Dragon Age - E3 Hands On @ Joystiq

[txa1265]

Couldn't get the news editor working to post it that way for some reason, so wanted to highlight it here:

Read the whole thing here (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/04/hands-on-dragon-age-origins/):

Uneven seems like the right way to describe Dragon Age: Origins at this stage. There are no major stumbling blocks and there's no reason to think that BioWare won't deliver an intriguing plot to make it all worth it, but it feels bizarre to have such a lukewarm response to one of the studio's games. It seems like a solid, if somewhat adolescent, fantasy RPG, but it feels insufficient in the face of BioWare's previous accomplishments.

Not the most encouraging stuff I have ever read ...

[Prime Junta]

Sounds like he was really turned off by the marketing. Let's hope the comments on gameplay are simply colored by that.

It'd really be the pits if this game failed, though -- because it would "prove" that old-style AAA cRPG's can't succeed. (OTOH if it really is as juvenile as the guy says, it might be equally bad if it succeeds, since that would "prove" that old-style cRPG's succeed provided they're Dark!, Gritty!, Mature!, and have lots of gore and boobs.)

[DArtagnan]

This is what happens when you don't know your target audience and won't admit to enthusiasts that you're not REALLY targeting them.

Clearly, this is exactly what some of us feared it would be - and though hype from developers on this board has been strong, biased or delusional, there's little apart from a true miracle, as in the game coming out and being a genuinely deep and mature CRPG, that can convince me this is anything but a typical AAA attempt at being "deep" - only with worse than usual marketing.

Not really sure what this campaign is trying to say, but it's extremely efficient in keeping me FAR away from the hype and likely the game itself.

[zakhal]

Massmarket game made for everyone and noone specifically.

[Smorri]

I watched the demo and spent some time playing it at yesterday. During the demo they were pushing the interaction between the party members. The example they used was that your female cleric 'likes' you, you can walk over to your female wizard and (via conversation choices) get her into bed (insert short cutscene), then walk back the cleric and smooth things out or break up with her. IMHO, it was taking the character interaction of Baldur's Gate and taking it to the level of the Sims. Not for me, and maybe where the "adolescent" comment was coming from. Playing the game, the combat and feel of the game was of a console game. Then again, maybe I'm too old school. :)

[zakhal]

. The example they used was that your female cleric 'likes' you, you can walk over to your female wizard and (via conversation choices) get her into bed (insert short cutscene)

Sounds like somone who has watched "dorkness rising" .

[Dgaider]

IMHO, it was taking the character interaction of Baldur's Gate and taking it to the level of the Sims. Not for me, and maybe where the "adolescent" comment was coming from.
Just to interject a comment based on the above:

I'm not privy to the content of that presentation, but it sounds like what was being shown was the end portion of a very long romance plot between the player character and two party members (and therefore lacking the context of the previous plots that led to that point). The order of events that the presenter did was likely meant to show off this particular interaction, but it doesn't have to play out that way -- the interactions with the party members are very much in the style of Baldur's Gate 2, and there is quite a bit more dialogue with party members (both friendship-related as well as romances) in DAO then there was in that game (I would know).

Whether or not the presentation showed it off in the best light, I can't really say, but it sounds like at the very least they showed you pushing one romance to the stage where a sexual encounter was possible, and that resulting in a conflict with the other party member -- all of it handled in dialogue, not unlike Baldur's Gate 2. If someone didn't like the tone, that's one thing, but characterizing it as being like the Sims is, I think, a little disingenuous.

[aries100]

Not for me, and maybe where the "adolescent" comment was coming from. Playing the game, the combat and feel of the game was of a console game. Then again, maybe I'm too old school. :)

That the game DA: Origins might not be for you is, of course, your decision. But what exactly does it mean that a game a has console feel or combat ? Is it because the combat is too easy? or is it because the interface is very smootj and user friendly so that new players can jump right in and play the game without first spending 2 hours or so reading the manual....

If we look at another Bioware game, say BG2, (or BG1), the interface is indeed very user friendly. However, both games are easy to learn, but hard to master.
Diablo 1 and 2 are the same --- very accessible at first, but when you go through the deeper levels, you begin to realize how hard the Diablo games really are to master.

As for the dialogues in DA: Origins, I remember reading somewhere on the web a little story about a player who played BG1 with Jaheira, Khalid, Montaron and Xzar + Imoen and the Player Character. This resulted in Montaran and Xzar having it out with Khalid and Jaheira in the middle of the Nashkell mines=fighting began.
All this while the party were attacked by kobolds with fire arrows...

And I myself have had Montaron and Xzar leave my party because I didn't go to Nashkell quickly enough. And Jaheira and Khalid did the same once.

And I think either Viconia or Jaheira, or possibly Aerie, will leave you in BG2 at one time completely....i.e. permanent, if you do say something they don't like...

To me, the dialogues in DA: Origins just seem to expand on the method used in the Baldur's Gate game series...

More generally, this is an RPG game, so we know that the outcome of the conversations migt be a different one; the one watching the presentation might not.

[wolfing]

I think it's just wrong marketing for our tastes here. Let's face it, standard RPG features are not very marketable, i.e. showing a screen with lots of stats and showing tactical combat is not as 'oooh' 'aaaah' inducing as lots of explosions and sex, at least for the type of gamers and press that follow E3. In our case, we'll probably need to check a demo to see if it really is a good game. Like it or not, Dragon Age is now a AAA game so those of us wanting a 'BG2 experience' are not the target players anymore. It may still be, as the game was 90% developed before it grabbed the attention of the higher ups at EA, but marketing won't be targeting us.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I have the instant, inrtuitive feeling as if that there is something very right in what you say, wolfing. Let's just take a look at the trailers so far : Clearly marketed for a broader, wider audience ... No, I have the instant feeling as if this RPG was made to cater a broader audience than RPGs normally do. If that is true, then there might be only few "geek factors" in it.

[DArtagnan]

The typical recipe for success isn't necessarily a juvenile over-the-top marketing campaign coupled with an actually very complex, deep, and rich game.

You'd end up infuriating the casual player base who latch on to that kind of marketing, and reviews would soon make the truth known - which could very well translate to bad word of mouth in the wrong circles.

If you market something as an edgy, teenage, sexy rockstar kind of game, you better not give them a modern BG2.

[aries100]

The typical recipe for success isn't necessarily a juvenile over-the-top marketing campaign coupled with an actually very complex, deep, and rich game.

You'd end up infuriating the casual player base who latch on to that kind of marketing, and reviews would soon make the truth known - which could very well translate to bad word of mouth in the wrong circles.

If you market something as an edgy, teenage, sexy rockstar kind of game, you better not give them a modern BG2.

Exactly what I and others have been saying at the Bioware forums for some time now - albeit in some other words....

And just to add:

Someone one said (don't remember who?) that if you have a bad product you better hide it using sex, drugs and rockn'roll in the marketing for the game.

Whether or not this is true for DA: Origins remains to be true....

[Smorri]

Just to interject a comment based on the above:

I'm not privy to the content of that presentation, but it sounds like what was being shown was the end portion of a very long romance plot between the player character and two party members (and therefore lacking the context of the previous plots that led to that point). The order of events that the presenter did was likely meant to show off this particular interaction, but it doesn't have to play out that way -- the interactions with the party members are very much in the style of Baldur's Gate 2, and there is quite a bit more dialogue with party members (both friendship-related as well as romances) in DAO then there was in that game (I would know).

Whether or not the presentation showed it off in the best light, I can't really say, but it sounds like at the very least they showed you pushing one romance to the stage where a sexual encounter was possible, and that resulting in a conflict with the other party member -- all of it handled in dialogue, not unlike Baldur's Gate 2. If someone didn't like the tone, that's one thing, but characterizing it as being like the Sims is, I think, a little disingenuous.

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough when I said "IMHO", but this was my opinion of the demo/presentation. To use your own words "the very least they showed you pushing one romance to the stage where a sexual encounter was possible, and that resulting in a conflict with the other party member" sounds like a dating simulation or Dangerous Housewives more then BG. I'm not denying there was romance and conflict in BG, but I never saw it promoted to this degree ( it was the overwhelming focus of the DA demo presentation). Again, in my opinion, this wasn't a feature I was looking for in a RPG. If you look around you'll notice that other people also came away from the demo with similar impressions. Are Bioware (or EA) employees (I assume you are one because your post implies it) going to jump on every post that gives negative feedback? And for a Bioware employee to call someone's opinion as "disingenuous" because it's negative, is unprofessional ("I would know", I'm in the business too).

"Whether or not the presentation showed it off in the best light, I can't really say"

Well that's the problem isn't it? The opinion on the dating issue was based on the presentation. Don't blame me if that's what I took away from it. Maybe it wasn't the best thought out presentation. I went in looking to find out about a high profile RPG. What I got was (I'm paraphrasing) "Look! You can get laid! Giggle Giggle Giggle". Again, I'm not the only one that has mention this point in the presentation. In the context of the presentation, I stand by my opinion that the interaction between party characters has moved more into the area of games like the sims. I hope this doesn't apply to the game as a whole.

[Smorri]

But what exactly does it mean that a game a has console feel or combat ? Is it because the combat is too easy? or is it because the interface is very smootj and user friendly so that new players can jump right in and play the game without first spending 2 hours or so reading the manual....


Sorry, this may not answer your question, but to me, the camera movement/view might be easier using a gamepad than a mouse. Maybe after more time playing the game I would get use to it.

[Dhruin]

Smorri, for clarification, David Gaider is the lead writer on Dragon Age.

[Smorri]

Smorri, for clarification, David Gaider is the lead writer on Dragon Age.

Well then he knows better than anyone if the impression that people have been expressing is typical of the game as a whole. I understand the desire to defend what one has been working long and hard on, but it's easy to become heavy handed. In every software company I've worked for, responding to negative reviews with more negativity was frowned upon and a great way to get into trouble.

Maybe the presentation fumbled the point it was trying to make. But my opinion was sincere and based upon what was shown to me.

[Dgaider]

Well then he knows better than anyone if the impression that people have been expressing is typical of the game as a whole. I understand the desire to defend what one has been working long and hard on, but it's easy to become heavy handed. In every software company I've worked for, responding to negative reviews with more negativity was frowned upon and a great way to get into trouble.

Maybe the presentation fumbled the point it was trying to make. But my opinion was sincere and based upon what was shown to me.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was jumping down your throat -- whatever you thought it's as much our fault for showing it to you in that manner, surely -- just that saying the relationship aspect played like the Sims belied the fact that there was, in fact, an entire story to it as well as dialogue and different routes for the relationship to take. This is not unlike BG2 and not like the Sims at all. Morrigan doesn't sleep with you solely because you gave her a book, for instance -- the PC in question would have needed to spend a great deal of time romancing her before that final quest put her approval over the top (which it need not, in fact, as it depends completely on where your approval with her is at the time).

Was that explained to you? I'm not sure, and obviously it wasn't in a manner to your liking no matter how we did explain it. I just don't think it's fair to say it's like the Sims, that's all.

Otherwise your opinion is a fair one, and clearly we'll have to do better if want to impress in the future and show that this is, in fact, a game that's worth the RPG fan's time. No argument there.

[Quests.Muin]

That the game DA: Origins might not be for you is, of course, your decision. But what exactly does it mean that a game a has console feel or combat ? Is it because the combat is too easy? or is it because the interface is very smootj and user friendly so that new players can jump right in and play the game without first spending 2 hours or so reading the manual....

Ooh i'll cover that, ooh.

The romance feels console because of the gameplay gaps that are filled by conjoining and watering down the adjacent parts.

explanation:
You have the starting point which is being in a camp and having a female companion in your coterie whom you can chat with. And you have the finish point which is the sinful fornicating. The gap is in between and there could be something there but it's been stripped off. What is it? Oh there's many ways to fill that gap. Some may say it's numbers and other stats. First of all check if the two races can go along together and add a -2 to success chance... same with the class. Then the dialogues should have tons of stat checks like charisma and what not... last but not least the items you can give her have to be indirectly guessable with the female character's personal plot and life goal... if it's too obvious it's for consoles... console people hate having to think too much, they like immediate fun and sex. PCness, MATURITY is all about taking the beginning and the end, splitting the 2 things apart and making them INDIRECT and difficult to conjoin... the old pc culture is naturally that of the first games ever to appear in a computer, text and graphic adventures. It's the culture of PUZZLES. There's a door and there's a key. A console game for kids tells you exactly where the key is and how to get it. A pc game will refuse that, it'll split the two things and put an INDIRECT HINT on where to get it, the indirectness of the hint being an obstacle between the problem and the solution.

These obstacles can't be added if the game has to sell to millions of flat-headed average folks... who just happen to be mostly console-kids.

Is it clear, Bioware folks??? This is exactly what you(as in, ALL you videogame makers) FORGOT about videogames, along the way, as years passed. :biggrin:

[Corwin]

An interesting first post. Welcome to our forums!!

[Damian Mahadevan]

An interesting first post. Welcome to our forums!!

Agreed! Welcome!

[Prime Junta]

Thirded. That was smart. S-M-R-T smart.

[Quests.Muin]

Thanks guys, it's a lovely site, and the posts of yours i read so far are great, very insightful.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

the old pc culture is naturally that of the first games ever to appear in a computer, text and graphic adventures. It's the culture of PUZZLES. There's a door and there's a key. A console game for kids tells you exactly where the key is and how to get it. A pc game will refuse that, it'll split the two things and put an INDIRECT HINT on where to get it, the indirectness of the hint being an obstacle between the problem and the solution.

This hits quite the nail whyI'm constantly thinking/combining of role playing games and adventurte games having a similar background ... To me, RPGs were in general rather about puzzles than about fighting. With my "background" with adventures as my favourite and first genre in gaming (apart from Jump & Run), this is understandable, I think.

Which is I'm also so much against action-RPGs : They don't offer puzzles and no more thinking anymore. In action games, everything is reduced to a "non-thinking", graphics-heavy representation of a game. So, to cut it short, "action" games are in a tendency gravitating towards movies.

If I follow this thought concept, then I think I must say that PS:T is the most "mature" game ever made : Not because of the "dark & gritty" cliché, but because of then inevitable thinking.

Personally, I don't think that "mature games" are about what the marketing people want us make to believe. I even dare to believe that marketing people try to create their own definition of what they thing makes up a "mature game" - and then they do everything to make us believe their kind of definition ... Perhaps this is what happened with the current DA marketing campaign.

(And) Now, this cliché of what makes up a"mature game" could be explicitely directed towards a younger audience which whishes to be oh-so-cool and "mature" ... It's to me as if a teenager sprays the word "sex" on a house wall to appear as a cool guy before others (not to mention with the intention to shock others). It's as if this guy believes that the word "sex" makes a shicking effect on all others ... But me, as a "real mature man", so to say, I can only yawn at this lame attempt - I do know what sex is about, and to me it has no "shocking" effect whatsoever ! Actually, to me, it is even rather the reverse effect : Real sex has a lot to do with love ...


To cut things short, I think we have here a contrast/hiatus between

- what people believe is "mature"
- what "maturity" really IS

That's all.

[Quests.Muin]

Oh regarding the thinking and maturity issue i don't think most of the people really claim that what they play is mature, while they're farming quests in some kind of world of clonehammer... online... craft. It's more likely that they believe videogaming shouldn't be taken too seriously, like literature or engaged cinema... but other times it's true... big triple A productions sometimes feature a hollywood story(like Kane&Lynch), so they claim it's the peak of videogaming, that it does everything cinema does, including the staring passively at the screen, may i add... it's also the case with crap like Oblivion and Fallout3, "immersive and realistic" yet it needs less thinking than pac-man.

But most of the time it's probably just low consideration of the medium... after they tell you on tv how videogames are childish and violent and immature, many will start to believe it, it's a rhetorical idea. I remember Chris Taylor interviewed about Space Siege. For some obscure reasons someone associated our beloved Deus Ex with SS... well the man was honest and blunt, in his answer... he said something around this: "no, this game has nothing to do with DE, times are different, the market is different, players don't wanna waste too much time and effort into a videogame anymore"

I couldn't believe mine own eyes.
Anyway for more reflections on thinking taken as a standalone element of a videogame i invite you to read my blog on gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ConQuests/653/) ;)

Let's get back to DAO, i got many things to ask the Bioware folks.