Gothic 3 - Review @ Gamespot

[Kalia]

Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/gothic3/review.html?page=1&sid=6162673&part=rss&tag=gs_pc&subj=6162673) , in a departure from most NA reviews, has posted a fairly 'middle of the road' review of Gothic 3. Handing G3 a 7.6 ('good') rating, reviewer Andrew Park states:

Gothic 3 is also a great-looking game that has detailed character models and interior environments and beautiful outdoor vistas, especially if you have a higher-end computer system and can get away with turning the game's graphics settings up. The game's good-looking graphics go a long way toward making the game seem like an epic adventure in a huge, sprawling world, even if the flat dialogue and issues with characters getting stuck on things sometimes detracts from it.

All things considered, it's unfortunate that the game shipped with its technical problems, and that it shipped in the same year as The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, since it's almost impossible to avoid comparing the two. Gothic 3 doesn't have Oblivion's huge breadth and might not look quite as impressive just because of that difference in scale, but it does offer a fairly well put-together story in its set of linked quests, as well as plenty of freedom to roam. To enjoy the game, you'll need a high-end computer, time and patience, and tolerance for a brisk challenge--but if you have all these things, Gothic 3 could be what you're looking for.


More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=2994)

[Thaurin]

Ahh, good old level-headed Gamespot. I knew I could trust you. They gave similar scores to the other Gothics, if I recall correctly. It's a pretty reasonable score, with room for tilt values for those who are a big fan of Gothic's strong points (atmosphere, gameplay, story).

[Corwin]

Finally, an intelligent score!! Not that I'm in any way biased!!!! :)

[Danicek]

Not that I'm in any way biased!!!! :)

Nor am I :D. Pretty good review.

[Lethal Weapon]

Could anyone explain to me that part about Oblivion's huge breadth? Because I own the game since day 1 and I haven't noticed.

[Corwin]

It looks nice on a wide screen!! :)

[Lethal Weapon]

Oh I see. Lol. Thanks for letting me know!

[Danicek]

Corwin simply knows how to be clear and sound :)

[doctor_kaz]

The review was way too easy on the game's enormous performance problems and crappy combat with animals like wolves and boars. I still agree with the overall score though.

[txa1265]

It looks nice on a wide screen!! :)

I don't think that is what he is talking about ... and therefore I disagree with him there. I would agree if the word were 'scope' instead of 'breadth', but I think a great thing about the Gothic games is that they are at once 'world scope' and very intimate. Having the cook on Venguard bring that into context was quite hilarious ...

[txa1265]

The review was way too easy on the game's enormous performance problems

It made it clear - you need a very powerful system, and even then it tasks any available computer to the limit. That is *exactly* what I saw as well.

[elkston]

I think the score is correct, but the review is superficial. I doubt he really played the game for any substantial length of time because if he did, he would have commeneted on even more things.

The biggest problems with many Gothic 3 reviews I see is that they penalize the game for trivial things, but never really get around to explaining its true shortcomings. Vault_Dweller's review at RPGCODEX is the absolute, most detailed and accurate review of G3, but he goes too easy on it IMHO.

Anyone that goes the distance with Gothic 3 will begin to see where it falls short:

1. Lack of quest variety
2. No puzzles or dungeons
3. Experience given too generously (there is almost no need to specialize because you can attain an ungodly character level and master many skills)
4. Rewards from chests not varied enough
5. Melee combat with humans needs major work.
6. A general sense of "breadth versus depth" when it comes to storytelling, details, and character interaction.

If the combat versus humans was as varied and interesting as it was in Gothic 1/2, then the fact that most of the quests are "kill this" would matter less because at least it would be FUN. As I said in previous postings, ranged combat IS better though.

When the next patch comes out I am gong to start over with a brand new game. Hopefully then I can have a better experience.

[RatavuK]

I didn't read the review but the score is infatuating me :)

[Danicek]

Some good points elkstone.

[Acleacius]

Wow, 2 reasionable scorces (considering the circumstances) based off the US release in 1 day?
Omg!<faints>

[RatavuK]

Some good points elkstone.

Some good points Dani ! :D

[kalniel]

Could anyone explain to me that part about Oblivion's huge breadth? Because I own the game since day 1 and I haven't noticed.
Simple. You can play any character you want, how you want.

You don't have to follow the story at all. You don't have to play any one type of character - if you want to play a heavy armoured, mace weilding spell caster you can do. You can go where you want, when you want.

It's a virtual world for you to spend time in as you want. But don't expect it to give it all on a plate to you, you have to use your imagination and put some work into it.

[Dhruin]

Simple. You can play any character you want, how you want.

You don't have to follow the story at all. You don't have to play any one type of character - if you want to play a heavy armoured, mace weilding spell caster you can do. You can go where you want, when you want.

It's a virtual world for you to spend time in as you want. But don't expect it to give it all on a plate to you, you have to use your imagination and put some work into it.

Oh, come on. You can play any character you want as long as it's essentially a fighter/mage/assassin combination. You can't play a diplomatic character in any way, unless you count the silly mini-game that has little use and even less consequence.

I particularly hate the "virtual world" tag, because that says to me the world is complete and reactive, which Oblivion most certainly isn't. It's a huge combat sandbox...a massive map dotted with monsters and dungeons to fight your way across any way you like -- as long as you like fighting essentially the same stuff in similar dungeons.

That doesn't make it "bad" (or even that other RPGs do certain things better) but it isn't half the virtual world that, say, Gothic is. There's no cohesion, no reaction.

[Corwin]

And the so called world of 'Oblivion' (through the gates) was terrible. Do you know of anyone who enjoyed that dull, boring and totally repetative part of the game?!! No wonder they kept it a secret till after the game was released!!

[abbaon]

I enjoyed speedrunning it.

[Acleacius]

"No wonder they kept it a secret till after the game was released!!"
:lol:

[doctor_kaz]

And the so called world of 'Oblivion' (through the gates) was terrible. Do you know of anyone who enjoyed that dull, boring and totally repetative part of the game?!! No wonder they kept it a secret till after the game was released!!

I enjoyed the first one. After that, they really sucked.

[txa1265]

I enjoyed the first one. After that, they really sucked.

That is an amazing thing ... the first one was pretty interesting, at least in its contrast to the rest of the game ... but even by the *second* one they were just tedious ...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

You mean Arena by "the first one" ?

[txa1265]

You mean Arena by "the first one" ?

No - I was talking about the Oblivion gate areas.

[kalniel]

I couldn't stand the oblivion realm areas. But at least you don't have to bother with them if you don't want to.

I don't know what you mean about having to play a fi/ma/assassin combo? I've never played anything like that - I've gone through several times with completely different character concepts and it's been great, and a different experience each time.

And I've even played a diplomatic character. As I've said before, you need some imagination and constraint, but if you put the effort it the game certainly rewards you.

I get plenty of reaction in my games though - maybe my RAI is working better than yours? It feels like a pretty alive place and I do enjoy just roleplaying in it.

[Corwin]

Arena was a good game. I really liked it!!

[Maylander]

I have to agree, I was really excited when entering the first portal to Oblivion. I saved every few steps I took and expected horrors around every corner. By the time I entered my 3rd or 4th gate it was getting tedious though, just like every other type of dungeon. A shame really, as demonic planes hold great potential if you could help the demons for instance, or if they had any bigger cities and such there. Make them a faction and let it be possible to join them through the secret cult where you actually join for a short period of time.

As it is right now though, the whole plane of oblivion ended up being one of the biggest dissappointments in the game, as it was hyped up to be something amazing, and kept hidden untill release.

[Dhruin]

I don't know what you mean about having to play a fi/ma/assassin combo? I've never played anything like that - I've gone through several times with completely different character concepts and it's been great, and a different experience each time.

Sure you do. You might pretend the character has more depth and you might spend some time playing with alchemy (or whatever) but every quest line is linear and most are combat oriented and you are really just dealing damage in various ways.

And I've even played a diplomatic character. As I've said before, you need some imagination and constraint, but if you put the effort it the game certainly rewards you.

I can do that with any game -- it's not really fair to credit the game mechanics when you are doing that work.

Give me an example or two of recognisable Oblivion quests (ie, ones everyone might remember) and exactly how your diplomatic character influenced the game or changed the course of the gameworld or completed the quest using diplomatic skills.

I get plenty of reaction in my games though - maybe my RAI is working better than yours? It feels like a pretty alive place and I do enjoy just roleplaying in it.

I think the RAI is braindead but I don't really mean that and I'm not looking to just rag on Oblivion. Do the game inhabitants react to the awful gates that keep popping up? Does anything happen if I ignore them? Can I really change the course of the world?

Again, I'm not suggesting every other RPG necessarily does a better but when critics say they can really roleplay in Oblivion (to go back to where we started), what they really mean is they graphics etc are so good, they feel like they are the one holding the bow. They're really "immersed". That's a good thing...but no different to any other good action game -- Half Life, perhaps.

[Corwin]

Good points Dhruin; I agree. There's not much variety in how to solve any of the quests!!

[doctor_kaz]

Oblivion was also a piss-poorly balanced game. Archery and stealth were woefully underpowered and that crappy level scaling didn't help at all. I had to shoot most monsters fifty times with a bow to kill them even if I snuck up on them with my 100&#37; stealth skill. The level-scaling was an awful and lazy solution to the problem of presenting a challenge to the player throughout the game. Oblivion is the first game that I have every played that motivates you to to not gain levels. If there is one area that the Gothic series dominates its competition, it's that the handcrafting of the world and the way that the game subtly manages the challenge level. Oblivion had what seemed like a lot of lazy solutions to design problems that were necessary because the developers focused too much on breadth instead of depth.

[kalniel]

Good points Dhruin; I agree. There's not much variety in how to solve any of the quests!!

I disagree - I thought there was more variety than in most other games, g3 and nwn2 included. I thought the 'murder the dinner guests' type quests were fantastic. There were plenty of investigation and evidence gathering ones which weren't just a case of fighting your way through somewhere and getting an item, you have to go and follow people unseen etc.

I agree that there wasn't much world-wide reaction to your actions except as they applied to the main quest, however the RAI did provide good local reaction to completion of local quests. I don't know about other critics, but when I say I enjoy roleplaying in Oblivion, I mean I really enjoy taking the role and living the life of an imaginary character, and I feel I have the most freedom to do that in Oblivion - certainly more than NWN2 and still more than G3 in several aspects.

So yeah, ignore the main plot stuff, I think that was a bit naff, but on the microscale it was much better. Solely IMO of course. But every Elderscolls game has been a bit like that, just as every Gothic game has had such reliance on combat, or every Bioware/IE/OE game has had such reliance on fed-ex. None of them are perfect, but all are very enjoyable and I don't feel the need to try and find fault with them.

[Corwin]

Those murder investigations were very linear and could only be solved one way!! That was the point we were making, not that there wasn't variety in the type of quests available!!

[Lethal Weapon]

Any game that does not allow for tough choices in-game is not really a role-playing game. Roaming about and hunting deer is not roleplaying a hunter; it is a simulation and there are better games for that (deerhunter).

[Moriendor]

Oblivion was also a piss-poorly balanced game. Archery and stealth were woefully underpowered

Mais, au contraire, mon ami :) . Not sure with what mods you played but in my unmodded (at least as far as game balance went) version of Oblivion, stealth + bow was what helped me out of the "scaling trap" (I played a mostly non-combat character and climbed levels too fast for my comparatively poor combat skills in the beginning). I would have been screwed without the 4x (I think it was) damage bonus that you got from a successful covert shot. Bow + stealth were awesome tools to bring down an enemy's health considerably via a first strike attack. If you managed to remain undetected due to a high sneak skill, most enemies didn't survive the second shot. I'd almost say that bow + stealth were overpowered. Also because enemies in dungeons had a really hard time finding you in the dark. With a high sneak skill you could keep shooting at them from just a few meters and they still wouldn't detect you.

I had to shoot most monsters fifty times with a bow to kill them even if I snuck up on them with my 100% stealth skill.

You can not honestly be talking about Oblivion or at least not your own gaming experience. Did you read that some place else and copy & paste? :)

The level-scaling was an awful and lazy solution to the problem of presenting a challenge to the player throughout the game.

Partially true. Yes. I didn't like it either. However, it was only for the first half of the game or so (until about level 20) and not throughout the whole game (assuming "whole game" = finishing every major quest line) that you really noticed. There wasn't much difference in the scaling of loot or mobs beyond level 20. It felt rather stable from there on.

[Dhruin]

Hmm...I found the bow underpowered in open combat. Yes, the sneak attack in a dungeon worked OK but in the open, I'd have 20 arrows sticking out of something like a pin-cushion. I used a mod to bump the damage up.

@kalniel, you side-stepped actually answering. ;) Oblivion did have some nice little inventive quest stories - I was very pleased with the effort on quest variety - but absolutely no choices...hence, no real roleplaying.

Again, how did being a diplomatic character (or evil or good or Argonian or anything else) affect the murder investigation?

Just out of interest, here's (roughly) how the murder quest went for me. I followed one guy around a corner of the bottom level just out of sight of a second and killed him. The other guy came around the corner a second later and completely ignored the dead body. I went upstairs and two people were asleep...I killed the first and instantly the second leaped out of bed like they'd been given an electric shock -- then immediately went back to sleep. I went over and stabbed them and another walked through the door as I was doing it....but didn't react to me murdering someone asleep, so I was walked over and stabbed them to death.

That's my RAI experience (but that isn't the thrust of my overall complaint).

[Moriendor]

Hmm...I found the bow underpowered in open combat. Yes, the sneak attack in a dungeon worked OK but in the open, I'd have 20 arrows sticking out of something like a pin-cushion. I used a mod to bump the damage up.

OK, I don't recall the exact formula that Oblivion used for damage calculations or which stats were factored into the ranged damage output but it wasn't that bad from what I can remember (IIRC, all mobs went down after ~5-8 hits at medium difficulty when fighting in the open).
I have to admit though that I lowered the difficulty after I finished the quest lines (including the main quest) just to be able to kill enemies faster. There just was no point to fighting anymore. I knew exactly that to kill mob x I needed *exactly* y amount of arrows. And I had mastered the "art" of kiting (running in squares/circles to avoid getting hit) to perfection by then so artifically inflating the length of combat just seemed like a big waste of time when I really just wanted to finish up a few of the remaining quests from my diary.

[roqua]

Dhruin, I don't think choice equals roleplaying. DX2 had three choices to get past the guard, or get into the building, etc. I think choice coupled with real consequence can foster roleplaying. A different way to killl x, or get y, or make it to z, still just equals killing x, or getting y, or making it to z.

[Dhruin]

@Mo, Your recollection is probably pretty accurate...but 8 (or whatever) shots while kiting around just annoyed me too much so I didn't feel happy with it until I bumped the damage up.

@Roqua, no, choice doesn't equal roleplaying, but choice is absolutely required to roleplay. There needs to be a means to achieve something that is reasonably appropriate for different characters. But that's really just a semantic argument in the end so I'm comfortable saying choice is at the heart of a good RPG experience.

[kalniel]

Again, how did being a diplomatic character (or evil or good or Argonian or anything else) affect the murder investigation? It didn't of course, but why would you accept that quest if you were being a diplomatic character?

You have to use your imagination in games like that. I obviously can't explain my point well enough, so I accept your opinion that you could not roleplay in Oblivion. I however have a different opinion and greatly enjoy roleplaying, still, in Oblivion. Everyone is different and needs different things from a game in order to be able to enjoy it.

I really don't like that fact that Gothic 3 gives you so little choice over the character. To me that is one of the things that makes it a lesser roleplaying experience, and in that respect Oblivion has far greater choice. However that's not the only thing I care about in a game, so I still enjoy Gothic 3 despite it having (IMO) less choice.

edit: to further prove how different our experiences of the game are, my first time through Oblivion was with a hunter/ranger type character, using the bow almost exclusively - I love ranged weapons in Oblivion and don't find them underpowered at all ;)

[Dhruin]

It didn't of course, but why would you accept that quest if you were being a diplomatic character?

Because I might hope the designers allowed for different outcomes, with different consequences for different characters? ;)

You have to use your imagination in games like that. I obviously can't explain my point well enough, so I accept your opinion that you could not roleplay in Oblivion. I however have a different opinion and greatly enjoy roleplaying, still, in Oblivion. Everyone is different and needs different things from a game in order to be able to enjoy it.

No, I understand your perspective. I just think you are giving Oblivion undue credit (see below). I somewhat enjoyed Oblivion for around 50 hours -- I don't want to give the impression that I hated it -- but I was always aware of missing elements and lost opportunities to be much better.

I really don't like that fact that Gothic 3 gives you so little choice over the character. To me that is one of the things that makes it a lesser roleplaying experience, and in that respect Oblivion has far greater choice. However that's not the only thing I care about in a game, so I still enjoy Gothic 3 despite it having (IMO) less choice.

Completely agree. Gothic would be all the better for having character creation.

edit: to further prove how different our experiences of the game are, my first time through Oblivion was with a hunter/ranger type character, using the bow almost exclusively - I love ranged weapons in Oblivion and don't find them underpowered at all ;)

This really highlights were we deviate in opinion. I accept this is roleplaying...but it's a pretty limited form -- that's my point. Not that Oblivion has no roleplaying. Could I not play Half Life (or whatever), choosing to use the pistol exclusively? Perhaps roleplaying a cautious guy who inches into each room, carefully scoping out the situation?

[txa1265]

I however have a different opinion and greatly enjoy roleplaying, still, in Oblivion.

I really don't like that fact that Gothic 3 gives you so little choice over the character. To me that is one of the things that makes it a lesser roleplaying experience, and in that respect Oblivion has far greater choice.
I understand what you're saying, but I could argue that there is a game that is as much of a RPG as that - I got to choose my gender, race, appearance, and then even select and upgrade my main weapon and 'spells' as I progressed! There are two different endings depending on choices made.

That game is Jedi Academy - and it ain't an RPG!

Of course I'm exaggerating for effect, but to me taking a moral stand in a game is more role-playing than playing 'dress-up'. So many of Oblivion's 'choices' are 'do it or not'. No real external repercussions. And I absolutely hate the persuasion 'mini-game'.

[kalniel]

Because I might hope the designers allowed for different outcomes, with different consequences for different characters? ;) Yeah that would be nice, but as always the more branching you have the less deep you can go. Oblivion provides choice *mostly* in selection of quests, rather than having fixed quests which you can complete a multitude of ways. Some quests have choice, some don't, but the real choice in Oblivion is not having to take the quest at all, and that applies to the Main Quest especially - which is a trademark of all Elder Scrolls games since Daggerfall.

This really highlights were we deviate in opinion. I accept this is roleplaying...but it's a pretty limited form -- that's my point. Not that Oblivion has no roleplaying. Could I not play Half Life (or whatever), choosing to use the pistol exclusively? Perhaps roleplaying a cautious guy who inches into each room, carefully scoping out the situation? Perhaps you could, but I don't think the game designers have given any consideration to the game being played in that way, therefore haven't thrown any bones for doing so. Oblivion IMO does throw you bones for doing so - maybe not in readily explainable terms like specific rewards, but as far as a rewardable game experience I found I enjoyed it far more. Just because you have the freedom *not* to stick to a roleplay scenario, and can do what you like, it doesn't mean that that's the most enjoyable way of playing the game (and it isn't - Oblivion, like Daggerfall and Morrowind before it, is much less fun if you don't discipline yourself).

[kalniel]

And I absolutely hate the persuasion 'mini-game'.
Oh I completely agree with you there - in my review of Oblivion there weren't all that many negative points, however that was definitely up there, along with over-accentuated level scaling, the oblivion realm, bad animations, poorer weather and sound effects, less books/lore, and occasional RAI mishaps.

[xSamhainx]

oh god, that persuasion game...

"I like that! I dont like that! Oh, you flatter me! I dont speak such rot! Oh stop, youre embarassing me! I like that! Youre good! Get Lost, creep! I like that!"

Like a manic bipolar disorder sufferer on methampetamine

[Dez]

Speechcraft is a pointless skill as it is more frustraiting than fun to persuate. Because of that i rather used bribing or charm spell.

Security was a pointless skill too, because the lockpicking minigame let you actually open very hard locks even when your skill level was merely 15... It should havebeen totally character skill based like in mw. That way players couldn't abuse it so easily. and in the long run, minigames become tedious no matter how cool devs thought them to be.

In addition thieving isn't very rewarding because of leveled loot....

And the skeleton key was way too overpowered.

[Corwin]

I never bothered to play the persuasion game and it never affected anything worth mentioning!! I'm surprised there isn't a mod which simply deletes it!! :)

[Cormac]

I persuade with gold.
That persuasion thing is probably the stupidest feature of OB. And it's in real time, while the lockpicking minigame isnt. WTF ?