ES4: Oblivion - CRPG of the Year @ GameSpy

[Kawika]

GameSpy has just announced Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion as their PC RPG of the Year (http://goty.gamespy.com/2006/pc/index13.html) for 2006. Congrats to Bethesda Softworks for bringing us such a wonderful title!
Though it certainly shares the space with an extremely worthy game (i.e., Neverwinter Nights 2), we just had to give Oblivion the nod for a number of reasons. Primarily, it's rare to see a game that is so deep and engrossing that remains so eminently accessible and playable. Whether you're an RPG vet or complete beginner, you're likely to be drawn in by Oblivion's masterfully created world. The attention to detail given to even the most insignificant elements sets a benchmark for the genre, one that, we suspect, won't be surpassed anytime soon.

More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=3225)

[pantheon]

Well, Bethesda obviously put the wrong game in the box I got. The Oblivion I played was a shallow, braindead, disjointed, dumbed down game that played more like a shooter than rpg.

[Dajjer]

I really have no problem with Oblivion being mentioned as RPG of the year on some web sites. When I played the game I had fun and the game is a huge seller. (I think). I know many hardcore players hate the game but with its success, it may allow developers an easier go when they're trying to get funding for their next CRPG.

[pantheon]

Every game company will aspire to emulate - everyone will be making rpg-lites. They will become the new shooter/rpg standard....

PB and other rpg developers will get canned by every reviewer for creating frustrating gameplay - what the FPS lover reviewers mean is frustration that they can't just 'go around killing things'.

Well, I guess it wouldn't hurt to have more rpg-lites on the market from shooter companies, just as long as some continue to make rpg's which require a brain to play - not just mindless combat.

[Moriendor]

...just as long as some continue to make rpg's which require a brain to play - not just mindless combat.

With all due respect but computer gaming might in general not exactly be the right kind of hobby if you're looking for work for your brain :biggrin: . I'd suggest learning a foreign language or to learn how to program (additional benfit: you'll be able to make your own brainy games after you have worked on your own brain for a while) if you're seriously looking for something that requires a brain.

After a couple of decades of gaming (if we include the C64 era), I have honestly yet to come across a game that truly requires any brain work. The ones that came closest were the (supposedly realistic) flight sims that I used to love in the 90s. Navigation and learning to read those flight charts did require a bit of thinking but elsewise I really can't think of anything that was an intellectual challenge. Ever.

So... what are those brainy games that you are talking about? Or are you just trying to make yourself feel better or look more intelligent by making derogatory remarks about action games? Watch out. That's your pants down there :biggrin: .

[Viking_Berserker_2]

Congrats to Bethesda Softworks for bringing us such a wonderful title!


Did anyone else crap their pants laughing after reading that?

[TheMadGamer]

Well, Bethesda obviously put the wrong game in the box I got. The Oblivion I played was a shallow, braindead, disjointed, dumbed down game that played more like a shooter than rpg.

There's really enough of these statements on Bethesda's official Oblivion forums. At the very least, if you're going to state things like, "... shallow, braindead, disjointed, dumbed down..." at least take a second or two to back up such statements with some actual reasons.

I've been gaming since the original Oddyssey (sp?) released back in the mid 70s. Played most of the 80s and 90s 'big' CRPGs like Ultima, Wizardry, Bard's Tale and the like.

I do agree with many of the criticisms about Oblivion that have been debated to nausiating effects on the official forums. But really, the end result is a fun game that never deserved the cynical reaction demonstrated by the so-called 'hard-core' CRPGers out there.

It's a fun game, and it was polished pretty well. Is it perfect? No. Then again, what game is? To learn that one gaming site has named Oblivion CRPG of the year really doesn't come as any surprise and I'm glad for Bethesda.

Now, hopefully Gothic 3 will get patched a little more so it won't drown into obscurity under its own weight... I really enjoy G3 and with some loving care via patches could still be a power-player among the recently released CRPGs... which I hope happens because I want to play a G4 and G5 and and G100!

[space captain]

hmm youd think a 35-40 year old man would know how to spell "nauseating"

maybe video games ARE bad for you!

[Brother None]

I know many hardcore players hate the game but with its success, it may allow developers an easier go when they're trying to get funding for their next CRPG.

Next cRPG? Uh, not to bug you or anything, but Bethesda hasn't actually ever made a game that could fairly be labelled "a cRPG". TES is a hack 'n slash dungeoncrawl series. Was from the beginning.

Moriendor: BookWorm Adventures!

EDIT: also, this is kinda weird, but, uhm, isn't this newspost a duplicate of the one about the Gamespy awards by Dhruin, a few steps back?

[Kawika]

EDIT: also, this is kinda weird, but, uhm, isn't this newspost a duplicate of the one about the Gamespy awards by Dhruin, a few steps back?

You're right...sort of. ;) Dhruin made a news post about GameSpy's top ten PC game picks which I hadn't noticed. My news post was about the winner of a specific category.

[xSamhainx]

TES 4 Life = ]

[the_oracles_cave]

a good choice, although personally i would have picked NWN2. either game was worthy.

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

Congrats to Bethesda Softworks for bringing us such a wonderful title!


Did anyone else crap their pants laughing after reading that?

I smirked. A bit. ;)

[Thaurin]

After a couple of decades of gaming (if we include the C64 era), I have honestly yet to come across a game that truly requires any brain work. [...] I really can't think of anything that was an intellectual challenge. Ever.

So... what are those brainy games that you are talking about?

11th Hour. Enough said. :D

[Corwin]

Here's a question: Which is the better GAME (not rpg), NWN2, Oblivion, or G3?

[txa1265]

I might have placed Oblivion as my 5th favorite and 4th 'best' RPG of the year, but I don't fault anyone for choosing it as #1 - it is an *amazing* technical achievement, even if hampered by the need to make it appealing as a console action game.

(faves - Avernum 4, Space Rangers 2, NWN2, Gothic 3 ... )

[txa1265]

Here's a question: Which is the better GAME (not rpg), NWN2, Oblivion, or G3?

My opinion? In terms of 'best game' (includes quality and polish)
NWN2, Oblivion, Gothic 3

Best RPG?
NWN2, Gothic 3, ...

[doctor_kaz]

Gamespot nominated Oblivion for "best story of the year". I wonder if they have any clue how utterly ridiculous that is.

[txa1265]

Gamespot nominated Oblivion for "best story of the year". I wonder if they have any clue how utterly ridiculous that is.

I know - I wasn't going to say anything since it didn't win ... but for the many good things I can say about Oblivion, 'great story' is *not* one of them.

[doctor_kaz]

It's nominations like that which drive so many people's cynicism and suspicion of the gaming media. I don't consider myself a rabid Gothic fanboy at all, but I can understand where they are coming from in their complaints about media favoritism when Gamespot nominates games like Oblivion for awards like "best story". The story in that game sucked. It's hard to believe that a reasonable and unbiased person would honestly think that out of all the games that came out in 2006, Oblivion had one of the top four or five stories. It reminds me of when Gamespot wrote that Neverwinter Nights had a superb single player campaign that was one of the finest ever made. I sincerely wonder if money had to change hands for that one.

[bpstrat]

Here we go again, all of the Oblivion bashers are out in force. I understand if you don't like the game - that's fine. But just because you don't agree with all of the design choices Bethesda made, doesn't mean the game is horrible. Calling it a 'shooter,' please. It may share the same point of view and general control scheme, but that's about all. All of the shooters I've played have a pretty rigid, linear level progression with little player choice. That doesn't sound like Oblivion to me. And yes, it may be more action oriented than turn-based RPGs, but again, the game isn't supposed to be turn-based. The entire Elder Scrolls series has always had more 'action' than most RPGs.

[crpgnut]

If NWN2 was released with the DM client and tools in a finished state, I'd say it should have won. Since it was rushed though, Oblivion is the clear winner. Gothic 3 is just too buggy to win, though some here think it has an interesting storyline. I've never gotten into the (nameless, human only, who must be good in melee) aspect of the G-series, but many love it. Oblivion's hugest flaw was leveled combat. Whoever thought that was cool should be canned. Of course, this was modded in less than 2 weeks after release because Bethesda released a fairly decent toolset that was in working order from day one. Without a couple of mods, Oblivion is a lesser game. Kudos to Bethesda for allowing their masterpiece to be changed with minimal effort. If I could mod out Gothic's bugs in a week and lower the combat difficulty of beasts in general, then G3 might be in the running. Though for me personally, magic needs to be buffed severely :)

[doctor_kaz]

I think that NWN2 could have been a superb game with about 2 months more in the oven. Gothic 3, on the other hand, has such major problems at its core that it would take a year. I still enjoyed it though.

[txa1265]

I think that NWN2 could have been a superb game with about 2 months more in the oven.
I think that as of 1.03 the single player is in excellent shape ... so it just needed ~1 more month in the overn ;)

Gothic 3, on the other hand, has such major problems at its core that it would take a year. I still enjoyed it though.
Very much agree - which is why it is on my 'top 10 faves' of the year while also being my #1 disappointment.

[doctor_kaz]

I think that with version 1.03, NWN2 still needs improvements. The interface and party controls still aren't quite as easy to use as they were for the Bioware Infinity Engine, in my opinion.

[Greymane]

I whole heartedly agree with Oblivion being CRPG of the year.
Being a role player, means more of a desire to be transported to a magical land as a more than capable adventurer and forging your own destiny. Oblvion clearly provides that world in aces. I believe some of it's detractors simply can't handle 'white space' in a game and need that ring in the nose constantly leading them with new dancing ponies to entertain them at every new turn in the road, and I frankly have to say, if you're that type of player, you're not a role player, you're just a computer gamer.
I also don't think it's main detractors even finished 20% of the game. Just the Dark Brotherhood series of quests alone was a mini-masterpiece.
No, it wasn't perfect, but there is no perfect in gaming, only enjoyable or not enjoyable, and my computer role playing world is definitely enhanced by being able to enjoy Oblivion.
I haven't purchased NWN2 or Gothic 3 , although I loved their predecessors greatly, due to their unfinished and nearly unplayable state in the case of Gothic 3, that is just not acceptable. I also see them both as more of a 'lead you around by the nose and show you dancing ponies at each turn' type of games and not true role playing worlds.. which is my personal preference.
Just my opinion, you are welcome to yours.

[TheMadGamer]

hmm youd think a 35-40 year old man would know how to spell "nauseating" maybe video games ARE bad for you!

Too much of anything is usually a bad thing...

Thanks for being the board's spelling police. I'm sure everyone loved reading your on-topic reply. /golfclap

[txa1265]

I also don't think it's main detractors even finished 20% of the game. Just the Dark Brotherhood series of quests alone was a mini-masterpiece.

Of course, those are inherently evil, and as a good aligned character who tries to actually 'role play' (in other words, take and stick with a set of moral and behavioural norms) I *cannot* take those ...

[Thaurin]

Of course, those are inherently evil, and as a good aligned character who tries to actually 'role play' (in other words, take and stick with a set of moral and behavioural norms) I *cannot* take those ...

Unless, of course, it is to infiltrate within this evil organization to take them out from the inside. ;)

behavioural

*gasp* An American with English spelling. ;)

[the_oracles_cave]

Of course, those are inherently evil, and as a good aligned character who tries to actually 'role play' (in other words, take and stick with a set of moral and behavioural norms) I *cannot* take those ...

nothing to stop you creating an evil character just to try them out though :)

[txa1265]

nothing to stop you creating an evil character just to try them out though :)

Of course, there is nothing to stop a good character from taking them, or anything else looking like consequences of actions ... but *that* is a different story ...

[Corwin]

Exactly, there is no real roleplaying in Oblivion, even though I enjoyed the time I spent with my modded version!! As a 'good' character, I couldn't do those quests either, and I almost never play evil, I just find I don't enjoy the experience!!

[Dez]

Right on the spot Corwin!!

Modded oblivion is a fun game. Unmodded oblivion is rubbish! ;)

I understand why people like oblivion and to be fair I like it too, but at the end of the day it doesn't offer much roleplaying value for me. Sure the magic system is very complex, sure there is a lot do and combat is quite cool The world is huuuge and physics blow your brains away. Still I have to ask where are the choises to make impact on the world? where is the gripping story that forces me to play just one hour more? I can't be immersed if MArtin doesn't mind when i'm killing innocent civilians. Or if i can lead thieves guild and dark brotherhood at the same time. Or if I can enter mages guild without any magic skills and progress through it's ranks.

Also what really annoys me is that how this game holds my hand all the time. It doesn't let me get lost unless i use mods to disable the compass. And fast travel ruins any immersion that i'm there. Don't use it someone said. Well its quite tempting when you know that walking is stupid if you can just teleport from place a to place b instantly.

Luckily mods saved the day for me.

Lastly I wonder why people don't mind that benthesa hasn't still released new bug fix .

[txa1265]

People often mistake my broad criticisms of Oblivion and my classifying it as more of an action game as meaning I didn't like it - I *did* like it, moreso after I stopped thinking about it as an RPG.

[Danicek]

Well, even though I did not like Oblivion that much, I would probably vote for it as well. I can't think of any other title I could choose instead.

[Corwin]

While I'm basically enjoying NWN2, I have several major issues with it, that REALLY annoy me; G3 is a flawed gem, and Oblivion is an action game with rpg elements as roqua would say!! :) I'd like to vote for Grimoire, but it hasn't been released yet!! :biggrin:

[Ionstormsucks]

These guys are so gonna screw up Fallout 3.

[Danicek]

These guys are so gonna screw up Fallout 3.

I hope not! :-[]

[hiciacit]

I believe some of it's detractors simply can't handle 'white space' in a game and need that ring in the nose constantly leading them with new dancing ponies to entertain them at every new turn in the road, and I frankly have to say, if you're that type of player, you're not a role player, you're just a computer gamer.

Ah the proverbial ring in the nose. You mean like a quest compass and pop-ups telling you what to do at everey f* step of the way?

[txa1265]

Ah the proverbial ring in the nose. You mean like a quest compass and pop-ups telling you what to do at everey f* step of the way?

You mean that wasn't just part of the 100 hour tutorial for Medal of Honor: Cyrodiil Assault ;)

[KazikluBey]

Being a role player, means more of a desire to be transported to a magical land as a more than capable adventurer and forging your own destiny. Oblvion clearly provides that world in aces. I believe some of it's detractors simply can't handle 'white space' in a game and need that ring in the nose constantly leading them with new dancing ponies to entertain them at every new turn in the road, and I frankly have to say, if you're that type of player, you're not a role player, you're just a computer gamer.

In what way are you allowed to forge your own destiny? The game consists of only hand-holding linear quest lines! The only choices you get to make are things like, "Do I want to become the head of this guild, that one, or maybe all of them?". There aren't even any alternative ways to finish any quest. I must say I agree with hiciacit about the nose ring.

I also don't think it's main detractors even finished 20% of the game. Just the Dark Brotherhood series of quests alone was a mini-masterpiece.
I've finished the main story-line, DB, the Fighters Guild, and what I estimate to be around half of the Thieves Guild and Mages Guild lines. The Dark Brotherhood is indeed excellent, until you start to work directly for Lucien about half/two thirds into the quest line, after which it goes turns mediocre. The ending was annoying, since the game didn't let me do as my character would have done. Instant "immersion" breaker.

Most of the quests in Oblivion are good, but I would have enjoyed them a lot more if it wasn't for the pop-ups telling me what to do, and the quest markers telling me exactly where to go. And, as mentioned, the lack of alternative ways to resolve quests, which severely hampers the role playing experience for me.

I haven't purchased NWN2 or Gothic 3 , although I loved their predecessors greatly, due to their unfinished and nearly unplayable state in the case of Gothic 3, that is just not acceptable. I also see them both as more of a 'lead you around by the nose and show you dancing ponies at each turn' type of games and not true role playing worlds.. which is my personal preference.
Many Oblivion defenders accuse its detractors of not having played the game that they say they dislike. I actually felt like I had more freedom in NWN2, despite its rather railroaded approach to world exploration.

I can't say I've played any RPG released this year that I find worthy of being remembered as a "Best CRPG of the Year" however, but I haven't played Gothic 3 yet, even though it's sitting on my shelf. Partly because I'm awaiting patches, but I also have around 15 games (mainly older ones) on my "waiting to be played list", so I've been rather busy anyway.

[txa1265]

RPGCodex has an interesting take on the GameSpy awards here (http://www.rpgcodex.com/index.php#4497), noting:
As per its regrettable yearly habit, GameSpy has posted its 2006 Game of the Year lineup for PC. Apologies in advance for the length of this newspost, but 2006's GOTY account features delectable surprises for RPG aficionados:
And they go on to point out some 'interesting' stuff, most notably the cognitive dissonance of simultaneously giving Oblivion RPGotY and #2 overall, while also giving Mod of the Year to something that reworks many of the games flaws ...
So, to recap: Oblivion is RPG of the Year and #2 on the list of best PC games of 2006, but it lacks "a feeling of progression", "satisfying" victories, and apparently even logic - all of which OOO introduces, thereby winning Mod of the Year.

[KazikluBey]

Yar, that is hilarious.

[Kawika]

HA! HA! Nice find there Mike.

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

You know, one of these days I'm going to have to try OOO. See if it really fixes all the problems with OB... I might then actually get my money's worth out of buying that game after all ;)

[Maylander]

NWN2 is the only proper cRPG this year in my opinion. Games like Gothic 3, Oblivion and so on may be defined as action RPGs, and they may sell a lot and be hits and what not, but they are certainly not cRPGs. As much as I love Gothic 3 (not going to comment Oblivion) I'd still say it would be wrong for it to win a title in a category it's not in at all. NWN2 is, however, the best cRPG I've played for years.

[Corwin]

While there's a lot to like in NWN 2, there's also a great deal I don't like!! I still consider G3 an rpg, but that's a different thread!! :)

[Hedek]

NWN2 is the only proper cRPG this year in my opinion. Games like Gothic 3, Oblivion and so on may be defined as action RPGs, and they may sell a lot and be hits and what not, but they are certainly not cRPGs. As much as I love Gothic 3 (not going to comment Oblivion) I'd still say it would be wrong for it to win a title in a category it's not in at all. NWN2 is, however, the best cRPG I've played for years.

Imo what all this really means is that 2006 has been a poor year for cRPG lovers. NWN2 not as polished as we would have liked, Oblivion and G3 arguably not true RPGs and both not polished enough either.
(one of) My wish for 2007 : a better year for RPGs :)

PS: RPG hungry as I am I ended up reinstalling and playing again this year Fallout 1, Fallout 2, BG1, BG2, Planescape: Torment, Kotor 1 and Kotor 2 on top of NWN2 (haven't tried Oblivion or G3) and a few indie releases. I hope 2007 will add fresh new names to my "played this year" list.

[Viking_Berserker_2]

I smirked. A bit. ;)

Nice to know some people have some brain cells :-)

[Cormac]

VK 1 & 2 = dumbass(es)
Oblivion = RPG of the year

(No offense meant to Sorcha, by the way)

[Dez]

Lets keep our fingers crossed that hellgate london and witcher can deliver us what they have promised :)

[DArtagnan]

Given the competitors I think Oblivion was probably the best candidate for GOTY.

That said, the game is mostly impressive from a technical standpoint. They managed to put together some pretty amazing features into a mostly seamless whole. When you consider what goes on, on screen, and under the hood, you can't help but be awestruck if you're running it on a decent rig.

Unfortunately they made a handful of utterly horrible design mistakes, which is particularly tragic when you think how easily they could have been avoided. Firstly, the idea of levelling encounters to match the player is simply incredible in its basic lack of comprehension of what makes a CRPG fun. Secondly, but perhaps more subjective, I've always found the character system in ES games extremely hollow. I like the idea of skillbased RPGs as much as the next guy, but the implementation in all ES games has always been unbelievably stolid and boring. No one enjoys seeing their skill go from 34 to 35, and it makes no tangible difference. I know they tried to introduce "feats" at certain intervals, but it was far from enough to compensate for the general shortcomings of the system.

Secondly, the idea that you had to anally micromanage your skilluse to avoid gimping your character (attributes) is inept to a high degree.

Those are probably the worst ideas and ultimately ruined the unmodded experience for me, and many others.

There were also some unfortunate side effects of matching the game for Xbox 360 specs, and here I'm particularly unfond of the unnecessarily small cells (causing constant loading interruptions, the horribly ugly distance textures, and last but not least the subpar interface.

I know most of these concerns are fixable with mods, but apart from that being a somewhat weak solution from Beth's perspective, it also has had the sad consequence of becoming a mini-game in itself. You know, browsing the web for new mods, always new mods, and the constant pains of trying to make them all work together. I think I've spent more time fiddling with mods than playing the damn game, and it's just not what it could have been.

Oh well...

[Corwin]

I think most of us would agree with you. The only point I could make is that despite its many faults (which can be fixed) G3 is a better GAME!!

[DArtagnan]

G3 is potentially better, yes. But at its current stage, not to mention release stage, it's not better.

That HAS to be all that matters. PB/JW MUST learn to respect their customers enough to dedicate whatever time/resources are necessary for a stable release version. If it takes a less ambitious product, then so be it.

[txa1265]

G3 is potentially better, yes. But at its current stage, not to mention release stage, it's not better.

I think that several here disagree - we agree it is still very buggy and unoptimized and problematic ... but many of us think it is still a better game.

[DArtagnan]

I think that several here disagree - we agree it is still very buggy and unoptimized and problematic ... but many of us think it is still a better game.

Of course opinions differ.

But, still, are you truly willing to look beyond the absolutely HORRID balance of the combat system, and the equally sad state of item progression. I mean, you can STILL buy the best 1H sword in the game right from the get-go. Flame Sword, which completely eliminates the desire for upgrades to weapons.

I could of course go on about many other flaws, but you get what I mean. I also have a great respect for G3 because of the potential. The game itself has a lot more going for it than Oblivion, if you simply consider the "fun". Maybe it's just me, but no matter how good elements are in a game, I simply won't accept what IS basically a broken product. Call me a stubborn principle-driven moron, but it's just not right to the fans to release a game in this state.

[Corwin]

Hey, we're not arguing the game should have been released in the state it was in, but show me one recently released 'big' rpg that is in a proper state upon release!! And NO, I don't consider Oblivion to be a candidate for several reasons!! :)

[Dhruin]

Personally, I would say I like Gothic 3 more despite the release condition and other issues. I find it perfectly playable - just terribly unpolished.*

However, while I think it would be reasonable for a CRPG site such as ourselves to name Gothic as GotY, I think any mainstream site like GameSpy would be out of their minds to choose it - it just has too many issues for the average gamer. I would also argue (despite not being that big a fan) that Oblivion was one of (if not the) most polished and bug-free major CRPG release I can recall.

*"Polish" is an interesting thing. For example, Gothic 3 has weak combat but you can left-click-spam-fest through a lot of it. Does that make the combat any worse than a game where that sort of combat is expected, such as Diablo? It has some dodgy animations and graphical issues...but does that make it worse than a game that started with lower graphical standards in the first place...say, a Spiderweb game, which I perfectly enjoy?

[Maylander]

From a technical point of view, Oblivion is very far from impressive. Compared to the complexity of games like NWN2 and G3 it's a rather simple piece of coding. Why? Everything has a single startpoint and only one outcome - every quest, every dialogue, bugdetection in such a code, where everything is linear, is a whole lot easier than bugdetection in complex code with multiple outcomes on virtually everything.

If you truly look under the hood of Oblivion, it's actually even less impressive than the game itself is. In fact, it looks more like GTA under there than any of its competitors to the RPG GOTY award. Of course, Oblivion looks stunning, and there is no doubt it took skill to make it look so beautiful, but the code itself is not advanced or impressive.

[curious]

not to be insulting but you must have not gotten far in the game if you think the flame sword is the best sword in the game. not counting 2-handed weapons there are at least 6 six swords that are better than the flame sword. and i thought the 'item progression' was well done considering all of the unique gear (~50 items) you can't buy, unlike most rpgs. i will agree it is an overpowered sword in the begining and it makes no sense that it does 20 more damage than the much rarer ice sword (which doesn't even freeze enemies.) it would be nice if playing the game on a higher difficulty level restricted the more powerful items you could buy...but i doubt that is the case in gothic 3.

keep up the good discussion.

[DArtagnan]

not to be insulting but you must have not gotten far in the game if you think the flame sword is the best sword in the game. not counting 2-handed weapons there are at least 6 six swords that are better than the flame sword. and i thought the 'item progression' was well done considering all of the unique gear (~50 items) you can't buy, unlike most rpgs. i will agree it is an overpowered sword in the begining and it makes no sense that it does 20 more damage than the much rarer ice sword (which doesn't even freeze enemies.) it would be nice if playing the game on a higher difficulty level restricted the more powerful items you could buy...but i doubt that is the case in gothic 3.

keep up the good discussion.

I was talking only about 1H weapons.

I wasn't aware of better swords, and I'm puzzled as I did quite a bit of research on JoWood/WoG forums about this issue, and everyone agreed it was the best sword in the game they found, even after completing it. I personally played for ~40 hours and covered 66% of the areas and came upon no sword that was better.

But, if you say there are better 1H swords, then I believe you and it's a relief. Now, they need only focus on making the combat system balanced and the game will be good enough for a full run-through.

[Maylander]

There are better weapons, but they can only be forged after completing a master blacksmiths quest in Nordmar. They can't be found anywhere.

[DArtagnan]

From a technical point of view, Oblivion is very far from impressive. Compared to the complexity of games like NWN2 and G3 it's a rather simple piece of coding. Why? Everything has a single startpoint and only one outcome - every quest, every dialogue, bugdetection in such a code, where everything is linear, is a whole lot easier than bugdetection in complex code with multiple outcomes on virtually everything.

If you truly look under the hood of Oblivion, it's actually even less impressive than the game itself is. In fact, it looks more like GTA under there than any of its competitors to the RPG GOTY award. Of course, Oblivion looks stunning, and there is no doubt it took skill to make it look so beautiful, but the code itself is not advanced or impressive.

Well, since I assume none of us have access to the source codes of said games, I estimate we can't speak too intelligently about the facts.

I personally consider the marriage of the licensed engines the most succesful I've seen so far. The Havok engine for physics, the 3D engine (GameBryo?), the SpeedTree engine, etc. are more or less seamlessly woven together in a way that far surpasses what is happening in Gothic 3, from a visual standpoint.

The physics in Oblivion, especially including the "realistic" mod, are amazingly well done. I don't think any game apart from Half Life 2 can rival this implementation.

Gothic 3 doesn't even appear to have physics of any kind.

I also find the Radiant AI to be more interesting than the scripted alternative in G3, even if it doesn't generate quite the same feeling of realism. Lots of interesting things are possible by playing around with the AI, though it rarely gets noticed because there's no good reason to play with it really. If you can't recognize at least this aspect as something impressive "under the hood", then you're being a bit harsh.

The dungeons, though separately loaded, are several times more impressive to look at than anything underground found in Gothic. No dungeons in any other CRPG come close, and I don't think there's any dedicated FPS that exceed them in visuals either. This isn't just "artistic" skill at work, it's also the fact that the engine runs extremely smooth compared to what goes on, on screen.

The water is done better than any other game I've seen, except perhaps for Silent Hunter 3 which is all about water.

The combat of Oblivion is also far more visceral and exciting, and is probably one of the most succesful first person melee combat engines ever made. This is a pretty amazing achievement, really, and I think it gets overlooked because it's "actiony". I know some people think it's easy to code/design/balance a combat engine like this, but judging from all those attempts that went wrong (previous ES games among them), I think it's safe to say this takes quite a bit of work to get right.

The stealth aspect rivals Thief, which is the generally accepted leader, and nothing similar in G3 comes close to this part of the game. The bow mechanics and feel is FAR superior to Gothic. It's practically a mini-Thief game in the midst of all the other gameplay options.

Magic is very pretty and combined with an excellent lighting engine, and some effects like Paralyze/Nightvision/Camouflage are very, very well done. Gothic 3 can't even light a torch without pausing for several seconds.

Don't get me started on the audio aspect, as that's currently bugged in G3 and apart from an amazing soundtrack, G3 is particularly weak in this area.

I admit the quests are pretty linear, and though there ARE several outcomes (just take the DB questline with rewards depending on how well you did), they're not exactly in the same league as Gothic 3 which has a more complex quest structure. Unfortunately, it lacks any kind of compelling cinematic aspect, which Oblivion does. Of course, it depends on your idea of compelling cinema, and I don't think it's that good, but the Dark Brother questline was pretty amazing for the most part.

Yes, the heavy scripts of Gothic 3 must have taken some complex logic coding, but that's not enough to triumph over Oblivion. I mean they made one of the most advanced AIs of any game to date, even if it's not that big a part of the gameplay.

All this doesn't make Oblivion *fun*, but denying its amazing technical accomplishments is just... well... denial.

[Corwin]

Whew, I'm glad you wrote your last line!! :)

[Maylander]

I'm talking coding here, and as a developer, I can honestly tell you that programming something completely linear, and something that constantly has various triggers both as starting and ending points, will give two very different codes - one being fairly short and easy to detect bugs in, and the other being several times longer with a whole lot more places where you can find bugs (which gives one of the games a more polished feel than the other).

As for combat - neither game are very "advanced" if we're talking developing, the mechanics in Might and Magic 6 ten years ago wasn't as physically correct, but it has a frightening number of similarities.

And Radiant AI? Seems to me like a simple loop with a random input that tells the NPC where to go and what to do, with a code for instance from 1 to 10, where 3 means "get food", 5 means "stop and talk to someone" etc. The easy thing about this kind of mechanic is that they can apply it to all NPCs and just change a few variables, but in Gothic 3 you have to script every damn one of them personally. That makes one extremely long code, and very difficult to maintain. I am not overly impressed by either AI to be honest, but I believe the way G3 does it involves more work and a higher risk that things can go wrong.

I have to stress this again though - I am not talking about visuals here. There is no denying that Oblivion is very impressive in that regard, and everything looks outstanding.

One of the difficulties in Gothic 3 is the no-loading. I personally feel they should've gone for a G2 solution; this would've greatly reduced the number of bugs and issues G3 has, as developing a no-load game is extremely hard. You never get to reset anything except when re-loading. Imagine the number of objects floating in the memory when running G3; no loads, so many NPCs running around all doing something scripted, so many questtriggers to keep track of all over the place - it's no wonder you get memory leak in a game like that. Truth be told, Oblivion had memory leak as well, altho not as big as G3s, probably resulting of some NPC objects that didn't terminate correctly, but that's another story.

Oh, and by the way, Gothic 3 has physics. You can't toss things around there, but other than that it's very similar to Oblivions (neither game will let you roll an apple down a hill, but in both games you can see corpses tumbling down, stopping in objects, etc).

And no, I don't have access to the source code, but I do work as a developer with C++/Java/C#, and when playing games I always try to figure out how they're built. It's not like they have some huge secret under there that no other developers have access to.

Oblivions coding is, from what I can see while playing the game, easier to develop and easier to maintain than Gothic 3s code. Believe it or not, but there is nothing revolutionary about that code, everything has been done before. The real difficulty in G3 is the queststructure and especially the no-loading. Why did they go for such a difficult solution? I don't know, must've felt it was the next big step after what they did in G2, but I feel they should've stuck to that way of doing it.

Of course, what is actually under the hood of either one of these games is difficult to predict, but based on what is actually seen in-game I have a rough idea of what is needed in terms of prgramming.

[DArtagnan]

Well, I'm not a developer, but I've done my share of coding, though nothing near what's required for a game of these magnitudes.

Even so, I was talking about being technically impressive, which most definitely includes the visual aspects of the game.

I don't feel like going back and forth claiming that Oblivion was a demanding game to code, because as you say, it's not something we can ever prove. I'm just under a VERY different impression regarding what it requires to code the aspects I mentioned. The way you talk about what goes on in Oblivion doesn't exactly support your claim to understand what goes into coding this kind of software.

Like claiming Gothic 3 uses a "no-load" engine (what a term) because that's a big misconception. It loads data constantly, which you might call streaming and as such it might seem like it doesn't load data, but it does indeed, and constantly so.

It's definitely not an easy thing to optimise, because you have a lot of things to consider, like harddisk speed and memory of the many hardware combinations out there, and only a select few games have done this well enough to justify the technology. Offhand I think World of Warcraft is the only game that has a close-to-completely-seamless world.

Radiant AI is A LOT more sophisticated than you seem to think, and though you can indeed adjust parameters for every NPC, there's just the matter of coding the AI itself before you can do that. You don't simply code "get food" and magically have NPCs go and get food, because how the hell would they know how to do that. You have to ENABLE them to get their food through a series of decisions and actions, and if you think that's easy I think you're assured a job anywhere in the industry.

But, whatever, I think I've stated my case well enough for now. It would seem pointless for the two of us to go back and forth with claims which we can't prove. If you think Gothic 3 is more impressive, technically, good for you. Let's agree to disagree.

[curious]

@maylander- there are other swords besides the the pure magic ore weapon recipes which there are only 3 and at least one of those maybe 2 is a two-hander. don't forget that the flame sword only does 100 damage and there are many swords out there that will do more or equal damage after you sharpen and bless them which each add 10 to the damage stat. and since magic weapons like the flame sword can't be sharpend, blessed or poisoned you can improved blades that become better.

[KazikluBey]

Radiant AI is A LOT more sophisticated than you seem to think, and though you can indeed adjust parameters for every NPC, there's just the matter of coding the AI itself before you can do that. You don't simply code "get food" and magically have NPCs go and get food, because how the hell would they know how to do that. You have to ENABLE them to get their food through a series of decisions and actions, and if you think that's easy I think you're assured a job anywhere in the industry.
Er, did I miss something? Every NPC in Oblivion I checked just used a simple scripted "go here at this hour, and there at that hour" after which they'd just lounge around and stare at walls until something interrupted them (such as another NPC coming close, resulting in them talking about mudcrabs, or you talking to them). I didn't even see a hint of that the NPCs were using any of the overhyped AI functions (such as feeding, knowing they need to sleep, etc) that Bethesda claimed were in the game.

[Cormac]

Er, did I miss something? Every NPC in Oblivion I checked just used a simple scripted "go here at this hour, and there at that hour" after which they'd just lounge around and stare at walls until something interrupted them (such as another NPC coming close, resulting in them talking about mudcrabs, or you talking to them). I didn't even see a hint of that the NPCs were using any of the overhyped AI functions (such as feeding, knowing they need to sleep, etc) that Bethesda claimed were in the game.

Yes you did miss it. They do eat, sleep, train, read books, etc. RAI is certainly not miraculous but it's arguably more sophisticated that what was found in previous ES games and in most RPGs.

[Corwin]

ANYTHING would have been more sophisticated that what was in previous ES games!! Their NPC's were always the worst of any; even M&M had better!!

[Maylander]

You have to program the code for getting food in any game where NPCs get food. That part is fairly obvious. And yes, the RAI, as Cormar said, is more sophisticated than what you get in most games, but it's not miraculous, and it's not groundbreaking in any way.

True curious, I forgot about sharpening. The base damage of the flame sword is fairly high, but it can't be enhanced in any way - other swords can. Especially those self-forged can get very high damage since they have a higher damage when made than those in stores.

Fair enough DArtagnan, let's agree to disagree.

Edit: Yes Corwin, I actually found the ten year old MM npcs better than those in Morrowind. At least not worse, hehe. Compared to MW, Oblivions AI certainly is a huge step in the right direction.

[KazikluBey]

Yes you did miss it. They do eat, sleep, train, read books, etc. RAI is certainly not miraculous but it's arguably more sophisticated that what was found in previous ES games and in most RPGs.
I know they eat, sleep and all that, but my point was that it's all scripted. In the Bethesda hype they said that NPCs would go eat of their own volition, and that they would buy food if they were lawful and steal it if they weren't. They don't do this. Take a look at this: http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Image:Tut3_img4.gif

All NPCs in Oblivion have schedules like that. Those packages just contain info on where to do what.

[Maylander]

There you have the variables I'm talking about. They all possess the same little AI and you change a few variables for each one and there you go. The reason it's not "scripted" as Gothic 3s AI is, is because their daily walk patterns and so on is not as set as it is in G3. They still do all the same things - in fact, they do less things(they don't work the forge etc) - but they are "more random" than in G3, and might actually do some different from day to day. You'll never notice this, but I believe it's there.

[abbaon]

They had bigger plans for RAI than that. People standing around to watch when fights broke out, shopping for things they need, setting dogs on fire. Then at some point in the project they stopped talking about all that and brought on a guy (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/701/701931p2.html) to write schedules. I wish they'd tell us what went wrong. Hey Corwin: interview.

[DArtagnan]

Well, if they took out the Radiant AI, that's certainly news to me.

When I play, I encounter NPCs doing many different things, and even in the quests where you have to follow them around, they do different stuff like sitting down to read, going to fetch something from a chest, going to different locations (not the same ones all the time), etc. I encounter NPCs on the road that sometimes go to hunt, or engage in conversations with guards, and you can follow them around their daily lives and you'll find they do different stuff.

If they're scripted to do the same things all day long like in G3, then apart from that not happening in my games, Bethesda has flat out lied about their AI.

But I guess you know what you're talking about, or you wouldn't claim such things.

Then I guess this part of Oblivion isn't as impressive as it seems to me. But I still think it ranks head and shoulders above G3 in the technical department.