Wizardry 8 Party Creation Advice

[Cormac]

I just started playing and need advice from the experts for the party I'm trying to create. This is what I've come up with:

Rawulf Lord
Felpurr Samurai
Dwarf Priest
Faerie Mage
Elf Bishop
Hobbit Gadgeteer

- I'm not sure about the races, especially that of the gadgeteer, so is there a better one for that class (and the others) ?

- The bishop: I like the fact he can cast both mage and priest spells (as I understand it) and I almost got two of them but apparently they're tough on beginning players or some such. Should I keep him or ditch him for another spellcaster -- probably a mage ?

- Are bards essential ? I'm prejudiced against them to begin with, and the fact that -- I recall reading in some thread at rpgdot -- there's a powerful instrument that only female bards can use, means I couldnt name my bard Robert Plant, and that's just plain unacceptable. Of course if a bard is a great addition to a party I'll take one; I could always name her Roberta Plant.

- This brings me to the gadgeteer. I had initially wanted a ninja because I really wanted a third melee character but it appears ninjas are not good melee fighters: they actually begin the game with shuriken. A ninja would have been perfect because he would have taken care of lockpicking and trap removal too. So I went with the gadgeteer instead. Good or bad choice ?

I had other questions but I forgot them and now I should get some sleep so thanks in advance.

[Corwin]

Faerie Ninjas are worth considering for one very powerful weapon which only they can use!!

[HiddenX]

A Valkyrie is better than a Lord -> Death Cheating

Bishops a hard to develop, but there are great in in mid- to endgame

A Bard is nice, but I would take him only as a replacement for the gadgeteer

Gadgeteer: (see Bard) - it's fun to play a gadgeteer, because it is challenging to find and make all the tools.

Samurais are the best sword fighters, but they can't use every armour.

Ninja's are good alchemists, too.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

A Vakyrie is very good, but you can have an RPC of that class later in the game.

No matter what you do, I recommend a strong healer.

Bards and Gadgeteers have imho very good "tools" later in the game, but you will be able to recruit an Gadgeteer later, too.

[magerette]

What Hidden X said on the Lord.
I haven't played as much as lots of folks here, but I have restarted my party about twelve times;) --I tried a Rawulf Lord, then Priest dual-classed to a Lord-and perhaps with a lot of patience he might have developed, but compared to a Valkyrie there just wasn't the damage, and the dual wield was pretty feeble as a skill.

On the other hand , you will be able to pick up an RPC who is a very good Valkyrie, so you could plan on another class for one slot. I would keep it a frontline fighter type, though.

I have a bard, and she does as much damage with her instruments as a spellcaster with spells. Because playing the instrument relies on using stamina, she is immediately back up after a battle, rather than having to rest to regain mana. When she loses stamina in combat, I have my Bishop cast the stamina spell, which gives the Bishop a chance to increase the water realm skill. She (bard) is working out pretty good with Locks & Traps as well.

Downside, I hear that later in the game she might not have access to as powerful items, but don't know yet.

The Bishop is awesome, but takes time to develop. As dteowner said in another thread, saving your spell picks at an early level is good. Just let them mount up til you are about level 7 when you can start picking some more powerful spells.
You can buy, steal or find a lot of low-level spellbooks.

There's a good Bishop guide(no spoilers) at this link:

http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/

posted at the same time as Alrik, so someone more knowledgable confirms the Valk advice!

[dteowner]

Just say "no!" to RPCs!!! (sorry, personal preference coming thru)

More to come later, gotta at least look like I'm working.

[dteowner]

Cormac, your party will work, although you're a little heavy on casters IMO. Races aren't that critical, but your choices look fine to me. The only drawback to a hobbit gadgy is less stamina than an equivalent human. Not a major deal, though. With your party, I'd drop the bishop and replace with some sort of melee type.

I don't remember if I've posted this here before, but here's my "magic formula" for a first time player's party (not in order)
1 ranger (autosearch is too valuable not to have, can serve as potion mixer)
1 lock-n-trap (rogue, bard, or gadgy)
1 healer (priest or bishop)
1 offense caster (mage, psi, bishop, alch)
2 tanks (fighter, valk, sammy, lord, monk, ninja)
I would avoid bishops, lords, ninjas, and alchemists for first-timers. They're fun, but it helps to have some experience as you try to develop them. I also don't like rogues. Pickpocket is badly nerfed in v1.2.4, so you end up with an average melee type with no spell ability.

There is no female-only instrument in the game. There is a female-only magic item that is useful to bards, but it's not a "must-have". Robert Plant is eligible.

The valk's cheat death isn't really that useful after the early levels, IMO. The biggest selling point is that there are some good polearms in the game and a properly developed valk (very simple development path, BTW) can do a ton of damage.

Bard vs gadgy: both are fun to play. The bard is a touch easier to develop (assuming they are your L&T guy). A gadgy is weak in the early game, since you won't have the pieces for many gadgets and the omnigun isn't great. The bard is best in the early and mid-game, but is a little weak at the end. The gadgy can be a real butt-kicker in the endgame, both with powerful gadgets and a seriously upgraded omnigun.

The best melee type based on raw damage is a lord. It's a pain to develop a lord properly and it takes a while to get the 2 weapons that make it work, but when all is said and done they can be a total meat blender.

I guess that's enough lecturing for now.

[roqua]

Bards don't get locks and traps. Unless they get it later. I just had one in my last party. I had to force open in the monestery or wait till i brought myles back since I had to get the wird key anyway. Unless its a mix up with the two mods messing up the characters. But manual doesn't say its a class skill for bards either.

[dteowner]

Bard most certainly do get L&T from the beginning. My current party has a bard doing to lockpick duties, in fact. If you ain't be gottin' it, must bes doze mods yer usin'.

[NFLed]

"Cormac, your party will work, although you're a little heavy on casters IMO."

I agree with this. A heavy caster party can work but it's vulnerable unless you know what you are doing in terms of protecting and utilizing the casters. Personally I like to have 3 "fighter-types" for the front line, at least two pure casters, and one either caster or miscellaneous.

[Cormac]

Thanks to all for replying !

Allright, so I'm dumping the bishop, God forgive me, but I'm keeping the Lord. I'm also dropping the gadgeteer in favour of a faerie ninja. . . or maybe a bard, I dont know yet. And taking the bishop's place will be another melee type, either a valk or a fighter. Maybe it's best if I take a fighter if developing a Lord is hard enough work.
If this group doesnt work, I can always come back, edit this post and blame my failure on all of you :biggrin:

Thanks again.

[Corwin]

Somewhere back in the Dot archives I remember reading a post which gave several party builds that worked well for different types of play. Dte might remember it better than I do, but it might be worth taking the time to find it. SEARCH is your friend!! :)

[Cormac]

Thanks Corwin, but I probably wont need it -- and furthermore when I lately tried to access the rpgdot archives I have always drawn a blank page.
I looked at a couple of sites linked in this and the other Wizardry threads and for better or worse I'm all set to go. I've actually changed my mind again when it comes to the bishop, so he's in and the priest is out; and finally I chose the ranger over the ninja. The rats in the monastery dont stand a chance.

[Cormac]

I suppose most of you already knew that Scorpia wrote a strategy (http://www.just-rpg.com/default.asp?pid=49)guide for Wiz8 some time ago for JustRPG ? I've always enjoyed reading her stuff.
There's also one for Pool of Radiance 2 (http://www.just-rpg.com/default.asp?pid=87).

[Corwin]

The strategy guide for PoR2 should be quite short!! Get a good soft pillow!! :biggrin:

[dteowner]

The good news, Cormac, is that any party build can work. Some are just easier to do than others. If you get one that doesn't seem to be working, start again. You want to be reasonably happy with what you've got before you leave the monestary. That's how I've ended up with so many "monestary only" parties--that's where I generally pull the plug on experiments.

With your lord, you want to give him at least one weapon that falls in the mace/flail group to get that skill built up. After you get to the Rapax Castle (that's gonna be a while), you'll be dual-wielding two maces and bringing the whoopa$$.

[Cormac]

You know, this morning I realised that no one in my party has the lockpicking and trap removal skills. . . so I'm thinking the ranger should go in favour of someone who does have those skills, like the bard or the ninja. What do you think ? Can I survive without a rogue-like guy ? I really like the make up of my party but if a lockpicker/trapremover is essential, I'll change it again.
About the lord: yes, I read in Jandrall's page about a mace or flail that's a great off hand weapon and I'll keep my eyes peeled for it.

What a game though -- I've been playing with the demo a long time, and I just now found a used copy at EBGames (premade party only for the demo, no character creation). What's also great is that I found a copy of Wiz7 that I can run in DoxBox in one of the abandonware sites from HiddenX's thread.

[Corwin]

Yep, I played Wiz 7 again last year and enjoyed it more than the first time I played it!!

[magerette]

You know, this morning I realised that no one in my party has the lockpicking and trap removal skills. . . so I'm thinking the ranger should go in favour of someone who does have those skills, like the bard or the ninja. What do you think ? Can I survive without a rogue-like guy ? I really like the make up of my party but if a lockpicker/trapremover is essential, I'll change it again..

Again, I'm just a beginner on this game, but I think it would be pretty hard to go the distance without a L&T char. Unless you have the strength of will to walk away from that trapped chest that just might contain the plus 10 vorpal sword of smiting or whatever. ;)

If you go the RPC route, you will have access to a rogue, but I didn't care much for him myself.

There's also the possiblity of dual-classing one of your characters at some point. Then you could keep your party closer to your original build perhaps. There are some spells your casters can use as well(Knock Knock and Divine Traps)that might help out.
Best of luck : )

[Cormac]

Again, I'm just a beginner on this game, but I think it would be pretty hard to go the distance without a L&T char. Unless you have the strength of will to walk away from that trapped chest that just might contain the plus 10 vorpal sword of smiting or whatever. ;)

If you go the RPC route, you will have access to a rogue, but I didn't care much for him myself.

There's also the possiblity of dual-classing one of your characters at some point. Then you could keep your party closer to your original build perhaps. There are some spells your casters can use as well(Knock Knock and Divine Traps)that might help out.
Best of luck : )

No, I cant resist a locked chest; I finally picked a ninja, despite the other options like spells.
Thanks !

[magerette]

Way to go Cormac.
That's a flavor I really wanted to try, but couldn't fit in. Maybe next time--but I promise, it won't be a solo Ironman fairy ninja--not in this lifetime, anyway :-/

[dteowner]

Hey Cormac, forgive me for being dense, but what did your party actually end up being? And while we're at it, what's yer makeup, magerette?

[magerette]

I've got a plain vanilla human fighter, human valk, Mook ranger, Hobbit bard, Elvin bishop and Fairy mage.
At the moment I have one RPC(Vi), but that will probably change--I enjoy the RPC contributions to the storyline, but really six characters are more than enough to manage.

[dteowner]

Pretty similar to my current crew- human valk, lizzy fighter, human monk, mook ranger, human bard, faerie bishop. I designed the party melee heavy.

During one run, I wanted to hear Vi's commentary, particularly at the very end of the game, but I still hated to pick up any RPCs since they take a share of the XP. I ended up taking her to the final map as a level 7 or so. Needless to say, she died instantly and often (most people seem to finish the game in the low 30's), but I brought her back before all was said and done. I was actually a little disappointed, but it was interesting to see what she had to say.

[magerette]

The voice acting is really great in breathing life into all the characters. In more recent games, there don't seem too many npcs with a personality that isn't whiny, irritating or just yawnable. My whole party is fun to listen to, even tho they repeat themselves a lot. ("Vinning this battle vill be as easy as finding flies on a cow!")

As far as the xp leeching, I agree that is a factor, too. It really isn't necessary to have the extra firepower most of the time, and those level ups are getting few and far between now that I've survived past level ten.

[dteowner]

I've used all the voices at one time or another, although I certainly prefer some of them. I admit I would have liked a few more. A stereotypical (and probably offensive) black male and female would have been nice. I'd enjoy starting a battle to something like, "Oh no you didna!" (maybe animate the portrait for an equally offensive head bob) A John Cleese would have been nice, too. Maybe a Canadian or two-- "It's all aboot da ice, ya hey." Maybe a New York Jew. How about a true intellectual, in the dry overbearing professor vein? No guy from India- a criminal omission! The possibilities are endless, even if most of them would have gotten them sued. Perhaps a hick Hoosier (in the interest of fairness).

[Cormac]

Here's my jolly bunch:

Human Lord
Lizard Fighter
Fellpurr Samurai
Elf Bishop
Faerie Mage
Fellpurr Ninja (I really hesitated for this one's race).

Oh, it's a jolly bunch, hey.

While I'm at it, what's the deal with all the cursed items ? WTF ? But I'm guessing that my bishop's ability to remove cursed items works, because I've equipped a bunch of the stuff and unequiped it without problems . . . or is it something I'm not getting ?

[magerette]

@ dteowner
Yeah, it would be nice to see that kind of variety--I for one am all for sacrificing any needless political correctness in the interests of humor anytime. I think that clueless Hoosier has been done, tho-in Baldurs gate--that guy that follows you around til you long desparately to kill him?:p

@ cormac
Of course you had to make the ninja a Fellpur--obviously you can't trust the fighters with the ale supply, and a fairy couldn't have hauled around enough cold ones w/out becoming encumbered. ;)

AFA the cursed items, other than as a role-playing element I could't possible explain why they are there--I guess the idea is a sword that gives you 3 massive skull-pulverizing hits per turn should come with some balancing. (Damn them.)

[Corwin]

Dte, don't you think there should be at least one Aussie in your mix!! :)

[dteowner]

Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. How could I forget Crocodile Dundee?

re cursed: a party without a bishop or access to the remove curse spell could be seriously inconvenienced by a cursed item. As magerette points out, it can be a balancing issue as well. Sure, Bloodlust is a cool sword, but doesn't it suck having a character that can't switch to a bow? If it's a fighter, he just has to sit a pick his nose until some critter wanders into range. It's all about choices, which is the beauty of Wiz8.

[Corwin]

Yeah Dte, can't you just see one of your chars going- "You call that a sword? THIS is a sword"!! :)

[roqua]

If you give bloodlust to a sam or lord, you can cast spells. I don't usually do the back into a crook thing. I charge. It just doesn't feel right making the enemy close with you.

But I play diferent than most i think. I don't use sleep or paralyze or terror, etc. I cast damage spells. And healing spells. And I rush and attack. Guardian angel my fairy mage, and lay waste to the enemy.

[dteowner]

With careful strategy, a kamikaze approach can work. Eventually, you're going to get mobbed by some challenging critters, but that's a tradeoff you can make. Yet another example of flexibility that makes this such a great game.

@Corwin- I was originally going to vote for a Steve Irwin voice, but thought that might seem a little inappropriate. Find a new item, and he says, "Crikey, she's a beauty!"

[Cormac]

Shakespeare:
Cry havok, and let slip the dogs of war !

Roqua:
Guardian angel my fairy mage, and lay waste to the enemy.

:)

[GothicGothicness]

The other people here sure gave a lot of advice.... I've spent a lot of time of this game each year. The people here have already given you good advice! I disagree with one thing though, I do think the race matters.

I'd like to put some extra props for the Valkyrie, and the Bard. I love the Bard because I don't like resting, and having one means I can always assure all party members are in full health, has the strongest blessing, all the time, that they're fully rested, strongest haste, etc etc etc without wasting a single MP, besides they can take care of traps and locks.. and use a shield, to not die so easily :D As for the Valkyrie everytime I play through the game, my Valkyrie ends up with 0 deaths, and the highest killing count in the party, in usual she often beats my mage ( even if she has a lot of area effect killer spells ) by about 100 kills. This is because she can be amazingly powerful with one of the good polearms!

Finally some props for the Lord, I use to have him dual wielding with a curse weapon with bersherk on it.... it gives him an insane amount of attack rounds. My favourite party I made though I kind of regret the samurai is like this, I always play on the hardest setting ( no ironman LOL ):

Mylord - Dwarf Lord 490 kills / 1 deaths
Feli - Human Bard 470 kills / 3 deaths
Xoria - Fearie Alchemist 450 kills / 4 deaths
HariKiri - Felpur Samurai 296 kills / 2 deaths
Valkyrie - Human Valkyrie 580 kills / 0 deaths
Rav - Rawulf Priest 68 kills ( LOL ) / 0 deaths

Formation
Front Mylord, HariKiri
Left Side Valkyrie ( long range polearm )
Right Side Rav ( or middle if NPC on right side, long range staff )
Middle - Feli,Xoria ( slings )

[Cormac]

I thought about taking a valkyrie, but since my priority was having a lord and a samurai, I found it preferable to have a fighter in my last melee spot and not having to worry about a trickier character progression for that one.

[magerette]

@gothicgothicness
Yes, this is a very supportive board and I for one am grateful to everybody who's helped.
I definitely am with you on the bard and valk.
I've played a bard in several rpgs, but this is the first one where she wasn't just a passive in the background entity. She has as many or more kills than the Ranger, but that may be because I have yet to get the positioning just right-;)-half the time he doesn't seem to be able to use his bow.
@Cormac
Keep us posted on how the Lord works out for you. I think you were probably wise not to try all the elite characters in your first party. Though my bishop is giving me no trouble at all.
It really illustrates what dteowner said, the variety and possibilities of the game--and obviously the replayability that all these different choices give you. There's always next time.