Bethesda Softworks - Elder Scrolls MMO Rumours

[Dhruin]

"Unnamed sources" abound in this newsbit, so we are firmly in rumour territory. That said, it doesn't take a genius to work out that Bethsoft's parent company is doing something with their online division and it makes sense to use one of their successful existing IPs...and since they've denied working on a Fallout MMO in court, that makes an Elder Scrolls MMO seem a good bet.
Anyway, Duck and Cover claims Bethsoft has applied to get some court statements redacted (http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23626) - here's the relevant bit:
The big trade secret?: Bethesda has "tens and tens of millions of dollars" and "close to a hundred people"working on a "secret" "World Of Warcraft" type MMO and they don't want their competitors knowing about it. They've been working on it pretty heavily since 2007 after assigning the team in late 2006. According to testimony given by Bethesda, the development timetable for an MMO is 4 years, so that would mean they would be releasing this game next year.
VG247 then goes on to say they are "reliably informed" it's an Elder Scrolls MMO (http://www.vg247.com/2010/01/20/source-bethesdas-elder-scrolls-mmo-missed-its-2009-reveal/) and it missed the planned reveal last year. No surprises there, if true.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=14232)

[crpgnut]

Okay, I've never played an MMO though I did play Minions of Mirth for about 4 months and it was MMOish. To me, a great idea to get the TES single-player gamers interested would be release TES V about 2-3 months before a TES MMO and have the ending of V tie in directly with the beginning of the MMO. That might be the only way to "sucker" me in to trying such a game. I'd much rather see TES V than any online game and waiting 4+ years between games gets really old.

[JDR13]

I'd much rather see TES V than any online game and waiting 4+ years between games gets really old.


Same here, except that I wouldn't want any tie-in if they do make a MMO TES.

Keep them completely seperate please. :)

[Anderson]

Booo.

Stick to singleplayer, Bethesda.

[guenthar]

It won't make any difference if they make an MMO since it is a different group doing it. What it means is that it might lessen the amount of people wanting TES V to be an MMO. It does get a bit annoying when people a always complaining about Oblivion not being multiplayer.

[turian]

yay!
nothing better out there than playing with real humans.

[themadhatter]

Same here, except that I wouldn't want any tie-in if they do make a MMO TES. Keep them completely seperate please. :)
Same here…except that I wouldn't want another TES game. I cannot endure another four-plus years of insipid critics and gamers nattering on about how "grand" the latest mediocre title in that series is.
Actually, forget Bethesda Softworks entirely. If it's just going to be more Oblivion/Fallout 3 (come on, we can all admit they're the same game with a purely aesthetic setting swap) I'd sooner Zenimax invested their capital in whatever id Software is developing.
…bring on the Rage!

[Kostaz]

Maybe they'll follow the path Bioware took with KotOR,making it an MMO and trying to attract the fans of the series by saying that it will have story elements and stuff.

[JDR13]

Actually, forget Bethesda Softworks entirely. If it's just going to be more Oblivion/Fallout 3 (come on, we can all admit they're the same game with a purely aesthetic setting swap)


Bethesda has the ability to make great games, they've already proved that. Morrowind was fantastic, and I think Fallout 3 is pretty good as well. Hopefully they will learn from the mistakes they made with Oblivion, and make TES V a better game.

[Sergius64]

Bethesda has the ability to make great games, they've already proved that. Morrowind was fantastic, and I think Fallout 3 is pretty good as well. Hopefully they will learn from the mistakes they made with Oblivion, and make TES V a better game.

I agree that Morrowind was fantastic when I first played it, but I can't ever get back into it when I try to play it again. So I'm not sure if I though it was fantastic because it was the first TES game I played and it was a combination of game elements that were new to me that wowed me or that the game was really that good.

[Dez]

Booo.

Stick to singleplayer, Bethesda.

Yup. Its a shame that they had to do TES what Bioware is doing for Kotor, a perfectly fine singleplayer rpg series turned into boring MMORPG crap. Besides MMO arena is a lot tougher place to compete really. Many have tried and only few have succeeded. Then again I don't play mmos, so its their loss.

In fact I rarely play any multiplayer games these days. Occasional counterstrike or some other action game grabs my intrest sure, but I don't have energy or time those games require and I got dreadfully bored fighting agaist stupidity :) I want to relax in my free time not waste it in angry nerds. I got enough competative gaming during my quake years anyhow. Funny thing is that no matter the game, basic issues stay the same :P. I mean game is as fun as the people playing it.

I have noticed that multiplayer is most fun if you play it with people you know: friends or online buddies or something. It can sometimes happen with total strangers but nine times out of ten it becomes a frustraiting ordeal instead of the relexing quality moment you dreamt at work during your lunch break ;-)

[Badesumofu]

Oblivion played like an MMO without any other people in the world anyway. I don't know what a hardcore RPG fan has to mourn over TES going MMO. The series was lost to us with Oblivion, making the sequel to Oblivon an MMO just means they'd have to include even more quests, and much, much better game systems. The character, loot, combat and level scaling systems in Oblivon were nowhere near MMO standard. I think that WoW has shown us that one of the keys to a suessful MMO is robust game systems.

[pox67]

I am actually looking forward to this. Mostly for the exploration thing. Hopefully the MMO would have all lands open like Daggerfall did. I really enjoyed tripping around the different countries.

I am not big on playing with others but I do enjoy tripping around and exploring virtual worlds and MMOS always have the biggest worlds.

[skavenhorde]

yay!
nothing better out there than playing with real humans.

I'll have to disagree with you. A halfway decent AI beats playing against or with humans any day of the week. People are too annoying.

Now if you're playing with friends that is a whole different matter. There's nothing better than playing a game with a few close friends who you know won't whine like a little baby if you beat them. Blood Bowl is a great example of that. Some people whine like you just killed their cat if one of their players gets killed or they lose the game. I gave up playing online entirely when you couldn't trust anyone to actually finish the game when they were losing. There was a bug that people exploited to terminate the match so that they wouldn't get a loss on their record or so that one of their players wouldn't die.

That is just too frustating and ruined the online experience for me. I hear they fixed that bug, but still I'm hesitant to go back and play.

[Anderson]

yay!
nothing better out there than playing with real humans.

eh, screw real humans. Playing with buddies can be fun, but it's hard to get everyone's schedules lined up, so I always end up playing with random strangers. That seems completely pointless to me. Especially with an RPG.

The big draw of an RPG is immersion in a world of imagination. That immersion completely goes out the window, when you have some kid yammering in your ear.

Keep your MMOs and your real humans. Give me an immersive singleplayer RPG any day.

[Corwin]

Just want to point out the Team Corwin thread. :) We play DDO right now, but as we all know each other from here it's not like playing with total strangers. I'm planning on establishing an RPGWatch only guild on Khyber server as well, so some of you might consider that since it's a free MMO.

[Dhruin]

I don't want to play with other humans. Apart from how much they suck, I want to be the centre of my gaming. I want to be the hero (or the villain), I want to carefully choose the dialogue responses - not watch my mate over there do it. I'm sure there are advantages to many players but the story-based elements can never be as strong as single-player. BioWare can't do it with ToR - noone can. At the end of the day, we can't all make world-changing choices at the same time.

[skavenhorde]

At the end of the day, we can't all make world-changing choices at the same time.

Just picture a million 'Nerevarines' running around the countryside. :)

[Tragos]

I hate playing with humans too .

Beth should stick with Singleplayer . TES games (well the last 2 of them) were big commercial success as SP only .

[Lemonhead]

Aren't Bioware and Bethesda getting into the MMO-business a bit too late? The ship has sailed, no? From a money-making standpoint that is. Correct me if I'm wrong but monthly subscriptions seem to on the way out, so making craploads of money on MMO's isn't as easy anymore I would guess.

[skavenhorde]

Aren't Bioware and Bethesda getting into the MMO-business a bit too late? The ship has sailed, no? From a money-making standpoint that is. Correct me if I'm wrong but monthly subscriptions seem to on the way out, so making craploads of money on MMO's isn't as easy anymore I would guess.

WOW seems to be going strong. I'm not so sure about WAR. Last time I checked they were struggling to make a dent.

Speaking of WOW, why aren't people bored of it yet? I've never played that game, but there is no way I could ever keep playing a game for years on end. I would be bored out of my skull.

[wolfing]

I love MMOs, but this part I hope it's just for the "uninitiated"...
"Bethesda has "tens and tens of millions of dollars" and "close to a hundred people"working on a "secret" "World Of Warcraft" type MMO"

I hope the "WoW type MMO" means it's an MMO, and not an MMO just like WoW. WoW may be popular, but it's as simple as it can get.
I hope they take the good things about TES games, i.e., item and spell crafting, that's the thing I liked the most about TES.
The WoW model is not only too simple, it's antiquated and copied all over the place. SW:TOR is finally taking a different approach, I hope whatever they're working on also takes a different approach. I'm sick tired of the 'Kill 10 bears' and 'bring me 10 phoenix feathers' quests.

[themadhatter]

Bethesda has the ability to make great games, they've already proved that. Morrowind was fantastic, and I think Fallout 3 is pretty good as well. Hopefully they will learn from the mistakes they made with Oblivion, and make TES V a better game.

a) the Morrowind and Oblivion design teams were radically different, not only in composition but design philosophy. One (Morrowind) was concerned with the creation of a more "hardcore" RPG that would appeal to the niche they had built with Daggerfall. The other (Oblivion) pursued certain trends that would open them up to a broader demographic (hence the term "dumbing down").

b) We'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to Fallout 3, mate. I'm not arguing its merits as a Fallout game, nor as a game itself. Those are entirely unique points. No, my primary complaint is its emphasis on action-over-roleplaying that (again, my opinion) severely detracts from the experience. When you discuss the ability of a development team to create a new RPG and their latest success is clearly an Action game, that puts a damper on my enthusiasm for anything they might churn out.

c) I lack your faith in the ability of either Todd or Emil to so drastically shift their gameplay design philosophy for one reason: they made a bloody LOAD of cash off Oblivion. Why would they change back to the more "old-school" (or what have you) approach Morrowind took? Why attempt a niche RPG? If anything, they're likely to churn out a smaller gameworld with bigger explosions (figuratively speaking) and more bloom (literally speaking). Why? Because that's what the lowest common demographic, the console-crowd, enjoys.

[bemushroomed]

It's expected, but very disapointing if true (which im quite sure it is). I'd much rather see them doing a singel player TES. MMO's are so... soulless and lacking in the little details that makes Bethesda's games really great. I mean c'mon, a TES game without mods?? I can't even imagine playing such a game.

[Sergius64]

c) I lack your faith in the ability of either Todd or Emil to so drastically shift their gameplay design philosophy for one reason: they made a bloody LOAD of cash off Oblivion. Why would they change back to the more "old-school" (or what have you) approach Morrowind took? Why attempt a niche RPG? If anything, they're likely to churn out a smaller gameworld with bigger explosions (figuratively speaking) and more bloom (literally speaking). Why? Because that's what the lowest common demographic, the console-crowd, enjoys.

One could argue that so many people bought Oblivion because of its pretty looks and marketing hype, not the Consolish UI and piss poor list of skills. So from my angle there's no real reason not to build something that looks good, gets bunch of hype, but also has the deeper skill system and hopefully a more intresting premise then trying to close hundreds of hell gates that keep popping up everywhere.

[JemyM]

I will donate another $10 if the mods make sure news on Elder Scrolls + MMO never appears on this site again. :)

[Relayer]

I don't have time for MMO addictions (anymore), sorry Beth.

And I want ES: V. As much as I bash Oblivion, I love Morrowind to death and am hoping we get something a lot closer to Morrowind than Oblivion with the next installment.

They really have created a rich, unique universe, Morrowind was evidence of that.

They need to bring Ken Ralston back and to stop catering to console gamers.

[rune_74]

Such typical synical replies by "true" rpg fans...


Ahh well, there is alot of lore to the TES games, we saw that in daggerfall...this could be really good.

[Bedwyr]

I enjoyed Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3. I thought they were very good games and a good use of my dollar. I also still contend that much of the "hate-on" for the latter titles is more in reaction to the good reception the press gave than anything inherently bad in the the design.

I will not consider playing an MMO. I've been suckered in twice, seen it for what it is, and thrown my arms up both times. They all boil down to enjoying time with a friend in the weirdest way possible: "Boy this ditch-digging sure is fun, isn't it Billy Bob? I wish we could do this ALL the time."

I will donate another $10 if the mods make sure news on Elder Scrolls + MMO never appears on this site again.

This.

[themadhatter]

One could argue that so many people bought Oblivion because of its pretty looks and marketing hype, not the Consolish UI and piss poor list of skills. So from my angle there's no real reason not to build something that looks good, gets bunch of hype, but also has the deeper skill system and hopefully a more interesting premise then trying to close hundreds of hell gates that keep popping up everywhere.
You're kind of missing the point, mate, given that your argument boils down to "it's not the crappy mechanics and GUI that matter, who care's if they're present? It's the graphics! Ooooh, and how much people talk about the grafx!"
What's more, a simple answer to your post is this: time and resources. Creating a game that boasts more than fancy graphics means taking the time to do so. Why bother when it's already been proven that you need not go to such extremes, that mere fancy graphics and hype sell?
To reiterate: why would any successful company shift their design philosophy toward something that did not sell as well as their latest franchise product (Morrowind versus Oblivion). Ultimately, the final-word is that of the suits at Zenimax, not the designers at Bethesda. Even should Todd and his sycophants protest, Zenimax, like any mega-corporation, is concerned primarily with the bottom line and has already established how best to raise it: next-gen graphics tossed in with some fantasy fare and blood-splatter. Throw in some more boobs (TM) and their games will become little more than a cliche (ala DA).

Also, my apologies if this comes off as a personal attack, mate. It's not intended as such.

I enjoyed Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3. I thought they were very good games and a good use of my dollar. I also still contend that much of the "hate-on" for the latter titles is more in reaction to the good reception the press gave than anything inherently bad in the the design.
I cannot speak for the rest of the gaming community, but I assure you, mate, my distaste for Oblivion and F3 are not reactionary. I played each (completely) and found something to like in them, as well. However, those self-same personal experiences left such a bitter aftertaste when comparing the titles to truly "good" games. Take Oblivion versus Arx Fatalis. The latter, Arx, embraces a small world, focusing on a single-thread plotline that is consistently reinforced by the gameworld at all times. Nonetheless, your actions are pivotal to not only moving the story forward, but also (tangentially) in preserving the gameworld itself. What's more, the manner in which you approach the in-game scenarios makes a legitimate difference. The same cannot be said about Oblivion. It also goes without saying that comparing F3 to the earlier Fallouts is a wash. For that matter, compare F3 to shooters that came out at roughly the same time. You'll find, consistently, that F3 is the inferior game. Case in point: Fallout 3 versus S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (yes, even the second one).

[xSamhainx]

Im curious to see how this would actually pan out. Admitted Bethsoft fanboy here, all their previous releases have taken tons of my time, i dont see why this wouldnt be worth a look.

I think their style of games thus far lends itself well to an MMO environment. The problem being that one of the reasons I like their games is the lore, story and all that. Whether the unwashed masses would be as excited by the prospect of regaling in the TES lore as someone like me is doubtful tho…

[JemyM]

I will not consider playing an MMO. I've been suckered in twice, seen it for what it is, and thrown my arms up both times. They all boil down to enjoying time with a friend in the weirdest way possible: "Boy this ditch-digging sure is fun, isn't it Billy Bob? I wish we could do this ALL the time."

I have also been there, once. I am so happy I managed to cut the addiction.
I did a job on computer gaming addiction in my psychology course and I had to treat MMO's as a separate beast from other addictions.

I consider MMO's to be one of the most dangerous thanks to the social element. Giving up the game is not only to give up the game, but your "friends". Given enough time the online community are the only friends you got, therefore it's extremely difficult to break.

[skavenhorde]

I consider MMO's to be one of the most dangerous thanks to the social element. Giving up the game is not only to give up the game, but your "friends". Given enough time the online community are the only friends you got, therefore it's extremely difficult to break.

How is that different from real drugs? Drug addicts give up their old friends for drug friends. It's the same thing. I would say drugs are about a billion times worse than any silly mmo, but there is no real way to prove that. Unless you count all the people hooked on heroine, meth or crack. They lie, cheat, steal or sometimes kill to get their next fix. On average the only killing going on in a MMO is the virtual kind.

Anyway, you reminded me of this piece of news I read yesterday. Apparently a 16 year old boy ran away with his 42 year old-Warcraft Soulmate. (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2010/01/04/teenage-boy-runs-away-with-42-year-old-world-of-warcraft-soulmate/) Insanity thy name is Warcraft!!! :D

[DArtagnan]

How is that different from real drugs? Drug addicts give up their old friends for drug friends. It's the same thing. I would say drugs are about a billion times worse than any silly mmo, but there is no real way to prove that. Unless you count all the people hooked on heroine, meth or crack. They lie, cheat, steal or sometimes kill to get their next fix. On average the only killing going on in a MMO is the virtual kind.

Anyway, you reminded me of this piece of news I read yesterday. Apparently a 16 year old boy ran away with his 42 year old-Warcraft Soulmate. (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2010/01/04/teenage-boy-runs-away-with-42-year-old-world-of-warcraft-soulmate/) Insanity thy name is Warcraft!!! :D

I don't think the point is that it's more dangerous than drugs, but that it's not necessarily LESS dangerous.

The thing about MMOs is that the effects are extremely subtle in the beginning, and it's not yet stigmatised or recognized as a genuine problem. I can't tell you how many people I personally know who have been utterly unable to see the problem for what it was, and in a way it's not a problem until it controls you. I still know a bunch of people who I think are severely addicted to the genre, and yet you'd never get them to admit it. They'll give you the same old arguments every time, like: "I'd rather do this than go out drinking or watch TV." But they never used to drink every day or watch TV all day before. That's something you do when you have the time and nothing else to do. MMOs, for many, seems to be ALL they do.

Jemy is right in saying that the friends thing is rather unique to MMOs, because you start out thinking you're going to "accomplish" something together, in a guild. Like there's some grand goal worthy of investing all those many, many hours into it. We're talking day in and day out trying to accomplish something that's not real, and which doesn't really affect your life except in some common fantasy.

If that's not a little bit scary, I don't know what is.

[skavenhorde]

Are your friends functional as in have a job, pay their bills and respect the laws? If so then I'm sorry I disagree completely. If they are happy doing that, are not causing anyone harm and can still take care of their day to day lives then what is the problem? So what if they don't do what the 'norm' does.

Drugs on the other hand make it close to impossible to have a job, pay the bills and definitely do not respect the laws. I'm not even going to get started on the physical addition part of it. There are no MMO players going through the shakes when they stop playing.

[DArtagnan]

Are your friends functional as in have a job, pay their bills and respect the laws? If so then I'm sorry I disagree completely. If they are happy doing that, are not causing anyone harm and can still take care of their day to day lives then what is the problem? So what if they don't do what the 'norm' does.

You're welcome to disagree :)

If you consider obese and socially isolated, as well as no one to call their own to be a healthy life - then yeah, we disagree.

I'm not saying it's "wrong" or that I have "evidence" they're not doing what they should. I can't prove they're not happy, either. I'm just observing and telling you what I see.

I'm saying they're making themselves miserable, and the game seems to be a major factor in that process.

Also, I know more than one person who lost their job due to a lack of control with this genre, including myself when I was addicted. I consider that the least of the problems associated with it.

Drugs on the other hand make it close to impossible to have a job, pay the bills and definitely do not respect the laws. I'm not even going to get started on the physical addition part of it. There is no MMO player going through the shakes when they stop playing.

I have no idea why you think having a job, paying bills, and respecting laws constitutes a healthy fulfilling life - but that's where we differ.

[skavenhorde]

I have no idea why you think having a job, paying bills, and respecting laws constitutes a healthy fulfilling life - but that's where we differ.

You forgot happy. That is the most important part. Drugs take out any way of being a functional member of society and being happy.

As for the rest, well we've had this discussion before (I believe) and we'll just have to disagree.:) I believe certain drugs are far more insidious than any MMO game.

[DArtagnan]

You forgot happy. That is the most important part. Drugs takes out any way of being a functional member of society and being happy.

Ehm, obviously they're not happy in my eyes. If they were, then the discussion would be meaningless - wouldn't it?

Drugs don't implicitly remove the possibility of being happy, in my opinion.

But please remember that I consider drugs absolutely terrible and incredibly unhealthy as well. I lost my sister due to drugs, so it's not like I don't know what they're about.

As for the rest, well we've had this discussion before (I believe) and we'll just have to disagree.:) I believe certain drugs are far more insidious than any MMO game.

I don't really care what's more dangerous in what way.

All I'm saying is that both things have the potential to be devastating in terms of how they can affect your life.

But I'm fine with disagreeing :)

[skavenhorde]

I'm sorry about your sister. Lost my dad to alcohol so I know it freakin sucks big time.

I guess it's sorta silly debating about which one is worse. I just see myself in these descriptions of the 'horrors' of MMOs. Just replace MMO with single-player games and that's me. The thing is I know I'm different, but I'm happy. I go to work, have a girlfriend, pay my bills and Sarah even gets me out of the house every now and then, but that's the way I want it. I skip all the outings at work or even getting too close to the other people because I normally have next to nothing in common with them. Truthfully I don't want to go through all those social rituals. I never understood them and never will.

On the other hand I have a lot in common with the people here because my whole life can be wrapped up into three things: Sarah/work/games (in that order). I can talk to the people here about things I know about. I don't know anything about who won the world series or how cool it was mountain climbing. I don't really care about that.

The thing that really annoys me are people making this out to be a bad thing. Like I said before if they are happy and functional then who gives a rats behind what makes them happy.

Oh and btw not everyone who enjoys playing games is fat. I'm not, check out my picture if you don't believe me. It's in the 'post your picture' thread:D

Anyways, I just thought I'd give you a different perspective. Not everyone wants to be normal. I sure as hell don't. Normal people annoy the heck out of me :devilish:

[DArtagnan]

I'm sorry about your sister. Lost my dad to alcohol so I know it freakin sucks big time.

I guess it's sorta silly debating about which one is worse. I just see myself in these descriptions of the 'horrors' of MMOs. Just replace MMO with single-player games and that's me. The thing is I know I'm different, but I'm happy. I go to work, have a girlfriend, pay my bills and Sarah even gets me out of the house every now and then, but that's the way I want it. I skip all the outings at work or even getting too close to the other people because I normally have next to nothing in common with them. Truthfully I don't want to go through all those social rituals. I never understood them and never will.

On the other hand I have a lot in common with the people here because my whole life can be wrapped up into three things: Sarah/work/games (in that order). I can talk to the people here about things I know about. I don't know anything about who won the world series or how cool it was mountain climbing. I don't really care about that.

The thing that really annoys me are people making this out to be a bad thing. Like I said before if they are happy and functional then who gives a rats behind what makes them happy.

Oh and btw not everyone who enjoys playing games is fat. I'm not, check out my picture if you don't believe me. It's in the 'post your picture' thread:D

Anyways, I just thought I'd give you a different perspective. Not everyone wants to be normal. I sure as hell don't. Normal people annoy the heck out of me :devilish:

But no no, you're getting me all wrong here :)

There's a big difference between singleplayer games and MMOs. I know some people don't "get it" and think it's negligible - but it's absolutely vital and essential.

Singleplayer games END. MMOs don't.

Movies end, books end, dates end, dinner ends, walking ends, kissing ends, making love ends, and so on.

When something ends, you generally go do something else. It's sort of a natural rhythm. You start something, experience it, finish it - and that's a memory. That's a learning experience. You can reflect and progress.

MMOs don't end. You have to stop and not start again. They're based on you paying for them for as long as they can make you pay. But developers are human, and they can't recreate the game constantly, so it's not like singleplayer games where you experience something new in a new game. No, they have to stretch the content and make you work for months for what would take hours to achieve in a singleplayer game. They have to make you believe in the carrot. They have to make you believe that your time is worth those new pixels with a new text on them.

Nah, the genre is busted, imo.

[bemushroomed]

DArtagnan, what you mean is that they're very addictive, to some people. They end when you choose to otherwise. You could say that the TES games never ends either, since there are thousands of mods, and new are coming out, every day, and you can make your own quite easily too, something you can keep doing forever.

I had a lot of fun with WoW, socialy and as a strategic team based RPG game it was really fun and well made game, i don't regret the 1 year or so that i played it.. but its not the experience i want with a TES game.

[DArtagnan]

DArtagnan, what you mean is that they're very addictive, to some people. They end when you choose to otherwise. You could say that the TES games never ends either, since there are thousands of mods, and new are coming out, every day, and you can make your own quite easily too, something you can keep doing forever.

I had a lot of fun with WoW, socialy and as a strategic team based RPG game it was really fun and well made game, i don't regret the 1 year or so that i played it.. but its not the experience i want with a TES game.

I didn't say it was a problem for everyone, so I'm not sure I see your point.

Did you really think I meant everyone was automatically addicted?

TES games might not end, as you say, but generally most people stop playing them after a number of hours because there's no social setting to make anything consistent and developer content is limited. Basically, there isn't anyone around to take notice of your accomplishments and as such the sensation that you've achieved something meaningful is limited. The social dynamic of an MMO is probably what makes them so deceptively "meaningful". Of course, I can't decide what's meaningful for anyone else - but I certainly don't think they represent any kind of worthwhile effort when I consider time spent vs. reward received. That's what I think is the problem with the entire formula. I don't care what they do to cover it up, it's still limited content stretched as far as it can be.

MMOs, again, is something entirely different than a singleplayer game.

The fact that you and many, many others didn't have a problem doesn't mean they're not addictive and very dangerous to certain personalities.

[skavenhorde]

But no no, you're getting me all wrong here :)

There's a big difference between singleplayer games and MMOs. I know some people don't "get it" and think it's negligible - but it's absolutely vital and essential.

Singleplayer games END. MMOs don't.

Movies end, books end, dates end, dinner ends, walking ends, kissing ends, making love ends, and so on.

When something ends, you generally go do something else. It's sort of a natural rhythm. You start something, experience it, finish it - and that's a memory. That's a learning experience. You can reflect and progress.

MMOs don't end. You have to stop and not start again. They're based on you paying for them for as long as they can make you pay. But developers are human, and they can't recreate the game constantly, so it's not like singleplayer games where you experience something new in a new game. No, they have to stretch the content and make you work for months for what would take hours to achieve in a singleplayer game. They have to make you believe in the carrot. They have to make you believe that your time is worth those new pixels with a new text on them.

Nah, the genre is busted, imo.

Ok, I understand what your getting at now and agree. The carrot is always on that stick just right out of your reach. They never reach their goal and have to keep chugging along to keep trying to get that damn carrot. So yes, in a very strange way, mmos are a little like a drug addiction in that you are always on the prowl for the next fix.

There are some people who can handle it and others who can't. That is pretty much life as we know it. That is why I brought up all those basic things like working, paying the bills and causing no harm. If they do all of those things then they can handle their life (if it makes them happy) for the others who drop everything and stop living in the real world (at least enough to do what needs to be done) then they are the ones that need help. That's what I believe you were saying in the first place.

It is just wrong saying an mmo addict is the same as a drug addict (that was my original complaint with Jemmy's post. I'm not saying that you are doing this) Those are entirely two different beasts. MMOs might have some things in common with drug addicts, but still it's not even close to being the same thing.

[JemyM]

I think DArtagnan make most of the points I would make.

Like I said I made a job in psychology on gaming addictions and I analyzed different addictions from multiple perspectives. There are many reasons for addiction, some of the most noteworthy ones are;
1. tranquilizer, escaping from angst
2. filling needs
3. feeling a rush

The first question is if the addiction is an addiction in itself or a symptom of something else. Angst in your real life for other reasons might result in trying to escape into the addiction. The game isn't drawing the individual to it, it's rather a safe haven. Trying to stop their addiction by taking away the computer or something like that may have severe consequences because you take away their medication.

Similar to this is the needs. A MMO offer a job for an unemployed. An opportunity to gain ranks, status and reputation for a loser. Friends for one who never got friends. Sex (virtual) for someone who never got sex etc. The virtual life will thus become the individuals life, which unfortunately means that the issues in the real life remains and nothing is done to fix that problem.

Then we have the rush. People may have addictions to their own hormones. Some people have a rush for adrenaline which means they get a rush out of virtual violence. Some have a rush for dopamine which means they get a rush out of achieving something great. There are other kinds of hormones the game can give and the addicted seek this "fix".

But then there are plenty who begin to play the game like a normal game and find it very fun. They try the content which is usually designed to keep the gamer in place for hours upon hours. This game absorbs the player over time so that they spend more and more time with the game. The see that more time equals greater reward. But they also get engaged in the community, a guild, with actual people who may draw them back into the game. "Please come and play with us". They make virtual meetings, which for many Europeans means staying up in the middle of the night. Slowly they begin to give up their traditional life. Food becomes problematic, you begin to eat in front of the computer, switching to fast food, perhaps drinking decaffeinated sugary beverages. Many loose their health, increase in weight, loose their hygiene, stop caring about how they look. Other interests die out. They give up meetings with their friends to give them more time with the game. They loose friends and replace them with in-game friends. Their friends do not understand the game anyway and the game is all you know and can talk about. The most interesting thing you can answer if someone ask you what you did lately might be things like "I got a new level" or "I am in a guild". Some even loose their jobs and get into economical trouble.

As DArtagnan pointed out, MMO's are dangerous because people do not know the poison. One reason people do not know is that it's victims go away in isolation. And unlike singleplayer games, MMO's never end. MMO's can never be paused and resumed later at the same stage. If you take a break friends might go away and other aspects might change. You might loose your opportunity to get unique and one-time-chance rewards etc.

Read some of the design notes Ralph Koster wrote on Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. He specifically write how to design a game that exploits a gamers psychology to keep them mesmerized to the game.

MMO's are a designer drug.

[bemushroomed]

I didn't say it was a problem for everyone, so I'm not sure I see your point.

Did you really think I meant everyone was automatically addicted?


I never said that, so im not sure i see your point.

TES games might not end, as you say, but generally most people stop playing them after a number of hours because there's no social setting to make anything consistent and developer content is limited.


I've played Morrowind since release (2002), and i know many people that still do. The game even looks better than Oblivion now. The social setting is the community and the forum, it's no less addictive than playing a MMO. I don't think most people that play TES do it for the developer content, they do if for the thousands of great mods. The dev content is more like a tiny taste of what can be done with their engine, imo.


The fact that you and many, many others didn't have a problem doesn't mean they're not addictive and very dangerous to certain personalities.

Everything in existance can me misused / overused, drugs, sex, games, a kitchen knife, food, work etc. It doesnt mean those things are evil/bad, it just means that some people can't handle it and might need professional help, it will always be like that, and people who can handle it shouldnt need to suffer because of it.

[DArtagnan]

I've played Morrowind since release (2002), and i know many people that still do. The game even looks better than Oblivion now. The social setting is the community and the forum, it's no less addictive than playing a MMO. I don't think most people that play TES do it for the developer content, they do if for the thousands of great mods. The dev content is more like a tiny taste of what can be done with their engine, imo.

No, I don't agree with you at all.

I'm sure there's a tiny subset of players still playing Morrowind with mods, but compared with popular MMOs it's insignificant. You can claim that the social setting is the community and say it's the same thing as being in a guild in an MMO where you're expected to contribute daily - but I'd have to disagree entirely.

Everything in existance can me misused / overused, drugs, sex, games, a kitchen knife, food, work etc. It doesnt mean those things are evil/bad, it just means that some people can't handle it and might need professional help, it will always be like that, and people who can handle it shouldnt need to suffer because of it.

Who said anything about MMOs being evil?

We're talking about how they're very addictive to certain people, and I'm saying why it's a dangerous thing to dismiss the addiction as trivial.

But about people not being able to handle it, that's exactly my point. You bring up drugs yourself, and you say "that's just the way it is". I'm guessing you think drugs are fine and we shouldn't try to spread information about how they can affect your life?

I'm afraid I can't agree and I think it's very important to focus on things that represent a potential threat to a healthy life for those who're at risk.

If you're in no danger of becoming addicted, then maybe my post isn't directed at you and maybe you can safely ignore it? What's the point of trying to dismiss it unless you really think MMOs can't be addictive and harmful to people?

It seems to me that your position is not rational.

[Relayer]

anything inherently bad in the the design[/B].

You have got to be kidding.

- The amount of skills were reduced from Daggerfal to Morrowind to Oblivion.
- The level & loot scaling in Oblivion was horrific, making exploration and levelling in general quite pointless
- Compare the highly customizable user interface in Morrowind to Oblivion's
- Main quest in Morrowind was presented to you gradually, subtly, NATURALLY not so in Oblivion

These were just some of the bad design decisions made in Oblivion. Morrowind was extremely well received and even with its faults I still think it's an amazing and one of a kind experience.

[bemushroomed]

DArtagnan, i havent said it's trivial. I haven't said that there shouldn't be information about the dangers of drugs or MMO's. I'm just giving my point of view on the whole MMO thing, for me its been a positive experience, for you its been the opposite.

And i dont agree that MMO's are more addictive than, for example, a singelplayer game with mods, its just has to do with personal preference. I've probably spent more time creating mods than playing WoW by now.

MMO's is so easy to blame for everything these days it seems, they're the "big thing", has been for some time now, a lot of people play it, which also means greater numbers of people suffering from it, it means more bad publicity in the news etc etc. It's like alcohol compared to MDMA, more people have problems with alcohol, but its because its more wide spread in our culture, just like MMO's has been for some time. Before MMO's a lot of people played RTS games online, it was just as big.. many of my friends played those RTS games to no end.. before that it was something different.

[DArtagnan]

DArtagnan, i havent said it's trivial. I haven't said that there shouldn't be information about the dangers of drugs or MMO's. I'm just giving my point of view on the whole MMO thing, for me its been a positive experience, for you its been the opposite.

And i dont agree that MMO's are more addictive than, for example, a singelplayer game with mods, its just has to do with personal preference. I've probably spent more time creating mods than playing WoW by now.

MMO's is so easy to blame for everything these days it seems, they're the "big thing", has been for some time now, a lot of people play it, which also means greater numbers of people suffering from it, it means more bad publicity in the news etc etc. It's like alcohol compared to MDMA, more people have problems with alcohol, but its because its more wide spread in our culture, just like MMO's has been for some time. Before MMO's a lot of people played RTS games online, it was just as big.. many of my friends played those RTS games to no end.. before that it was something different.

Fair enough.

I personally find it amazing that you can't see how their very design makes them significantly more dangerous and unhealthy than a singleplayer game, but that's just that. The concept is unique precisely because of the things I've mentioned, like the social commitment and the never ending "hook".

I've had plenty of good experiences with MMOs, by the way, and it's unfortunate that it seems I'm "blaming them for everything" because I recognize the danger. It's not like it's just about my own personal experience, but also my experience with friends and even a loved one who has been affected by this genre.

It's not about assigning blame or taking away the responsibility you have as a person. It's more the pragmatic viewpoint of the genre being designed to keep you "hooked" indefinitely.

But, I think I've made my point - and we'll just have to disagree :)

[Corwin]

Actually, MMO's do have a built in 'end' for many players. It's called the level cap. Once I reach it in any game, I quickly lose interest. For me that was possibly my biggest issue with FO3; I reached the cap with more than half the game left to play!!

[xSamhainx]

I dont see why people finding "virtual" friends/love/power is a bad thing anyway. Some people have never really had friends, much less a girlfriend, or any type of feeling of community, or empowerment. And they probaby never will, just another Elenor Rigby, died alone and nobody gives a shit. I say if MMOs give some socially introverted and shy person a chance to experience relationships, even if its feeling the satisfaction of teamwork and fun playing with others, or leading a guild, or just messing around and talking dirty late at night w/ a member of the opposite sex - i think it's a good thing. Some people just arent meant for anything more, mmos may be some of the happiest times of their lives. I dont think its unhealthy, if anything its finally brought them out of their shell and made them part of something.

[Relayer]

I personally find it amazing that you can't see how their very design makes them significantly more dangerous and unhealthy than a singleplayer game,

You are suggesting that single player games are dangerous and unhealthy. This is ridiculous. That's like saying violent video games create real life violence.

If you already have an overly obsessive personality then yes, ANYTHING can potentially be unhealthy. Even food.

I was "addicted" to an MMORPG (Dark Age Of Camelot) for several years, played it very often, sometimes in marathon sessions spanning 6 or 7 hours. And when I wasn't playing it I was on forums dedicated to it or the guild I belonged to.

But I wouldn't say it was an unhealthy level of addiction. I played it for many consecutive hours only when I had the spare time, usually on a Saturday or Sunday when the wife and kids were doing their own thing or the weather was too lousy to go out. I'd take care of chores, meals and hygiene first of course and I still made it a point to exercise 3 to 4 days a week.

I never called in sick to stay home and play. During weekdays I logged off at a decent hour to get to bed. I still spent time with my kids & wife, still played single player games (though not as much), still read books, watched films, played guitar, had my meals away from the PC, etc.

So I enjoyed it immensely and there was some level of addiction there I guess: I sometimes couldn't wait to get home to log on and I would always check player stats/rankings several times a day. But I'm a somewhat normal person so the game didn't TOTALLY consume me, I still had a life aside from the game.

And when the wife wanted some "cuddling" time, I'd excuse myself from my guildies, carry her up to the bedroom and be back in game 3 minutes later. No neglect there :D

Seriously, it's no more unhealthy than the need to visit RPGWatch daily.

[DArtagnan]

You are suggesting that single player games are dangerous and unhealthy. This is ridiculous. That's like saying violent video games create real life violence.

If you already have an overly obsessive personality then yes, ANYTHING can potentially be unhealthy. Even food.

I was "addicted" to an MMORPG (Dark Age Of Camelot) for several years, played it very often, sometimes in marathon sessions spanning 6 or 7 hours. And when I wasn't playing it I was on forums dedicated to it or the guild I belonged to.

But I wouldn't say it was an unhealthy level of addiction. I played it for many consecutive hours only when I had the spare time, usually on a Saturday or Sunday when the wife and kids were doing their own thing or the weather was too lousy to go out. I'd take care of chores, meals and hygiene first of course and I still made it a point to exercise 3 to 4 days a week.

I never called in sick to stay home and play. During weekdays I logged off at a decent hour to get to bed. I still spent time with my kids & wife, still played single player games (though not as much), still read books, watched films, played guitar, had my meals away from the PC, etc.

So I enjoyed it immensely and there was some level of addiction there I guess: I sometimes couldn't wait to get home to log on and I would always check player stats/rankings several times a day. But I'm a somewhat normal person so the game didn't TOTALLY consume me, I still had a life aside from the game.

And when the wife wanted some "cuddling" time, I'd excuse myself from my guildies, carry her up to the bedroom and be back in game 3 minutes later. No neglect there :D

Seriously, it's no more unhealthy than the need to visit RPGWatch daily.

Is it really so hard to understand that I'm not talking about everyone?

You don't really need an "obsessive" personality for this to affect you negatively, as I've seen completely normal and otherwise non-addicts become seriously affected precisely because of the subtlety of the effects - at least at first.

I'm not here to judge anyone, and if your 7 years of time with DAoC felt worthwhile compared to whatever else you could have spent 7 years on, then you obviously don't have a problem. You say you never neglected anything while playing, which again, means you didn't have a problem. Some people do, though, and that's all I'm saying. It's really simple - and I'm sure every single person who ever played an MMO without feeling affected could come and say it's "ridiculous" to claim the games are potentially very unhealthy. That's a selfish and ignorant attitude, if you ask me, and it shows a lack of understanding of others. As long as there are people suffering from this addiction and there are people unable to control their playtime - it's something I think should be talked about.

Visiting RPGWatch daily carries no expectations from others, and there's no sensation of having "achieved" a goal built-in to the design. Besides, not a lot of people would feel compelled to neglect themselves and their families on a daily basis because they're posting here. It's a very casual site afterall.´

Besides, you don't want to know how hard it is for some people to acknowledge they have a problem in the first place. Since there's no "hard evidence" like drugs eventually carry - MMOs are especially easy to be addicted to without obvious tell-tale signs. People can say they don't neglect anything and they're happy inside - and it can be total bullshit. I've seen it more than once.

[DArtagnan]

Actually, MMO's do have a built in 'end' for many players. It's called the level cap. Once I reach it in any game, I quickly lose interest. For me that was possibly my biggest issue with FO3; I reached the cap with more than half the game left to play!!

Obviously, you haven't heard of the joys of the gear grind, expansions, and alts :)

[DArtagnan]

I dont see why people finding "virtual" friends/love/power is a bad thing anyway. Some people have never really had friends, much less a girlfriend, or any type of feeling of community, or empowerment. And they probaby never will, just another Elenor Rigby, died alone and nobody gives a shit. I say if MMOs give some socially introverted and shy person a chance to experience relationships, even if its feeling the satisfaction of teamwork and fun playing with others, or leading a guild, or just messing around and talking dirty late at night w/ a member of the opposite sex - i think it's a good thing. Some people just arent meant for anything more, mmos may be some of the happiest times of their lives. I dont think its unhealthy, if anything its finally brought them out of their shell and made them part of something.

Some people "aren't meant for anything more"? What does that mean anyway. Are you suggesting that everyone ever addicted to an MMO and who were neglecting themselves playing aren't meant for more and so it's ok?

I think that's a very unfortunate position, and I certainly can't agree.

Are there good things about MMOs? Definitely. Are they potentially unhealthy and dangerous due to their very design? Definitely.

[Anderson]

I say if MMOs give some socially introverted and shy person a chance to experience relationships, even if its feeling the satisfaction of teamwork and fun playing with others, or leading a guild, or just messing around and talking dirty late at night w/ a member of the opposite sex - i think it's a good thing. Some people just arent meant for anything more, mmos may be some of the happiest times of their lives. I dont think its unhealthy, if anything its finally brought them out of their shell and made them part of something.

I think that's okay, assuming they take that experience and use it as a springboard to real world relating. If that's the only level of relationship they ever achieve, that's not good. It's more like a sad little substitute, at that point. But potentially, I suppose it can be a bridge to something more meaningful, a step forward for people who are really socially anxious.

I have problems with the idea that "some people just aren't meant for anything more." We are all meant for something more than grinding away in an MMO as our relational life. As a stepping stone? Sure. As an endpoint? I sure hope not.

[QUOTE]You are suggesting that single player games are dangerous and unhealthy. This is ridiculous. That's like saying violent video games create real life violence.

No, he's saying MMOs are potentially addictive. I agree with him. Lots of things are potentially addictive. Potentially. Some have a direct route to our pleasure centers (e.g., cocaine). Some do not (MMOs), and so are pretty far down the dangerousness scale, compared to, e.g., crack cocaine. But the danger is still there, especially for people who are vulnerable.

I was "addicted" to an MMORPG (Dark Age Of Camelot) for several years, played it very often, sometimes in marathon sessions spanning 6 or 7 hours.

I would not call that an addiction, since you say your life wasn't negatively affected in any way. Without some kind of negative consequences from the use of the substance/process, it's just something you enjoy and are really passionate about.

Not everyone who works 100 hours a week is a "workaholic" for instance. Some of them just really enjoy their work. Others are driven to it, though, or their life is falling apart around them, or their whole being is centered around work productivity and little else, or they can't dial it back despite trying, etc. Then it's fair to talk about "addiction."

And when the wife wanted some "cuddling" time, I'd excuse myself from my guildies, carry her up to the bedroom and be back in game 3 minutes later.

She's a lucky woman. :D

As long as there are people suffering from this addiction and there are people unable to control their playtime - it's something I think should be talked about.

I agree. Having never played an MMO, I find it hard to understand the hook or the "high" people get from it — in fact, when I hear MMO play described, I feel bored — but I believe the addiction exists, and I think the topic is worthwhile.

[Relayer]

Is it really so hard to understand that I'm not talking about everyone?

You don't really need an "obsessive" personality for this to affect you negatively, as I've seen completely normal and otherwise non-addicts become seriously affected precisely because of the subtlety of the effects - at least at first.

It's not hard to understand. But for anyone to become seriously negatively affected by a video game (or anything at all, except for say substances that have physiological affects on a person), I truly believe there has to be some underlying problem or flaw in the personality to begin with.

Normal people don't neglect day to day responsibilities to the point where it produces serious negative effects. I don't buy that.

Now I could see it consume someone who has no friends, no family, no other hobbies or pastimes. But someone who already sits in front of a PC or console every minute of their spare time with no other goals or aspirations or the need to step out for fresh air or exercise once in a while or read a book or do anything semi-productive already has issues.

And as a gamer, you should not be putting a negative spin on gaming. That's what the non-gamers want. :)

Seriously, it just infuriates me when people call gaming unhealthy or dangerous. May as well call painting, writing, playing an instrument, collecting action figures, knitting, or poker unhealthy.

I'm not here to judge anyone, and if your 7 years of time with DAoC felt worthwhile compared to whatever else you could have spent 7 years on, then you obviously don't have a problem. You say you never neglected anything while playing, which again, means you didn't have a problem. Some people do, though, and that's all I'm saying."

7 years???? Don't think I ever said that. I played DAOC for 6 months at release then came back a couple of years later for another 2 years. My amount of playing peaked the first year of those 2 years and then tapered off gradually.

Still, the way you say "spent 7 years on" makes it seem as if that's the only thing I would have been doing.

[JDR13]

I see this thread continuing for a long time.....

[Relayer]

I agree. Having never played an MMO, I find it hard to understand the hook or the "high" people get from it — in fact, when I hear MMO play described, I feel bored — but I believe the addiction exists, and I think the topic is worthwhile.

Well with DAOC, to me it was the competition. It was about having our guild be in the top 5 guilds as far as points and about me trying to be # 1 in my particular class/server. That certainly drove me to keep playing.

Also, the people were nice and we'd play using voice chat so some days there wouldn't be any playing really, just a bunch of us chatting and goofing off. So there was the social aspect.

But above all, it was just fun. if you're not familiar with DAOC, it was a game based on the Camelot lore and you could belong to any one of 3 realms which were at war. The only reason I played was because of the player versus player as they called it in that game RvR (realm vs. realm).

It was a blast to storm an enemy tower in a group (of 8), kill it's guards and try to break down the gates with battering rams as quickly as possible before the real life players of that realm came to defend. Once we captured and defended a tower successfully, we'd move on the the next tower all the while putting the call to other guildies or realm mates to start taking other towers.

Eventually a few groups would make it to the enemy Keep, a much larger and strongly fortified stronghold than a tower obviously, take it over and thats where you'd have these hours long battles trying to maintain control of that particular keep.

Then at times we'd just roam in a group and just fight other roaming groups for the fun (and bragging rights) of it.

So it was a blast to play against other live players. But I honestly don't get how people can play other MMORPGs which involve nothing but quests and fights against computer controlled enemies.

That whole grinding to have the best weapons and rare items - THAT I don't get. For a 30 to 40 hour co-op game I can see playing with friends. But for years? That's where MMOs lose me. I'd rather play a single player game.

[Relayer]

I see this thread continuing for a long time…..

Hi all.
My name is Relayer.
And I'm a thread addict.

[Anderson]

But for anyone to become seriously negatively affected by a video game (or anything at all, except for say substances that have physiological affects on a person), I truly believe there has to be some underlying problem or flaw in the personality to begin with.


Right, and that's the way addiction always works. It's always the substance/process + the vulnerabilities of that person. It's not always simply "a flaw in the personality," though -- it can also relate to the culture (country, family) they are a part of, or their genetic heritage/vulnerability. But it certainly does have a lot to do with that person: their development, choices, unmet needs, unresolved issues (especially trauma), impulsivity, risk-taking ... just their overall psychology. Nothing is addictive in and of itself, not even heroin. It's always a combination of the substance/process plus the vulnerabilities of that particular person, in that particular environment.

Re. the hook or "high" of MMOs":

Well with DAOC, to me it was the competition. It was about having our guild be in the top 5 guilds as far as points and about me trying to be # 1 in my particular class/server. That certainly drove me to keep playing.

Also, the people were nice and we'd play using voice chat so some days there wouldn't be any playing really, just a bunch of us chatting and goofing off. So there was the social aspect.

But above all, it was just fun. ... It was a blast to storm an enemy tower in a group (of 8), kill it's guards and try to break down the gates with battering rams as quickly as possible before the real life players of that realm came to defend. Once we captured and defended a tower successfully, we'd move on the the next tower all the while putting the call to other guildies or realm mates to start taking other towers.

Sounds like the standard appeal of online gaming: competition, social chatter, and shared tasks/accomplishments. I'm afraid (or perhaps glad) that these things really don't appeal to me that much. I'm not a competitive guy. I'm an introvert so don't find social chatter entertaining. And I prefer working alone, since that gives me control over tasks, directions, choices, and pacing, whereas in co-op games, I always feel like my direction and pace is dictated by the group. Meh. I let my Xbox Live subscription expire a few days ago because after 6 years of trying to get myself to enjoy online gaming, I can't do it.

[Corwin]

The only way I enjoy online gaming is with friends. Makes all the difference.

[Bedwyr]

You have got to be kidding.

- The amount of skills were reduced from Daggerfal to Morrowind to Oblivion.
- The level & loot scaling in Oblivion was horrific, making exploration and levelling in general quite pointless
- Compare the highly customizable user interface in Morrowind to Oblivion's
- Main quest in Morrowind was presented to you gradually, subtly, NATURALLY not so in Oblivion

These were just some of the bad design decisions made in Oblivion. Morrowind was extremely well received and even with its faults I still think it's an amazing and one of a kind experience.

No. I'm not kidding. I contend that the "bad decisions" were of debatable importance in comparison with peoples' need to be right.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Incidentally: I agree on point 2, agree partly on point 1, disagree on 3 and 4.