Drakensang gamespot review a sad day for hardcore RPGers

[GothicGothicness]

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/drakensangthedarkeye/index.html?tag=gallery_summary;title

In the review they are complaining about "Too many stats" and "too hard to learn"

That made it clear that gamespot is writing reviews for mainstream gamers...............

[zakhal]

Its more of a niche game that divides peoples opinions greatly than one designed for all and none specifically. Critic average is 73% while users give it 80%. Some groups of players find the game good as is shown by the gamespot user reviews:

Delightful old-school RPG 85%
Recommended by 6 users.

Not perfect by anyone's standards but if you are the target group then you might have some fun with it.

Also the game sold for 23€ as new so its not full-price even.

[txa1265]

Typical - they'll give GTA4 for PC which was released fundamentally broken and with 10-year old gameplay a 112/10, but 'meh' to this. Apparently they didn't bribe well enough ...

[Prime Junta]

That made it clear that gamespot is writing reviews for mainstream gamers...............

No. You don't say?

[Dhruin]

Well, in all fairness, GameSpot is writing for a mainstream audience. It's not a good review but it probably isn't that far off for their average readership.

[Corwin]

Come back Deslock, all is forgiven!! :)

[GothicGothicness]

That made it clear that gamespot is writing reviews for mainstream gamers...............
No. You don't say?

If it is a hardcore fighting game for example with a lot of complicated moves, they would add it as something good!, I guess I should have written they are reviewing the party based CRPG genre ( which in my opinion SHOULD be full of stats and rules and not be simple) like it is mainstream action game.

[wolfing]

If it is a hardcore fighting game for example with a lot of complicated moves, they would add it as something good!, I guess I should have written they are reviewing the party based CRPG genre ( which in my opinion SHOULD be full of stats and rules and not be simple) like it is mainstream action game.

I agree, but then I learned long ago to ignore the numerical score and just read the review. Many times (in fact, probably most of the times?) I find that a game's "problems" are actually something I prefer or don't care about. When they say 'game lacks multiplayer', that probably takes 5 or 10 points off the numerical score, but since I don't care about multiplayer, I ignore that comment. Same with 'bad voice acting' for example, or 'game starts slow' or 'game is difficult' (in this particular case, I find that what they don't consider difficult like jumping sequences and memorizing combos are the things that are difficult for me, while learning the stats/skills and using strategy is not)

[blatantninja]

The reviews on Amazon are almost all glowing.

One question though (and this blends in with a discussion on the D & D RPG thread), when did heavy stats and rules, etc. become such an important part of cRPGs? (I realize that they have been a part of PnP RPG's for a long time) I can't remember any RPGs prior to 2000 that were that heavy in stats and rules. The rules may have been heavy on some of the implementations of 2E AD&D, but the stats/abilities/feats certainly were not particularly robust (nothing like the 3E and 3.5E implemenations).

If anything, this trend towards more streamlined stats and rules seems like it is getting back to the way cRPG's existed for most of the genre's life. And, if it lets developers spend more time on developing the story (though sadly it seems most will just spend more time on graphics), that sits well with me.

[Grandor Dragon]

What is Deslock doing nowadays? And why did he leave Gamespot?

[Turjan]

In the review they are complaining about "Too many stats" and "too hard to learn"

That made it clear that gamespot is writing reviews for mainstream gamers...............
To be fair, if the manual sucked less, this would not be mentioned that often. As it is, it's mostly useless. Most statements in the manual are incredibly wishy washy and don't really spill the bones. Yes, you can find most of the information in the game ̶ somewhere ̶ but it's hard to get an overview in the beginning. That's why you already start picking your character pretty much blindly.

This doesn't change anything with the point that the review sounds somehow helpless. The game is not that complicated, as you will figure out after the first confusion.

[skavenhorde]

I can see where people who don't know anything about Arkania would be confused about some of the stats. I didn't have a problem figuring out the mechanics of the game because of my Realms of Arkania experience. It helped a lot that I still have the manuals to those games as well. Although a few things have changed, the basic rules were the same.

Just imagine if Drakensang had a chance meter when upgrading skills like in ROA. There was always a chance that you failed to upgrade a skill even when investing points in it. It would be hilarious how Gamespot would react to that. :D

[redman5427]

Quests are many and feature myriad goals that run the gamut from keep-busy jobs such as killing a white wolf and tracking down a stolen diadem to cleaning out a crypt of the undead and solving riddling rhymes. Just about the only touch of originality comes from the main plotline's focus on dragons, which at one time ruled the world before a scaly civil war.


Notice these are all early quests making me wonder how far the reviewer went in the game. The game gets much better the farther you go and lately there is nothing out with this kind of depth. I didn't find the voices offensive at all especially compared to some of the other RPGs in thelast year so I think he was way off in that regard also. But, a 7 score is actually a good mark from that site.

[Gorath]

What a weak review.

I'm not surprised though. It was clear that sooner or later one of the pro sites would do their usual spiel of phoning in their review for such a non mainstream game. This time it was Gamespot, next time it will be somebody else.

I wonder why people keep reading those sites.

[wolfing]

Notice these are all early quests making me wonder how far the reviewer went in the game. The game gets much better the farther you go and lately there is nothing out with this kind of depth. I didn't find the voices offensive at all especially compared to some of the other RPGs in thelast year so I think he was way off in that regard also. But, a 7 score is actually a good mark from that site.
The last sentence should be ... "But, a 7 score is actually a good mark from that site for a game that didn't pay them money or gave them exclusive interviews"

[Gorath]

Notice these are all early quests making me wonder how far the reviewer went in the game.

It's still the same answer it has been for years:
As far as the review budget brought him. ;) If he gets, say, 350$ a freelancer can spend ca. two days on playing and writing if he doesn't live in an expensive area.

[Corwin]

Yes, compare that to what we get paid here and you'll understand why our reviews are so much better!! :cm:

[Dhruin]

Desslock went on to PC Gamer. As far as I know (and he does call through here from time to time), he isn't writing much these days. Keep in mind he has a day job (lawyer).

[Grandor Dragon]

Thanks Dhruin. I always loved his articles.

[Gorath]

As I understood him on QT3 he has no plans to continue his game writing career.

[Dasale]

I read fully the review, almost. And I don't feel it is neither targeted to a wide public nor made from a lazy guy who didn't play the game and copy another review.

I agree it's quite possible he didn't play the full game but it seems he played quite a lot of it:

The first clue is in the good points he quotes: "Tremendous amount of gameplay for the $30 price" and "Large, deep fantasy gameworld". I don't remember to have seen that so often in the few big sites reviews of the game.
The second clue are the snapshot, made with a character heroe I don't remember to have see in other series of snapshots and those snapshots go quite far, at least up to Moonbridge.


Ha also brings many good points I don't remember to have seen often in the big sites reviews of the game:

Sharp visuals packed with little details that bring the story to life.
Documentation and in-game tips are plentiful
Serious role-players will love this attention to detail
A lot of attention has been paid to fine details that establish a feeling of venturing into real places.
Larger-than-life RPG epics like Drakensang are few and far between these days.
a fairly captivating adventure that delivers most of what old-time RPG fans want and expect.

It's quite a lot of serious good points that he has collected in his review.

Now about the negative points:

A long complain about the controls. This guy isn't so wrong, he didn't catch the right control scheme which isn't so common in similar games, CRPG or shooters. I'm surprised it plays so long the game without to find the right tricks, but if he does I'm not surprised by his hire. Myself I never played before a game with such controls and played at least 10 hours, perhaps more without to find by myself how manage it. Only the forum gave me the right tricks. Could be stupid but tht can happen.
A long complain about rules and character class management complexity. Again frankly I got the exact same feeling during the first hours, the point is mainly coming from the confrontation with a totally new system, and with many little original design choice. If it has been a blockbuster target he should have a much deeper in game documentation and tutorial to ge over this. It's unfair but also it's a part of its additional fun.
About dialogs he quote: "excessive shouting and exaggerated hand gestures." Well he is right, admit it. The point is that it's not a real flaw, more a chosen style. But he could have dislike it. It's funny that in my language version this has been tuned down a bit for the vocals but after to have play the English version I felt the English choice was better because voices was matching better the animation, same exaggeration and well done if you admit the approach.
About story he wrotes: "compiled from so many fantasy novels, movies, and games...stereotypical hero who starts off as a nobody...." Well he isn't wrong and brings some solid arguments in the review and later point that: "Just about the only touch of originality comes from the main plotline's focus on dragons, which at one time ruled the world before a scaly civil war." Clearly this reviewer isn't an idiot and didn't play fully the game but quite a lot.


Now there's the ugly title for the review, that doesn't match at all the review content, I wouldn't be surprised that he didn't wrote this title.

And the conclusion is a little rude but match the review and ends with a very positive note: "Larger-than-life RPG epics like Drakensang are few and far between these days. The story and quests are generic, and the character management is unnecessarily complex, but this is still a fairly captivating adventure that delivers most of what old-time RPG fans want and expect."

Ok after to have play the full game, to have get some advices about controls and for being close to be a hardcore CRPG fan, I have some different point of view and feel he is been unfair by not have quote some important qualities like the quality of many companion dialogs, or the interesting fights design. Or to not have quote some important weakness as some wrong choices about opponent diversity in some places. Still quite a solid review from a serious guy even if not a CRPG fan.

[Cm]

I got the feeling the reviewer is not that well versed in playing many if any of the older D&D games thus his lack of insite caused his negative experience in character building. The game does assume some level of knowledge about stats and building your character which would have taken pages and pages to explain.

[Dasale]

Do you really feel Dark eyes rules similar to D&D rules? Myself I see them as deeply different. I don't think the game assumes players already know Dark eyes rules because there's many in game information.

But as I read in another review, for such a new system for most players, it should has a little tutorial encyclopedia, including at least a collection of the general advices you get as tip when the tutorial option is activated.

Other than that there isn't much to do, the system has some depth and complexity, like complicate rules for each spells instead of having a global system, so in all cases it takes time to get used to it.

But I agree that the reviewer was probably lacking a bit of more experience in CRPG, nothing sure, but quite possible.

[Ergonpandilus]

Too many rules

LOL :D

Compared to D&D rules, especially AD&D (Baldur's Gate), TDE rules are much(!) easier, but equally comprehensive.

- There's no saving throw.
- No different elemental magic resistance (just MR)
- No need to check tables to get attribute bonuses
- One or two formulas really (ex. (attr1+attr2+attr3)/5 )
- Only two dices(!)
- 1 attack per round and it doesn't change
- And list goes on...

It's just that The Dark Eye rules are NOT familiar for most of us, but playing DS at the first time, I felt like playing Baldur's Gate at the first time. I felt confused, but curious. ;)

[Thrasher]

Desslock went on to PC Gamer. As far as I know (and he does call through here from time to time), he isn't writing much these days. Keep in mind he has a day job (lawyer).

A lawyer? That explains his odd defensive posts on the Codex.

I'm already missing his writing in PCGamer, compared to the shallow hacks they hire out now.

[xSamhainx]

Last couple PC Gamers I havent seen Desslock around, that was the final straw, I didnt do my renewal this time. Ive been a subscriber for like a decade, the magazine has just gotten thinner and thinner and more packed w/ ads - it just isnt something that I look forward to anymore. They arent giving me any kind of a break on the subscription price as it's wittled down more and more, so screw them. I can get everything I need online.

Gamespot however, I still like. Ive been a subscriber for just as long, and I'll keep my subscription going indefinitely. It's a pretty vast resource of information and archived, fast downloads for just about every game, and I dont care what anyone says - in my opinion they have a lot of good reviews. Ive played lots of games theyve reviewed, and while I dont agree w/ everything, Ive came away agreeing w/ a lot of em. As far as Drakensang review goes, they gave it a 7 or "good" score - you guys are acting like they called it utter trash or something. A "sad day" over that review? Pleeeeze

He basically saying it's for the dedicated RPG fans who are used to (and indeed like) the quirky and complicated rpgs, not just anyone who wants to drop into a AAA-style easy action rpg w/ one skill tree and a class, launch the game and go.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well, there is a hiatus among TDE fans about the complexity of the rules.

The most of all - from both sides - agree that the amount of complexity reached in the 4th edition will most likely scare "newcomers" away. Especially beginners need a much, much more lighter system, almost everyone agrees.

Me, I'm a member of that faction complaining that the 4th and 4.1 editions have become far too complex. At the RPC there was a discuussion culminating just in this question.

Even one of Ulisses, the current holders of the TDE license told this example I have read myself from the official Ulisses forums:

Upon asking "what should I buy to learn TDE", one was replied with: "Buy the basic hardcover book."

Now, at least one in that forum wrote something like that: "No, that's rubbish. He should instead buy the Ways of the Sword, Ways of the Gods, Ways of the Heroes, Ways of the Magic books ..." Well, that's 4-5 books for approx. 30 Euros each. FOR A BEGINNER ???

Now that's a sign, I thought, of that hiatus: There is the faction of the rules-lovers, and there's the faction of those who believe the TDE rules have become too complex.

Within that discussion I mentioned my thought that this reminds me of "Fanboyism". The ones who love their complex rules and want the rule system to grow rather into the direction of simulation - thus growing maybe even more complex - are heavily defending everything the way it is now, and will - at least in the forums - thwart (right word) all tries to offer less complex rules for beginners.

The one from Ulisses, who mentioned that example from above also told the audience how many angry replies and remarks he had seen which were directed at a special beginner's bookled especially designed to equip beginners with a light-weight TDE4 system, sort of. He told the audience that fans had written in the forums how much rubbish that booklet was, not good for TDE players at all, that this was simply a waste of money ... The fans just didn't see the problems pure beginners might have, because they are in the TDE rules for so long, up to 20 years or so (rather extremes), but often 10 years at least.

Right now, there's a similar discussion going on in the official Drakensang forums about the Prequel. Some want ALL rules to be implemented. And that is - from a technical standpoint - imho almost impossible or at least would need 3 more years.
They just don't see any difficulties in implementing the technics, but instead they just demand the rules to be implemented.

And believe me, complete with all of the above mentioned "Ways of the ..." rules supplements, there are MANY, many more rules lurking around ...


These discussions are the reason why I had the idea if separating the "rules engine" from the graphics engine. I hope that once a developer will manage to build a such a separation, so that the "rules engine" can be switched. A light system or a complex system ? Okay, as long as all needed animations are there.

This would perhaps even llow to use entirely different rule sets with the same animations ! (A)D&D, for example. Or any other "rules engine" to which the available game animations fit.

NWN already managed to separate the engine from the content, so to say. The next step imho would be to separate the engine completely from the content.
But I fear that only huge firms with lots of money and lots of research time will be able to manage this - and then maybe even put a patent on it (I'm relatively surprised that Bioware didn't do this already for NWN).

[Dasale]

About the rules complexity I totally agree that this is coming mainly from a new system for most players. In fact the game is close to provide a good in game information. I believe they just did a small error with big consequences, the small information windows that popup when the tutorial is activated appear only once and can't be check anymore, not to mention the high temptation to close them before really read them and later regret. This part should have been polished a bit better and available through a little in game tutorial encyclopedia.

For P&P rules used for a computer game, I feel that a totally wrong approach, what are thinking the guys asking that? The sample question is where is the human master when you play a CRPG? That's enough to make very doubtful such requests.

[Dasale]

Within that discussion I mentioned my thought that this reminds me of "Fanboyism". The ones who love their complex rules and want the rule system to grow rather into the direction of simulation - thus growing maybe even more complex - are heavily defending everything the way it is now, and will - at least in the forums - thwart (right word) all tries to offer less complex rules for beginners.
Just another sample of how blind and rigid are too many fan, they always don't want change anything as if everything was perfect as it is. With this approach we would still use rock to hunt mammoth. :biggrin:

[Gorath]

Just another sample of how blind and rigid are too many fan, they always don't want change anything as if everything was perfect as it is. With this approach we would still use rock to hunt mammoth. :biggrin:

:D

Reminds me of the old wisdom that there are two groups you shouldn't listen to if you want to improve your product:
1) Professional critics. It's impossible to satisfy them because their job is criticising.
2) Fans, because they want to maintain the status quo.

[Dasale]

Lol critics and fans, the same war, I'm sure the fans will enjoy! Excellent advice for any game designer but I'd temper with only one point, look more closely any interface design feedback.

[Desslock]

Thanks Dhruin. I always loved his articles.

Thank you.

[Alistair]

Just got on to this. I don't think that's a bad review at all. I don't agree with the complexity comment - the system seems internally consistent and you can just ignore it as far as I can see, and the camera control was very good, apart from the odd time in cramped spaces. Overall though, I think his take was pretty reasonable.