They don't make them like this anymore

[KasperFauerby]

Ok, so the short version is: I'm thinking about playing an old classic CRPG, and I was hoping you guys could help me choose which one :)

The somewhat longer version: I'm a 32yo gamer, which means, that even though some people on these boards probably still think of me as a kid, I've been around pretty much since the early times in PC gaming. It's not like I'm stuck in the past or anything like that, though - in fact I believe I have a pretty positive approach to most games I play, old or new. So 2008 and 2009 were, for me, fine years for CRPGs with Risen, DAO, Drakensang etc.

I often get somewhat annoyed with "The Net" though, because personally I think there are way too many "complainers" out there :) (I know, nothing new) I mean, while I was playing and greatly enjoying all those games mentioned above, you could be pretty much sure that a bunch of people would be complaining about them - usually referring to just how much better games were in the old days.
Now, since (as mentioned earlier) I've been around for a while I have actually often played and enjoyed all those old games myself. I just don't see a reason why they should/could detract from the enjoyment of the new games coming out.

I'll give those people one thing though - when thinking back on all those *tons* of games I've played over the years, it's often the ones I played waaay back that really stands out in my memory. I'm pretty convinced that this has more to do with my age and experience with games back then, but I guess it's true that those old CRPGs had *something* that is simply not made anymore.

So, I'm considering taking a detour from all the modern CRPGs and play one of the oldies. It should not be a replay of one of the games I've already played (that would surely tint my view on it), but one of the really great games I've somehow missed. I think it would be interesting to see if those games can actually still deliver :)

I'm considering "Albion" or one of the "Realms of Arkania" games. Or maybe "Anvil of Dawn" (but I've played a bit of this one years back). I've never really played the Gold Box games either. So any ideas? What old "hardcore" CRPG do you think is so great, that even today it could capture a gamer solely by its gameplay?

I did something similar back around year 2000 (even for a 32yo that doesn't seem like *that* long ago..). I played many of the old Ultimas dor the first time back then, and I remember that Ultima 5 in particular got me completely hooked. I can't remember what else I was playing at the time (a good guess is one of the major releases from that year though) - but, simple graphics and all, Ultima 5 knocked them all aside :) Then I went on to play through U4, U1 and Akalabeth :)

[JDR13]

What old "hardcore" CRPG do you think is so great, that even today it could capture a gamer solely by its gameplay?


System Shock

Of course I don't know what your definition of "hardcore crpg" is, but that's the game that comes to mind when thinking about being captured solely by gameplay.

Well… story and atmosphere play a large part too. :)

[JemyM]

CRPG's released after Ultima I have no soul.

[DArtagnan]

The problem with old games is that the UI/convenience revolution actually did happen.

Gameplay is a tough one - but in my opinion the CRPG genre peaked in terms of complex and rich gameplay sometime in the mid-late nineties. There are exceptions and there will always be certain "steps forward" that can be hard to live without.

Even something as hollow as I consider Mass Effect 2 to be, can have absolutely fantastic visuals and voice acting - and going back to text-based quests can be kinda hard.

Gameplay might have stagnated and gone backwards, but technology has progressed to the point where certain things that simply weren't possible in the old days are possible today.

Seamless true 3D worlds, for instance, just wasn't possible back in the old days.

I can highly recommend the Goldbox series, though, but the visuals are awful and the UI archaic. But it works great for what it is.

[Arhu]

@KasperFauerby: Since you mentioned Albion, might I suggest Ambermoon on an Amiga Emulator? The prequel, Amberstar, is available for PC too, although its graphics are even older.

Albion was sort of an unofficial spiritual successor to the other two, a different game similar in style by some of the original team. Since it was made later it has better graphics and an improved interface and is as such probably easier to get into than the other two. I was often reminded of Albion when I watched the movie Avatar because there are lots of parallels (lush visuals, wondrous world, feline aliens, technology in a medieval setting). I didn't find the game as fun as Ambermoon though. In order of personal preference, I'd rate them: Ambermoon > Albion >= Amberstar.


System Shock is a game I'm tempted to play too, what with the new mouselook and all, although I previously said I didn't want to. I do have some appreciation for older graphics etc., but sometimes the control or interface limitations are too big for me.

PS: DArtagnan, I found myself in agreement with your views on lots of things lately, e.g. Mass Effect (2), Bioshock, now the interface thing ... curious.

[DArtagnan]

System Shock is a game I'm tempted to play too, what with the new mouselook and all, although I previously said I didn't want to. I do have some appreciation for older graphics etc., but sometimes the control or interface limitations are too big for me.

Just remember that it's not an RPG - but rather an action/adventure with a huge emphasis on exploration. It's probably not like that today, but I consider it the most immersive game of all time.

PS: DArtagnan, I found myself in agreement with your views on lots of things lately, e.g. Mass Effect (2), Bioshock, now the interface thing … curious.

That can't be good ;)

[KasperFauerby]

@JemyM: He heh..excellent :)

To all the rest - thanks for the suggestions so far! System Shock is definitely something to consider (and I actually never played the first one!), but I guess I had my mind more set on a "true" CRPG. I'll definitely look around for some more info about Ambermoon. I've heard the name beforce, of course, but I never connected it to Albion.

I pretty much agree with all you've said so far, and especially the points about UI. Looking at games like, for example, the ROA series that I've considered playing, I'm pretty sure the UI will be a much greater challenge than the gfx.

[wolfing]

Wizardry 7 would be a good choice. Or try the Quest for Glory series.

[Zaleukos]

First a disclaimer: In this context anything from Baldurs Gate onwards is "modern":p

Most of the really old RPGs I've played have either been dungeon crawlers (Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld) or fairly linear hack n slash affairs (the goldbox games). There are still some gems to be found if you can put up with the UIs.

Hacknslash with tactical battles: The various Goldbox titles. Funnily enough the oldest title (pool of radiance) is the most modern in terms of having an open world. In spite of the age these games have a fairly streamlined (keyboard only) interface that I dont find particularly clunky. I think Icewind Dale can be considered the spiritual heir to this tradition.
Hacknslash with character building: Might & Magic III-V. More interesting character building options, more open worlds, but less tactical actual battles compared to the Goldbox titles.
Dungeoncrawlers: Here I've only really played the Eye of the Beholder series, which is pretty solid craftsmanship. Puzzles and dungeon design are the strengths of the series.
The Realms of Arkania trilogy falls somewhere in between, the first title has a large open world, while the second only has a few dungeons and settlements on a huge map, IMHO making overland travel a chore. The tactical combat system gives you some options but is much worse than the goldbox titles. Decent dungeon puzzles. The ROA games have a very clunky interface though.
Darklands sports an elite with swords type of gameplay, large map with plenty of locations but ultimately mostly random generated content. Unique setting (somewhat historical 15th c Germany with alchemy and praying to saints instead of magic) and a combat system that was ahead of it's time (an early realtime with pause system].

Ultima Underworld pretty much have all the features one would expect from a more modern dungeon crawled, well thought out maps, strong puzzles etc. The controls havent aged all that well.
The Darksun games also have most features I would expect in a more recent RPG. IMHO they play very similar to what a turn based Baldurs Gate would have been like.

A lot of people swear by Betrayal at Krondor, but I never got into that game. It does seem to have a lot of depth for it's age though.

Funnily enough most of these party based titles have far better combat than Fallout and Arcanum had much later, which is one reason why I was so perplexed by the dreadful combat of these more modern titles:p

EDIT: I'm not that nostalgic for the pre-BG days, of the mentioned games I'd say only Ultima Underworld and the Darksun games can compete with 2000s titles in terms of roleplaying depth...

[DeepO]

I'm considering "Albion" or one of the "Realms of Arkania" games. Or maybe "Anvil of Dawn" (but I've played a bit of this one years back). I've never really played the Gold Box games either. So any ideas? What old "hardcore" CRPG do you think is so great, that even today it could capture a gamer solely by its gameplay?

As far as top down 2-D RPGs go, Albion is a great one - a lot of exploration, interesting settings, characters, occasional puzzles, solid character development and quite good combat (well, at least if you don´t use potions in it, eh). Unfortunately it also contains use of 3-D in outdoor city areas IIRC and some dungeons. I think that this aspect was rather hard to swallow even at the release time - it´s way too confusing and not really well functional. Personally, I´ve got used to it after a while, but the game would be definitely better without 3-D altogether. I think the game is abandonware by now so maybe give it a try and see how much detracting these 3-D environments will feel to you.
Other than that, Albion is an expansive and rather unique cRPG and I had overall a great time playing it about 7 years ago.

As for Realms of Arkania, it has ridiculously detailed character development system, a very good implementation of strategic turn based combat, well laid-out dungeons and plays in a very open ended environment, well, at least the first two do.
If you want to try just one of the trilogy, I´d probably recommend the second part, Star Trail, which provides the most full blown RoA experience party management-wise and has most interesting dungeons of the three. Managing the overland traveling in Star Trail is quite a chore, but it´s also quite an unique one at that, so I think that today it may be fresh to experience something like that.
After the whole afternoon spent on party creating you may as well be hooked for good.

I´ve played Anvil of Dawn for a while, but it hasn´t really pulled me in so I rather won´t comment on it.

To the previously mentioned Eye of the Beholder series I´d like to add that the second one is by far the best of the trilogy and provides the most varied and creative dungeon crawling experience of the three.

I also support the System Shock rec - with higher resolution and newly available mouselook, two of the main potential obstacles are gone and game´s other aspects like design, story and atmosphere are simply timeless in their quality.

Besides other already mentioned titles, I´d also recommend Wizardry 7. Other than modern audiovisuals, the game has just about everything you could wish for in an oldschool cRPG - complex character development, tactical turn-based combat with a lot of varied challenges, huge open ended gameworld, intricate dungeons, all kinds of puzzles, competing parties of adventurers, interesting setting, easy to get to controls.
Well, thinking about it, I´d recommend Wizardry 8 as well - it may not be really oldschool audiovisually, but it definitely provides a very oldschool experience gameplay-wise. Overall, not as "hardcore" as its predecessor but still very different to what we´re used to nowadays. With Wizardry 8 you´ll get relatively modern UI and visuals with great audio to boot, but at its heart it´s a pure oldie - open ended, quest compass-less, with superb character development, a lot of exciting combat scenarios and memorable atmosphere.

[JemyM]

I have played pen and paper RPG's since I was 8. Going computers was a natural step, however, most of the early CRPG's couldn't capture the RPG feel, only RPG mechanics.

Ultima I was the first CRPG I owned. I never finished it because I didn't know what to do, but I grinded up to 9999 in all stats and 255 in all equipment and found myself "done".

I later bought Pool of Radiance but didn't understand it (too young, and I didn't knew English).

One odd one for this thread was Wonder Boy 3: The Dragon's Trap that was one of my first favorite games. I didn't understand why back then, but WB3 actually have a lot of RPG mechanics in it. You update swords, armor and shields, you increase your status by collecting diamonds (which act as leveling). It always keeps going back to a central hub and you gain special abilities which gives you access to new areas etc. This can be like unlocking new animal forms that gives you abilities like Swim or Flight, or items like lavaprotecting armor. I find the game to be one of the best looking games of the 8BIT era and perhaps the only one beyond Last Ninja I enjoy replaying once in awhile.

The Eye of the Beholder series was the first real RPG I finished and I loved the 2nd one in particular. One of the few RPG's beyond that was Realmz and Exile III, both played on Macintosh. However, most of the 90'ies I didn't play CRPG's. Sticking with Amiga for long was perhaps the major reason why I didn't. I had a brief encounter with Diablo with a friend but that was it. Amiga had a couple of RPG's but I never really got myself into any of them. I guess one could mention UFO: The Unknown.

When all boils down to it I guess you can say it was Baldur's Gate that set things off. I even bought a PC to be able to play it. In many ways, Baldur's Gate was the first game that emphasised playing a CHARACTER your way, just in a RPG. A long with Baldur's Gate I engaged in the Fallout series, and I guess from that moment on I have played most RPG's released, even going back playing some that I missed (including System Shock). Some I enjoyed the most was the Might & Magic series, the 6th and 7th in particular.

[Gokyabgu]

Might&Magic series, Wizardry series, Wizards&Warriors like party based first person view turn based RPGs.
Fallout 1-2, Arcanum, Pool Of Radiance 2, Temple Of Elemental Evil style isometric turn based RPGs.

I hope one day there will be a Might&Magic 10, Wizardry 9, Wizards&Warriors 2, Arcanum 2, ToEE 2 and Pool Of Radiance 3. Same old school RPGs. But, mine is a vain hope. :(

[azraelck]

Wizardry 6, 7
Might and Magic II-VII
Ultima 4-7
Any of the gold box games, Pool of Radiance, Champions of Krynn, etc...

Those are the games with clean enough visuals and interfaces that they really aren't hard to go back these days and play. Yes, it'll be "clunky" compared to Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age, but then back in those days not everyone even had a mouse!

[chamr]

While not an "old classic CRPG" in terms of release date, it is in just about every other way: Eschalon.

[EvilManagedCare]

Another vote for the Realms of Arkania series. However, I am a proponent of starting from the first and playing through with the same party through all 3 installments. Yes, it's a lot of gameplay, but Star Trail is much better imo when you have your party from Blade of Destiny. This game to me is what a PnP game should feel like on a PC. Mind you, I never played DSA, but it (the PC games) just had a PnP feel to it.

If you really want to go retro and can handle the graphics and PC beeping, my very favorite CRPG is the Magic Candle. But that's going back to like 1985. Some games really just don't stand up so well when you go too far.

[Zaleukos]

I had to start a new party in Star Trail as the import function was broken, giving all party members weird baby faces. I wonder if the GOG version has fixed that problem?

[Dasale]

…
What old "hardcore" CRPG do you think is so great, that even today it could capture a gamer solely by its gameplay?
….

Ultima Underworld and Dungeon Master. Both are dungeon games but Ultima Underworld is also a more classical RPG with plenty dialogs.

For UW, don't get stopped by graphics, with some persistence you get used to the very low definition. The possible blocking point are fights controls, if controls are great for exploration, for the fights they are too hard to master.

For Dungeon Master, the graphics are more symbolic but you can enter in the mood. The typical dungeon game and no dialogs, but amazing puzzling, good exploration and nice mood, nice interactivity, and excellent fights. About fights don't get wrong by appearance, they seem too simple but dig them as a real action game and they become great. For fights be imaginative, use items, use the maze, and more.

The block point that could even stop you try it, is that there's no automap. For many levels you can explore them with almost no mapping and not be lost. If you need some map, try alternate exploration phases and map phases. Another possibility is just play the game with maps already in hand that you could get from some sites.

EDIT: To run them both the best way is probably to use DosBox.

[KasperFauerby]

Thanks for a lot of good suggestions! I've already played the UW games, the M&M games, Eschalon, Ultima, EoB and many other - but it's interesting to see how so many recommend especially the Goldbox series and the Wizardry games. It seems like the ROA series "divides the waters" a bit more. I'm still tempted by the pure challenge of those games though :)

For some reason I *really* dislike Wizardry 8. I've tried, but I simply can't get into that game. It just seems so empty, and the combat is simply too slow and too frequent for me. From what I've seen Wiz 7 is somewhat different though, so it might be something.

[JDR13]

A lot of people swear by Betrayal at Krondor, but I never got into that game. It does seem to have a lot of depth for it's age though.

+1

I've tried to play it twice now, but just couldn't get into it at all, despite the story. The graphics are so low-res that I couldn't even tell what I was looking at half the time. I would love to see some kind of modern upgrade to that game.

[Zaleukos]

It seems like the ROA series "divides the waters" a bit more. I'm still tempted by the pure challenge of those games though :)

How one views ROA probably depends on how much stomach one has for an interface that is among the worst of the games mentioned, a ruleset with a lot of skills that you probably wont use and one or two obscure ones that you will need ONCE, and a gameplay that is very hardcore with weapons breaking, thethanus, and other lovely stuff that requires a lot of attention. IF you can put up with those issues the games are great.

+1

I've tried to play it twice now, but just couldn't get into it at all, despite the story. The graphics are so low-res that I couldn't even tell what I was looking at half the time. I would love to see some kind of modern upgrade to that game.

Early 3D ages horribly:D

I sort of figured out how to play it (I only acquired the game in the 2000s after Sierra made it freeware), but got annoyed with how the party members are swapped out between chapters. I can put up with a somewhat clunky interface, but when a game with a mildly annoying UI also decides to waste my character building I call it quits:p

[Alrik Fassbauer]

As for Realms of Arkania, it has ridiculously detailed character development system, a very good implementation of strategic turn based combat, well laid-out dungeons and plays in a very open ended environment, well, at least the first two do.
If you want to try just one of the trilogy, I´d probably recommend the second part, Star Trail, which provides the most full blown RoA experience party management-wise and has most interesting dungeons of the three. Managing the overland traveling in Star Trail is quite a chore, but it´s also quite an unique one at that, so I think that today it may be fresh to experience something like that.
After the whole afternoon spent on party creating you may as well be hooked for good.

Playing this would give you a glimpse into the world of Aventuria, and as a kind of bonus into an earlier edition of the underlying Pen & Paper system of Drakensang.

The only drawback of this is that so many things have changed now - especially concerning the /pen & peper) rules system. The 4th edition of the rules set has almost nothing to do anymore with the older system you can find in the Realms Of Arcania ... Plus, the ROA system was "tweaked" a little bit to satisfy the tastes of american/international gamers. For example, I heard that the overall amount of experience points in the international version of the series is slightly higher - rather like in (A)D&D than in the origginal TDE system, where experience points are usually and normally relatively sparse. Until the 4th edition, of course. Which changed almost everything - of the underlying rules.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

How one views ROA probably depends on how much stomach one has for an interface that is among the worst of the games mentioned, a ruleset with a lot of skills that you probably wont use and one or two obscure ones that you will need ONCE, and a gameplay that is very hardcore with weapons breaking, thethanus, and other lovely stuff that requires a lot of attention. IF you can put up with those issues the games are great.

Some of the fans (like me) actually like that amount of micromanagement (Mass Effect and THAT micromanagement ? :lol: ) and find the possibility of weapons to bear very realistic :) - at least far more realistic than in games without. :lol: ;)

The interface is something you need to become used to - like the interface of Pegasus Mail - but once you are used to it, it works just fine, imho. :)

On the other hand I always had my problems with the circle-menu of NWN1 …
It works, of course, but requires an insanely steady hand … which I normally don't have (and no, I don't drink alcohol, it's just within/inside of me).


And yes - Albion's setting is kind of unique. ;)

Which reminds me of the rarety of Felines in RPGs ... the Lands of Lore series, maybe, but apart from that ?

[rune_74]

Hmmm for felines almost every single Jrpg.

Ambermoon I have tried to get into a few times….maybe will try again.

All the realms of arkania…are good.

Eschalon…is great, even had an awesome beta tester in the credits;)

[txa1265]

+1

I've tried to play it twice now, but just couldn't get into it at all, despite the story. The graphics are so low-res that I couldn't even tell what I was looking at half the time. I would love to see some kind of modern upgrade to that game.

Interesting that you can do System Shock but not this ... I honestly wonder if it is a nostalgia thing as I think they have aged about the same ...

[JDR13]

Interesting that you can do System Shock but not this … I honestly wonder if it is a nostalgia thing as I think they have aged about the same …

Not at all really, System Shock has been patched to run at resolutions up to 1280x1024, and still looks surprisingly good for an old DOS game.

As popular as BaK was, I'm surprised nobody has updated it in a similar manner.

[DArtagnan]

Why don't we all just make our own little company dedicated to remaking past games ;)

I can do 2D UI art, a bit of C#, and genius-level game mechanics :cool:

:p

[Alrik Fassbauer]

You forget the genius-level philosophy behind that. :p :lol:

[DArtagnan]

You forget the genius-level philosophy behind that. :p :lol:

My philosophy is beyond genius-level, obviously ;)

[LuckyCarbon]

How one views ROA probably depends on how much stomach one has for an interface that is among the worst of the games mentioned, a ruleset with a lot of skills that you probably wont use and one or two obscure ones that you will need ONCE, and a gameplay that is very hardcore with weapons breaking, thethanus, and other lovely stuff that requires a lot of attention. IF you can put up with those issues the games are great.

Yes, this. I love the concept and feel of the RoA games but the interface was just so clunky. I don't think they haven't aged well technically either, if I recall correctly I tried getting Star Trail up in dosbox once and had major sound & mouse issues.

I sort of figured out how to play it (I only acquired the game in the 2000s after Sierra made it freeware), but got annoyed with how the party members are swapped out between chapters. I can put up with a somewhat clunky interface, but when a game with a mildly annoying UI also decides to waste my character building I call it quits:p

Annoying UI? I've always thought BAK's interface is why it's aged so well, it was way ahead of the curve. Very visual, auto-sorting, drag and drop, right click for more info inventory was so simple and intuitive. It's drives me nuts how few games since have handled it as well. Very few.

I also don't get people complaining about BAK's graphics. Yes, they're rudimentary 3d but it's clean and still easy to tell what you're doing. So many low res 2d titles are so dang fuzzy I find those much harder to go back and play.

[LuckyCarbon]

As popular as BaK was, I'm surprised nobody has updated it in a similar manner.

I'm working on it. I'm not sure if I'll ever finish it and I certainly don't have the rights for it so it's going to be completely a fan project.

I've been using Unity3d since that went free to small developers remaking BAK. If you're not familiar with Unity3d (demo (http://unity3d.com/gallery/live-demos/tropical-paradise)) it's perfect for what I'm aiming for and compliments my skills. I'm a heck of a programmer (just ask me) but not much of an artist. Limited progress so far, I'm still working on the chapter 1 terrain in the Unity3d terrain editor. I've been compiling free/cheap BAK looking building models as I don't have much of a budget. My biggest concern right now is finding animated models for combat: humans, armor, swords, etc of acceptable quality.

Any 3d modelers/animators want to work for free on my fan project with nothing to show so far? …….. I didn't think so. ;)

You can play with my first test sample (http://www.luckycarbon.com) that I made just learning the tools if you want. Please don't think it's indicative of the quality I'm aiming for with a BAK remake.

Sorry, this is totally off-topic.

[KasperFauerby]

Well, as it happened I just came across an Ebay auction for a shrink-wrapped big-box copy of Albion! Being a bit of a vintage games collector, and with this discussion in mind, I just couldn't help myself :) That game is quite hard to find!

It wasn't cheap - but at least I now know which oldie to start with. It'll probably be a week or so until it arrives here in Denmark though.

I might also eventually try out the GoG version of the ROA games... at $7 for the first two you can't really go wrong. I was tempted to get the CD-version for Star Trail instead (digitized speech, and supposedly slightly better gfx?), but that would cost me a fair bit more on Ebay.

[JDR13]

I never knew much about Albion, but after looking at some YouTube footage just now, I have to say I'm a bit interested in learning more. The mix of sci-fi and fantasy is what really caught my eye. I notice that it's officially considered abandonware, I might have to give it a try when I have time.



@LuckyCarbon - I'd be happy with a simple resolution upgrade to the original BaK. That looks like a pretty cool project though…

[Zaleukos]

Annoying UI? I've always thought BAK's interface is why it's aged so well, it was way ahead of the curve. Very visual, auto-sorting, drag and drop, right click for more info inventory was so simple and intuitive. It's drives me nuts how few games since have handled it as well. Very few.

It's a very long time since I played the game, but IIRC it was mainly the combat "interface" that bugged me.

[Thrasher]

I haven't played 50% of the games discussed above, but I have play the GB Pool of Radiance series and Wizardry 8. I have to say I had just about the most fun outside of Planescape with these. You have to really like turned based combat though (which I do)! :)

[KazikluBey]

Early 3D ages horribly:D
Didn't stop me from enjoying the first time in the first half of the 00's, though when I tried to replay it a few years ago I came to the conclusion that the "investment" (not just in time, but in getting used to the graphics and such) didn't feel like it was worth it, for a second run-through. A first play-through comes highly recommended, however. I haven't played anything like it (then again, I haven't played Betrayal at Antara or Return to Krondor yet).

I sort of figured out how to play it (I only acquired the game in the 2000s after Sierra made it freeware), but got annoyed with how the party members are swapped out between chapters. I can put up with a somewhat clunky interface, but when a game with a mildly annoying UI also decides to waste my character building I call it quits:p
Keep in mind that you get most of those party members back in a later chapter just as you left them, they're not just gone forever until the closing chapters.

Also, I'd agree with LC about the interface actually. Everything except the skill focuses seemed largely intuitive to me, without a manual.

I must admit I found the BaK Help Web (http://notendur.hi.is/eybjorn/krondor/krondor.html) was useful at times though. ;)

[txa1265]

Not at all really, System Shock has been patched to run at resolutions up to 1280x1024, and still looks surprisingly good for an old DOS game.

OK ... just asking as I always considered myself as 'graphics whore' and kept ahead of the curve because of that ... but in the last couple of years have realized I have a very high tolerance for older game graphics. My last play on SS was in DOSBox on a Mac with no resolution enhancer, and from that perspective it has aged about in line for a game of that era.

So does that mean that without a high-res patch you wouldn't consider SS worth playing anymore?

[Zaleukos]

Keep in mind that you get most of those party members back in a later chapter just as you left them, they're not just gone forever until the closing chapters.

I know that, but it still felt tedious to have to build up a new lockpicker, or to to lose a guy you just spent money on kitting out for a few chapters.

[Nukester]

Magic Candle would be a good choice for an early-Ultima-ish game. I loved it

[azraelck]

I had forgotten all about Magic Candle. I had I and III, still got 1. But I lost 3 due to bad disks. I need to replay it myself now.

[Korplem]

Kasper: I mentioned a few years ago that I haven't forgotten about Peroxide. Now, I may have forgotten what the name of the game was, but I remember being impressed! I expect a press release sometime within the next, oh, I don't know... ten years. Does that sound reasonable? :D

[bjon045]

Gold boxes games would be my pick. The entire forgotten realms series is excellent, as are the first 2 of the krynn games (dark queen is a bit of a let down). Ultima 7 and 7 part 2 are unmissable as well. I laugh at anyone who hasn't finished Wizardry 6, it is just that good.

[KasperFauerby]

Kasper: I mentioned a few years ago that I haven't forgotten about Peroxide. Now, I may have forgotten what the name of the game was, but I remember being impressed! I expect a press release sometime within the next, oh, I don't know… ten years. Does that sound reasonable? :D

He heh! Well, we've learned from our past mistakes, PR-wise. We went public with our Ultima 1 remake waaay too early, which gave a lot of people too high expectations. But maybe, just maybe, we're still cooking on something ;) If we are, I'm sure you guys will be among the first to know...

[GhanBuriGhan]

I'm working on it. I'm not sure if I'll ever finish it and I certainly don't have the rights for it so it's going to be completely a fan project.

I've been using Unity3d since that went free to small developers remaking BAK. If you're not familiar with Unity3d (demo (http://unity3d.com/gallery/live-demos/tropical-paradise)) it's perfect for what I'm aiming for and compliments my skills. I'm a heck of a programmer (just ask me) but not much of an artist. Limited progress so far, I'm still working on the chapter 1 terrain in the Unity3d terrain editor. I've been compiling free/cheap BAK looking building models as I don't have much of a budget. My biggest concern right now is finding animated models for combat: humans, armor, swords, etc of acceptable quality.

Any 3d modelers/animators want to work for free on my fan project with nothing to show so far? …….. I didn't think so. ;)

You can play with my first test sample (http://www.luckycarbon.com) that I made just learning the tools if you want. Please don't think it's indicative of the quality I'm aiming for with a BAK remake.

Sorry, this is totally off-topic.

Very cool, I really hope you succeed! I saw a number of art packs are available for the torque engine, including animation, and they seem affordable: http://www.torquepowered.com/products/browse/artpacks
I have no clue if it is possible to use them with other engines, but I thought I'd throw that out there, just in case...

[KasperFauerby]

I've been using Unity3d since that went free to small developers remaking BAK. If you're not familiar with Unity3d (demo (http://unity3d.com/gallery/live-demos/tropical-paradise)) it's perfect for what I'm aiming for and compliments my skills. I'm a heck of a programmer (just ask me) but not much of an artist.

Cool! I'm curious how you came to work with the Unity engine. I know some of these guys - they operate here from Copenhagen :)

[DArtagnan]

For my own project, I stay away from 3D modeling - because I know I can't do something that looks good. I consider bad 3D graphics much MUCH worse than "functional" 2D graphics - so that's what I'm going for.

But it's a challenge to develop a game all by yourself, I must say ;)

[GhanBuriGhan]

Good grief. Everyone is a developer with a secret game project 'round here, it seems ;) You guys keep on rocking!

[Gorath]

For some reason I *really* dislike Wizardry 8. I've tried, but I simply can't get into that game. It just seems so empty, and the combat is simply too slow and too frequent for me. From what I've seen Wiz 7 is somewhat different though, so it might be something.

Same for me. I only tried Wizardry 7, and hated it. Two steps forward - random encounter. Repeat. That's not for me. If I want a combat simulator I play a TBS.

Betrayal at Krondor would be a good choice, but let's be honest: The early 3D graphics are unbearable nowadays.

Maybe try one of the earlier Might & Magics. The M&M 3 - 5 series was good. Sort of 2D sandbox games. Gigantic map, something to do everywhere, and more than a lot of everything.

[JDR13]

Same for me. I only tried Wizardry 7, and hated it. Two steps forward - random encounter. Repeat. That's not for me. If I want a combat simulator I play a TBS..


Gorath - Wiz 8 did away with the random encounters, you can see all your enemies, and avoid them if you want. There's also a patch that vastly increases the speed of the combat if you find it too slow. It's a very different game from previous titles in the series.

The combat in Wiz 8 isn't dramatically different from the later M&M games actually, just a bit more complex.

[LuckyCarbon]

Very cool, I really hope you succeed! I saw a number of art packs are available for the torque engine, including animation, and they seem affordable: http://www.torquepowered.com/products/browse/artpacks
I have no clue if it is possible to use them with other engines, but I thought I'd throw that out there, just in case…

Those look like they might be great but it looks like they're in a proprietary torque format. I'll have to read up to see if there's a way to convert those to a format Unity supports.

Cool! I'm curious how you came to work with the Unity engine. I know some of these guys - they operate here from Copenhagen :)

I've done flash game development and have even experimented with flash 3d ( it sucks ) and working with Ogre3d for a while too, then the other day I was reading an article on ArsTechnica about Interstellar Marines (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/01/interstellar-marines-trite-name-crowd-sourced-budget.ars), read about the Unity Engine, loved the concept, started playing with it, I was very impressed. I think the future of gaming, especially indie gaming, is in a distributed web platform and Unity fills that niche perfectly. It allows a small development team a distribution platform without having to find a publisher or having users download and install their application, users can try it online for free, instantly, and get a feel for it.

For my own project, I stay away from 3D modeling - because I know I can't do something that looks good. I consider bad 3D graphics much MUCH worse than "functional" 2D graphics - so that's what I'm going for.

I agree but I'm not any better at making 2d art than I am 3d, either way it's going to look bad or I'm paying for it.

But it's a challenge to develop a game all by yourself, I must say ;)

Don't I know it. That's a lot of the reason I chose BAK this time (my other serious option was JA2), simple rules, simple dialog, story already written and the Unity engine is very good for the terrain I need to create. BAK's tavern, shop and city hot spot scenes are going to be a lot easier to duplicate than most game's city environments.

I'm only planning on creating chapter 1 right now, see how much work that is and how well it's received.

[azraelck]

For my own project, I stay away from 3D modeling - because I know I can't do something that looks good. I consider bad 3D graphics much MUCH worse than "functional" 2D graphics - so that's what I'm going for.

But it's a challenge to develop a game all by yourself, I must say ;)

What do you go for when you can't do either bad 3D or functional 2D? :P That's the boat I'm in, and why I'm focusing in entirely on the game mechanics and such first; graphics come way later, when I can draw better stick figures.

[DArtagnan]

What do you go for when you can't do either bad 3D or functional 2D? :P That's the boat I'm in, and why I'm focusing in entirely on the game mechanics and such first; graphics come way later, when I can draw better stick figures.

Well, if you get something done you can show around or demonstrate - art can come relatively cheap or even free. So it's a good approach.

But you can learn such skills and I started out without any knowledge many years ago. But I got comfortable with Photoshop and now I can do decent stuff within my limits.

[Coldcall]

Since this thread appears populated by upcoming games developers i was wondering if someone could help me with a rather dumb question:

Are there any game engines which are adaptable/flexible enough to allow combining a space sim and surface TPS engine as well? Or would you need two different engines, one for space and one for surface operations?

One more question: how big a development/art team (approx) is required to produce a commercial grade game within a 2 year period? I heard Bioware only had 10 guys working DAO which i find sort of surprisingly small.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

As a side-question : How good are Amiga emulators nowadays ? How good compared to the original Amiga ?

[Arhu]

Which original Amiga? ;) From what I can tell, it's pretty darn good.

Ambermoon discussion (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9872) moved to its own thread.

[azraelck]

Since this thread appears populated by upcoming games developers i was wondering if someone could help me with a rather dumb question: There are no dumb questions save those never asked.

Are there any game engines which are adaptable/flexible enough to allow combining a space sim and surface TPS engine as well? Or would you need two different engines, one for space and one for surface operations?
I'm building a totally custom engine. So I have no idea.

One more question: how big a development/art team (approx) is required to produce a commercial grade game within a 2 year period? I heard Bioware only had 10 guys working DAO which i find sort of surprisingly small.

This depends on what you are doing. If you are using an existing engine, then 10 people might be able to pull it in under two years, assuming a few things. Remember that Bioware does this day in day out, and likely adapted an existing engine for DA:O as well.

However, 2 years may be optimistic with having to build a full engine, test and test it some more, all the graphics, sound, etc... It's why I have no set timeline. I expect that I can *possibly* have the core mechanics done in 6 months. After that comes sound and graphics engines. Then the editor. then on and on and on.

Well, if you get something done you can show around or demonstrate - art can come relatively cheap or even free. So it's a good approach.

But you can learn such skills and I started out without any knowledge many years ago. But I got comfortable with Photoshop and now I can do decent stuff within my limits.

I'm probably being a bit prideful in this, but I don't want *free* anything. Most likely I'll be buying art once I have an engine to put it in, just to ensure a high enough quality for what I want. I am trying to get the skill to do as much myself as possible though.

The only thing I'll want volunteers for is beta testing, further on up the road. At that time, I'll know I'd never be able to fully test it by myself. Heck, balance testing the mechanics (which I am doing via PnP play) is almost beyond me.

[DArtagnan]

As a side-question : How good are Amiga emulators nowadays ? How good compared to the original Amiga ?

WinUAE is still the best AFAIK.

You'll need Amiga ROMS - but they're easy to find.

It's almost 100% compatible these days - but generally, the more dedicated hardware is used in the game - the harder it is to emulate. The Amiga hardware had quite a bit of weird stuff dedicated primarily to arcade games - so some of those are bound to be a bit glitchy.

But for RPGs - the tricks used are simpler, and as such I'd bet 99% of RPGs are fully compatible with the latest UAE. But, you need to mess around with Kickstart ROMS and other things, because they were written for different configurations back then.

[Benedict]

I'm considering "Albion" or one of the "Realms of Arkania" games. Or maybe "Anvil of Dawn" (but I've played a bit of this one years back). I've never really played the Gold Box games either. :)

Albion blates, a great game IMO.

[azraelck]

You might try The Summoning, Veil of Darkness, or Dusk of the Gods as well. All three share the same engine; an isometric real time system.

The Summoning is a straight fantasy game, with decent combat and puzzles. The main issue is there is a bit of backtracking, so the game feels empty for the most part. Magic power also regens very slowly, so spells are relegated to secondary use for the most part.

Veil of Darkness is a horror-themed game light on RPG elements. It's pretty plot-focused, with puzzles and exploration being more the key than straight combat.

I have Dusk of the Gods, but I haven't played it much. It's a Norse-themed game.

[JDR13]

Albion blates, a great game IMO.


I downloaded it from Abandonia over the weekend. I've only played it till the first dungeon in the Iskai city, but I could see how this game would have been awesome when it was released

I love the overall atmosphere, especially how it changes from the Toronto to Albion. I also like the transistion from the 2D areas to the 3D ones, it adds an extra element of variety. I probably won't attempt a full playthrough due to lack of time, but I sure wish I hadn't missed it back in 95'.

[txa1265]

I downloaded it from Abandonia over the weekend. I've only played it till the first dungeon in the Iskai city, but I could see how this game would have been awesome when it was released

I love the overall atmosphere, especially how it changes from the Toronto to Albion. I also like the transistion from the 2D areas to the 3D ones, it adds an extra element of variety. I probably won't attempt a full playthrough due to lack of time, but I sure wish I hadn't missed it back in 95'.

I also brought it back out (DOSBox on Mac) based on some of these comments ... another one I would love to play through at some point, but it is tough with all the new games ...

[bkrueger]

I downloaded it from Abandonia over the weekend. I've only played it till the first dungeon in the Iskai city, but I could see how this game would have been awesome when it was released

I love the overall atmosphere, especially how it changes from the Toronto to Albion. I also like the transistion from the 2D areas to the 3D ones, it adds an extra element of variety. I probably won't attempt a full playthrough due to lack of time, but I sure wish I hadn't missed it back in 95'.

Your phrase "due to lack of time" is interesting: I assume you have a limited amount of time you can reserve for playing, which is true for most of us. But within this given limit, what prevents you from from using it for playing a game, which seems to impress you more than some many new ones? As far as I can see there is no obligation to play as many new games as possible...:)

Just a thought...

[azraelck]

A more efficient way would be to develop some kind of time-stopping device, which would, theoretically, give him infinite time to play, while leaving time for sleep and other such nonsense. ;)

[JDR13]

Your phrase "due to lack of time" is interesting: I assume you have a limited amount of time you can reserve for playing, which is true for most of us. But within this given limit, what prevents you from from using it for playing a game, which seems to impress you more than some many new ones? As far as I can see there is no obligation to play as many new games as possible…:)

I have a decent amount of free time for gaming… the problem is that I have around a dozen titles lined up already... even more when you factor in my games for the PS3 and Wii.

[bkrueger]

I have a decent amount of free time for gaming… the problem is that I have around a dozen titles lined up already… even more when you factor in my games for the PS3 and Wii.
What is the punishment if you skip some of these?

[JDR13]

What is the punishment if you skip some of these?


I fear they may be insulted and become angry with me. ;)

[bkrueger]

I fear they may be insulted and become angry with me. ;)
Don't underestimate how angry and insulted these old games can be! >:O

(Ok, enough of this :spam: .)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

WinUAE is still the best AFAIK.

Thanks. :)

I asked because I still have a few Amiga magazines diskettes. ;)
And one game called "Fatman". ;)
Although I once found a PC port of it on an Abandonware site.
I remember this Amiga game was literally "thrown away" at a computer fair, long, long, long ago … Could have been 1996 or so.
Also, Indy Jones games are cheaper for Amiga on ebay than for the PC … :lol:

[azraelck]

I fear they may be insulted and become angry with me. ;)

Believe me, I have lots of insulted games on my desk. I just toss magazines on them until they smother. If they get persnickety, I have my big book of World War II photographs, which weighs in about 26 lbs, to whack them with. Nothing like a Sherman tank to shut something up. ;)

My list has grown incredibly huge. I have three old Genesis RPGs I want to play, Wizardry 8 again, I still haven't pulled my Sorc from my recent BG1 run into BG2; IWD1 and 2, Gothic 1 and 2, King's bounty to finish, and to top it off Mega Man 10 and Sonic 4 are coming out soon. Now Albion (never played it before, probably because back in those days I was strictly fantasy, never touched sci-fi), and I'd love to find Magic Candle III again. My disks demagnetized. :'-(

[JDR13]

I have three old Genesis RPGs I want to play,

I'm curious, which ones? I completed just about every RPG that was ever released for that system.

[azraelck]

The Shining Force games. You're the one who told me they were released in the PS3 Genesis collection. :P Technically, I also have PS2 and 3, since the last time I tried them, it was on a GBA, and the screen was way beyond too small for such games. PSIV I went though a couple years ago, but I could stand a go again. Then I feel a run in World of Xeen coming...

[Relayer]

The Shining Force series was awesome. Sega should revisit it.

[azraelck]

Not unless they can do it right, they shouldn't. And they've not gotten Sonic right in a long time on a home console. The GBA games were decent enough, but no where near the level of S3&K.

When/if they make a worthy sequel to S3&K, then maybe they can start thinking of something complicated and challenging like an RPG. Sorry, been burned too many times by SEGA's latest to really wish them to screw up a good old franchise.

[Korplem]

He heh! Well, we've learned from our past mistakes, PR-wise. We went public with our Ultima 1 remake waaay too early, which gave a lot of people too high expectations. But maybe, just maybe, we're still cooking on something ;) If we are, I'm sure you guys will be among the first to know…

Well, that's relieving. I actually thought that you just quietly gave up. Your project showed a lot of promise back in, what, 2002?

[JDR13]

Shining Force was *great*, one of the top 10 games ever made for the Genesis imo. I didn't really care for Shining Force 2 though, the story and characters just didn't grab me the same way.

They made several Shining Force games for the PS2, but they were nothing like SF 1-3.

[azraelck]

Sequels rarely grab one the same way as the first. I don't know why though. There are some exceptions though.

[KasperFauerby]

Thanks. :)

I asked because I still have a few Amiga magazines diskettes. ;)
And one game called "Fatman". ;)
Also, Indy Jones games are cheaper for Amiga on ebay than for the PC … :lol:

But AFAIK you can't read amiga diskettes with a PC drive.. you I think you are going to need a real amiga and a transfer cable to get stuff onto your PC and emulator.

[KasperFauerby]

Well, that's relieving. I actually thought that you just quietly gave up. Your project showed a lot of promise back in, what, 2002?

Well - we're *not* working on an Ultima 1 remake, if that's what you mean :) But yeah, it's been a while. 2002 sounds about right for when we released our final tech demo on that project.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I have three old Genesis RPGs I want to play,

One for Mike Rutherford, one for Phil Collins and one for Tony Banks ? ;)

But AFAIK you can't read amiga diskettes with a PC drive.. you I think you are going to need a real amiga and a transfer cable to get stuff onto your PC and emulator.

Okay, thanks.

Didn't know that. What a pity.

[Korplem]

Well - we're *not* working on an Ultima 1 remake, if that's what you mean :) But yeah, it's been a while. 2002 sounds about right for when we released our final tech demo on that project.

No, I meant your project in general. I can't seem to recall the name after you dropped the Ultima remake quest...

I was a regular forumite at your site. That and the Dot/Watch are the only forums I've ever really taken part of...

[KasperFauerby]

Sorry for resurrecting an ancient thread, but it seemed appropriate to continue the discussion from where it left off :)

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier in the thread I decided to play Albion. And well… it hooked me enough to play all the way through it - but I must say that it was a bit of an uneven ride. Some parts were really great while other were borderline boring. If anyone is curious about the details I'll be happy to provide them but otherwise I think I'll just save myself the time of writing down all my impressions :)
In short I think my final verdict will be something like: if you like the idea of exploring a unique and interesting world, and if you don't require a complex a battle/character system, then Albion might be worth your time. It's a very long journey though and some parts will probably be a little frustrating.

Now - with that one out of the way (and about half a year and some modern titles to digest it) I'm ready for round two :)

This time I've bough RoA3: Shadow over Riva. I guess I'll be in for a very different experience this time around. I do have some questions that I hope you guys can help me with though:


I've read that the game gets MUCH easier when you import a party from previous games. I'm not sure I want to play the previous titles though.. so would you say it's still reasoably possible to play the game with a new party?
Do you have any tips for building a balanced party for this game? Maybe even specific suggestions for a party?


I've played Drakensang and I understand the general ideas of the TDE rules (skill/spell checks, combat rolls etc).

Thanks for any suggestions :)

[Maylander]

I played SoR ages ago, quite a fun game, though I don't feel it's on par with MM6 or 7.

I remember having a tough time when starting with a new party, but it's definitely doable with a little reloading. Might want to look into how to build a strong party though.

[skavenhorde]

I passed it with no problems with a new party. IIRC I had some difficulty in the cemetery, but the characters leveled up pretty quickly. Just save a lot :)

ROA has some funky classes. I had to get my book out to remember their names (even though a lot of them made an appearance in Drakensang) I had a magician (always), silvan elf, jester, witch, dwarf, and warrior. When leveling up I increased what they excelled at and did not straying too far into other areas.

I had your basic party of 2 warriors, 1 rogue, 3 magic users/clerics (I believe the witch and elf could use healing powers). I did not use healing powers too often. I used healing plants/potions instead of healing powers and used the 3 magic users for either buffs or offensive magic and in the case of the magicianne a summoner.

One of the best spells in the beginning of the game is lightning. It blinds your opponent for a certain amount of rounds. Plus always surround your enemy. They are very difficult to hit if you attack one on one. Their PV (parry value) is either reduced or is gone completely if he gets attacked more than once. You will miss a lot if you don't surround your enemies.

Have fun with this classic. The combat is very different than other rpgs and takes some getting used to, but once you do get used to it it's a great game.

[KasperFauerby]

Just finished setting it all up in DosBox etc. It runs perfectly, and by creating a cue/bin from the CD instead of an iso I even got it working with CD audio. So that's all fine!

Messed around a bit with the game, just using the standard party - and holy crap, there are *a lot* of features and buttons in this game and its UI! No wonder the manual is a (by today) hefty 65 pages. Seems like I'll have to read it - just like in the old days. Excellent! :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The REalms Of Arcania games were adapted a tiny bit to the international market.

And yes - TDE is the only rule set/ setting - I know of - having a Jester as a playable class !

With TDE4, the classes are all gone, and they are replaced by a culture/profession combination. What you see in Drakensang is just the "aarchetypes", no classes, just pre-defined culture/professions combinations, nothing more.


And be warned ! You can level up several spells which are not used at all within the game ! - And you can level up spells which a magician isn't able to use, because of the wrong "magic school" or so (oh, my, it's long ago since I played it ... ) ...

[Maylander]

Jester is also a subclass of the Bard in 2nd edition D&D, which means you can play one as a class in Baldur's Gate 2.

Edit: And the original Baldur's Gate if you upgrade it with EasyTuTu.

[KasperFauerby]

With TDE4, the classes are all gone, and they are replaced by a culture/profession combination. What you see in Drakensang is just the "aarchetypes", no classes, just pre-defined culture/professions combinations, nothing more.

And be warned ! You can level up several spells which are not used at all within the game ! - And you can level up spells which a magician isn't able to use, because of the wrong "magic school" or so (oh, my, it's long ago since I played it … ) …

Yeah, I can see now that Drakensang definitely isn't the full story about the TDE ruleset :) Seems like you have to roll for stat/skill updates each level, have a long list of negative character stats etc. None of that was in DraSa :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Drakensang is 4th edition, Realms Of Arcania is 3rd edition, there are heavy differences in some parts, whereas some core checks remain the same.

The negative character stats are still in the 4th edition - but no more obligatory, and most people use them during character generation to get more points for generation. Which leads to mighty warriors with only one leg, one hand, looking ugly, being gold-greedy, and being socially incompatible with the rest of the world - but he or she is still one of the very best warriors of the whole continent ! - To use an often-cited cliché about the use of negative stats in the 4th edition as a mere source of generation-points. ;)