many between The Witcher and Drakensang I tried follow that approach.

For the conversation replay it's a little complicate in case you don't notice it the first time it is triggered, there's the log but it could be override by some other messages. But yes, few random pauses and few different random talks could have provide the information in a more pleasant way.

As wrote NFLed you focus too much on the negative, Drakenseng has plenty positive points including some you won't find in the Witcher like the numerous cool companions or as I already wrote a much better use of 3D to design terrains and towns.

Any CRPG has plenty weaker points, even The Witcher or Gothic 2 NOTR which is my all time favorite. Drakensang has probably more weaker points that those both but, for me at least, it is very enjoyable anyway. Too bad for you if you can't enjoy its qualities, but clearly I won't be able help you. :)

[NFLed]

"Any CRPG has plenty weaker points..."

That's true, it's a very complicated thing to create an enjoyable and realistic CRPG to our preferences (i.e. not a JRPG or action-RPG) and there will always be some sort of implementation which could use improvement. I somewhat enjoyed The Witcher and only slightly enjoyed Gothic 2, I'm enjoying Drakensang a whole lot more than either of those and I hope that word gets out (to other than Germany) so more people buy it because that would help future good CRPGs get funded and created.

[Damian Mahadevan]

The witcher disappointed me immensely. I absolutely loathe the fact that it didnt matter what choices you make as long as you get to have sex with the girls to get those damn cards. It is like the killed off the moral consequences just for the sake of the the card mini game. After a while i couldnt take it any more.

[Dhruin]

Huh? Ignore the card game - I certainly didn't bother with it. How did they affect everything else?

[Damian Mahadevan]

I was referring to the witcher's card collecting sidequest thingy not drakensangs which i havent even started(dont know how to). The combat was okay in the witcher, but what compelled me to the witcher orginally was the story but it turns out that it was nothing but a facade for collecting those cards. As in the worst choice you make in the witcher is not choosing the options to get to sleeping with the girls.

[Thoth]

Well, I've been two days into this game and I've been enjoying it. It's not the prettiest game, like the Witcher, but I'd say it has WAY more character. I love seeing all the funny little dialogues between the townspeople. I like that these conversations go on for awhile and that the developers weren't afraid to make the player view some pretty long dialogue.

I take it from the lack of advertisement and interest in this game that whoever distributed this in NA wasn't very confident and probably didn't spend all that much money on it, and yet its localization is near flawless. The dialogue is clear and quite clever. This is something the Witcher failed miserably at, even in the Enhanced Edition. I could barely make out what the developer meant and couldn't help but facepalm whenever Geralt got into philosophy.

And yes, the sex cards are pretty lame. The game may be rated M for mature, but it's anything but that!

[mbuddha]

For games comparison you did many between The Witcher and Drakensang I tried follow that approach.

No, I only made one total comparison to The Witcher in my original post.


Any CRPG has plenty weaker points, even The Witcher or Gothic 2 NOTR which is my all time favorite. Drakensang has probably more weaker points that those both but, for me at least, it is very enjoyable anyway. Too bad for you if you can't enjoy its qualities, but clearly I won't be able help you. :)

Agreed on the all time fav.

I do find many positive things about Drakensang, I just haven't delved into them here. I like the combat, the party system, the playable characters and their dialogue, the visuals, and much of what I had already played was fun. I'm not done playing, perhaps like suggested I hit several less exemplary areas in a row, and some of the responses here mention there will be more of some of the things I expressed to be missing (i.e. sneaking past enemies and social skill checks). And as a series there's a lot of promise.

[Ergonpandilus]

Hi everyone!
The thread starter has exactly my words from the official Drakensang forum and at that point I felt the same, but believe me. The game gets "after" Ferdok much much better.

After completing few quests on Ferdok, and remember most of the quests are optional and you might want to pass some of them at that point, you will be heading areas like:

Just area types, no big spoilers.

- A murky marshes with crypts and a small town overrun by undeads. A bit like horror movie.
- A dark forest full of bandits, witches and inquisitors who fight each other. I LIKE it. :D
- A castle full of orcs on mountain range

[Dhruin]

I was referring to the witcher's card collecting sidequest thingy not drakensangs which i havent even started(dont know how to). The combat was okay in the witcher, but what compelled me to the witcher orginally was the story but it turns out that it was nothing but a facade for collecting those cards. As in the worst choice you make in the witcher is not choosing the options to get to sleeping with the girls.

Yeah, I get that you're talking about The Witcher (didn't even know DraSang had card collecting) but I simply don't get your point. I thought TW had one of the best CRPG stories in years and I didn't sleep with a bunch of girls - I just don't get your point.

Anyway, each to his own and this thread is about DraSang but I've never heard anyone else argue it was all a facade for the cards, and it certainly didn't work that way for me.

[Dez]

The cards in witcher seems to be some kind of red blanket to many here. TW had the most orginal storyline and atmosphere I've experienced in years in a rpg game. Plus it was a really fun game to play. It isn't perfect, but saying that storyline was facade for collecting girl cards is quite absurd claim. Besides as far as I've understood sleeping with many women is a usual thing for Geralt even in books, so game continues this tradtion by offering you THE CHOISE. The cards may have been a slight miscalculation from CD projekt as they don't really add much to the atmosphere, but either way they aren't the sole focus of Witcher.

And as for Drakensang I'm still debating whether to buy it or not. It seems genuinely fun rpg to play, but a bit generic in terms of atmosphere and storytelling..Am I right? Nonetheless there isn't anything better in the horisont for some time so I probably end up buying it anyhow and because i hope these new studios to keep doing more crpgs. :)

[Damian Mahadevan]

Yeah, I get that you're talking about The Witcher (didn't even know DraSang had card collecting) but I simply don't get your point. I thought TW had one of the best CRPG stories in years and I didn't sleep with a bunch of girls - I just don't get your point.

Anyway, each to his own and this thread is about DraSang but I've never heard anyone else argue it was all a facade for the cards, and it certainly didn't work that way for me.

You didnt find that you got the best rewards with the route for card collecting? I've tried the various options and that s the impression i got.

[wolfing]

You didnt find that you got the best rewards with the route for card collecting? I've tried the various options and that s the impression i got.

But you don't *have* to. It's like in jRPGs. Sometimes there's the bad ending, the good ending, and the super-good-ending. For the super-good-ending you need to do crazy stuff that most of the times you can only do it by following a walkthrough. Since I don't follow walkthroughs when playing, 95% of the times I miss the 'super-good-ending', that doesn't mean I enjoyed the game any less (in fact, I'd say I enjoyed it more since I didn't have to bother with things like wasting 1 hour running in the desert to find a gold coin under a cactus).
Just forget about the cards and play the game as you would like it.

[vanedor]

The thing that I disliked more about The Witcher is the gameplay. I didnt like the twitch aspect of it and I gave up while playing the marsh level.

The story, the atmosphere are really great... better than the one you can find in Drakensand but that alone was not enough to keep me in the game. I prefer a strategic based gameplay like the one found in Drakensang, with a party, a more complete set of equipment, greater customization... Not only trying to find out whatever weapons and potion/lotion/powder/whatever that deal better with your opponent du jour.

[wolfing]

The thing that I disliked more about The Witcher is the gameplay. I didnt like the twitch aspect of it and I gave up while playing the marsh level.

The story, the atmosphere are really great... better than the one you can find in Drakensand but that alone was not enough to keep me in the game. I prefer a strategic based gameplay like the one found in Drakensang, with a party, a more complete set of equipment, greater customization... Not only trying to find out whatever weapons and potion/lotion/powder/whatever that deal better with your opponent du jour.

Well there, I couldn't agree more. I think I quit The Witcher in about that same area. Twitch combat just doesn't mix with RPG for me.

[Gorath]

What kind of discussion style is this in this thread? Internet forums have traditions. If Drakensang has cards with naked babes I demand pictures! :gorath:

[Dasale]

Woo there are pornocards in Drakensang??? Where and how get them? :dance:

[wynams]

Not that I actually just did this or anything, but you might try rolling up a Novadi female, enter world, hit "I" ... lose the cloth coat, pantaloons and poulaines.

[Damian Mahadevan]

But you don't *have* to. It's like in jRPGs. Sometimes there's the bad ending, the good ending, and the super-good-ending. For the super-good-ending you need to do crazy stuff that most of the times you can only do it by following a walkthrough. Since I don't follow walkthroughs when playing, 95% of the times I miss the 'super-good-ending', that doesn't mean I enjoyed the game any less (in fact, I'd say I enjoyed it more since I didn't have to bother with things like wasting 1 hour running in the desert to find a gold coin under a cactus).
Just forget about the cards and play the game as you would like it.

I save and try all the possible options. In the witcher the best endings lies with sleeping with the female path, i like to think. And the witcher would have made me think if the best options didnt head that way. Such a dissapointment because of the missed opportunity there. Anyway back to drakensang.

[Dhruin]

Well, that's why we don't agree. You're busy figuring out what you didn't get, while I'm just playing the game as I see fit. Even then, I still don't understand - what rewards? I did romance Shani (seemed appropriate to me) - all I remember getting is a short video and a silly card. The "reward" there for me was being able to do something that seemed natural for my version of Geralt.

[Damian Mahadevan]

The "feel good" ending.

[Dhruin]

You'll have to spell it out to me, sorry. I played it twice, siding with each of the two main factions in turn. What's the "feel good" ending?

[RivianWitch]

Yeah, I really also don't understand what's with the the best endings lies with sleeping with the female path, idea.
Whether you choose to collect the sex cards or not, has zero effect at all on the main story line of TW, they are just fun little minigames like brawling and playing dice, and in fact, they are even less crucial to the storyline or gameplay than brawling or paying dice, because the latter you can win some money with, and all you get with the sex thing, is the card.

Well, if you read the books, what you get to understand is that Geralt was an experiment, who not only went through the Witcher mutation that rendered him sterile, and created an aura that makes him irresistible to women (2 of the side-effects) but also retained his human feelings and emotions. So, in a way, the sex thing is part of Geralt's personal story, because he sits with the dilemma that he can never settle down and have children; but on the other hand, women are attracted to him, and he is also attracted to them, for physical and emotional reasons - that is why he tends to be so promiscuous.

Also, as far as choices are concerned - in TW your choices have consequences all the way to the end. I'm busy with my second playthrough, and I guarantee you that different choices makes the game experience quite different. I've also played the mini-adventures that came with the Enhanced Ed., and "The Price of Neutrality" has 4 different endings, all of them based on choices you make, so I really don't get the point about your choices not mattering?

Also, the TW is pretty non-linear in the sense of that there are many different ways in which to tackle and solve quests. You can play the game 3 or 4 times in a row, and do it differently every time.

Lastly I'd better not comment on the TW combat which I enjoyed very much, as I do tend to play quite a bit of action games as well, and from that perspective the combat was actually very nice, and quite a lot less hectic and rather more tactical than what most Action-RPG's offer up.

Well, this is actually the Drakensang board, so... anyway, regarding Drakensang: I'm not really far enough in the game to comment, but I'm actually liking it more and more the more I play it. Early days though, I haven't done the ratfight under Ferdock yet... :p

Oh, and I find the graphics very pretty. My only gripe is with some of the character models. Those who enjoy having a sexy woman as their avatar at times, will be sadly disappointed should they decide to choose the female warrior... :roll: (I'm not talking about myself personally here, just a remark in general, you know?)

Oh, and talking of choices: my main gripe with Drakensang so far would probably be a lack of story choices. The story seems very linear, and there is only one way to solve quests.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Several people in the German Drakensang community (like me, I admit) were disappointed, because there was too much combat for them and too few riddles.

Maybe the German community is a bit different from the rest of the world, but I had the impression (subjective, of course) that quite a number of players wanted real consequences of actions - stealing was the worst example. Or of general actions within the game.

The most lengthy compailning "articles" wre intensively looking at Drakensang in quite a detailed view, and there were - to the critical eye, of course - many, many details that distracted their fun - the "real consequences" thing, for example.

In my case, the amount of combat became so much I just stopped the game mid-way, and have never resumed it this far.

I'm wondering whether German players really want more riddles than the rest of the world wants, or not. I have a slight tendency towards "yes", because Germans have a little bit different apptoach towards games, I think, than the majority out there, especially in the U.S. , where most games come from.

I call this "caltural differences", but I really can't boil it down to what these differences [Germany - rest of the world] really are at the moment.

But I think I can say that Germans are "traditionally" rather known as rather logically thinking people who aren't that much into emotions like other countries (cliché: Italy, Spain, for example).

So, considering this, I think I can say that I wouldn't be surprised if German gamers really would prefer more riddles than the rest of the world does.

I'm not sure.

The amount of sold units of Drakensang is impressive, but I really don't know what all of these people really think about it, whether the amount of riddles and of fighting is good enough for them or what, because in the forums there is only a tiny fraction of the overall sales.
And a common rule says that those who are content with something rarely post about it in forums.
On the other hand, people who are critical about something are rather posting about it in forums.

So, all I can see is the amount of complaints in the official forums, and meanwhile the amount of complaints is relatively small compared to the "non-complaints", they have one distinct characteristic: These posts are very, very much detailed than all other posts. Some of the complaining posts look like small, almost serious, reviews, very detailed, to a grade I don't think I would have the nerve for it.

[Damian Mahadevan]

You'll have to spell it out to me, sorry. I played it twice, siding with each of the two main factions in turn. What's the "feel good" ending?

Maybe i didnt get far in the game, but i got up to the vampires in town bit. But it seemed to me the game chastised you with a negative ending each time you choose the path that you didnt sleep with the girls. Am i wrong in this?

[RivianWitch]

Maybe i didnt get far in the game, but i got up to the vampires in town bit. But it seemed to me the game chastised you with a negative ending each time you choose the path that you didnt sleep with the girls. Am i wrong in this?

I think you have totally the wrong end of the stick with a few things there.
Firstly, the quest you are referring to there, "Blue Eyes" is completely a side quest which you don't have to do at all. Secondly, the "good" ending there, comes not because of sleeping with the vampires, but with not killing them. You can actually still get a "good" ending with that quest, without actually sleeping with the vampires, as long as you choose the blue-eyed girl's side against her brother.
The worst ending is killing the vampires and letting the brother take the girl.

All that the game is trying to say there, is that what makes someone a monster, is not what he/she looks like on the outside but what he she is by nature, which is a strong theme in the books, and is also echoed when you have to decide whether to kill Vincent or not (a point you might not even have reached yet, seeing as you are still so early in the game). In fact, you are still so early in the game, that you have not really started seeing the consequences of your choices yet. I really can't see how you can make such sweeping statements about a game you have not played yet.

Let me use an earlier choice in the game as an example: the choice between whether you let Abigail live or not. This has NOTHING to do with whether you sleep with her or not. You can sleep with her and let her die, or not sleep with her and choose to have the mob kill her, or vice versa; - the one choice does not influence the other choice, so I totally disagree with your statement that the "sleeping with the woman choice" is ever the right or wrong choice.
The consequences do not come from whether you sleep with them or not - that aspect is totally irrelevant to the rest of the game, but from whether you choose to let people/"monsters" live or die.

The only "sex"/romance choice that has any bearing later on in the game, is whether you choose Triss or Shani, and that does not influence the outcome of the game, it only influences which one will act as your companion.

[RivianWitch]

Please excuse my double post - the refer to different posts and even different games.
Several people in the German Drakensang community (like me, I admit) were disappointed, because there was too much combat for them and too few riddles.

[snip]
So, considering this, I think I can say that I wouldn't be surprised if German gamers really would prefer more riddles than the rest of the world does.

I'm not sure.

[snip].

Alrik, you know, when gaming started out, it was actually nice that the genres were so mixed. There was a lot of "adventuring" and riddles in games like Ultima and Quest for Glory; but games have become more and more "dumbed down", as young people with consoles wanting action only are currently dominating the market.

I see that your English is very good, so you have the best of more than one world, the German gaming scene is pretty good, and they also make quite a few adventure games, as many studios from other nationalities do as well.

Although I generally find "Adventure games" (games with mainly riddles and puzzles, and traditionally little to zero combat) generally a bit too slow to my tastes, I do find that I enjoy faster -paced ones like Overclocked for instance.

I very much enjoyed the Frogwares Sherlock Holmes games, and their Dracula Origin, all games in this genre, and I'm planning on playing "Heart of Darkness: In pursuit of Loath Nolder" next, as I rather enjoy horror-ish themes.. (Interestingly, Dracula actually had a lot of riddles and puzzles to solve)
However, there are many other games which are more "pure puzzle" games, with more "logic puzzles" such as the Myst and Aura series. Have you tried any of those out yet?

Anyway, back to topic: considering what you generally get on the RPG market these days, especially in the English-speaking world, I'm already finding that Drakensang has a pleasing amount of puzzles/riddles to my taste, and relatively little combat. So, personally, so far, I am happy. :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

@RivianWitch: I come, so to say, from the Adventure games genre. This is my "home" in gaming.

Actually, I'm more than pleased that adventure games are oming again. Especially in the German-lkanguage market with dtp as a prominent distributor (also handled Drakensang in Germany).

My personal wish is a mixture between PG and Adventure games. There are a few attempts out there, but they are not going into the directions I wish for.

My personal favourite part in RPGs is the actual role play, plus the character growth.

That combined with an adventure-like environment would seem ideal to me.

The imho funny thing is that REAL role playing in P&P offer sooooo much more of possibilities in gameplay.
Yet developers all over the world just stick to a rather combat-related gameplay.
It's to me as if developers worldwide try to refrain themselves by just picking a few aspects of P&P role play, and that is mainly combat.

Other aspects are relely emphasised, for example riddles. I could very well imagine a group of adventurers invading a fortress of an evil sorcerer, and meanwhile they must proceed - from bottom to the top - they must solve riddles of any kind in order not only to proceed and avoid traps, but also to understand the castle/fortress, its minions, how everything there works and so on.

Stonekeep is - in that respect, quite an example for me (although I must admit that I haven't played too many newer games).

A rather traditional approach worldwiode would be that the adventurers are hacking their ways through the fortress.
Another approach would be to negotiate between (groups of) minions, doing a favour here and there, trying to learn their languages, belief-systems etc. and exploit intrigues. That way would be possible without combat, and well executed it could imho be fascinating and exciting as well. I've seen that in part in Stonekeep.

I think, there is actually a hugehiatus between P&P role play and C-RPG role play.
And everyone tells me that P&P role play couldn't be sold. Or even properly executed via PC.


About my English: Today I have a "good day", so to say, but there are also days where my grammar just sucks. ;)

[wolfing]

Several people in the German Drakensang community (like me, I admit) were disappointed, because there was too much combat for them and too few riddles.


I just finished the game. I wouldn't say I'm "disappointed", although I would have liked less combats specially in the last part of the game. It could have been better, since there are 4 characters in the group, they could have made some puzzles requiring characters doing stuff in different places at the same time, for example, but I still enjoyed the game quite a lot. Could it have been better? definitely, but I wouldn't say I'm disappointed in the game.
Maybe since the first game has been well received (and having less expenses by using the same engine), they can incorporate more 'adventury' elements in the next games. Or they could take the worse but more common approach of making it more 'westernized' and just add full voice-acting, more flashy spells, more eye and hair color options and call it "full character customization" instead of adding anything to the actual gameplay, like puzzles and non-combat options. Hopefully they'll choose the first option.

[vanedor]

gah, puzzles. I dislike them because they usually feel entirelly out of place. Like the one with the fountain levers.

What I wish would be more in-game consequences for action like breaking a chest beside a merchant, more interaction with your party members, that they react in a more significant way depending of your action. More of them. A real day/night cycle that would make villages and cities feel more alive. That you could return there eventually after you have completed the missions in the area.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

To me, puzzles just belong to RPGs.

Or they could take the worse but more common approach of making it more 'westernized' and just add full voice-acting, more flashy spells, more eye and hair color options and call it "full character customization" instead of adding anything to the actual gameplay, like puzzles and non-combat options.

Depends on the world of Aventuria. They imho shouldn't do things that are inconsistent with this world.

We'll see the results in the prequel ...

[vanedor]

I don't see what playing a role "as in role-playing game" and solving puzzles have in common.

[Curunír]

gah, puzzles. I dislike them because they usually feel entirelly out of place. Like the one with the fountain levers.

What I wish would be more in-game consequences for action like breaking a chest beside a merchant, more interaction with your party members, that they react in a more significant way depending of your action. More of them. A real day/night cycle that would make villages and cities feel more alive. That you could return there eventually after you have completed the missions in the area.

I nearly completely disagree.

1. Proper puzzles belong into every RPG that contains at least some extended dungeon crawling section.
2. I can really live without having to reload after a failed lockpick / theft because of harsh consequences.
3. I am more than content that they left day/night cycles out of Drakensang and did a plot-related change of lighting instead. Day/night cycles may be fine for simulationist games, but in games with stronger narrative they can really disturb. Either dusk and dawn set in at (drama-wise) inappropiate moments and/or you have to wait for certains NPCs to appear or events to trigger because they are timed (boooring). Nah, I can live without daytime simulation, at least in a more narrative RPG like Drakensang.

[Thoth]

As someone else stated, I feel this game has too much combat as well. It's not that I don't like the combat system, but the camera and the characters running all over the place is extremely frustrating. I wonder if this game would have been a lot funner if it were turn-based? Regardless, I'm trudging through it, mostly because I do like the skill system.

The story is decent I suppose, but I really like most of the dialogue.

[Gorath]

You can always set the combat to auto-pause and assign targets manually if you don't like the way the AI controls your party. ;)

[Dasale]

I don't see what playing a role "as in role-playing game" and solving puzzles have in common.
I don't see what playing a role has in common with Computer RPGame, that's a common confusion coming from the tag.

[Dasale]

You can always set the combat to auto-pause and assign targets manually if you don't like the way the AI controls your party. ;)
Still not as tactical than if it would have been classical TB because you have only a very vague control on movements unlike in a classical TB. And the AI makes shine the NWN2 AI but well in Drakensang you just don't use it.

[RivianWitch]

As someone else stated, I feel this game has too much combat as well. It's not that I don't like the combat system, but the camera and the characters running all over the place is extremely frustrating. I wonder if this game would have been a lot funner if it were turn-based? Regardless, I'm trudging through it, mostly because I do like the skill system.

The story is decent I suppose, but I really like most of the dialogue.

Um, how more turn-based can you get? I've got mine on pause every turn, and it's like Fallout. It's even more turn-based than the D & D games, where you don't even get to pause the turns. I'm really curious as to how more turn-based one can make a game than what this one already is?

Quote @ Dasale:
Still not as tactical than if it would have been classical TB because you have only a very vague control on movements unlike in a classical TB. And the AI makes shine the NWN2 AI but well in Drakensang you just don't use it.

I have exact control over even the weapons my party members are going to use with every turn, who they are going to attack, using which spell/weapon/special ability. How more tactical can it get? The only single thing I cannot change or control in mid-combat, is the armour they wear; - otherwise I can control their every single movement.

Not that it's helping me much at the moment, as the amoebas are owning me... :p
Oh, and do you truly think that the AI is good in NWN2? The expansions, maybe...
EDIT: Oh, sorry, I see I misread what you said there... -well that is a little point we seem to agree on.

@Vanedor:
What I wish would be more in-game consequences for action like breaking a chest beside a merchant, more interaction with your party members, that they react in a more significant way depending of your action. More of them. A real day/night cycle that would make villages and cities feel more alive. That you could return there eventually after you have completed the missions in the area.
Hm, I can sort of agree with the first part of that, especially the party member interaction. I have to strongly disagree about the day/night cycle though, as I was cheering in delight that finally we have a game again that doesn't impose those terribly irritating night time pauses, where you just need to somehow fast forward time or go pick flowers while you wait for dawn...

[Thoth]

Um, how more turn-based can you get? I've got mine on pause every turn, and it's like Fallout. It's even more turn-based than the D & D games, where you don't even get to pause the turns. I'm really curious as to how more turn-based one can make a game than what this one already is?


I meant turn-based as in the original fallout with action points and all. I get annoyed with games that have you waiting for your character to attack in real time and I don't like all the auto pausing, probably because pausing makes everything all dark. I'm very picky and annoying. But I'm more frustrated with having everyone gang up on one enemy and then running all over the place trying to find a spot. The camera starts to freak out and everything. Oh well, I'm still enjoying the game.

[vanedor]

I don't know, a game where it's eternally 'noon' just break it for me. Seeing Ferdok night-life could be pretty interesting... and would make some quests (like those in the port) feel much more coherent. As for having to wait... in that sort of game, there's always a 'wait x hours' option so I really don't see how this might bother you.

[vanedor]

I don't see what playing a role has in common with Computer RPGame, that's a common confusion coming from the tag.

Because what's what the R stands in RPG?

Anyways, you play a role. Sure, it's not PnP but unless it's an action rpg, you still usually have moral/strategic decisions to take and you are able to put yourself in the skin of someone else, be it an elven maid or an evil necromancer.

[RivianWitch]

I meant turn-based as in the original fallout with action points and all. I get annoyed with games that have you waiting for your character to attack in real time and I don't like all the auto pausing, probably because pausing makes everything all dark. I'm very picky and annoying. But I'm more frustrated with having everyone gang up on one enemy and then running all over the place trying to find a spot. The camera starts to freak out and everything. Oh well, I'm still enjoying the game.

Oh, ok. ;)
I must agree with you about the non-pause option not being the hottest. That's why I set mine on pause every turn, and although it is more tedious, it's fun in non-repetitive situations. It can become tiresome, though I suppose. :-/

[RivianWitch]

I don't know, a game where it's eternally 'noon' just break it for me. Seeing Ferdok night-life could be pretty interesting... and would make some quests (like those in the port) feel much more coherent. As for having to wait... in that sort of game, there's always a 'wait x hours' option so I really don't see how this might bother you.

Well, I suppose night-time would be nice if they made some decent quests that would fit in to night time. I'm not a huge fan of Oblivion (although I was of Morrowind) ; but with some of the thieve's quests in Oblivion, for instance, you could pleasantly while away the night time hours... :)

[vanedor]

Turn based can be great... but when I walk in the dark forest and get attacked by wolves/boars/bears/bandits every two minutes, I'm pretty glad it's real time. That game would have to be totally modified to make turn based interesting.

[RivianWitch]

Turn based can be great... but when I walk in the dark forest and get attacked by wolves/boars/bears/bandits every two minutes, I'm pretty glad it's real time. That game would have to be totally modified to make turn based interesting.

Yeah, exactly what I said just now, -if you keep fighting relatively easy wolf-rats/wolves every 5 secs., it's probably less trouble just to set it back to continuous time for a bit.
Of course, you can also just remain in paused combat mode and keep pressing space bar and let the AI do it's own thing for the most part, but even that can become tedious.

So I think it's prety nice that you have three different combat settings for this game. ("Real-time" , "paused at start" , and "pause every turn" )

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I don't see what playing a role "as in role-playing game" and solving puzzles have in common.

I nearly completely disagree.

This is what I call a "cultural difference".

I assume that Curunìr might be of German origin, and he seems to see things differently than vanedor from Canada.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I don't see what playing a role has in common with Computer RPGame, that's a common confusion coming from the tag.

Where does the name come from, then ?

[wolfing]

Where does the name come from, then ?

It's all about history. First, the origin is RPG as in pen & paper RPG. In those games you are playing the role of an imaginary character. Rules used stats/skills to help with this 'roleplaying' (i.e. if your character had a low intelligence, you should play as if your character is dumb), plus it helped determine what your imaginary character could do in combat, but the essence of the game was in playing the role of a character.
Then came the computer games that tried to emulate those RPGs. Since they couldn't really act the part of the DM (dungeon master, the player that presents the 'universe' to the players), all they could do was to take the ruleset (stats, skills, etc) and just have a game with combat based on that. The 'RP' (for roleplaying) doesn't really mean much in most computer RPGs (cRPGs). It's more an indication that there are stats and skills in the game instead of it being pure adventure or pure action.
Not all cRPGs are like that though, the RPGs that are usually considered the best are the ones in which you can actually assume the role of a specific character, and the game allows you to make decisions close to what you would have done in a PnP (pen and paper) situation.

[Curunír]

This is what I call a "cultural difference".

I assume that Curunìr might be of German origin, and he seems to see things differently than vanedor from Canada.

In my opinion it doesn't have to do much with me being German or vanedor being Canadian. It's just a matter of personal taste. I'd agree that German players have a different taste than North American players in tendency, probably originating from some different "cultural background"*, but the taste of a particular individual is always an individual taste. Erm, if you know what I am trying to say with that...

PS: I am the same Curunìr that frequents the official Drakensang forums. (Surprise!)

EDIT: Actually, from the German boards I got the feeling that I am in the minority regarding pickpocketing consequences and such, many German players seemingly want those. On the other hand most American opinions I've read either don't mention it at all or are positive about the fact of not having to do save-reload orgies.

[Damian Mahadevan]

I think you have totally the wrong end of the stick with a few things there.
Firstly, the quest you are referring to there, "Blue Eyes" is completely a side quest which you don't have to do at all. Secondly, the "good" ending there, comes not because of sleeping with the vampires, but with not killing them. You can actually still get a "good" ending with that quest, without actually sleeping with the vampires, as long as you choose the blue-eyed girl's side against her brother.
The worst ending is killing the vampires and letting the brother take the girl.

All that the game is trying to say there, is that what makes someone a monster, is not what he/she looks like on the outside but what he she is by nature, which is a strong theme in the books, and is also echoed when you have to decide whether to kill Vincent or not (a point you might not even have reached yet, seeing as you are still so early in the game). In fact, you are still so early in the game, that you have not really started seeing the consequences of your choices yet. I really can't see how you can make such sweeping statements about a game you have not played yet.

Let me use an earlier choice in the game as an example: the choice between whether you let Abigail live or not. This has NOTHING to do with whether you sleep with her or not. You can sleep with her and let her die, or not sleep with her and choose to have the mob kill her, or vice versa; - the one choice does not influence the other choice, so I totally disagree with your statement that the "sleeping with the woman choice" is ever the right or wrong choice.
The consequences do not come from whether you sleep with them or not - that aspect is totally irrelevant to the rest of the game, but from whether you choose to let people/"monsters" live or die.

The only "sex"/romance choice that has any bearing later on in the game, is whether you choose Triss or Shani, and that does not influence the outcome of the game, it only influences which one will act as your companion.

I see. Maybe one of these days i will give the witcher another go.

[Dhruin]

Good heavens, you've barely played it. The sex cards are silly but they simply don't impact the rest of the narrative. Anyway, back to the DraSa...

[Damian Mahadevan]

I didnt mean that i had to get the sex cards, rather that the path you take in trying to get the sex cards gives the best ending. Even if you choose not to get them. Is there even one ending where you get the better ending where you dont try to favour the girl?

[Dasale]

Where does the name come from, then ?

From the inspiration of P&P that is the origin of CRPG. Alas unlike in P&P there's no human master to make it more than a game, ie to allow a bit of real role playing.

Just look 1st CRPGs it's just an attempt to implement base mechanism, classes, fights, dungeons, nothing more and that's not role playing. As CRPG became more modern they add more story but not role playing.

[Dasale]

Not all cRPGs are like that though, the RPGs that are usually considered the best are the ones in which you can actually assume the role of a specific character, and the game allows you to make decisions close to what you would have done in a PnP (pen and paper) situation.
It's quite fake because choices are too limited and don't let place for role playing, and that's quite different with a good P&P human master.

[Thoth]

It's quite fake because choices are too limited and don't let place for role playing, and that's quite different with a good P&P human master.

Yeah, it would take quite the dedicated developer to try and come up with the multitude of choices different players would make. I suppose CRPGs will ever come close to the old pen and paper human game master.

[Dasale]

I have exact control over even the weapons my party members are going to use with every turn, who they are going to attack, using which spell/weapon/special ability. How more tactical can it get? The only single thing I cannot change or control in mid-combat, is the armour they wear; - otherwise I can control their every single movement.

You should play a real TB game like Temple of Elemental Evil, each step and action point is or can be carefully balanced.

I didn't wrote Drakensang wasn't tactical, but less than a true TB because you don't have a precise control on movements and in fact it's even hard to predict.

For example you attack a monster from one side but the PC decide to go to the other side and then attract something you didn't want.

[Dasale]

Oh, and do you truly think that the AI is good in NWN2?

You can really let magic users do a good job (when your could be excellent) and the setup of the different level of magic use (with more or less spare) allows lower the sparing for a special fight and higher it for more casual occasion. You still have to choose by yourself what spells they'll memorize and there's certainly some that the AI won't use well.

The point is I never seen any better in any CRPG.

[Dasale]

Anyways, you play a role. Sure, it's not PnP but unless it's an action rpg, you still usually have moral/strategic decisions to take and you are able to put yourself in the skin of someone else, be it an elven maid or an evil necromancer.

The good affair! That's just boring role playing because the computer don't let you enough options. At best you fit to a planned role, not fun. No surprise most players don't even attempt it and play their own role ie do morale or greedy choices how they feel it not to play a role.

[vanedor]

It let you play a certain number of options. Be it enough or not, it's just a matter of personnal taste. Sure, the guy who want to play a childrens killer Ranger of Baal might find it difficult...

[RivianWitch]

You should play a real TB game like Temple of Elemental Evil, each step and action point is or can be carefully balanced.

I didn't wrote Drakensang wasn't tactical, but less than a true TB because you don't have a precise control on movements and in fact it's even hard to predict.

For example you attack a monster from one side but the PC decide to go to the other side and then attract something you didn't want.

I played Temple of Elemental Evil for a tiny bit a longish time ago, but I think I got distracted by other games, and never really got into the game enough to really do much combat. Once I've tired of Drakensang I'll re-install TOEE and have a look, to understand exactly what you prefer. I suppose if you want it to be as precise as exactly which bodypart (a la Fallout 3 ) , and from which angle you want to attack, then Drakensang isn't quite that precise..... But most of the TB games I've played (granted, not all that many) aren't quite that precise either.

I'll check out TOEE, though.

[RivianWitch]

I didnt mean that i had to get the sex cards, rather that the path you take in trying to get the sex cards gives the best ending. Even if you choose not to get them. Is there even one ending where you get the better ending where you dont try to favour the girl?

I moved this discussion to the Witcher board, and replied under "Sex card criticism" thread.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Personally, i wasn't that happy with the turn-based approach in Drakensang. After a few tries I gave up, because it simply didn't satisfy me. Plus, it was so much different to me (matter of taste ?) than the old ROA games (and TOEE as well, by the way).

Therefore I only played real-time, with using the pause only to give the cvharacters potions or change weapons or spells or so.

[Curunír]

Personally, i wasn't that happy with the turn-based approach in Drakensang. After a few tries I gave up, because it simply didn't satisfy me. Plus, it was so much different to me (matter of taste ?) than the old ROA games (and TOEE as well, by the way).

Therefore I only played real-time, with using the pause only to give the cvharacters potions or change weapons or spells or so.

Well, I basically like Drakensang's implementation of RTwP, although it has a few significant problems:

1. Movement, which doesn't work too well in Auto-Pause every round mode.
2. Most combats (the filler ones) don't provide the challenge to let the system shine, they really need difficulty levels for the next game.
3. It will take you a lot of time, if you (like me) fight every fight in round mode, combined with point 2 that isn't necessarily a good thing.

That lead me to the opinion that Drakensang requires significantly less but harder battles to be a real enjoyment for tactical players.
Oh, and there is simply too much alchemy stuff. I usually play with the house rule "avoid potions at all cost" to keep the game challenging. But then fights like that against Kastan (non-sneaking variant) or the necromancer really require careful thought and are real fun.

[Grandor Dragon]

I did the same thing. I am absolutely pleased with turn-based real-time with pause.

[Turjan]

Alrik mentioned further above something about why he thinks Germans have so many criticisms regarding Drakensang. Of the cases I know, those people mainly criticize the game because it doesn't really follow proper TDE (DSA) rules. As the latter are mostly unknown outside of Germany, this part of the criticism will lack there. You can't complain that the game doesn't capture the feel of DSA if you don't know it ;). I see this as an advantage in my case: I can play without that baggage.

I'm still in the middle of the game, so I won't give any final verdict about it. Up to now, my biggest complaint about the combat system is that the AI always gangs up on your weakest character first and does so by running through your melee fighters. Through! Those are the moments where I could kick the game.

I knew it would be a railroad from reviews, so there's no disappointed expectation in this regard.

[Dasale]

I played Temple of Elemental Evil for a tiny bit a longish time ago, but I think I got distracted by other games, and never really got into the game enough to really do much combat. Once I've tired of Drakensang I'll re-install TOEE and have a look, to understand exactly what you prefer.

You are jumping quite fast to conclusion, I just wrote true TB like ToEE was more tactical than the mixed system in Drakensang. :biggrin: I think both system can work and have its own plus but are both highly dependent of the tuned design of each fight and of the difficulty level setup.


I suppose if you want it to be as precise as exactly which bodypart (a la Fallout 3 ) , and from which angle you want to attack, then Drakensang isn't quite that precise..... But most of the TB games I've played (granted, not all that many) aren't quite that precise either.No ToEE isn't like that, well I don't remember that at least.

Let me give one example: @ is the PC/NPC I control, C are companions, M and N are the ugly monsters:


C N
@ M N
C N

Then I decide going to close attack M with P and I expect:

C N
@M N
C N

But instead because the game compute that' there's not enough place or something I get instead:

C N
M@ N
C N

That is then too close to N monsters and then I get this garbage:

C N
M@N
C N


That's one example, I could provide other where you get only vague control of your movements.

[RivianWitch]

Heh, cleverly done diagrams Dasale.

Hm, so I think what you are saying, is that the movement seems to be too random, especially from the enemies side? Ok, well maybe it doesn't bother me quite that much because I tend to play action Rpg's at times, an there its usually just a mixed-up mobfest.

But, on the other hand, I rather enjoy turn-based Strategy games. If you haven't tried out King's Bounty yet, I think you might just enjoy it. It's the typical grid-based TB combat, but there's supposed to be RPG elements as well. I started it a while back, but Drakensang came out in the meantime...

In any case, of course in that kiind of game you get to control your own, and premeditate the enemies' exact positions in advance.

[Turjan]

Hm, so I think what you are saying, is that the movement seems to be too random, especially from the enemies side? .
The diagram is good, but I want to add that the movement is not random. The more intelligent monsters will always gang up on the character with the lowest defense values first. You don't even have to look at your character sheet: Just look at the sequence in which the monsters eliminate your characters. The annoying point is that you have no means whatsoever to prevent this. The tanks cannot block the monsters from surrounding the mage or rogue.

[vanedor]

Up to now, my biggest complain about the combat system is that the AI always gangs up on your weakest character first and does so by running through your melee fighters. Through! Those are the moments where I could kick the game.

I cannot agree more!

[RivianWitch]

Ok, but AI that makes for 'clever' enemies, is actually good AI, isn't it? ;)

Ok, ok, before I get thrown with rotten tomatoes, I agree that it is quite infuriating!

[Dasale]

The annoying point is that you have no means whatsoever to prevent this. The tanks cannot block the monsters from surrounding the mage or rogue.
During mother rat fight I don't think I ever get 3 wild rats on a same character when I win the fight. There are ways to lower this but that's tough to control.

Don't let weaker characters attack, move them back, attack coming rats from far with the fighters, I suspect that summons attacks are translated in some way by more smart monsters as attack from the summon caster, so don't prepare summon and use it with care. Anticipate a lot, start react when first monster is seen and don't wait the auto pause.

[Dasale]

Hm, so I think what you are saying, is that the movement seems to be too random, especially from the enemies side?
No, in the sample I tried explain the point was that I didn't want go too close to monsters far from the fight. Then attack the monster "M" and expected my character attack and stay on same side but instead it goes on the other side of "M" to attack it, then enough close to N monsters to attract them.

That's just a sample, during some fights, anyway N monsters will come, like the black rats. But not eostuff for example.

[Dasale]

Turn based can be great... but when I walk in the dark forest and get attacked by wolves/boars/bears/bandits every two minutes, I'm pretty glad it's real time. That game would have to be totally modified to make turn based interesting.
Yes, TB game need to lower a lot the number of fights. Fights can last longer and will (and then detract some type of players) but certainly not have too many.

Anyway Drakensang abuse of little repetitive fights, as did The Witcher in fact and as didn't Gothic 2 NOTR. Still for me despite the apparency the Deep under Ferdok dungeon is quite good.

Monsters seems repetitive and are visually but in fact aren't so much. The dungeon is organized to have a well build rising tension and difficulty.

The fights are different, there are some themes and some traps, like the first massive assault, few attack from behind, black rat packs using different strategy against you, and so on. Some fights get few repetition but that's always a nice trick to repeat a little a same fight because it let the player learn manage better and better this fight.

It's five levels each are small levels with some subtle difference to make them feel a bit different. There are in fact 4 sort of rats and the final boss. The final battle is excellent. Ok I did the dungeon in three times but then didn't find it repetitive.

But well I agree it is missing few secrets and some more monster diversity. This design despite good made the very common error to put focus too much on a theme of a dungeon at the price of more diversity.

[JDR13]

I see. Maybe one of these days i will give the witcher another go.


I finally decided to give The Witcher another chance starting a few days ago. I didn't like it at all when I played the demo of the original release last year, I'm not exactly sure why, it just didn't grab me.

Let me just say that I finally understand what all the fuss is about. The Witcher truly is a great game, maybe even "classic", although I still have a long way to go before I can give my final opinion. If you're truly a fan of RPGs, and you don't play The Witcher, then you are cheating yourself out of a great experience.

[wolfing]

I finally decided to give The Witcher another chance starting a few days ago. I didn't like it at all when I played the demo of the original release last year, I'm not exactly sure why, it just didn't grab me.

Let me just say that I finally understand what all the fuss is about. The Witcher truly is a great game, maybe even "classic", although I still have a long way to go before I can give my final opinion. If you're truly a fan of RPGs, and you don't play The Witcher, then you are cheating yourself out of a great experience.

I didn't really like it. Guess it's the fact it's an action/RPG. I didn't see myself fighting any differently or using different strategies down the road. Maybe the whole single-character twitch RPG genre is not for me (although I did enjoy Oblivion a lot, maybe because I could play as a pure mage there, unlike games like Gothic or the Witcher). Very different from Drakensang, there's no twitch involved and it's a party of characters, just my type of games.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

That lead me to the opinion that Drakensang requires significantly less but harder battles to be a real enjoyment for tactical players.

This has also been mentioned several times in the official forums (among other things).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Up to now, my biggest complaint about the combat system is that the AI always gangs up on your weakest character first and does so by running through your melee fighters. Through! Those are the moments where I could kick the game.

There are several scripts within the game, I read, one of the worst is to attack every magic user first, which can be seen the the Ferdok Brewery cellars.

[Thoth]

There are several scripts within the game, I read, one of the worst is to attack every magic user first, which can be seen the the Ferdok Brewery cellars.

Yeah, I've been having a problem with the enemies charging past my fighter in order to attack Gladys who I try to keep in the back. Pretty frustrating seeing enemies run straight through your characters. I guess the good ol' strategy of choke points doesn't work in this game...

[Curunír]

This has also been mentioned several times in the official forums (among other things).

I know, especially as I am probably the person who mentioned it most repeatedly. :biggrin:

[Turjan]

I guess the good ol' strategy of choke points doesn't work in this game...
Indeed. It's quite the opposite, actually, because your characters are harder to move to places where you want them at choke points.

[ToddMcF2002]

I don't thing DSang is a bad game, but it sort of bores me. I hate the magic gates and crates that can't be unlocked one minute and then "presto" a quest gives me access. Interesting skills such as alchemy and animal lore are pointless because all the end products are prevalent. The game is very linear, hub and spoke progression very much like NWN OC.

I'm still playing it, but it barely registers on my interest meter. I does make me want an ale though ;)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I know, especially as I am probably the person who mentioned it most repeatedly. :biggrin:

Very likely ;) , but I haven't been in the forums for weeks now (just dropping in every now and then, on irregular basis).

[Grandor Dragon]

I'm still playing it, but it barely registers on my interest meter. I does make me want an ale though ;)

:)

Was anyone else surprised at hw much the game focuses on the Ferdok beer? "By the Gods, I get it, it's good beer!"

[Alrik Fassbauer]

It's kind of an insider's joke, I guess, because the beer of Ferdok is one of the very, very best within Aventuria !

For promotional reasons dtp even let stein mugs be printed with the ferdok beer logo !

Plus, all know that dwarves LOVE beer ... ;)

[Turjan]

Was anyone else surprised at hw much the game focuses on the Ferdok beer? "By the Gods, I get it, it's good beer!"
It's probably the only remarkable thing the city of Ferdok possesses. What else should they talk about :D?

[Thoth]

I wish they'd have more then one type of beer for role-playings sake. I saw the Special Dark... but that's it so far. I'd be bored out of my mind in a city with only one type of beer...

[Dasale]

There's also a dwarven beer, perhaps Ducal street bar or it's in Avenstrue.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well, the Kosh is very patriotic. Of course they only drink the finest beer ! ;)

But apart from that the Kosh area is also known for the finest brweries in general.

Only that the Ferdok brewery is the greatest. ;)

[wolfing]

I wish they'd have more then one type of beer for role-playings sake. I saw the Special Dark... but that's it so far. I'd be bored out of my mind in a city with only one type of beer...

LOL why's that? Where I'm from there's only one type of beer (Pielsen). I don't remember being bored! (In fact, now that I live in the US, with so many beers... I still usually just drink the same type)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well, to have a variety of beers in Ferdok would actually add to the realism ... But I tend to believe that the developers just didn't have time for that ...

[Thrasher]

You mean gameplay features trumped superficial play house features?

How disappointing.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

No. Rather money vs. time. I thought you would already know how many things had been cut because of lack of money ...

[Thrasher]

That made no sense.

[Thoth]

Jesus Christ, combat truly seems to be terrible in this game, or maybe I just suck.

I'm fighting the last phase of that nordo-whatever the f$%@ it's supposed to be and it's like some Terminator that doesn't stop going after my spell caster, running through my other characters and shit. WTF is with this game? Then this idiot finishes off all my other characters except for rhulana, but neither of these clowns can land a hit so they just endlessly miss each other all the while both keep regenerating so no one dies... has anyone else had this craziness?

[Turjan]

Not sure which fight you refer to, but I know the situation. If both duelists have good defensive talents (mainly dodge and parry), hits are difficult. I gave all chars good defensive talents, and it helped a lot. The point is that you need a second attacker to bypass a good parry. Attacks from behind don't get any parry.

[Dasale]

I wonder what fight is this.

[wolfing]

I wonder what fight is this.

Nordo-whatever? hmm...
The difficult fights I remember in the game were (generic names, no spoilers I hope)
- The first fight against the 2 dudes (if you try without a companion)
- Mother rat
- The tree (if you don't fight with some strategy)
- Amazon quest
- The last fight under the dwarven city (ahh, I think this may be the fight he's referring to?)

If this is the one, what I did was run away all the way back to the start of the hallway (you disabled the trap, didn't you?), that way the 'adds' didn't come

- parts of the mountain path
- final fight

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Jesus Christ, combat truly seems to be terrible in this game, or maybe I just suck.

I'm fighting the last phase of that nordo-whatever the f$%@ it's supposed to be and it's like some Terminator that doesn't stop going after my spell caster, running through my other characters and shit. WTF is with this game? Then this idiot finishes off all my other characters except for rhulana, but neither of these clowns can land a hit so they just endlessly miss each other all the while both keep regenerating so no one dies... has anyone else had this craziness?

Is this on the first castle you visit ?

It is really a tough fight, but manageable.

I did it so that I kind of "buffed" (is that the term ?) my own characters, plus put available points into weakening spells/strengthening spells and tried to use weapons which ggenerate wounds. (Although I don't remember anymore whether this enemy was immune to wounds or not ?)

This is one of the few fights where I sdwitched over to turn-based, because even the tiniest step must be plannd thoroughly, healking spells must come out really fast, and potions also.

Remember that you can use grindstones to make your weapons sharper for a certain number of rounds !

Plus, if a fight contains allies - try to protect them ! Because they can attract attention - like "tank" or what the right term is ? Meanwhile other partymembers can attack the back of the enemy, for example, where he cannot parry.

(As a sidenote, Rondra frowns upon beating the back of an enemy ! Because there is no honour in it !)

[Dasale]

Nordo-whatever? hmm...
The difficult fights I remember in the game were (generic names, no spoilers I hope)
- The first fight against the 2 dudes (if you try without a companion)
- Mother rat
- The tree (if you don't fight with some strategy)
- Amazon quest
- The last fight under the dwarven city (ahh, I think this may be the fight he's referring to?)

If this is the one, what I did was run away all the way back to the start of the hallway (you disabled the trap, didn't you?), that way the 'adds' didn't come

- parts of the mountain path
- final fight
For me those fights was tough too, sometimes more than one or two you quote:

The fights against the 4 fire elementals.
Some fights on the road to the non ruined castle.
The fight against the lich.
The final long fight of the merchants.
The fight against the big skeleton, is it already in your list?
The fight against the big lizard.
The final fight of Tallon.
The fight against the moorbridge summoner, until I applied the right (classical) tactic.
The fight against the wolf and the bear.
Hey even the first fight against two wild boar.

There's certainly a few more, I just forget them. Only very few of them stuck me few or more.

[Thoth]

LOL sorry, I wrote that when I was REALLY frustrated. It's the fight with the orc, turned lizard man, turned super lizard man. Traldar fights with you, but can't be selected. It's his castle I guess. Anyways, I beat him, because I finally remembered to actually cast some useful spells such as Lightning Find You, and suddenly it was the easiest battle ever.

But yeah, Rhulana and that guy fought forever, each would occasionally do 3 or 4 damage, but it'd heal. This game probably shouldn't allow you to heal automatically during battle. It doesn't really make sense and it should probably be left to magic and healing skill.

Sorry for being so vague before :blush:

[Turjan]

For me those fights was tough too, sometimes more than one or two you quote
Heh, I see that everyone has his own difficult fights. Which is fine, because it shows that the game has at least some diversity in its fights. For example, I found the final fight of the game easy.
My most problematic fights were the final fight in the ruined Blood Mountain castle (after having botched the "sneaking" quest) and stuff involving fire. The fight against the four fire elementals was one that I skipped: I snatched the key and ran away.

[Dasale]

Ha this fight (Toth fight), I don't remember it well. Yes it wasn't that easy too. I think my team die once here.

EDIT: Pfiou if I knew I could skip the fire elementals I would apply! In the fights listed, by wolfing or me, there's quite many my team didn't die at all so the result is you don't find them that difficult. Those I found very difficult are quite few in fact. Those I found rude there's quite more. For example I fought against 4 giant crabs, dam perhaps the tougher fight, in fact I give up try.

[Gorath]

Jesus Christ, combat truly seems to be terrible in this game, or maybe I just suck.

I'm fighting the last phase of that nordo-whatever the f$%@ it's supposed to be and it's like some Terminator that doesn't stop going after my spell caster, running through my other characters and shit. WTF is with this game? Then this idiot finishes off all my other characters except for rhulana, but neither of these clowns can land a hit so they just endlessly miss each other all the while both keep regenerating so no one dies... has anyone else had this craziness?

1. This is by far the weirdest post I've ever seen on our forum.
2. Yes, you probably suck at combat in Drakensang. ;)

[wolfing]

Ha this fight (Toth fight), I don't remember it well. Yes it wasn't that easy too. I think my team die once here.

EDIT: Pfiou if I knew I could skip the fire elementals I would apply! In the fights listed, by wolfing or me, there's quite many my team didn't die at all so the result is you don't find them that difficult. Those I found very difficult are quite few in fact. Those I found rude there's quite more. For example I fought against 4 giant crabs, dam perhaps the tougher fight, in fact I give up try.

Some of the ones you mentioned I just forgot about them, others were not that difficult in my case. In the case of the fire elementals, since my character was an elementalist, his fire elemental was immune to their 'fire shields', so it lasted quite a while against one or 2 of them while the group concentrated on the other stuff. Still tough, but forgettable. So what makes some fights 'memorably difficult' depends on factors like your party composition and just plain luck (and of course, use of different strategies)

[Dasale]

Luck can definitely be a factor, I still remember the first time I did the battle against Saverok with the secondary goal to protect the two "diplomats", I win the fight and save them both, then request the magic user to teleport me and then regret to have act so fast so load back the game, last save was before the battle... I never again succeed save them both! :biggrin:

Sometimes because you don't think to apply the right tactic you die and die until you remember to use the simple good way. I had one case in Drakensang, for a tactic I applied in plenty CRPG, plenty times:

It's against the summoner magic user. I cannot count the number of CRPG where rush to kill the magic user is the simple tactic that changes all. But for some reason I took a long time before to use it in this fight.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

It's against the summoner magic user. I cannot count the number of CRPG where rush to kill the magic user is the simple tactic that changes all. But for some reason I took a long time before to use it in this fight.

The funny thing is that in Drakensang some enemies use this tactic, too. ;) (Mother Rat & the cellar.)

P.S. : @Thoth, could you put the first part of your latest post into spoiler tags ?

[Dasale]

Lol yes one more reason that should have make me think of it faster than I did! And :

Another example of this tactic is also the fight quoted by toth. With a variation more complicate but still.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes, you are right. :) ;)