Top 10 CRPGs of all time

[woges]

I can't say going through Irenicus' dungeon again would fill me with much joy. It's been a very long time since I played BG and I've never really liked Bioware's intro experiences. I just don't like tutorials in games.

[Dasale]

It's useless to answer me about of all that crap I won't read. Ok I don't change what I think about that. But I also know I push it too far or too rough and once that's done I can only expect that some people will react too hot. :) So well you too you should better let that crap behind, that will be better for everybody.

[purpleblob]

It's more BG2 SoA which is overrated.

I disagree with you there :P

It's still a great game but Baldur's Gate II was so much better as to make it unnecessary to even bother with BG1 if you've never played the series.

Relayer pretty much said what I want to say in this :)

[purpleblob]

I can't say going through Irenicus' dungeon again would fill me with much joy. It's been a very long time since I played BG and I've never really liked Bioware's intro experiences. I just don't like tutorials in games.

That's what dungeon-begone mod for ;)

[Dasale]

It's still a great game but Baldur's Gate II was so much better as to make it unnecessary to even bother with BG1 if you've never played the series.
Relayer pretty much said what I want to say in this :)

That's a bit short as an argument, in fact that's not an argument at all, just an assumption. It's not because there's a lot of subjectivity in personal preferences that you can't analyze them and explain them a bit. Allow me to give you an example. :)

Myself the reason I preferred BG1 than BG2 SoA are:

Fights, that's an important part of the game as there are many fights. I preferred those in BG1 because of a terrible flaw in BG2 SoA fights, the first round(s) had too much importance for too many fights involving some tedious frenzy pausing. BG1 fights don't suffer this problem and the only problem was a balance in favor of long range weapons. But it's still much better fighting in BG1 than in BG2 SoA. Ha well I suppose some people enjoyed a lot this frenzy pausing. :biggrin:
Companions are an important part of the mood and there's no comparison for me: In BG2 there's more quantity for a lower quality when compared to BG1. Companions was more detailed in BG2 but none was as attaching than most of those in BG1. Even companions coming from BG1 lost their nice appeal in BG2.
BG2 had some stupid romances badly written, it's kiddish stuff BG1 wisely avoids. Not to mention how pathetic so unpleasant was that demagogic attempt. And not to mention that now we have to suffer this in many CRPG.
The main story of BG2 is a ridiculously complicate machination, but the problem is that there are many points where you don't know yet how complicate is the whole stuff and then these points of the story are impossible to believe. For me that's quite bad writing.
Still about writing quality, in BG2 you fell like being a puppet and not at all in BG1. It's in fact a general mood, BG2 is cold when BG1 is warm, that's true for companions and for this puppet non human approach but also for many other points of the game, I bet they fired the wrong writer. For sure every taste apply, myself I didn't like some BG2 writing choices.
The beginning of both game is tedious, the advantage in BG1 is that Candlekeep is achieved quite fast and then the open world is here when in BG2 SoA it's a long and tedious beginning until at least you get to open world. That's quite a problem when you want try different classes and races.
In BG1 there are many little thing you'll find by exploring the world. They build a little web of surprises and strange things. That builds a fantasy mood in BG1 that BG2 doesn't have that at all, For sure BG2 has more contents but not as many wild area with strange stuff and not at all the same fantasy mood than in BG1.


For sure I also find better points for BG2 like a bigger quantity, but well I don't care because I'm only looking for the quality so... Anyway overall the better points of BG1 are for me more important than the better points of BG2 SoA. But I have to add that for me the balance is quite close between the two.

Yes any opinion apply, that's just cool if you have the arguments that explain them and arguments that's are credible for their objective part.

[JDR13]

I wouldn't argue that either game is better than the other when talking about BG 1&2. I think they're both great, and that it's simply a matter of personal preference.

The only statement that is blatantly false is the one claiming that nothing is missed by not playing BG1 at all.

[txa1265]

The only statement that is blatantly false is the one claiming that nothing is missed by not playing BG1 at all.

I agree with that - both games are great RPGs and worth playing.

Of course, the graphics are only about the same as recent Spiderweb games, so perhaps they *should* be thrown in the trash ... ;)

[blatantninja]

But it hasn't held up well over time.

While I can understand a lot of things people don't like about BG, I have to completely disagree with this. What hasn't held up over time? The story is still amazing. The interface isn't as refined as BGII for sure, but it still is near the top of the technology tree for any 3-D isometric game.



It's still a great game but Baldur's Gate II was so much better as to make it unnecessary to even bother with BG1 if you've never played the series.

Once you got into it, I could see how not playing BG1 would be ok, but the game doesn't do a great job of bringing you up to speed at the forefront (the question and answer with Jaheria is ok, but doesn't really give you the feel of it), plus some of the other things that happen later wouldn't have as much meaning , like meeting up with Sarevok in ToB (I remembered how difficult a time I had defeating him in BG1 and was very hesitant to agree to his bargain to leave the location you find yourself in, I searched for a good hour for another way out) or when you return to Candlekeep in the dream sequences (It was very eerie to me to get sent back there and made me really remember BG1).

Icewind Dale was more enjoyable to me than BG.

I'm a big dungeon fan, so IWD was a lot more fun on the action side for me, but I felt the story side was very lacking.

[blatantninja]

Agreed. I played BG after PS:T, so that may have colored my views somewhat unjustly, but BG was to me stale and boring, with too many empty areas. I've replayed IE games at least a few times, but BG was an exception: when I tried to start another game, I couldn't even motivate myself out of Candlekeep. IWD has much better atmosphere, areas, and combat.

I loved the open areas. It reminded me of Ultima where you could go most anywhere from the outset. I like to just go out and explore and see what I find as I build my character to a level high enough to start really taking the big quests on. That was one thing I really didn't like about BG2, that so much of the area exploration depended upon going out and talking to someone to unlock the area on the map.

I played BG less than one year ago and hate empty area, I wonder where you saw any.

There are a couple of map areas that have nothing quest related in them. They generally have some random encounters and maybe some hidden loot, but nothing quest related. I like that though. Makes me appreciate the time they took to fill out the world and feel less like I'm being railroaded along a plot line.

To use simple words: the game is dull. Flat. Tedious. Candlekeep in particular is a crappy starter area that offers very little in terms of interest, intrigue, excitement, glimpses of good writing or a good story, anything resembling good characterization.

That's funny, I'd say the exact opposite! I thought Candlekeep was a great starting place. I thought the tutorials offered were pretty good to show you how to add companions, use spells, items, weapons, etc. and I thought it gave some excitement that got me going in the game (why was Gorian so insistent that we leave soon? Who's this Imoen character and why can't she come with me? What the heck is this Candlekeep place?)

I do admit that parts of the main quest got a bit tedious, but overall, it really grabbed me.

[blatantninja]

I can't say going through Irenicus' dungeon again would fill me with much joy. It's been a very long time since I played BG and I've never really liked Bioware's intro experiences. I just don't like tutorials in games.

After my last go through of BGII, I know why the 'Skip Irenicus's dungeon mod' was made! It was cool to do the first time or two, but very tedious now.

[blatantninja]

Companions are an important part of the mood and there's no comparison for me: In BG2 there's more quantity for a lower quality when compared to BG1. Companions was more detailed in BG2 but none was as attaching than most of those in BG1. Even companions coming from BG1 lost their nice appeal in BG2.

I don't see how you get to this. Don't get me wrong, I got attached to my NPC's in BG1 (and II for that matter), but there is virtually no banter with the NPC's in BG1. Outside of the occasional whining by Jaheria and Kahlid to head to Nashkel, I don't remember many of them saying just about anything outside of random comments.

Last play through, I installed the party banter mod and I thought it really brought them all more to life (though it made Imoen far more annoying than I wanted!)

Not to mention how pathetic so unpleasant was that demagogic attempt.

I'm not that familiar with the terminology. What are you referring to?

Still about writing quality, in BG2 you fell like being a puppet and not at all in BG1. It's in fact a general mood, BG2 is cold when BG1 is warm

I liked the whole you impacting the world thing in BG1, but having the rest of the world not give a damn in BG2 was kind of refreshing as well. As for the cold/warm thing, not the words I'd use, but I think we're on the same page. BG1 to me was bright and inviting in everything from the town designs to the colors they used. BG2 was dark and foreboding. Don't get me wrong, I loved BG2 as well, but it's sort of the difference in how you feel when you watch a sad drama vs and uplifting movie. You might love them both, but most people prefer to be happy over sad!

[Dasale]

LOL, I love how you take care to quote me without to mention my pseudo... Very elegant! And ok understand I won't read your crap! :biggrin:

[blatantninja]

I don't know what you mean, but Ok.

[Dasale]

I don't know what you mean, but Ok.

That's just elementary education, I'm very sorry for you that I have to snap your fingers to remind you that. When you quote someone you quote his name, that' so basic and obvious.. :)

[JDR13]

Look guys,

Some people think BG1 was better, and some think BG2 was better, it's not something to start flaming over. Both games left their mark on the genre, lets just leave it at that. I think we should let this thread get back on topic.

[purpleblob]

I agree with you. We don't have to start flame over it :P I think I disliked BG1 due to lack of NPC interactions and horrible resolution. Mainly interactions tho. I've installed Tutu to fix the resolution problem and still didn't find myself much motivated to play the game. On the other hand, once I installed few NPC mods like Gavin or Xan (by PPG) I found myself a bit more motivated. Sadly, not enough to finish the game again. I'm not talking about just romance. The lack of conversation makes me feel they are just "tagging along". I felt upset whenever NPCs in BG2 die and reloaded game but in BG1, I find myself shruggin and moving on. There are more meat shields later on.

Finding about myself (main char) was interesting in BG1. But it's kinda hard when you are just surviving every battle without solid NPCs there to support you (yeah I suck in battle).

On the subject about "you don't need to play BG1 to play BG2" - obviously it's better if you've played through BG1 before playing BG2. But I don't think it's crucial and hence I wasn't very motivated. All you need to know before starting BG2 is read wikipedia to learn backgroun abt who is Imoen, Khalid etc and that you were hunted by Sarevok. Oh, and that you are bhaalspawn. You don't have to play game to learn those.

As I said before, this is my opinion :P

EDIT: Oh, I forgot about journal system! As far as I am concered, I hated BG1 journal system which contributed to my disliking toward BG1.

[blatantninja]

That's just elementary education, I'm very sorry for you that I have to snap your fingers to remind you that. When you quote someone you quote his name, that' so basic and obvious.. :)

If you do the cut and paste (which is what I usually do), you have to manually type the name in. I usually don't bother and I've never seen anyone get offended by that.

[Essaliad]

LOL, I love how you take care to quote me without to mention my pseudo... Very elegant! And ok understand I won't read your crap! :biggrin:

I see that your way of dealing with things you can't refute is to simply ignore it and declare "I won't read your crap!" Man, those splinters you shove into your eyes must be painful.

[Hostile_17]

I think the moods of each BG game fit perfectly. The first game was bright and cheerful which reflected the characters innocence. After the ordeal of everything you went through in Baldurs Gate 1 its only natural and true to life that the characters and themes would be much darker in a sequel which is all about torture, responsability and sacrifice.

[hishadow]

In no particular order:
* Might and Magic VI (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/might-and-magic-vi-the-mandate-of-heaven) and VII (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/might-and-magic-vii-for-blood-and-honor) - very enjoyable memories from these. I recently also completed V and graphics never bothered me.
* Fallout 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/fallout) and 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/fallout-2) - First one is my all-time favourite game.
* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic) - A joy to play and never got boring.
* Final Fantasy VII (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/final-fantasy-vii) - Extremely tedious, almost like playing WoW ;), but I had to complete it.
* Baldur's Gate 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/baldurs-gate) and 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn) - The first rated higher for it's story.
* The Elder Scrolls: Arena (http://www.mobygames.com/game/elder-scrolls-arena) and Daggerfall (http://www.mobygames.com/game/elder-scrolls-daggerfall) - I remember one of these games had a bug halfway through the game that made it impossible to complete (in addition the King made a ghoul sound :)), so I was delayed it half a year. I don't like the current Bethesda though.

[Dasale]

If you do the cut and paste (which is what I usually do), you have to manually type the name in. I usually don't bother and I've never seen anyone get offended by that.

I checked your last 25 posts and couldn't find any that doesn't quote the name at least for the first quote. Are you a liar or what? :) Well I don't care you was a liar or not, or that it was a deliberate significant act or not, or that it was a non conscious act... Now you know the good (and obvious) behavior rule, let hope that now you'll not forget it. It's not for me just for you! :)

[Dasale]

I see that your way of dealing with things you can't refute is to simply ignore it and declare "I won't read your crap!" Man, those splinters you shove into your eyes must be painful.
Nope, that's not the point, it's when people don't respect basic behavior rules that I don't care read a post. I haven"t read any of your last posts for this reason, if you want any answer, just calm down. :biggrin:

[GothicGothicness]

Nope, that's not the point, it's when people don't respect basic behavior rules that I don't care read a post. I haven"t read any of your last posts for this reason, if you want any answer, just calm down.

I am sorry to say this Dasale but I never quote someone's name when I post something just under their latest post. I think it is obvious it is quoting the latest post. I am not the only one to do like this. I think it is quite childish of you to react that strongly about it, and I do not see why it is necesarry, it could also be very easy to forget it.

[Dasale]

I
The Elder Scrolls: Arena and Daggerfalll - I remember one of these games had a bug halfway through the game that made it impossible to complete (in addition the King made a ghoul sound :)), so I was delayed it half a year. I don't like the current Bethesda though.
That's original that you quote those two and not Morrowind. But why not, just your choice.

About a bug at half of main quest, it's funny because in Morrowind I also felt into a similar bug blocking the main quest and still here after all patch applied. I continue play until I realized that my character was uber god and most NPC was complaining that I do nothing about the main quest, then I checked forums and found the bug mention and a way to fix it manually which I did but the follow up of the main quest was then just easy walking. I also started Morrowind 3 times without to continue play very far, until I caught its fun. But despite those problems and the ugly graphics I finally appreciate this game, but not enough to have it in my top ten. A quite good game anyway. For the Elder Scrolls series, from my point of view, it's an overrated series... But that's just a feeling from Morrowind and Oblivion hypes, as I haven't played the two other. :)

[Dasale]

....I do not see why it is necesarry, it could also be very easy to forget it.
Last post or not, it's much more clear for someone reading your post and not reading this like a chat. Plus, someone could have post another post between the time you answer the last post and the time you post your answer.

Anyway, blatantninja post a series of answer, at least 3, and in all, take care to quote the name, and forgot it for just one answer... well that is typical non conscious behavior. :-) More importantly blatantninja post was not at all an answer to a last post, from far.

Yes, remind to someone else a good behavior rule isn't good behavior, and yes you could see that as childish, but your defense of a such bad case, it's... well I could say quite childish. :)

[JDR13]

I can see this thread has pretty much been completely ruined. :-/

[Dasale]

I can see this thread has pretty much been completely ruined. :-/
LOL I plaid culprit in part but keep some hope it's not ruined yet.

Some time ago I read it fully from first post to last post, and two times. Well there have been some pages of hot discussions with few losing self control and that didn't ruined the thread. When you read it, it's quite easy to identify such posts between those that focus the trhead topic so you can skip them quite fast, and few time in past that's some pages to skip.

[hishadow]

That's original that you quote those two and not Morrowind. But why not, just your choice.

About a bug at half of main quest, it's funny because in Morrowind I also felt into a similar bug blocking the main quest and still here after all patch applied. I continue play until I realized that my character was uber god and most NPC was complaining that I do nothing about the main quest, then I checked forums and found the bug mention and a way to fix it manually which I did but the follow up of the main quest was then just easy walking. I also started Morrowind 3 times without to continue play very far, until I caught its fun. But despite those problems and the ugly graphics I finally appreciate this game, but not enough to have it in my top ten. A quite good game anyway. For the Elder Scrolls series, from my point of view, it's an overrated series... But that's just a feeling from Morrowind and Oblivion hypes, as I haven't played the two other. :)
I never liked Morrowind because of the "lack of" main narrative and the fantasy setting, so in that sense I enjoyed the classical fantasy setting of Elder Scrolls more. Also, Bethesda has always been known for it's bugs. :)

[blatantninja]

I checked your last 25 posts and couldn't find any that doesn't quote the name at least for the first quote. Are you a liar or what? :) Well I don't care you was a liar or not, or that it was a deliberate significant act or not, or that it was a non conscious act... Now you know the good (and obvious) behavior rule, let hope that now you'll not forget it. It's not for me just for you! :)

It's usually when I decide to quote various parts of a posts and/or divide it up

[blatantninja]

I think the moods of each BG game fit perfectly. The first game was bright and cheerful which reflected the characters innocence. After the ordeal of everything you went through in Baldurs Gate 1 its only natural and true to life that the characters and themes would be much darker in a sequel which is all about torture, responsability and sacrifice.

I think that's a good way to look at it. It's definitely reflected in the portrait pictures of the NPC's from 1 to 2 (particularly Imoen, heck, I disliked her BGII portrait so much that I replaced it with the BG1 one!)

[Dasale]

In no particular order:
* Might and Magic VI (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/might-and-magic-vi-the-mandate-of-heaven) and VII (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/might-and-magic-vii-for-blood-and-honor) - very enjoyable memories from these. I recently also completed V and graphics never bothered me.
* Fallout 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/fallout) and 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/fallout-2) - First one is my all-time favourite game.
* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic) - A joy to play and never got boring.
* Final Fantasy VII (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/final-fantasy-vii) - Extremely tedious, almost like playing WoW ;), but I had to complete it.
* Baldur's Gate 1 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/baldurs-gate) and 2 (http://www.mobygames.com/game/baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn) - The first rated higher for it's story.
* The Elder Scrolls: Arena (http://www.mobygames.com/game/elder-scrolls-arena) and Daggerfall (http://www.mobygames.com/game/elder-scrolls-daggerfall) - I remember one of these games had a bug halfway through the game that made it impossible to complete (in addition the King made a ghoul sound :)), so I was delayed it half a year. I don't like the current Bethesda though.

I don't quote because I share (or not) this top favorite lists but to extract it out of some submerging debating a little out of topic. :biggrin: Let hope order and discipline will come back here! ;)

Small parenthesis: blatantninja that's fine, I doubt I hurt you but if I did I apologize. :)

[Dasale]

Damit did I succeed to kill this thread? That's quite unfair, it's not the first hot exchange in this thread, it doesn't worth this death.

Well I'll throw my new current top ten:

Gothic 2 + NOTR - Story density, nice world living, player choices, very good exploration, amazing sword fighting with a lot of depth.
Fallout 1 - Adult story telling, depth, plenty interesting choices, nice turn based fight system, magically appealing since the first seconds of play.
Ultima Underworld - Best merge of story, dialogs, exploration, puzzling and fights. Not the best story line but very good dialogs, they mix very well hints, general information, NPC relationship. Excellent puzzling design you don't see anymore in modern CRPG. Real 3D design of the area, no modern CRPG has yet done as well, only the recent Drakensang is going close. Nice original controls but for fights, fights still with a nice depth once you get more used to their weird and approximative controls.
The Witcher - Best story writing, original management of player choices with real consequence in long term, best world living with Gothic 2 NOTR and Ultima 7, an adult story telling full of nice or weird humor, miraculously uncensored content like funny male chauvinist quotes, non serious teenish erotic content and even some weird funny pedophile stupid smiles. Quite fun action fighting if you don't stick to the more basic approach and try diversify your fighting by mixing swording with movements and magic runes.
King's Bounty: The Legend - A tactical RPG and that's the tactical elements that are the core of an amazing gameplay with a lot of depth. A fresh non realistic approach from the scale to very cute graphics. The RPG elements just setup a nice and very pleasant mood. But objectively they are a bit too much symbolic, too generic, with too many humor referencing modern context.
... Myst, Pathway into Darkness, Civilization 1 for Mac, Doom and now King's Bounty The Legend. All those has been more than games, they fascinated me. King's Bounty The Legend isn't top 1 in this list because the RPG elements even if they setup a nice mood, they lack a bit of depth and I need more time to put it that high in my list.
Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer - Build on the rude base of roguelike games but with many very original design counterbalancing the lack of save backup. Deep gameplay but much more user friendly than in the genre tradition. Add to that cute graphics, funny characters and much more story stuff and you get a very original roguelike, rude but very fun gameplay.
Dungeon Master 1 - I played it not so far ago and get amazed by the gameplay quality. An amazing example are the fights, no realism but extreme concentration on gameplay design, this result in a very fun fight action with a lot of depth. Add to that a nice mood, very good exploration and an amazing puzzling quality very diversified and very well merged to the exploration, and you get an amazing game like you don't see much more in more moderns CRPG.
NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer - Epic game, better puzzling than most modern RPG but far to match older games like Dungeon Master. It has deep party NPC and even if they aren't the more attaching companions they are interesting anyway, a great story with a strong epic feeling, and it is much more subtle on the moral point of view than are usually most CRPG.
Badur's Gate 1 - I replayed it recently and get amazed to have forgot how fun it was except an ugly final. For sure BG2 go further and overall BG1 is only solid contents lacking of deep originality but with very few weakness, everything has a solid quality, from fights to main story and NPC companions. But in comparison with BG2, BG1 achieved more freedom, much more attaching companions, better Fantasy mood, better main story and the last but not the least, no weird boring romance to manage. :biggrin:
Citadel: Adventure of the Crystal Keep - I replayed it recently and it's been a chock to realize it was even better than what I allowed me think of a totally unknown game. It's just a little dungeon game but it has an unmatched mystery mood, plenty original and deep puzzling even if few are probably too dfficult. It's also impressive how many modern features this 1989 game had, from deep mouse interface design to personalized graphics. Few big flaws in the gameplay design, deliberate or not, but don't exploit them and you get a rude but great dungeon RPG with an excellent mystery mood.


I won't add the long list of possibly great CRPG I haven't yet try or that I played too few to get a good idea of their fun. But I'll add a short list for honorific mentions:
* Drakensang - Not the perfect CRPG design but plenty quality including an excellent companions design, most often a very good fighting, a very interesting class system. In my heart it clearly worth to be in my top ten, but too many obvious weakness and not so clear yet why I enjoyed it so much, too fresh play, need more time.
* Divine Divinity - If I keep only the core of this game, ie a large part after the beginning and before the last third of the game, this game would be probably in my top 5.
* Realmz: Sword Lands Trilogy - In fact a scenario trilogy for the now free game Realmz (but its scenario aren't yet free even if the price is now very low). I haven't played yet the full trilogy because when I played it the third wasn't released. I remember a lot of good stuff of this play, very good for the first scenario of the trilogy, amazing for the second. Among qualities I remember, a very good writing, nice puzzling and tactical fights design, extreme attention to details, incredible depth and alternatives particularely for such game close to sandbox but with strong story. Alas for such an unknown game and almost a user made addon (but not freeware), I need a more fresh replay to be more sure that my remembering isn't too wrong.
* NWN1: Dreamcatcher Series - The rembering I have of it is a bit old and it's not clear if a part of this remembering wasn't also coming from the amazement of this coming from almost a single guy.
* BG2 SoA and ToB - It's weird how I get a very good but not fully positive remembering about SoA and much better about ToB just because of fights design, unballanced in SoA and quite better tuned and designed in ToB. But I don't know anymore how much I like any of them and need replay them.
* NWN2 OC - My feeling was very very positive about this game when I played it and still is but not enough now because details about it strangely vanished quite a lot and I get a mixed feeling from having read too many negative comments about it.

[HiddenX]

Dasale - good list with good brief descriptions -> I have played them all except:

Citadel: Adventure of the Crystal Keep &
Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer

I will take a look at these.

[txa1265]

Shiren the Wanderer is for the DS ... and quite wonderful.

[Grandor Dragon]

In no particular order.

Ultima VI: The False Prophet
I can't remember how often I played this game. Origin simply got it right with this title. The story was fantastic: epic and personal without stepping into clichès. The world was large enough to feel real, but with enough unique places to never become boring. Also, the characters were excellent. The game has only one flaw, though you can avoid it. Using the Orb of the Moons too early could spoil your experience. I rarely use the Orb when I play nowadays.


Ultima VII: The Black Gate
Fantastic title. Excellent writing. This game was dark and mature before maturity became hip. Combat was useless. Most of the time you pressed "c" and watched the slaughter. Fortunately, the characters and the exploration made up for it.
I loved the sidequests that involved just two people in love, or the drug addiction of some kid.

Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds
Much better than the first part, IMO. Again, great plot and characters. I also loved how different the worlds you visited were. The castle as a "hub", with its ongoing murder mystery quest, was also great fun.

Deus Ex
Except for the AI, this game is pretty much perfect. I love it how you can still find new things when you play it, be it locations or tactics.

Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn
I think the Infinity Engine was a great RPG engine, and BG2 was the best game that used it. Lovely characters and plot, lots of stuff to do, wonderful sidequests. Also, the best romances I have ever seen in a roleplaying game.

Planescape: Torment
More an adventure title than an RPG. Unique scenario with excellent plot and writing. this game left me in awe a couple of times.

Gothic
The engine is what Ultima 9 should have been. Wonderful 3D world with a lot to explore, NPC shedules, exciting combat. Gothic 2 did some things better, but atmosphere-wise, the first part wins. I really felt like part of the community.

Neverwinter Nights 2
I love it for its epicness, especially once you get your own fortress. The story is very clichèd, though.

Fallout 1
This game does everything right except for the companion system. Touching, funny, sick, awesome. Excellent roleplay mechanics. I like how short it is compared to Fallout 2. For me, when a game has many paths and decisions, it has a higher replayability when it is shorter. I feel more tempted to start a game again when I feel that I am going to finish it.


Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday
Underestimated Gold Box game. Fallout is often cited as the perfect pen&paper experience on the computer. Buck Rogers is the better one, IMO. Based on the D&D rules, you saved the solar system with a small party. What makes the game great is that apart from the standard RPG systems, it had a lot of multiple choice situations presented to you by the narrator. Also, the game had a unique scenario and a lot of things to do, including piloting your own spaceship.

Oblivion (with a few Gigabyte of Mods)
I can understand why, for some, Oblivion is the only game they need. With the right mods you can spend hundreds of hours without getting bored. By now, fans have modded Oblivion into a near perfect game.

[Grandor Dragon]

Eleven. Oh well.

[Gutted]

I'm not entirely sure what cRPG is, but these are my favourite games..

1. Betrayal at Krondor
1. World of Xeen
1. King's Bounty : The Legend
1. Lands of Lore 2
1. AD&D : The Temple of Darkmoon

2. Final Fantasy 12 (sorry)
3. NWN 2 : Storm of Zehir
4. Rise of Nations (more of an RTS)
5. Legend of Kyrandia 2 : The Hands of Fate
6. Might and Magic 6

[LuckyCarbon]

Betrayal At Krondor - Fantastic story, pacing and setting. Just enough micro-management to be fun but not annoying. A great intro, here's enough story to get you going, head that way, be ready for your combat introduction.

Fallout 1/2 - Enough said.

Jagged Alliance 2 - Not quite an RPG but at it's heart what I like about RPGs micro-management of resources and strategic combat. Fun characters, great combat. A thankfully real setting.

Wasteland - Great setting and writing, every now and then I get the urge to remake this in some fashion but I never get very far.

Pool of Radiance (Gold Box) - One of the original CRPGs. I still like the setting of this story, how you were just a schmo looking for a paycheck, not a foretold hero.

Deus Ex - Like Fallout it allowed you to solve problems in multiple ways but lost some of that freedom the further you got into the game.

NWN - Apparently I'm the only one on the planet that liked the OC. SoU was too slow. HotU was good in parts, sucked in others.

Witcher - Great anti-hero story and unique character system.

Arcanum - Another unique setting, though a very muddled character system. Nice plot twists.

Kings Bounty - I'm mostly including it as it's the best of it's genre. Good humor, I just wish there was a little more depth to the character system and classes.

Not a top 10 but could someone explain to me why I enjoyed Summoner (the console port ) so much?

Underrated:
Return to Krondor - Not a fantastic game but it gets way more flak than it deserves, I think every one wanted BaK2 and was just angry when they got this.

HIGHLY OVERRATED:
Planescape - Not a bad game but overrated. Talk, talk, talk, bad combat mechanics and very little character development. I did enjoy the part where you have the revelation of your history though.

Baldur's Gate 2 - No matter how many times I try this game I just don't like it. A confused slow moving story, a boring character system and the horrible Infinity Engine combat mechanics. I beat BG1 once upon a time but don't remember liking it any better, just had more free time. Flame away guys but I thought it was just plain boring.

VtMB: I don't get this one, maybe I'm just not goth enough. Combat wasn't good enough to keep my interest and all I did was run around and talk to Vampires. Never got very far in my several attempts at liking this game.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

HIGHLY OVERRATED:
Planescape - Not a bad game but overrated. Talk, talk, talk, bad combat mechanics and very little character development. I did enjoy the part where you have the revelation of your history though.

I very much enjoyed the "talking" part. This shines especially against the fact that we live in an "age of action" and action is too often the only gameplay element well developed nowadays.

[Grandor Dragon]

Yeah, one should not forget how essential dialogue can be in roleplaying. If you take pen&paper seriously, it is often the dialogue where you really define your character. Planescape is amazing because its dialogues give you a lot of freedom. It is so great that on my first playthrough I managed to play myself pretty well. Not thinkable in most other games. Well, maybe the first two Fallouts.

Definitely not Gothic, where by default you play an arrogant ruffian.

[Konjad]

Definitely not Gothic, where by default you play an arrogant ruffian.
If by arrogant ruffian you mean someone not retarded enough to be kind and run around helping people without any reason or explanation - like in most cRPGs.

[LuckyCarbon]

I very much enjoyed the "talking" part. This shines especially against the fact that we live in an "age of action" and action is too often the only gameplay element well developed nowadays.

No doubt, I just enjoy games with a little less dialog than Planescape featured. I'll certainly rail on JRPGs enough that they're usually movies strung together and there's little actual game and Planescape was similar with just text dialog instead of video. Don't get me wrong, I liked Planescape, I've played a lot worse but for me it wasn't worth playing twice. I'm much more of a "roll" player than a "role" player though.

The "age of action" has pretty much killed my cup of tea, my top 5 games were all turn based. Sadly even the "action" portion of action games isn't done well with a lot of the schlock that gets put out.

I always wonder if there's not a lot of money to be made out there in a niche market at the right price point for good modern(!) turn based games. I've been hoping with the advent of internet distribution and more cheap/free resources available someone's going to set up a shop catering to "classic" gamers.

[LuckyCarbon]

If by arrogant ruffian you mean someone not retarded enough to be kind and run around helping people without any reason or explanation - like in most cRPGs.

You know you make a good point. I'm starting to get sick of playing a goody goody all the time. However I've been trained by a generation of gaming to take every quest and be nice to everyone in case you miss that extra xp or worse the sword of wonderful that fedex grandma has been keeping in her attic.

Dear game developers, while spreading a message of kindness and compassion is a good thing, we only act that way because we think we're getting something out of it. I wonder if games started including more no reward/negative consequence results to kind actions ( more like real life ) if gamers would start acting more like real people in games.

In Kings Bounty you can make peace with plant/thorn creatures by bringing them a cow so they can live peacefully near the humans. The first time I did that quest I said to myself, how awesome would it be if my kindness here came back and bit me in the butt if in 20 hours of gameplay later the thorn things had built up their strength and were now powerful enough to eat all the villagers. So instead of me snuffing out a couple of plants when they were weak I instead was enabling them to bring much greater harm on the world. I guess Mass Effect had a similar moral dilemma with the bug queen but it was only a thought provoking attempt with no results realized in the game.

[Konjad]

I guess Mass Effect had a similar moral dilemma with the bug queen but it was only a thought provoking attempt with no results realized in the game.
I killed her so I don't know how it would turn out :)

Actually I think most of cRPGs have bad dialogues - stupid, without sense or not realistic. For example Baldur's Gate (which I love but I love to criticize what I like! Well... actually I love to criticize everything :) ) has so many dialogues like "Hi, I've got quest for u, go to forest find 10 bugs and bring them to me!" or "Hello, kill [name here] and I'll give u [item here]". And it's in the most cRPGs. Dialogues like that are ok but not if there are more of them than "normal" dialogues. I know it's hard to reach perfection (ok, nothing is perfect but still these are the best) of VtM Bloodlines or Planescape Torment but The Witcher managed to have interesting and "deep" dialogues and it's new game so it's still possible.

And about new Bioware's great idea about dialogues in Mass Effect. I wasn't sure what my character will say after selecting option 1/2/3 and sometimes it turned out that Shephard said opposite what I wanted. I hope they won't do the same with Dragon Age.

[Relayer]

I'm not entirely sure what cRPG is, but these are my favourite games..
2. Final Fantasy 12 (sorry)


Apology not needed, FF12 was a great game :)
Now had you mentioned FF8 or that overrated FF7, ugh!

Oh and cRPG is Computer (PC) RPG or Western RPG.
Whereas FF12 is a JRPG or Japanese (or console) RPG.

[Relayer]

Luckycarbon, you think BG2 is overrated but consider NWN's OC one of your top CRPGs? Are you on crack?????? :)

Ok, seriously, it's YOUR list but I think I won't be the only one to find that strange.

NWN's OC was sooooooo bland. The whole game was linear. The characters were lifeless except for that thief Tom what's-his-name and even then he got annoying really quick. The game just felt like seperate modules slapped together - which is actually what it was.

BG2 is it's complete opposite. The world felt more alive, cohesive. And there was a LOT going on with all the various side quests and characters. There was just so much to do. I never really liked the villian but the main quest was still good. It was just a truly epic game with all the locales and people you met. NWN just felt like a demo to show what the engine could do. NWN 2 was a much better game (and even that wasn't great, just ok - MoTB was awesome though).

[JDR13]

Definitely have to agree with Relayer on that one...

[blatantninja]

You know you make a good point. I'm starting to get sick of playing a goody goody all the time. However I've been trained by a generation of gaming to take every quest and be nice to everyone in case you miss that extra xp or worse the sword of wonderful that fedex grandma has been keeping in her attic.

I'm not sure we've been trained, maybe it's just our nature, but I feel a bit the same way anyway. I've tried to play through several games as evil, such as BG1&2, NWN OC, Ultima V remake, Ultima VII. I just can't do it. I'm not evil. I'm a goody goody!

[Grandor Dragon]

If by arrogant ruffian you mean someone not retarded enough to be kind and run around helping people without any reason or explanation - like in most cRPGs.

No, that's absolutely not that I mean. What I mean is that even if the Gothic hero is willing to help (and he often HAS to), he treats most people like crap. He obviously doesn't like listening to people, is bored or annoyed quickly, threatens randomly and never made any compliment even to a friend. He's fun to play though.

[txa1265]

Luckycarbon, you think BG2 is overrated but consider NWN's OC one of your top CRPGs? Are you on crack?????? :)


Personally I *love* NWN OC, but I know that is because it holds the distinction of being the game that brought me back into the RPG fold after so many years away ...

[Relayer]

I did enjoy the NWN expansion packs more than the OC though.
SoU was just a little better than the OC but HoTU was a fun time.

And I can't get myself to play an evil character either...usually it's good or neutral if possible, heh. But I think it has more to do with Evil characters being done poorly in most RPGs. They come off as one dimensional and forced.

[DeepO]

Speaking of NWN, playing an evil character in Mask of Betrayer ruled.

[blackcanopus]

Here is my list, in NO specific order.


Ultima VII The Black Gate
DarkSun: Shattered Lands
Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magick Obscura
Planesacape: Torment
Gothic 2
Fallout
Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind

Deus Ex
System Shock 2

[donjn]

No, that's absolutely not that I mean. What I mean is that even if the Gothic hero is willing to help (and he often HAS to), he treats most people like crap. He obviously doesn't like listening to people, is bored or annoyed quickly, threatens randomly and never made any compliment even to a friend. He's fun to play though.

See to me, I find this aspect of the Gothic hero to be refreshing. He has his own personality. Sometimes I am bored and dont like to listen to people...lol

[Allsvinn]

1. Vampire: Bloodlines
2. Final Fantasy VII
3. World of Warcraft
4. Might and Magic VII
5. Divine Divinity
6. Legend of Mir (for some reason)
7. Gothic 1,2
8. Oblivion (yep)
9. Fallout 1,2,3 (the 3 is not a typo)
10. Diablo
These are in no specific order.

These are the ones which come to mind at the moment. Legend of Mir I really put there because I spent so much time playing it, even if I can't put my finger on why. (I did like it though :P)
Fallout 3 I put there because I became completely addicted to it and I think they managed to capture the mood of the previous Fallouts.

EDIT: Just realized this was a top 10 CRPG list ( In which I guess you couldn't put MMORPGS). I really don't know which ones to put in their place :)

[shaf]

Hmm my list covers some very old games

1. Ultima IV
2. Faery Tale Adventure
3. Dragon Wars
4. M&M 4&5 : World of Xeen
5. Ultima VII
6. Phantasie 1
7. M&M 6
8. Balder's Gate
9. Morrowind
10. Devil's Whiskey

[Dajjer]

Top 10 RPGs

1)Gothic 2
The first computer game I felt I was living in the world. With a realistic night and day coupled with an open world and intelligent monsters, this game sorta spoiled me for all other CRPGs

2)Deus Ex
My first rig could not run this game so I had to wait about a year after its release. With all the anticipation you might think I was in for an eventual let down, I wasn’t. And due to a recent article here, I’m thinking of reinstalling.

3)Might and Magic 6
After the garish color palate of the previous M&Ms, the pastel look of this game was somewhat of a surprise. But the superb game play coupled with a late game flying ability made this one of the few CRPGS that I replayed

4)Land of Lore 1
When this game was released it was just a tad behind the technology curve. I wanted smooth 3d motion and this game provided step motion. After I got over the chip on my shoulder I was totally into the game world and the fun interface. I think LOL was the first game that had monsters (spiders) approach from the ceiling.

5)Morrowind
While the game play was somewhat slow I was always interested. A vastly different fantasy world that was much appreciated me. I initially stopped playing this game after about half way through, but restarted and finished about 2 years later.

6)Fallout 1
As you can see from my list, I’m not much into overhead perspective. But this game changed my feelings about that. I just loved the choices the first game made you take. You simply could not power game. I went into this game with some bad feelings also, I wanted to see the real sequel to Wasteland, turned out this was far better.

7)Divine Divinity
The buzz on this game was unbelievable. The buzz said forget about the boring first dungeon and you will find a gem. The buzz was correct and great great game was made even better with perhaps one of the best sound tracks of all time (any gaming genre)

8)Might & Magic 7
While this game was vastly better than M&M 6in so many aspects, it simply was not overall better than 6. Still, it rates in my top 10.

9)Gothic 1
I started with Gothic 2 first. I was a Morrowind fanboy who bought into the hype of Gothic 1’s inferior interface, so it was not worthy to be played. Gothic 2 showed me how wrong I was. Playing Gothic 2 first made playing 1 second a very interesting experience. Sorta like going in a time machine. For instance the dragon cave in 1 was a human settlement in 2.

10)Ultima 9
What say you? I know this was not really a true Ultima game but damn, I had a ton of fun playing this game. Of course I played this game years after it was released and well behind the technology curve so I had no problems. Also unlike the real Ultima games when the mid game get bogged down, I didn’t feel that in this game. I remember this game fondly.

Some games that didn't make the cut but were truly worthy( Anvil of Dawn, Wizardry 8, Arx Fatalis, Fallout 3, StoneKeep, Two Worlds, Arcanium, World of Krondor, Menzoberranzan & Neuromancer)

[GothicGothicness]

World of Krondor,

World of Krondor ?!?!?!?! is this a Krondor game I never heard of and didn't play ?!?!?!?! Betrayel at Krondor is one of my all time favourite games!!!

Please give me more info ASAP, great list BTW.

[JDR13]

World of Krondor ?!?!?!?! is this a Krondor game I never heard of and didn't play ?!?!?!?! Betrayel at Krondor is one of my all time favourite games!!!.


I think he was simply referring to *all* the Krondor games when he said "world of".

[Dajjer]

My bad, I was referring to Betrayal at Krondor. But, I was one of the few who actually enjoyed Return to Krondor. And breezed through that game quicker than Betrayal.

I'm smiling now because I can still remember my crappy lute playing in the pubs as I started the game. I wish more fantasy CRPGs would utilize that game mechanic.

[mndrew]

Thread resurrection time.
Man, reading this from start to finish was painfully fun. You guys have memories that put me to nerd shame. Rings of Zilfin, Legacy of the Ancients, Magic Candle...how could I have forgotten you! Keif the Thief and Knights of Xentar even bring back a warm glow of shameful joy.
But, why, oh why, no love for Hillsfar? A game that existed just to prep your characters for another game, by adding that ONE elusive level? And I still loved it.
I would also add to these lists the "Books of Yendor" series, just about the best 'home brew' cprg of the 90's IMHO.
And where is the love for "Defender of the Crown"? This was the game that sold me on the C=64 for those amazing graphics. Getting to joust and throw dead cows in a siege were bonus points.

[JDR13]

And where is the love for "Defender of the Crown"? This was the game that sold me on the C=64 for those amazing graphics. Getting to joust and throw dead cows in a siege were bonus points.


I remember Defender of the Crown quite fondly, although I wouldn't consider it an RPG. I spent many hours playing the NES version.

[Zloth]

The Books of Yendor series? I believe I retrieved an Amulet of Yendor a few times from a certain wizard but what are these books?

[mndrew]

The Books of Yendor series? I believe I retrieved an Amulet of Yendor a few times from a certain wizard but what are these books?
Trilogy put out by small time group SW games in the late 90's. Chapter I, Chapter II, and Tyrants of Thaine. Good stuff, demos up to level 10 still available on download.com.

[Gregz]

In no particular order:

Wasteland
The Bard's Tale
System Shock 2
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Diablo 1&2
Nethack or Zangband
KOTOR
Wizardy 8
Might and Magic 7
Daggerfall
Shadowrun (Sega Genesis)
Deus Ex

Edit: Wow, I just played Jagged Alliance 1.13 for the 1st time. 2 or 3 posters in this thread mentioned this game along with other games I enjoyed, so I checked it out. Jagged Alliance 1.13 is like Wasteland/Fallout(s) taken to the most extreme level of detail…it's truly staggering, an amazing project (1.13 is a mod rather than a patch). This thread is an excellent tool for discovering great crpgs we may have missed along the way.

[Fnord]

It is hard to make a top list, at least for me. My "favourites" varies a lot depending on my mood. But here is the list for the moment (in no particular order):

Drakensang: River of time
Morrowind
The Witcher
Ultima 7
Realms of arkania 3: Shadows over riva
Arcanum
Vampire the masquerade: Bloodlines
Fallout 2
Ultima Underworld 2
Planescape torment

Honourable mentions:
Ultima 5, Shadowrun (SNES, not the one for mega drive/gensis), Daggerfall, Gothic 1-3, Lands of lore: The throne of chaos, Alpha Protocol, Drakensang, Realms of Arkania 1-2, Icewind dale, Lands of lore 2, Fallout 1, Fallout New vegas, Mass Effect 1-2.

Games which I don't consider to be CRPGs, but that others do, and that I love:
System shock 2, Deus Ex.

[Fadista]

I love these type of threads for some reason. Here are my favorites :

1) Baldur's Gate 2: I enjoyed this one so much... I didnt cared much for BG1 for some reason so Baldur's Gate 2 was my first serious contact with Forgotten Realms which I adored. I really liked every location in this game but specially Ust Natha, the illithid city and the Athkatla sewers and bridge district. The classes were fun also though kinda unbalanced.

2)Ultima 7: I ve never finished this game. In fact I dont even know what the plot is about.. I just remember some guy lying dead at the start. As I was really young and my english very poor at the time, I couldnt figure what was going on. Still I had a blast just stealing, robbing houses, moving stuff into my boat, exploring Brittania, assaulting little towns with my party.. Was amazing :)

3)Neverwinter Nights: The OC was very avarage but it was worth it because of HotU which was a lot better and the many good player modules that helped me increase my Forgotten Realms knowledge. Good times.

4)EVE Online: easily the most immersive game I ve ever played.. It used to feel great just drifting through space in some remote location while looking at those stunning visuals and great soundtrack. Too bad I detest its gameplay..

5)Vampire Redemption and Bloodlines: I put these two together as they have the same setting and feel for me. Bloodlines was truly an horror RPG and had great locations (Haunted Hotel, the house where snuff films were shot, the malkavian mansion, the derelict hospital where Pisha is). I enjoyed Redemption a lot due to its plot and for spanning through medieval and modern age.

6)Deus Ex: What I enjoyed the most was the nearly dystopic setting and the plot twistes with Paul Denton ending up and in the terrorists and the revelations that followed. Was expecting a purely misson based game where you fight off the terrorrists, great game.

7) Mass Effect 1 and 2: I found these two great as well and they are very similiar. Some rpg elements are kept to a minimum or are just absent but I found the plot and lore to be enough to keep me tied to my pc. Playing as a charging Shotgun Vanguard was also pretty fun. The NPCs were also very good (Grunt, Garrus, Joker, Tali, Saren, the Illusive Man, Tali, Legion, Thane and Mordus).

8 or 9) Planescape Torment: Great plot and locations with what I found to be terrible gameplay, combat, stats and inventory... Still a great experience. Morte, Vhailor, Ignus, Dakkon, Trias, Ravel and Pharod make up the best npc cast in any RPG imo. tied with

8 or 9) Dragon Age: Origins. the exact opposite, I feel this one had the best gameplay ever in terms of character movement, combat system and camera control. Its too bad about all the locations were unremarkable (aside from the Dead Trenches), the plot was somewhat poor (aside from the Orzammar sucession part) and class balance and customization horrid. If only they had the Forgotten Realms license.

10) The Elder Scrolls Series: I love the idea more than the game. I have always found the gameplay dull and the npcs completly souless. Still I had fun on Daggerfall roaming through the world and robbing houses, murdering people and stuff hehehe.

[rossrjensen]

I wanted to resurrect this old thread to see if anyone felt Skyrim had made it into their top 10 lists, where it would fall, and why.

While I'm at it, I will add my own very comprehensive list. I have some sort of obsession with RPG's, which is why I am on this site all the time. But, for whatever reason, I find myself talking about them as much as, if not more, than I actually play them. Because of that, I have a huge list of games that I have owned forever, but have not finished, and in some cases, that I have not even played.

I'm going to put out my list of top 10, but I am not including games that I have not played substantially enough (and that list is considerable). You will probably be able to tell a lot about when I developed my video game tastes based on some of my favorites on here.

Top 10 CRPGs:

1. Fallout 1 - This is the game that started this obsession in me. I'm not sure if I encountered it at that perfect time in my life or if it was really just that good. In either case, I have some severe nostalgia with this game and have replayed it a couple times over the last decade. The setting was unlike anything I had ever experienced. I loved the characters, story, setting, and style. Most of all, the choices and consequences were better than anything I had ever experienced and is not matched by many games ever made. You can play the game in any way you want and everything you do impacts the ending in some way. And man, what an ending! Having the freedom to do what I wanted when I was a 14 year old high school kid wandering the wasteland, I of course took a page out of the Road Warrior and took advantage of every NPC I encountered in whatever way I could to make sure that whatever happened would be best for me. Everyone else could go to Hell as far as I was concerned. *SPOILER AHEAD* In the end, after saving the wasteland from terrible mutation, I couldn't believe that the Overseer would dare kick me, the all-power Vault Dweller, out of his society! So what did I do in my dejected state? That's right, I blew him to pieces. I always wanted to kill that bastard anyway. There was something poetic about watching the Vault Dweller be cast off into the wasteland, rejected by the very people he had worked to save.

2. Fallout 2 - It might be pretty lame of me to use my top two spots and two games that are incredibly similar, but that lets you know how much influence this franchise has had on me. Fallout 2 increased the length considerably and added lots of new features to improve the game. I recently played through Fallout 2 again with the restoration patch installed. It made the wasteland a pretty seriously dangerous place at first, but eventually I became the hero that I was destined to become. I realized in my latest playthrough, that it isn't just nostalgia that makes this game great. I was blown away by the intricacies involved with the choices I could make. Fallout 2's story isn't nearly as interesting or epic to me as Fallout 1 and its setting is somewhat erratic, but improvements to companions, interface, as well as the added length (including the ability to continue after finishing the game), more things to do, and greater loot make this game easier to revisit. These two games are the games I measure everything up against.

3. Diablo - This is one that I am sure many people will disagree with. For plenty of people, this hardly qualifies as a RPG at all. However, I am going to include it anyway. This game is all about three things, combat, loot, and character building. In fact, all three of those things go hand in hand as you travel further into the depths of Hell. The setting for Diablo was about perfect. Tristram was a quaint, disturbed little town. I enjoyed the focus of Diablo much more than in the second game, and at the time it came out, there had never been anything remotely close to it. I have a tendency to play as mages in games to this day, because I know how powerful that character could become in Diablo (compared to the warrior, which is what I actually played through the game as). The ending was also excellent (probably #2 for me only behind Fallout 1's). *ANOTHER SPOILER* You learn that your character's motive was to kill Diablo either in an attempt to harness his powers or that he was so arrogant as to believe that he could contain the Evil One's powers. Either way, you get the feeling that ultimately things may not turn out well. I will probably buy Diablo 3, mostly because I have such fond memories of this game (and despite thinking that the Diablo 3 intro cinematic was pretty poor).

4. Dragon Age: Origins - Dragon Age: Origins ignited something in me that I hadn't felt from a video game in a number of years. I thought the story had a pretty generic setting, was not a huge fan of the team-based combat that others have raved about, and thought some of the dungeons and missions turned into unnecessarily long grind-fests. The game also had some noticeable level scaling to me and I thought the battles near the end of the game were unfinished (dark spawn were all of the sudden very easy to kill, as if they wanted an epic ending where you would slice through hundreds of them at a time, but had to back off because it demanded too much in resources to pull off for the time). However, none of that mattered. What did matter is what they did right. What I loved about the game was the characters. The relationships I built with the characters felt real, and to me, this is almost the entire reason that I rank this game so highly. I truly role-played in DA: O by making decisions that I felt most accurately reflected what I would actually choose based upon my personality and politics. Ultimately, my character ended up as a "good guy", but clearly had shades of gray. *SPOILERS* Choosing who would be my lover between Leliana and Morrigan was honestly a difficult decision that I didn't want to make and in the end I sacrificed my own character for the greater good, a decision I would not normally make in a video game, because I cared about the other characters in the game so much. It seems like it was a serious lost opportunity for Bioware to not continue the storyline from Origins in Dragon Age 2 and allow you to import you character like they did with the Mass Effect. What a shame.

5. Fallout: New Vegas - I never got into Fallout 3. I tried many times, but it never connected. It only took me two tries before I got into New Vegas, and that's because in my first try I tried to split town by heading north to New Vegas and was slaughtered by a cazador. From that moment, I thought New Vegas felt like a true sequel to Fallout 2, and this was confirmed the more I played the game. The factions and the way the world reacted to what I did seemed a lot more realistic than in Fallout 3. The Brotherhood of Steel once again were just another group with their own interests and problems that I could use to my advantage and then destroy, or help to regain power in the wasteland. The NCR gained strength through numbers, but showed it had some administrative weaknesses. Caesar's Legion was an alternative that used harsh methods to combat the harsh wasteland with effective results, but brutal techniques. House only wanted to keep what he had rightfully created, which appealed to my libertarian sentiments. On top of that, complete liberation also became an option. All these options and ways to play the major and minor factions against each other for personal gain, in the biggest Fallout universe yet, made for some great role-playing!

6. Gothic II - I am somewhat new to the Gothic universe. In fact, the first Gothic game I purchased was Gothic 3, in hopes that it would be what I had originally thought Oblivion would be. In fact, my first experience actually playing Gothic II (with the NOTR expansion) started a couple months ago. I tried to play the first game, but did not have the patience to learn the control scheme. My disclaimer is that I have not yet beat Gothic II, but I feel that I have played it enough to know the range of where it will fit (my game has been interrupted by moving and no longer having the computer I was playing it on - though I should be able to get my saved games later when I go back to visit). A great ending might bump it up. Gothic II really does everything that I look for in a RPG. It has awesome exploration, the combat is really fun, and the character development system is really interesting. You really feel like you are getting more powerful in incremental steps. Piranha Bytes is one of my most closely followed developers because of the awesome games they have made and the potential they show.

7. Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura - Arcanum is a game I purchased without knowing much about it shortly after it was released. I hadn't heard any reviews and had no idea who Troika was at the time, but the game's box made it look intriguing and kind of reminded me of Fallout. When I first tried playing it, I wasn't able to get in to it. Several years later, I had started college, got a new computer, and thought I would try giving the game another shot. I ended up playing the game nearly non-stop for a week, until I had beaten it. The combat wasn't especially great (I played in real time), but after becoming powerful enough, it was a breeze just hacking through anything that came my way (no real long drawn out battles). The character building in this game is second to none. It might even be better than the SPECIAL system from the Fallout games in my book. The reactions and politics of the the NPC's felt quite realistic and the game presents you with plenty of choices, all with important ramifications. The story is actually pretty solid, with a couple of interesting twists. Unfortunately, the ending felt like a bit of a let down to me. Still, a great game that I look forward to playing again sometime.

8. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - I remember reading about KOTOR nearly a year before it was released. The article got me quite excited about the game. When I played it, I wasn't disappointed. KOTOR sports a legendary setting, a wide variety of interesting powers to unlock, and a memorable story. I don't know about all of you, but I didn't see the twist coming at all! I felt like the game has some pretty serious limitations regarding exploration and the dark/light option was not very complex (want to see the evil ending? Just reload! Who cares if you have been choosing evil options the entire game!), but KOTOR was a great overall package.

9. Risen - I actually played Risen before I played Gothic II. I thought the combat was excellent and the exploration was a lot of fun. In my time with the game, I ended up as a member of the inquisition. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that I had become part of any faction until later in the game. This was unfortunate because I did not choose to be with the inquisition, they forced me to join, and since I was not familiar with the Gothic games, I really had no idea that I was joining any sort of faction. My goal was to become the greatest swordsman that the world had ever seen, but the trainer who could actually teach me to reach the fullest capabilities was a member of the bandits. So I could never wield two-handed weapons with one had, at least not without cheating or starting over (by the time I found this out, I was near the end of the game). Anyway, this was my only complaint in my time with an otherwise excellent game. Risen was a very polished product (a few missing lines of spoken dialog aside) and a great effort by Piranha Bytes after the debacle with Gothic 3 and its aftermath. Risen 2 is currently my most anticipated game.

10. Divine Divinity - Divine Divinity's biggest strengths were the vast amount of skills it offered, its open-ended character customization, and the vast, open world that you could explore. It's biggest weakness was the massive dungeons that forced excessive grinding, particularly the dungeon at the beginning of the game and the dungeon just before the end (the end was also weak in my opinion). The game featured some truly interesting NPC's and quests. Closer to the end of the game, it was a lot of fun just to cruise around the map and slay orcs by the hundreds.

Games I have not finished that I think could make the top 10 and force some other games out (in no order):

Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 - It's embarrassing to admit having not finished these games. I currently have it set up with in the Baldur's Gate trilogy big world setup. I have started two separate characters but haven't been really drawn in yet. One of these days I hope it clicks, it could keep me busy for years alone.

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines - I've heard some fantastic things about this game. I also loved Arcanum and so I would like dedicate some serious time to this title one day. I have it installed on my computer with the unofficial patch.

Divinity II - the Dragon Knight Saga - I have actually played this game for a pretty good amount of time, but it got pushed down my game queue because of other games. I really enjoyed it while playing it and think it has tons of potential to surpass Divine Divinity at least.

Morrowind - Another big one that I have never finished. I have started this one several times as well, but was never drawn in. One of these days it will click. I currently have this and its expansions installed with the Overhaul Project mod to give the game a facelift for when I do get to it.

Planescape: Torment - Another heavyweight that slipped past me. I love the setting and it certainly seems like my type of game, but it's another one that hasn't quite clicked. It will some day when I have more time. Must be something with the infinity engine for me…

Temple of Elemental Evil - Another Troika title I want to check out that I have heard a lot of positive things about. It sounds like this game is very focused on combat, which means it probably will be one of the last ones I get to. Same goes for the Icewind Dale games. I have TOEE installed with the Circle of Eight Modpack installed on my computer.

The Witcher 1 & 2 - I have restarted the Witcher twice, but still have not made much headway into the game. I hear it's one of the best, so it will probably be one of the next games I tackle. I won't play the Witcher 2 until I finish the first, especially since you can import your character.

Drakensang: The Dark Eye and River of Time - Have only played a bit of the Dark Eye and thought it was pretty good. I've read it's kind of linear unfortunately. I also hear the River of Time is better though. These are somewhat lower priorities for me.

Dragon Age 2 - I really have heard nothing but bad things about this game. Most of that is focused on repetitiveness and combat simplicity. However, to be honest, neither of those were big factors for me in the first game. If the character interaction is as good, I will probably be happy. It's a shame that you don't get to play as a more customizable hero though.

Fallout 3 - Wasn't able to get in to this as I mentioned, but after New Vegas I played it for a couple hours and actually enjoyed it more. Have this installed with the DLC.

Ultima VII - I bought this when it was released on Gog. I was a little young for the Ultima games, having only really played Ultima VIII (which I never figured out what to do in) and Ultima IX (which my computer could hardly process at the time - this game doesn't look too bad by today's standards still), but I have meant to play it for years. I booted it up after buying it (knowing I would not give it the time it deserves because of other games I have been playing) and couldn't figure out what to do with the murder or how to feed my companion, so I saved it for another day.

Gothic I - Only things that have held me back are the somewhat dated graphics (not a big deal to me) and the controls (enough to make me opt for Gothic II instead). But with as much as I have enjoyed the second, I expect to give it a go again, even though I have already spoiled the story.

Gothic 3 - Here's the thing, I have tried playing this game several different times. Truth be told, I love it! I have just run into problems every time and it keeps getting moved down my queue because of it. I know one of the greatest RPGs of all time is hidden in there, so I will definitely give it another shot sometime soon.

Final Fantasy VII - I am not really in to JRPGs. For some reason, I just never have been. They seem very linear and with uninteresting combat systems. However, people rave about the story-telling and some of my friends swear that Final Fantasy VII is the greatest game ever made. If you can actually find this game on PC (which isn't easy), you can install a mod that enables openGL and allows the graphics to be vastly improved (not just giant 3D blocks for hands). It's inconsistent (some images have not been changed), but it does make the game better looking overall.

Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 - I hear the first is all about expansions and mods and the second one has better story-telling, but was unfinished or unpolished. Since I like Obsidian, I think I will opt for NWN 2 with patches first, unless there is some reason I shouldn't…

Deus Ex and DE: Human Revolution - I played a lot of Deus Ex many years ago and remember enjoying it quite a bit, but never finished it. I recently revisited it, but after dying early, I abandoned it for the time being. I also started Human Revolution, but decided not to get too in to it until after I finish the original.

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2 - I've heard this is actually a better story than the first. With the restoration pack, I could see this jumping the first game on my list if that's true.

Wizardry 8 - Everything indicates that this is also a classic of the genre. It's a style of game that I didn't really grow up with and am not to familiar with, so it's probably a little further down my backlog.

Games I have played that don't, or probably won't, make the top 10 (in no order):

Oblivion - I will never forgive this game for its level scaling. I do have it and its expansions installed with the FCOM mod that I might play through again someday though.

Two Worlds 1 & 2 - I actually kind of enjoyed both games. The first had terrible voice acting and was not memorable at all, but had awesome loot, a big world, and plenty of quests. The second I haven't actually finished yet, though I have put in a good amount of time. It could possibly make the cut if it has a strong ending. I recently installed the merge mod with Pirates of the Flying Fortress and will restart with a new game eventually.

Diablo II - It was fun, but not memorable for me like the first was.

Sacred - Huge world, tons of quests, but comes off as very stale, impersonal, and forgettable. It's a fun game to play with friends since you can explore the entire world with them though. I have only barely played Sacred 2, but it seems to fall in the same category.

Alpha Protocol - I actually really liked Alpha Protocol. It's very complex and branching with its choices and consequences. It also has some weaker aspects, like some convoluted story-telling and boss fights. It just doesn't make the cut unfortunately.

Dungeon Siege - Too gelatinizing - the game can basically play itself. Also, not sure if any story even exists. Haven't really played Dungeon Siege 2 or 3.

Fable - I played the first Fable on Xbox years ago and liked it. It just doesn't make the cut. I've heard the Lost Chapters on PC is better.

Games I'm not sure about:

Eschalon: Book 1 & 2, Torchlight, Fate, Jade Empire, Knights of the Chalice, Geneforge, Avernum, Frayed Knights, Din's Curse, Nox, Silver, Revenant, Avadon, and Venetica.

So that's my very comprehensive list. If you have some thoughts about it, feel free to comment.

I think Skyrim could end up fitting between #3 and #7 for me by the time I finish it. It could possibly move higher over time, but that's just the feel I get from it now. I enjoy it quite a bit.

EDIT #1: I read someone else who mentioned Dark Sun. I had completely forgotten that game! I have some very fond memories of it, but I never finished it. Maybe it will be released on Gog in the near future.

[Nerevarine]

rossrjensen: That was an entertaining read, thanks for posting your list! I liked your explanations for why each game was in the Top Ten; thorough, honest, and objective. I wouldn't mind making my own top-10 list to add to the thread, as it's quite fun to talk about "greatest RPGs and why," but I don't know how I could possibly rank my favorites and I would probably spend way too much time agonizing over the few that I would have to leave off ;).

[rossrjensen]

Thank you. I really didn't expect writing that to be as big of a project as it turned out to be, so I can fully understand your apprehension to making your own list!

[DArtagnan]

Thank you. I really didn't expect writing that to be as big of a project as it turned out to be, so I can fully understand your apprehension to making your own list!

Interesting read indeed, and it makes one appreciate the reasons behind your choices.

I think Fallout would have been my own personal favorite, if it wasn't due to my distaste for the post-apocalyptic setting.

I love the gameplay, including the combat system, character system, and strong C&C.

But I just can't enjoy walking around a bland wasteland without tiring of it.

It's funny how such a thing can have such a profound impact. It's one of the primary reasons I couldn't get into New Vegas at all. I admire the C&C - and I like what Obsidian did to the mechanics - especially the hardcore mode. But not only is it a wasteland - it's a western desert based wasteland. It doesn't get less appealing to me than that :)

[Dajjer]

Gothic I - Only things that have held me back are the somewhat dated graphics (not a big deal to me) and the controls (enough to make me opt for Gothic II instead). But with as much as I have enjoyed the second, I expect to give it a go again, even though I have already spoiled the story.



I played G2 first and still had a blast with G1. Approach the game as you the player going back in a time machine. And with that mindset you will have an unbelievable time. Some of the areas that are nothing in G2 are something in G1. It's just a fascinating experience.

And in response to your initial question, yes Skyrim will make easily make my top 4 and will probably age to be my number one RPG of all time. I have 192 hours in and have not completed the main quest nor started the civil war quest. So much to do and its all interesting and beautiful. The diversity of quests is astounding. I'm playing a good guy and so far I have had to quit 3 quests where it was essential to kill somebody in order to move that particular story forward. And I'm not talking assassins quild. It's disturbing but Skyrim is a big world with a lot of NPCs and a lot of quests. It hard to believe these are the same folks who did Oblivion.

[clone62]

My List:

1. ULTIMA VII (BLACK GATE, SERPENT ISLE)
2. SYSTEM SHOCK 2
3. PLANESCAPE TORMENT
4. ICEWIND DALE
5. FALLOUT (1,2,3,NEW VEGAS)
6. DEUS EX
7. MASS EFFECT (1,2)
8. ULTIMA IV
9. ULTIMA IX
10. TIMES OF LORE, BAD BLOOD

[rossrjensen]

Interesting to see Ultima IX make your list. I bought it way back in the day, but I was one of those with an entirely inadequate system at the time and could not run it. I have played a bit of it over the years and thought it might be worth going back to some day. Do you think the experience would hold up today if I played it?

[EvilManagedCare]

Interesting to see Ultima IX make your list. I bought it way back in the day, but I was one of those with an entirely inadequate system at the time and could not run it. I have played a bit of it over the years and thought it might be worth going back to some day. Do you think the experience would hold up today if I played it?

This was a hugely anticipated title for me when it was released. I believe I even upgraded my PC for it. Turns out that was money NOT well spent. We all know the stories behind its development and why it was doomed to fail. I would say play it if you're an Ultima fan that absolutely must finish each game of the series. bear in mind it does not do the previous installments justice.

However, I remember really enjoying the opening sequence in the Avatar's house. For some reason that part was cool to me. Among the worst parts of the game are the poorly acted voiceover NPC conversations. Then again, I don't like any of my games to have VO except in cinematic scenes.

[Harlequin]

My list

10. Dragon Age: Origins (unique starting story for the classes, well written plot with well crafted NPCs)
9. Neverwinter Nights 2 (Fantastic story and memorable NPCs with well crafted expansions that raised the bar on storytelling)
8. Ultima Series (grand daddy of today's modern CRPGs using systems still used today)
7. Icewind Dale (well crafted story, true to a D&D PnP game in the PC)
6. Fallout: NV (Wonderful fleshed out open world and great written NPCs, story and meaty DLC)
5. Deus Ex Series (choices and consequence, well thought out plot, thinking persons CRPG, solid NPCs)
4. Skyrim (as close to a PnP RPG/world as you can have on a PC, massive, be who you want, well done main plot)
3. Vampire: Bloodlines (awesome story & masterfully written, fairly open world, many choices, true to the PnP RPG)
2. Fallout 1/2 (great open world, interesting story, unique setting, SPECIAL)
1. Baldurs Gate series (The game that got CRPGs off life support with a involving story, memorable NPCs, and a true to the books D&D world.

[dteowner]

That's a couple new lists with no mention of M&M or Wiz8. Poor, misguided souls...

[Harlequin]

That's a couple new lists with no mention of M&M or Wiz8. Poor, misguided souls…

M&M didn't offer anything new or ground breaking from what I recall. Not saying they were not good, but a top 10 list should break new ground or do what those before it did at a high level. M&M was a good and enjoyable series but not overly note worthy IMO.

Don't think I played Wiz8 so...

[dteowner]

That discussion has come around more than a few times. Innovation does not automatically make something good, nor does a lack thereof mean that it cannot be great. There's much to be said for a skillfully made peanut butter -n- jelly sandwich. The whole "gotta change the world" meme just stinks of artistic snobbery.

Not picking on you, BTW--like I said, this conversation has gone around the horn many times.

[JDR13]

M&M didn't offer anything new or ground breaking from what I recall. Not saying they were not good, but a top 10 list should break new ground or do what those before it did at a high level. M&M was a good and enjoyable series but not overly note worthy IMO.

I'm guessing you never played the earlier M&M games when they were new. I didn't either, but from what they offered I'd say they were definitely groundbreaking for their time.

[Dajjer]

Interesting to see Ultima IX make your list. I bought it way back in the day, but I was one of those with an entirely inadequate system at the time and could not run it. I have played a bit of it over the years and thought it might be worth going back to some day. Do you think the experience would hold up today if I played it?

Hey hey, I too had it on my list
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1060951405&postcount=557

note: U9 probably is the odd man out when I place Skyrim in my revamped top 10,

U9 has the basic contemporary game play dynamics that would make the game playable today. I can't really remember the story but I had fun going around the world and exploring. I too bought this game on release day only to realize, like you, that my rig was totally inadequte for the job, fortunaly back in those days you could take the game back. 2 rigs later I got the game and had a blast.

However, by the time I was playing the game, I knew it was an Ultima game in name only but I was okay with that. If GOG ever gets the nerve to sell this game with all the proper patches, I will buy and replay. Now will the game hold up for a complete replay??? I don't know - but if GOG ever gets U9, I'll give it a go.

[Igor]

Most fun I had so far with them and was hard to decide since I played more great games then just ten.

Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Lionheart: Legacy of the crusader
Dungeon cleaners/Erasers I
Dungeon siege I
Dragon Age: Origins
Might and Magic VIII: Day of the Destroyer
The Bard’s Tale (2004)
The Witcher
Dungeon Lords
Dungeons of Dredmor(Idk if this game can count as crpg but if does not then Diablo I should be in the place)

[morduun]

Another opening/greeting post, seems like a good place for them. My top 10, no particular order:

1. Starflight - Nobody has =anything= on procedural worlds like Binary Systems did, plus the freakiest, most unexpected and uncomfortable ending ever. Building up my characters, buffing up my ship, exploring farther and farther reaches of space — I played this thing for MONTHS. Literally. Still wonder if Borno got his money back.

2. Ultima IV - first time I ever saw a real alternate reward system in place in an RPG — you simply couldn't win at all if you played it like any other RPG. Great ideas, many of which were never really replicated, though I swore if I fell asleep one more time on the way to the seer I was going to lose at least an eighth.

3. Might & Magic VI - Epic, huge and fun as hell. Hack & slash candy, but VERY good candy.

4. Planescape: Torment - nothing I can add here that hasn't already been said. Wish there were more, kind of glad there isn't.

5. Dungeon Master - Grand-daddy of every dungeon crawl ever since, equal parts adrenaline, desperation and fear. Running out of light yet? Or water? And pass the worm steak. Yeah.

6. Ultima IX - Yeah, I know, controversial choice, but it's here for two reasons. One, the things they =tried= to do were immense, even if they failed, and two, some of the things they =did= accomplish were awesome. Yeah the game design was underwhelming; yeah the technical requirements were massive and there were more bugs in it than an Australian termite mound. But the first time I stood under a crystal dome in the ruins of New Magincia and watched the rain fall on the dome above me as the sun set, I understood where they'd tried to go with the game, and it was awe-inspiring. They get huge points for that.

7. Deus Ex - Great story, great setting, great delivery, and just enough RPG elements supported by the gameplay to make it juicy. It's borderline RPG in many ways but it was such a good hybrid it deserves a spot here.

8. Betrayal at Krondor - just, wow. Huge world, massive story, solid storytelling, fun and frustrating tactical challenges. You name it, it's in here somewhere. Even bad wigs (especially bad wigs?).

9. Arx Fatalis - I know, I should probably have Ultima Underworld in here instead, but I liked the story better, the gameplay was a lot smoother and more fun, and it was just a bit creepier and more atmospheric because the setting was so thoroughly dire.

10. Dragon Age: Origins - such a triumphant return to party-based storytelling, such good ideas, so completely betrayed by what happened at Bioware afterwards. A brilliant opportunity, shamefully squandered. At least the replay value is high.

Honorable mentions: Fallout (loved them all but the setting completely demoralized me), Daggerfall (best of the Bethesdas, I think), Neverwinter Nights (awful stock modules but amazing community creations), Mass Effect / ME 2 (everyone has their guilty pleasures), The Witcher (basically a tie for #10 on the list) and Zangband (which I still play when I'm feeling masochistic).

[Dajjer]

Welcome Morduun.

WOW, I read the wiki on Starflight - what a story and what an ending. Sorta wish I hadn't done it but I don't think I would have ever gotten around to playing the game. Over at the Octopus Overlords web site, there is a thread there called "What one game would you like to see remade", and Starflight got a lot of votes.

Poor Might & Magic IV. It was my number one for a long time then it got bumped by Gothic 2 and then got bumped by Skyrim. Still, a great game and I wish more games would incorporate flying as and end game feature. My former number one Wizardry can't make the list-it just to cumbersome for this modern day gamer (in that game if you died you had to create a party to get your dead characters)

And Betryal at Krondor - the one feature I wish Skyrim would have incorporated into the game was my Bards ability to play in Taverns. They sorta did it in Two Worlds 2 although for some reason the developers felt they had to turn it into a mini game. But BAK had you playing in Taverns and when you start off your musical career you are total crap - that was wonderful.

As you can see you are not alone in you game love for U9. The scene that got it for me was a nite time scene by some whimsical cottages. There were glow bugs, shinny plants and lighted windows - just blew me away.

anyways - keep posting

[JDR13]

And Betryal at Krondor - the one feature I wish Skyrim would have incorporated into the game was my Bards ability to play in Taverns. They sorta did it in Two Worlds 2 although for some reason the developers felt they had to turn it into a mini game. But BAK had you playing in Taverns and when you start off your musical career you are total crap - that was wonderful.

I'd really like to play through BAK one day. I've heard so much praise about it that I know it must be a great game. The problem is that I just can't get past the graphics. I normally don't have any problems adjusting to older visuals, but BAK is so pixelated that I can't even tell what I'm looking at sometimes. I'm still hoping that someday someone will give it a graphical ugrade.

[GothicGothicness]

When you play long enough you'll forget about the graphics :)

Superb game!

[AdamH]

Okay, so, here's my first post after years of lurking.

My top 10, based on an occasionally unhealthy CRPG habit of about three decades:

1) Angband: You could argue this back to Rogue, but this is the roguelike I spent the most amount of time on (and dozens of its derivatives). It has the largest amount of actual game-play content than just about any commercial release, and it is absolutely free. Some really extraordinary variants out there too. Part of what really appealed to me was the challenge level of it. It takes quite awhile to master, and satisfies the inner loot whore in all of us.

2) Wizardry series: Yeah, I'm cheating by putting several games in one position. This really set the bar for me as a kid for the kinds of games I enjoyed the most. Loved the challenge of the first three, and loved the interactivity/puzzles in Bane the most (that's the 6th).

3) Bard's Tale I & II: Yeah, cheating again by doubling up games. Absolutely loved what these games did with the Ultima/Wizardry formula. So much good content, challenging combat, riddles, mapping--just plain fun. The third one I believe had an automap feature and really seemed to dumb down the series for me. Plus an exploitable experience bug in the beginning and my complete lack of willpower in abusing it ruined most of the game for me.

4) Might and Magic 1 & 2: Again, loved the challenge of these games, the vast amount of content sans empty space (unlike most modern games that just manage to make lots of emptiness in their open world settings). I remember getting all excited looking at the maps that came with these games, because every square was packed with something interesting. I enjoyed all the other M&M games as well, but never felt the same level of challenge as in these two. Incidentally, I didn't beat either of them--got close to the end but gave up for some reason or another. I seem to remember in M&M II hating that encounters scaled a bit with levels--every random fight seemed to have +256 of something and I just got tired. But damn, what a game up until that point. :)

5) Wasteland: First non-fantasy CPRG that blew me away. Great content, puzzles, encounters, skill system, just lots of fun. Incinerating my entire party in a nuclear meltdown was an interesting little memory as well.

6) Planetscape Torment: Great story, writing, encounters, variety, humor, etc. Nice to play a game not catering to your average middle schooler. Definitely a favorite.

7) Baldur's Gate 2: I enjoyed the first, but as a AD&D nerd for many years, this game really nailed the high-level experience. Challenging fights and everything. Sad to say I never played the Throne of Bhaal expansion.

8) Deathlord: One of the few CRPGs that actually kicked my ass. I got really far in it too, but it was just absolutely brutal. I even returned to it on an Apple emulator some years later, got farther, but some nasty map puzzle made me shelve it for eternity. Still, loved the Oriental-themed take on the Ultima formula. And it had really cool new spells (this back in the days where the manuals were actually worth reading).

9) Ultima II-IV: I think II was actually my real favorite. Just something cool about stealing a phase blaster from a merchant and rocking the world with it for awhile. Loved how Ultima II mixed science and fantasy. III was fun for the variety it built upon the Ultima II formula, while IV was just revolutionary for the way it made you actually care about your decision making process. While I played most of them after IV, I didn't like how they kind of got away from imaginative fantasy to more of a Arthurian themed, real-world simulation. I like my fantasy to be a bit more escapist than that.

10) Eye of the Beholder: Just an awesome application of the D&D rules to a 1st person perspective. Plus the inclusion of an in-game contest on its release didn't hurt crazy players like me that prided themselves on finishing games in single, marathon play sessions. Yeah, that notion ended in high school, in case you're wondering. But 48 hours of nothing but quality CRPG goodness was as good as it got back in those days.

Honorable mentions:

Dungeon Master: I played this after EoB, not sure which was first offhand, but I loved what it did with the Wizardry formula, its skill building/spell casting system, challenging maps, etc.

Etrian's Odyssey I-III: Okay, I know, not a computer RPG but I never did specify what the "C" meant in my post, did I? This game takes the challenge of old-school and makes it fresh again. I love its built in map-building tools as well, and it comes from the days of quality over quantity. Great recent find for me.

Dark Spire: Another console game I'm slipping in this list, but again, like Etrian's Odyssey, does old school right. A few lame puzzles here or there, but overall one of the best game experiences I've had in years.

Demon Souls: I love the atmosphere of the game. Not terribly fond of action games and especially platforming elements (this had a few). Didn't finish it either--got fairly close, but couldn't beat those two demons on the narrow bridge--apparently this game punishes you for repeated failure by making the thing that kicked your ass even harder the next time. Died so many times to those two that it's probably better to start the game over. Haven't bought the sequel yet because I liked the first one too much to pass over it without winning.

Pool of Radiance: My favorite of the SSI Gold Box series. Just a great game, fairly lengthy, good character development progress, encounter variety, etc.

Phantasy 1-3: I just remember really enjoying these as a kid. Something cool about smashing a statue of Zeus, it coming to life, and getting to fight him. And even though the graphics were lousy, they do scaling right.

Phantasy Star 1-4: Somewhat challenging console games, fun character development.

Gothic 1 & 2: I know people are huge fans of these games on this site. I enjoyed the first couple quite a bit. Didn't feel different enough after those--I really like a sense of newness in my games--undiscovered creatures, areas, items, etc.

Anachronox: Great puzzles (Bepidris!), humor, combat. A consolesque game on a PC. Wish this would have had a sequel.

Fun trip down memory lane. Thanks for indulging.

-- Adam

[Dajjer]

That is so true, great gameplay and great story. The last time I gave BAK a shot (about 3 years ago) I was thinking how the game had a George Seurat type quality (A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte). And perhaps the game designers actually made the game look like that on purpose. BAK clearly looks vastly different than Might & Magic 5, Ultima Underworld 2 and Land of Lore 1 which also all came out in 1993.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Seurat

[morduun]

Dajjer, I don't think anyone should feel bad about reading the wiki on Starflight; trying to play that game on the PC now — all those hours at 320x240 with only cyan, magenta and white as your friends is almost certainly beyond me, too (yeah, I know there's a Genesis version for emus — but you know how it goes when it's not 'your' version). That said I would LOVE to see a real spiritual successor with modern interface sensibilities and a graphical update. SC2 came close, and I love that game too, but I'm not really sure it quite qualifies as an RPG in the strictest sense.

And Gothic's right about the graphics on BAK; it's weird but they really do 'go good' if you play for long enough. Hard to explain; maybe Dajjer's right about the art in a sense. I'm not quite sure I'm ready to completely agree with the Seurat observation (though it is an interesting one), but the fact that the art's been consistently directed (ignore the wigs please) contributes a lot.

Anachronox! Completely forgot that one, thanks Adam. Definitely deserves a spot on the honorable mention list. Really wanted a sequel there too — or one more bugfix. Just one!

[rossrjensen]

Very nice lists AdamH and Morduun. I like reading people's favorites that have more "experience" (for lack of a better term) playing RPG's than I do.

It appears a few people have a soft spot for Ultima IX. One of these days I am going to make a run of it. I fired it up recently and was pretty impressed with how well the graphics have held up. They're not amazing, but pretty solid still. I need to play Ultima VII first though :P

[Harlequin]

I decided to expand and make a entire blog post about my top 10, you can read it here (http://www.wodnews.net/Articles/Blogs/tabid/82/Article/45/harlequins-top-10-crpgs-of-all-time.aspx), enjoy!

[Dajjer]

I decided to expand and make a entire blog post about my top 10, you can read it here (http://www.wodnews.net/Articles/Blogs/tabid/82/Article/45/harlequins-top-10-crpgs-of-all-time.aspx), enjoy!

Okay Harlequin, now that you did your blog duty - just go ahead and Cut&Paste your list here. :-)

BTW, I too feel a little guilty about putting not only Skyrim but Fallout Vegas on any revised top ten by me. But sometimes when you're playing a game your realize at the very time you're playing the game that it's a great game. It happened to me with Might & Magic 6, No One Lives Forever, X-Com, Fallout Vegas and now Skyrim.

[Drithius]

I find it odd how people always tend to mention M&M VI, but rarely M&M VII... despite them being very similar :D

[Dajjer]

I think MM7 has been properly given its due here. M&M7 had that find and then furnish your castle feature that was pretty unique in its time. I loved M&M7 but for me it just came out too close to 6 and pretty much seemed like and expansion to the M&M6 world - it really did not seem like a different game at all. AND I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. But when I pick between the two I have to give the nod to 6.

Now if Skyrim has a sequel next year and it take place in Elsweyr or Valenwood with the exact same game mechanics as Skyrim, I will be there. But Skyrim will get my vote as the better game.

[Fluent]

Does CRPG stand for Computer Roleplaying Game? I never knew what that C meant.

Anyway, here's a list of my top 10 RPGs ever, subject to definitely change depending on my mood:

10 - Super Mario RPG - First RPG to take place in the Mario world. It was great that the main villain wasn't Bowser this time, and that he could actually join your party in the fight. Some great music to be found here too, such as Geno's Maze Theme, and others. Also was innovative in the fact it added some platforming gaming to an RPG. Brilliant game.

9 - Sukoden 3 - Had a very interesting story telling system in which a similar story was being told from 3 unique vantage points. It really made you care about the main characters as their lives intermixed. Classic Suikoden gameplay with a possible 108 party members. Gotta find 'em all! Great game.

8 - Tactics Ogre - Let Us Cling Together - The best turn-based strategy game ever. Had more depth in the gameplay than Final Fantasy Tactics, and if a character died in battle, they died forever! That was very innovative and hardcore at the time. I will never forget playing in a way that ensured all my main characters wouldn't die. Had a very cool political story with a few branching choices to be made, and based on your decisions certain party members would or wouldn't join you. A very good game.

7 - Suikoden - While Suikoden 3 is probably the better game, the original Suikoden shines as being the first game in existence where you could collect up to 108 possible party members, hidden all throughout the land. At the time it was simply incredibly fun to collect them all and try them all in battle. If you found the right combination of characters it would create a special attack you could choose in battle, and half the fun was trying to find these special combinations. Also told a cool political story and had fun gameplay. A classic RPG.

6 - Lost Odyssey - Just a flat out beautiful game. A love letter to classic RPG gaming, such as the classic Final Fantasy series. First RPG I've ever played where the main characters are actually immortal and can't die, and this leads to many interesting twists along the way. Beautiful story sequences told through short stories actually made me tear up once or twice. The music is equally brilliant as well. Overall, a gem of an RPG.

5 - Final Fantasy 6 - A great JRPG where you played the main role as a magical Esper character. Had an interesting cast of characters, a great villain in Kefka, and an incredibly epic "twist" which changed the entire game world completely. Up to this point I'd never seen that type of twist in a video game before, and it was just simply epic. A game I can still play today and have lots of fun.

4 - Skyrim - It may have just came out, but Skyrim is easily one of the best games I've ever played. The atmosphere, the immersion factor, the exploration, the sights and sounds, everything about this game is mesmerizing. Probably the most immersive game I've ever played, as I can just lose myself for hours at a time in this game. Great game.

3 - Morrowind - The first TES game I had the pleasure of playing. I'll never forget my dad buying this game at a yard sale, coming home and popping it in the Xbox, not knowing what to expect, and being completely blown away by my first open-world experience ever. The game was massive. The world was alien. There were so many secrets to uncover and things to discover in this game, it just blew my mind. There is a level of hand-placement of both loot and enemies that makes this game very special.

2 - Final Fantasy 7 - This is probably part nostalgia, but FF7 also captured my imagination as a child and didn't let go. I'll always remember Aeris, and Sephiroth, and Cloud, and the Weapon enemies (that took me forever to finally beat them), and Cid, and I could go on forever with this game. I'll never forget Chocobo racing, and breeding a Chocobo in order to get all the secret loot that was hidden in the near impossible to reach places. My first ever game where the time played read 99:99:99, for the majority of time I played it! A true classic.

1 - Chrono Trigger - This game just mesmerized me as a kid, and still does to this day. Fantastic graphics, brilliant music that I still play to this day, a very unique and imaginative story, memorable and lovable characters, fun gameplay, this game has everything. A work of art. Unmatched by any RPG I've ever played, nothing has since captured my imagination as much as this game. And to think it was all done on the lowly SNES.

Honorable mentions - Blue Dragon, Diablo, Super Mario RPG, Final Fantasy Tactics, Chrono Cross

[dteowner]

I think MM7 has been properly given its due here. M&M7 had that find and then furnish your castle feature that was pretty unique in its time. I loved M&M7 but for me it just came out too close to 6 and pretty much seemed like and expansion to the M&M6 world - it really did not seem like a different game at all. AND I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. But when I pick between the two I have to give the nod to 6.MM6 had a bigger world and better dungeons, but I still prefer MM7. The thing that made MM7 better was the extra complexity to party development. With MM6, every character could eventually be equally good at every skill. Once you got past the first dozen levels or so, your choice of starting classes was pointless. In MM7, with the expert/master/GM caps tied to each class, you had to think about how you made up your party and (much like Wiz8) inevitably you couldn't have the best of everything in one party. Choices like that made character and party development far more interesting and also gave the game much better replayability.

[Dajjer]

Might and Magic 7 also had that great mini game Arcomage.

I bought that game digitally from 3DO - my computer crashed and when I tried to re-down load on my new rig - 3DO was nowever to be found :'(

so yeah Might & Magic 6 is better
and I am petty

[bkrueger]

Might and Magic 7 also had that great mini game Arcomage.

I bought that game digitally from 3DO - my computer crashed and when I tried to re-down load on my new rig - 3DO was nowever to be found :'(


You surely re-bought it from gog?

[HiddenX]

free Arcomage remake (http://www.gatewayheaven.com/projects/arcomage/)

[GothicGothicness]

8 - Tactics Ogre - Let Us Cling Together - The best turn-based strategy game ever. Had more depth in the gameplay than Final Fantasy Tactics, and if a character died in battle, they died forever! That was very innovative and hardcore at the time. I will never forget playing in a way that ensured all my main characters wouldn't die. Had a very cool political story with a few branching choices to be made, and based on your decisions certain party members would or wouldn't join you. A very good game.

Glad to see this game on here, fantastic game... there is remake out for the PSP.

1 - Chrono Trigger - This game just mesmerized me as a kid, and still does to this day. Fantastic graphics, brilliant music that I still play to this day, a very unique and imaginative story, memorable and lovable characters, fun gameplay, this game has everything. A work of art. Unmatched by any RPG I've ever played, nothing has since captured my imagination as much as this game. And to think it was all done on the lowly SNES.

Another fantastic game, glad to see it as well on the list.

[JDR13]

Does CRPG stand for Computer Roleplaying Game? I never knew what that C meant.

After seeing your list, I don't think the "C" is necessary. ;)

[Dajjer]

You surely re-bought it from gog?

I didn't see Acromage on GOG.
M&M7 yes - Acromage no

3DO was originally going to release Acromage as a separate game. This was during the popularity of Magic and Pokemon. But they backed off of those plans and just threw it into M&M7. However a few years later and they did release Acromage as a separte game. But I was only able to find it digitally at the 3DO site. Thus when 3DO went down I was unable to get the activation codes.

I guess for 3 bucks I could go a head and get M&M 7 and just play the game
in one of the Taverns - And I guess saving the game near a tavern could reduce the load times - Let me ponder this . . . .

[Harlequin]

Okay Harlequin, now that you did your blog duty - just go ahead and Cut&Paste your list here. :-)

BTW, I too feel a little guilty about putting not only Skyrim but Fallout Vegas on any revised top ten by me. But sometimes when you're playing a game your realize at the very time you're playing the game that it's a great game. It happened to me with Might & Magic 6, No One Lives Forever, X-Com, Fallout Vegas and now Skyrim.

I did 2 pages back, I simply expanded the reasons for said list in my blog. But the basic list s the same. :)

Someone mentioned Starflight and that was a very good sci-fi CRPG in it's day. A huge amount of stats, exploring and choices to be had. If I did a top #15 list both that and Bard's Tale would have found their way on the list.

I feel quite justified in including NV and Skyrim on my list. Both very different reasons however. NV is a high bar of writing, story and choices in the main plot. Skyrim is the ultimate sandbox CRPG, just like a PnP RPG. Where you can pretty much go and do anything and become whoever you want. Near total freedom.

[Fluent]

Glad to see this game on here, fantastic game… there is remake out for the PSP.



Another fantastic game, glad to see it as well on the list.

Word. If I ever get a PSP I will definitely pick up the remake. Tactics Ogre was badass. There was a large amount of joinable party members which is always cool. And depending on your actions, certain ones would or wouldn't join, and from what I understand the story was completely different based on which choices you made. Very innovative. Just a badass game.

Chrono was the first game I ever racked up over $20 worth of late fees with as a child. And $20 at the time was big money, especially when it cost $3 to rent a game for like 3 days. I kept it overdue for a month and racked up that bill. My mom paid it and actually wasn't too pissed off at me. I used to get up earlier in the morning and play it before I went to school too. I loved that game. I just couldn't get enough of it.

So is someone gonna tell me what the C in CRPG stands for?

[bkrueger]

I didn't see Acromage on GOG.
M&M7 yes - Acromage no


My bad, I thought you were talking about M&M 7. :blush:

Luckily HidenX already gave a link for Acromage.

When I want to play it I simply start a late save game from M&M7, where I have fast access to all taverns.

[Fnord]

So is someone gonna tell me what the C in CRPG stands for?

It stands for computer (though it also works for console). It is there to differentiate it from pen & paper RPGs

[Fluent]

It stands for computer (though it also works for console). It is there to differentiate it from pen & paper RPGs

Thank you sir. Are you also a Robert Anton Wilson fan?

[Fnord]

Yep, I'm a big fan of his books, The Illuminatus trilogy in particular. My screen name is a bit of a play on my real name as well.

[Fluent]

Cool. RAW was a genius. My favorite books of his are Cosmic Trigger and Prometheus Rising, but I have pretty much every book he's ever written, and I have never found one that I didn't enjoy immensely.

[HiddenX]

I suggest to make this thread a sticky.

[Siegmar]

1. Realms of Arcania: Star Trail
2. Realms of Arcania: Blades of Destiniy
3. Wizardry 7
4. Dark Souls
5. Demon Souls
6. Ultima Underworld
7. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines
8. Fallout
9. Fallout 2
10. Morrowind

honourable mention:

-Neverwinter Nights: NOT for its lacklustre campaign but the awesome editor and countless great modules it spawned

"dream" RPG(s):

party-based:

a new game like RoA in terms of gameplay except this time around with a more interesting setting (something morrowindy rather than generic fantasy) and obviously better graphics (could be very well 2D though - would still work great for this type of game). add an easy to use NWN-like toolset for perfection.

just-one-character:

Dark Souls like game on PC with a TES-like construction kit.

[akarthis]

wow,
i read a top ten list a few posts above and said when did i write this?
I never did.......Some really great games in those posts! Well done

[Dajjer]

I suggest to make this thread a sticky.

What I like about this thread is that while it is a top 10 thread, there is a lot of commentary going on that keeps it fresh. And the first post is dated in 2006

[Kurosawa-Fan]

1. Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar - Like some others have posted, the one that got me into RPGs. Back in the day I remember keeping a journal throughout, I was so engrossed. Combine that with a unique plotline and characters I actually gave a damn about (Iolo! Dupre!) and you have a true classic.

2. Ultima VI: The False Prophet - Definitely a soft spot for this one. I remember it being quite a technological jump from Ultimas I-V (though not as much as VII), but I was completely caught up in the story.

3. Fallout - I found Fallout 2 something of a disappointment compared with this, though it could just be I have fonder memories of playing this one. As others have mentioned, it made you feel that your actions truly had consequences. And I fondly recall a playthrough were I butchered every person I came across. Success!

4. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 - Tough but more rewarding than virtually any other CRPG out there (I haven't played Planescape Torment yet, much to my embarrassment).

5. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines - Am digging all the love for this underrated gem. Compulsively replayable and genuinely gripping, with a fantastic atmosphere. Writing this, I'm tempted to reinstall and play it again.

6. Deus Ex - Though I almost always opt for a sniper/shooter character, the number of ways you can complete most missions is always an eye-opener. I've heard Human Revolutions is pretty good too, certainly better than Deus Ex 2, but this would be hard to top.

7. System Shock 2 - Probably the most terrifying gaming experience of my life and Shodan is one of gaming's best villains.

8. Ultima Underworld 1 & 2 - Truly innovative for their time, they were two of the most addictive dungeon crawlers I can remember (though the Eye of the Beholder and Lands of Lore games were great, too).

9. Dungeon Master I and II - I still remember these fondly from my Amiga days, whittling away countless hours.

10. Fallout 3 - Far better than I could have expected by moving the Fallout franchise into three dimensions. Still playing this and its DLC to death.

Honorable mentions: Lands of Lore, Ultima VII, Icewind Dale 1 & 2, Elder Scrolls III - V

Underrated: Two Worlds (despite bugs and horrible voice acting)

Overrated: The Witcher, Divine Divinity (ducks)

[Relayer]

Overrated: Divine Divinity (ducks)

OH no you didn't!!!! More like severly underrated!!!

But I'll forgive you for being a Kurosawa fan though and having a cool avatar.

[Kurosawa-Fan]

OH no you didn't!!!! More like severly underrated!!!

But I'll forgive you for being a Kurosawa fan though and having a cool avatar.

Thanks. I just finished DD the other day and although I liked it, I don't quite get the overwhelming love for it. Perhaps it was because I played as an archer and found many parts of the game frustratingly difficult.

[JDR13]

OH no you didn't!!!! More like severly underrated!!!


Thanks. I just finished DD the other day and although I liked it, I don't quite get the overwhelming love for it. Perhaps it was because I played as an archer and found many parts of the game frustratingly difficult.

I'm more upset about him saying The Witcher was overrated. :)

I did my first full playthrough of Divine Divinity last year, and I really enjoyed it for the most part. I thought the earlier stages of the game were much, much better than the later stages though, and the game was too long. That final area was a real drag, and it brought my overall opinion of the game down a bit. DD might have been in my top ten if not for that last 20%.

[Asdraguuhl]

I played Beyond Divinity (the sequel), which I absolutely hated so I was skeptical about Divine Divinity but I heard good things about it, particularly the humour and original quests. So I decided to see what I had missed and got it through GOG and played it recently.

It is indeed true that it has humour and witty dialogues, which is not too common, and some interesting quests and I enjoyed these aspects of the game. But apart from that, it is way too much of a hack and slash festival and I really dislike that type of games.

I knew beforehand that it was combat heavy so I played it on easy to just click my way through battles and focus on the quests. I played as a pure mage and I realised early on that I had crippled my character through unfortunate levelling choices making the game quite difficult in certain parts (Many foes had elemental resistances making my spells useless). Later, the game became easier due to two well chosen skills but the two Josephina boss battle were absolutely ridiculous, even on easy. Her hell spikes would literally kill me in 1 second. The only way I could win was to spam health potions during the hell spikes, run 2 cm away, cast invisibility, and then approach her and cast the spiralling discs as they do not seem to be affected by elemental resistances. But even so, this tactic would be too dependent on timing and luck so I had to reload many many times. (If I didn't have the invisibility spell she would have been impossible to kill with my character build).

After the ritual at the council, the game goes downhill and IMO becomes a worthless hack'n slasher. I just cast invisibility and ran towards the objectives and saw that I was running literally through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of enemies. The mere thought of having to fight my way through all those enemies made me shudder.

My verdict: 20% good and 80% bad.

[Relayer]

M&M didn't offer anything new or ground breaking from what I recall. Not saying they were not good, but a top 10 list should break new ground or do what those before it did at a high level. M&M was a good and enjoyable series but not overly note worthy IMO.

Don't think I played Wiz8 so…

You think NWN 2, IWD and Dragon Age Origins are groundbreaking but not M & M?
That's nuts. There's nothing in any of those games that haven't been done before.

Sure, the origins in DA were nice but these didn't make the game. What was great about DA:O was that it was somewhat of a return to the Baldur's Gate games of old after Bioware's KOTOR, Jade Empire and ME games.

IWD was a modern (at the time) gold box game. Basically Baldur's Gate with emphasis on combat instead of story/characters.

NWN 2 was more of the above.

And I loved IWD and DA:O so not that I have anything against those two (IWD is in my top 10, underrated).

I only played the M & M games in the last couple of years and only recently really got into M & M 4 but from my knowledge of games of that era (I've been gaming since the early 80s) M & M would have been groundbreaking for it's non-linear format COMBINED with it's humongous environments.

The later games also allowed you to switch from TB to real time if I'm not mistaken.

How about being able to combine M & M IV and V into a single game (World Of Xeen)? That was different. Still is. Would be amazing to combine Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

[Relayer]

I thought the earlier stages of the game were much, much better than the later stages though, and the game was too long. That final area was a real drag, and it brought my overall opinion of the game down a bit. DD might have been in my top ten if not for that last 20%.

After the ritual at the council, the game goes downhill and IMO becomes a worthless hack'n slasher. I just cast invisibility and ran towards the objectives and saw that I was running literally through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of enemies. The mere thought of having to fight my way through all those enemies made me shudder.

My verdict: 20% good and 80% bad.

No argument here - I agree, game goes downhill towards the end.

Still, like KOTOR2, before that point it's a great game. I loved that the world was pretty cohesive - you had an invasion and saw signs of it everywhere. Some of the quests were creative and there were a ton of them everywhere. And I loved that the world was huge and you could pretty much go anywhere. I also loved that it didn't take itself seriously. Music was also great.

So yeah, I think 80% is a fair score - what I take issue with and why I say it's underrated is that most people dismiss it as a Diablo clone and the combat is similar but it has more in common with Baldur's Gate or an Ultima than Diablo.

[rossrjensen]

Asdraguuhl, interesting experience there. Funny, I played a battle mage and just hacked my way through those hundreds of enemies! I thought it was fun, but sometimes I would be just traversing the world killing hundreds of orcs when I would suddenly run into a very difficult enemy and get killed right away, just to realize I hadn't saved in hours. It's not as fun the second time around….

[BillSeurer]

Divine Divinity also suffered from a terrible design flaw where it was possible to get to the end and it was impossible to win the final battle. You had to have made certain design choices in your character in order to finish.

[Asdraguuhl]

What I liked about DD is the humour and the fact that it doesn't take itself too seriously as Relayer has stated. It has adult humour, sarcasm, self-mockery etc., which I can appreciate and this alone sets itself apart from many other games.

It is just that it has too much hack'n slash combat, which IMO negates the good parts. Even within civilised areas you are constantly attacked by snakes, boars, bees, etc. Hell, somehow I even pissed off all the cats as they suddenly became hostile towards me.

[Asdraguuhl]

Divine Divinity also suffered from a terrible design flaw where it was possible to get to the end and it was impossible to win the final battle. You had to have made certain design choices in your character in order to finish.

I agree that your success in some boss battles depends highly on character builds but what specific design choices are you referring to?

[BillSeurer]

I agree that your success in some boss battles depends highly on character builds but what specific design choices are you referring to?

I am not sure, I only played partway through. My daughter got to the end and couldn't finish. She went out and read "the boards" and found that certain builds of characters could not beat the final boss battle.

[rossrjensen]

Not an issue I encountered, but I could see it happening...not necessarily just with a bad build, but a bad build at too low of a level. About 4/5ths through the main quest, you are transported to a different map altogether. You can't go back to the original (much larger) world map. Since Divine Divinity has no re-spawns, you are limited to a certain amount of experience that you can receive. If you were not powerful enough and your build was not that strong, I could see the final 1/5th being impossible to beat.

[JDR13]

About 4/5ths through the main quest, you are transported to a different map altogether. You can't go back to the original (much larger) world map.

Yeah, that caught me off guard, and I wish there had been some kind of warning beforehand. There were a few quests I hadn't completed in the other maps, but I didn't feel like going back to an earlier save by the time I realized it.

That final 1/5 should have been cut from the game entirely, imo.

[Relayer]

JDR13, you'll be happy to notewhat I've changed my stance somewhat towards BG1. I started playing it again last year and although I only got about halfway before my HD crashed and I lost my save, I really did enjoy it more than I did the first time. I think it helped that I played it with the widescreen and BG TUTU mods - looked better and less clunk feeling.

Gameplay wise, I'd forgotten how much fun it was in general. I still think BG2 was better - ok, maybe just more to my liking, definitely more polished and prettier, and EPIC. But it's probably best to play through the whole story from beginning to end.

That reminds me that I still haven't played TOB which I picked up 2 years ago (possibly 3). Just got BG on GOG with the recent sale along with IWD, BG2, and PST, and Arcanum + Div Div with December's GOG sale so don't know when I'll find the time to replay BG (or any of the others, heh), but I definitely know I want to.

[Relayer]

Oh, and related to topic: Too lazy to look through my list from 2007, but I don't think it's changed much since then. I just can't remember any RPGs coming out in this period worthy enough to make my list. To be fair, I have missed a fair amount of RPGs but the ones I've played the past five years haven't been too wonderful.

I guess I could pick ME2 but I played it on the 360 and really it plays more like a console game than a classic CRPG. And I loved it but top 10 material? Don't think so. Dragon Age Origins comes close though - I loved it. But would have to replay it in a few years to be sure.

So, any RPGs to come out in the last 5 years to make anyone's Top 10 presently?

This will give me an idea of what I should play that I missed :)

[Dajjer]

So, any RPGs to come out in the last 5 years to make anyone's Top 10 presently?


Yes, if I were to redo my list Skyrim and Fallout Vegas would move into my top 10. My honorable mentions would include Deus Ex HR, and Venetica.

[20mithrandir]

My honorable mentions would include Deus Ex HR, and Venetica.
I can definitely agree on both games. Venetica was one of the games in the last about ten years that surprised me the most. I still don't understand the lack of coverage it got form the media.

And speaking of Top 10 lists, don't you forget The Witcher 2 ...

[JDR13]

So, any RPGs to come out in the last 5 years to make anyone's Top 10 presently?

Fallout 3

The vanilla game is average, but with the right mods I found it to be a fantastic experience. Very large and immersive world to explore, and I loved the atmosphere.

The Witcher 2 and Dragon Knight Saga were both very good as well. Not sure if they're Top 10 for me but they would be close. I haven't played the EE version of Witcher 2 though..

[Dajjer]

I can definitely agree on both games. Venetica was one of the games in the last about ten years that surprised me the most. I still don't understand the lack of coverage it got form the media.

And speaking of Top 10 lists, don't you forget The Witcher 2 …

I didn't - I liked Witcher 1 a lot more. OTH,I love what the developers are doing with the franchise but for me the first one was a better game experience. As wonky as that game was.

as far as Venetica, I might have to get that game on Steam if it ever gets real cheap just so I can get some screen capture shots. It doesn't have the magnificent realism of Skyrim but some of the cartoony city vistas are amazing. I am right now chuckling to myself remembering those guys who help our heroine with locks and their back story - just a great game.

BTW, the heroines of Venetica and Beyond Good and Evil looks like they might be twin sisters. And both played in good games that were sorta under appreciated. hmmm. Go figure

[CountChocula]

So, any RPGs to come out in the last 5 years to make anyone's Top 10 presently?

This will give me an idea of what I should play that I missed :)

I would include Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas, Fallout 3 (with mods that enhance the RP experience, as JDR recommends above), Dragon Age: Origins, also just started playing Risen, so it's too early to say but it seems like it might possibly make the list, ignoring some tech issues.

I also enjoyed Witcher 1 quite a bit more than Witcher 2, which I stopped playing after about 9 or 10 hours. Dragon Age II was somewhat underrated, IMO, but it didn't live up to the promise of its predecessor and it is certainly not among the top ten CRPGs. Never played any of the Deus: Ex games.

[Relayer]

Fallout 3: I actually did really like this one after I gave it a second chance just last year on the 360 and really enjoyed it. But only put about 20 hours into it, still on my backlog.

Fallout NV: Got this for 360 as a x-mas gift, only put in about 5 hours into it but really liking it a lot as well.

Skyrim: Definitely has a chance to be on my list. But again, got it for my b-day a few days after release and have still only put in about 40 hours. "About 40 hours" is enough to finish many games but as you all know in Skyrim it's getting started! Need to get back to it soon as I was really loving it.

Still haven't played any of the Witcher games. My 7 year old PC finally died last year and I haven't replaced it yet and I doubt this laptop will run even the first game.

I've seen the name "Venetica" but really know nothing about this one so will definitely check it out.