The mess that is Brogar (spoilers)

[mbuddha]

I will say that after spending some time in town, the dialog interactions are generally very smooth and make sense. But Brogar was another story entirely… Here's what happened to me in the spoiler space

When I started talking to him, he told me to get meat, I accepted the quest and left. Then I returned and told him to get it himself, to which he commanded the boys to teach me a lesson. Uh oh, I readied my sword and … nothing happened. I talked to Brogar again and he acted like I just got my ass handed to me, and so did my character. Okay…. I was also able to tell Sam that Brogar said he could hunt again, but I hadn't even talked to Brogar about that. I went back to Brogar and asked if Sam could, and Brogar said no. Um….. You can pickpocket a quest item from Brogar, which I did. The game treats it as though you beat his ass and you tell him "when you were out cold… I took the item from you" but I pickpocketed it from him…. I think there was another big fuck up but I can't remember it. I certainly hope they get this sorted out in a patch.

[Wulf]

This post should have been named "the mess that is mbuddha" :lol:

Doug gives you meat for Rachel but it is'nt enough, so be doing the mundane "fetch-me-this" quests you will in fact collect meat, collect sword parts etc.
You have to do these quests to "worm" your way into the confidence of the camp, refusing won't get you far. Everything went super smooth for me with the swamp camp quests.

Another fine mess indeed, it would be best to use the Risen "spoiler" forum for this type of questions as there will certainly be spoiler answers. ;)

[Majnun]

Yeah, I also got the dialogue option with Sam telling him Brogar said he could return to hunting before I ever cleared that up with Brogar. I knew it was weird though and didn't click it until I actually earned it though, only because I assumed it might break something quest-wise.

[mbuddha]

Doug gives you meat for Rachel but it is'nt enough, so be doing the mundane "fetch-me-this" quests you will in fact collect meat, collect sword parts etc.
You have to do these quests to "worm" your way into the confidence of the camp, refusing won't get you far. Everything went super smooth for me with the swamp camp quests.

Well I'm glad it worked out for you, but it's definitely bugged. Getting told I'm going to be attacked and then that not happening but everyone thinks it did is a bug, among others. It has nothing to with doing fetch me quests and it was not smooth at all. Guess you chose the options in the order the developers expected you to so you get a gold star.

Anyways the spoiler forum is a couple days old so I missed it.

[Darundo]

Same thing happened to me. except when i spoke with lorenzo (spelling) he did attack me. but then i reloaded the save and started that part over :P

[RivianWitch]

I agree with that this part was not programmed properly. I could also tell Sam it was sorted out when it wasn't, etc. The game should be programmed in a way to allow for whatever eventuality in the player's actions; the player shouldn't be saying: "Oops, I guess I'm doing this in the wrong order."

That is sloppy game design, and completely breaks the immersion.

[mute]

I had massive trouble in the swamp. Went there first and then to town when people stopped talking to me. Went back again and people still ignored me.

Solution:
I learned pickpocking from phil and stole the last sword from Brogar.
The response later from Brogar: "You knocked me down...". Strange. Well. I got pass that part.

[Wulf]

Actually, Sam is a kind of double agent, he is really for the Don but lets Brogar think he is with him, no discrepancy, no sloppiness, no bad programming, a neat and devious twist.

[RivianWitch]

I can't help wondering why the dialogue option then, that I've sorted it out with Brogar, when I've not even spoken to Brogar...

[Wulf]

Why would any decent gamer playing Risen, when in the swamp, not talk with Brogar? - he has several overlapping dialogues and they're all separately implemented, they will not intermix by accident (although its easy to mistake one answer with another)

[Damian Mahadevan]

I guess they didnt want to break quests? I see this kind of complaint a lot for risen, would you guys prefer a quest chain stopped because you did something that isnt normal?

[RivianWitch]

No, with a lot of the quests the dialogue option appears to say that you had done something, when you had not.

Of course I spoke to Brogar - but the dialogue options appeared before I had, and this happens with many, many quests. Would it have been so hard to have the dialogue option trigger only once you had completed the action it claims you had?

[Wulf]

Re: - "This happens with many, many quests" Indeed it does --->

Dialogue option selection is a deep subject, but staying with the PB/Gothic series and into Risen, the triggering system is very similar (though there is now scrolling sub-selection in parts of the Risen dialogue choice)

You can select any, weather it be one or more or all dialogues from the selection. By choice you do not need to select any where 'END' is an option (no auto-flow dialogue) Some auto-correct flow will flow into the next auto-answer. Auto no-return branching can be critical (no going back - unless you reload a save game) there are consequence reactions for both dialogue choice and dialogue answer choices.

I know that some gamers will mouse-click on every dialogue option available just because its there - this is completely wrong.

When you select a dialogue, you wait for dialogue reaction which can flow into other question selection - but notice when, at any point where you can choose dialogue for another ongoing quest (or sub-quest as in eg:- an unfinnished quest progression within the choices) you can change there and exhaust that dialogue while leaving the others in limbo or half answered or 'apparently-answered' or to be exact "not answered" in a state of incomplete exhaustion - confusing and intentional pitfalls for the unwary gamer who is not paying full attention. I love this kind of *deceptive* (for want of a better word) dialogue choice system where you have to follow the grammatical logic flow with great attention or pay the consequences of quest failure.

[RivianWitch]

I see what you are saying, but the problem is that this is not consistent in all games. I would expect this kind of thing more from older Adventure games, where gamer's hands were not being held as much as they tend to be with modern games.

With most modern games, and indeed, even AG's, the gamer is expected to exhaust all possible dialogue choices.

Indeed, the politics going on in Risen, and the fact that certain dialogue options could land one in hot water, is a feature of the game that is partly expressed in the system you describe, - but how is the gamer to know this, beforehand, especially at the beginning of the game, where the politicking has not become clear yet?

A little warning as part of the tutorial /loading screen tips could have been added , or a little warning regarding this in the manual, and everybody, including you and I, would have been happy.

It is a sad fact though, that modern gamers have been "trained" to exhaust all possible dialogue options, and I think it is from this situation that confusion stems with this feature of Risen.

I do remember some of those old AG's where the very outcome of life or death often depended on your next dialogue choice. In fact, I actually applaud such a system, (makes things a lot more interesting, and forces you to think a bit instead of just dully clicking your mouse) but if that was what PB was aiming for, they should perhaps have polished the implentation of it slightly more, and been a bit more upfront with it, in order to avoid confusion, since these days, a lot of gamers are not used to the idea.

Not mentioning it at all, as for instance, part of the general tips and hints they have scattered around in the manual and loading screens, runs the risk of it seeming like sloppy programming, as had been my first impression.

Something like: "Careful of what you say to people. Not all dialogue options are always the best one." or: "Careful of which dialogue options you choose. They don't all have a positive or desired outcome." ;)

I know this should go without saying, but we are in 2009, and, well, I don't want to start a mudslinging match about what has been going on with many games these days. *shrug*

Anyway, there is a slight subtle difference between to have to choose between one dialogue option, or another, and the dialogue options simply not making sense.

For instance, me telling Brogar that I took the piece off him after defeating him in the ring; while in actual fact I had pickpocketed him, really does not make sense, and that is something your character just says; it's not one of those "either/or" options.

[guenthar]

The problem with getting the dialog option with you telling sam he can go back to hunting is a glitch. I got that option once and I had reloaded because of something else and that dialog didn't come up. I didn't get it again until I actually finished the quest.

[lanux128]

something similar happened to me. after i had brought him the meat from Rachel, there still was a dialog option - "get your own damn meat". of course, i didn't bother clicking it. :)

[Akimbo]

---- Edit: Nevermind, you can work around it and it rights itself eventually.

[JDR13]

3 quests that I never did finish in the Bandit camp.

1. Power Struggle. 2. The Hunters are to hunt again. 3. Gold Fever

I did everything I was asked to do, and exhausted every possible dialogue option, yet these quests were never taken off my active quests list.

[xSamhainx]

someone definitely messed up on the Brogar flowchart.

[mastorofpuppetz]

3 quests that I never did finish in the Bandit camp.

1. Power Struggle. 2. The Hunters are to hunt again. 3. Gold Fever

I did everything I was asked to do, and exhausted every possible dialogue option, yet these quests were never taken off my active quests list.

Blame the game for user incompetence. I at first thought to that there was an issue, until I played it through, if you do everything you are supposed to these quests will flow properly, Chances are you did something so these quests could not be completed. It is called consequences.

[JDR13]

Blame the game for user incompetence. I at first thought to that there was an issue, until I played it through, if you do everything you are supposed to these quests will flow properly, Chances are you did something so these quests could not be completed. It is called consequences.


Um....no. If they can't be completed because of "consequences", then you should receive some kind of "quest failed" message, rather than the quest just being stuck there. There's also a ton of people over at the official forums complaining about the same quests. That area is obviously a little buggy.

[Gorath]

Blame the game for user incompetence. I at first thought to that there was an issue, until I played it through, if you do everything you are supposed to these quests will flow properly, Chances are you did something so these quests could not be completed. It is called consequences.

We've received complaints about your posting behaviour. Such a thing hasn't happened in the last couple of months. Maybe you should calm down and see things less emotional.

[xSamhainx]

So youve literally went around and talked to everyone again, JD?

The Brogar list quest comes to mind, had to go give him the list to finally end what had been ended hours ago by other situations in the game.

[szokol]

Also have a problem with this guy.

Completed the protection money part, gave it all to Brogar, then talked to Rachel about it.
She sent me back to Brogar, to face him with the situation, or something like this.
I talked to Brogar, and he just sent me away, and now I am stuck with the quest.

I never did a single fight in the arena, maybe that is the problem?

[JDR13]

Well I figured out what my problem was, a poster at the official forum made me aware of something.

After you collect the all the protection money, and bring it back to Brogar, you are presented with a few different dialogue options. One is to give him the 200 gold, and another is to tell him that you are keeping the gold because you did all the work.

Well I figured if I didn't pay up he would simply kick my ass. I was pretty weak at the time, so I chose to give him the gold. Well apparently that decision ended up screwing 3 different quests for me.


- Now go and tell Brogar you've collected the money. And that you'll keep the 200 gold for yourself.

- Tell him that you could tell the Don about him. (Power Struggle quest complete) Then, speak to him again and ask him to send Sam back to hunting. He'll agreed.

- Tell Sam he's free to go back hunting.

- Go to Rachel, and tell her that Brogar has folded. Tell her about Sam back to hunting, and then that you have put everyone in the camp back to work. (Gold Fever quest complete).

http://forum.deepsilver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44683

[szokol]

Something is still wrong.
- Collected the money, but there is no new conversation option with Rachel.
- Talked to Brogar, didn't gave him the money. No other conv. options
- Talked to Rachel, she said I should tell Brogar about the Don.
- Talked to Brogar, he said noone will believe me, I haven't proved myself.
The End.
No conversation options about sam, or anything.

[Wulf]

Yep JDR13, thats how it worked for me at first run through, all quests completed, got Brogars hut then moved on. The dialogue choices can be sensed by gut feeling without the need for any serious thought. So on reflection, could'nt see what the big "bug" fuss was about because it never happened in the first place :D

[JDR13]

Not a bug, but definitely some poor game design imo. One wrong answer shouldn't cause you to be screwed on 3 different quests.

[xSamhainx]

i kicked his ass in the arena first (granted it took a few tries) so i wasnt too scared to defy the big oaf!

[Jaga]

I think if you deny him payment, he may refuse to fight you (regardless of whether or not you defeated all the camp fighters first). I didn't try however - I challenged him and beat him, and then told him I was keeping his coin. Bit like rubbing salt into the wound, but he deserved it. :D