Gothic 3 - Jowood releases sales figures

[Garrett]

Jowood has released (http://www.jowood.com/investor/docs/20061124%20Newsletter_6_DE.pdf) the Gothic 3 sales figures: The title has sold over 350.000 copies so far, not including the the US figures.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=3269)

[Thaurin]

That looks like a respectable figure, although it's obviously not a hit. It should be enough for them to not sink into the red, though, right?

[Gorath]

I wonder why JoWooD makes a big deal out of these numbers *now*. They were released 3 weeks ago in their investor newsletter. I´ve added them to our wiki early this month.

350k worldwide excl. North America and Russia are very good sales for an RPG. Especially if it´s not a multi-platform title.

[Wulf]

Yet obviously, the methodology of rectifying the various release problems would increase these figures?

[Pfandpirat]

When compared with the Gothic 2 sales this is a big hit. Gothic 2 took a year to sell 250.000 copies or so.

[Elwro]

If they're still a small team e.g. compared to Bethesda, this might be a great result. But I'm not sure if they still are.
I wonder how big a group of potential customers did they lose by the system requirements.

[Corwin]

Let me make one small point about system requirements. Some of you might remember a little game developer called Origin!! It used to make a series called Ultima!! One of the things they always did with each release, was push the envelope; if you didn't have the best and latest system, you couldn't run the game!! How is this really any different? Back then, every Ultima release meant upgrading my system!! Hello!!!! Stop whining and spend a little to enhance your hobby. Good grief, in the US you complain about spending $50 for a game. Here it's usually closer to $100 and sometimes more!! Take a reality check!!

[Pladio]

Yes and in Kenya it might only cost 1$, but the people don't earn as much.

[Acleacius]

I’m with Gorath on this seems suspicious, G3 should/could have sold more in just Germany.
I certainly am not knocking PB’s work, I wonder if they have released the figures on how long G2 took to make that would be the key really Gothic series must easily pay for itself, but the problem is JoWood not PB or Gothic.
Why isn't JoWood making better backup plans, asking for free help (i.e. from fans) it's very clear G3 should have been a star.

Are we wrong to think G3 should have done better?
To me it's more of credit deserved by PB than us putting unreal expectations on PB.
PB seems to be having to work too hard, not because they choose to work as a small team this seems more from (at least this time) from setting unrealistic goals if a exceptional team of 19 needs 3, 4 or 5 full years to put out a exceptional title why aren't plans being made by JoWood to deal with this, instead of rushing it out early.

It's quite possible JoWood is trying to claim victory over there bad decisions and trying once again to move on to the next game without properly fixing G3, more poor decisions and planning?
I think so, atm.
As Wulf says of course fixing the game would go a long way which is very confusing, since it seems like they defiantly sending signals.
Are going trying to move on without G3?

The real paradox seems to be, did they need all the extra graphics enhancements if they weren't trying to compete, yet all the extra work on graphics must have cost them at least a year or more in Dev time.
So obviously they must have been trying to compete, maybe was an early decision instead of trying incrementally graphic upgrades it could have seemed better to make a full jump now/then.
Either way it’s the graphic improvements that cost all the performance, since with the G2 engine PB certainly wouldn’t have had all these technical problems even with this massive non-level loading world.
And maybe that’s the kicker they can’t get it to work properly, like the hair.

Edit Spelling, of course.

[txa1265]

I spoke with Aspyr, and they said that since they're privately held they don't disclose numbers, but are quite pleased with the sales numbers the game is doing in North America.

They also say that they're generally pleased with the response they have gotten - a few sites are (they think) unfairly harsh while others seem unrealistically positive, but most are pretty fair - and they realize and acknowledge the problems with the game. They went on to say how much they like working with the Jowood & PB team, and how they are fans of the game as well and see PB doing loads of work to make the game all it can be.

[crpgnut]

I'm not a huge fan of Gothic but it's a crpg, so I want it to succeed. I think these are very good figures for the game. Once you add in the rest of the world, Gothic 3 should be fairly profitable for Jowood/PB/Aspyr.

[doctor_kaz]

I'd be surprised if the game breaks 100,000 sales in all of North America. Very surprised. It's getting no hype, publicity, or coverage at all.

[txa1265]

I'd be surprised if the game breaks 100,000 sales in all of North America. Very surprised. It's getting no hype, publicity, or coverage at all.

Considering Bloodlines did ~75,000 ... I'd say 100k is a pretty nice number if they can do it.

[Moriendor]

Why isn't JoWood making better backup plans, asking for free help (i.e. from fans) it's very clear G3 should have been a star.

This is actually something they are doing already. Several selected WoG mods/admins get to beta test the Gothic III patches before the patches are released to the public.
Regarding the performance problems, they (PB) have admitted to sloppy coding. The engine is not optimized and full of undocumented/unused/unnecessary remnants from all the extensive testing they did when they tried to squeeze the entire world into system memory in one piece. Or to put it more simply: The engine just plain sucks.

[TheMadGamer]

Let me make one small point about system requirements. Some of you might remember a little game developer called Origin!! It used to make a series called Ultima!! One of the things they always did with each release, was push the envelope; if you didn't have the best and latest system, you couldn't run the game!! How is this really any different? Back then, every Ultima release meant upgrading my system!! Hello!!!! Stop whining and spend a little to enhance your hobby. Good grief, in the US you complain about spending $50 for a game. Here it's usually closer to $100 and sometimes more!! Take a reality check!!

LOL. I used to tell myself it was just 'coincidence' that I bought or substantially upgraded my PC with each new Ultima.

I'm with you Corwin. But I think the effects of marketing PCs as a household appliance has left the mindset of our generation behind as it relates to computers.

Today's mindset is, 'I should be able to put in the disk, hit a button or two, and it all just works.' When that doesn't happen, many of today's computer users, who most mostly use computers for internet and email, get lost. And forget the idea of upgrading components.

It's just a totally different mentality. I'm sure you know all this but it's still worth saying.

[the_oracles_cave]

the thing is though, you at the gothic game and you wonder where all those demands are coming from? my computer runs oblivion superbly with high settings and it looks gorgeous. the gothic demo would only run once i knocked everything down substantially, which made it look like a 3 year old game. i plainly don't need to upgrade, my PC is more than capable of running new games. gothic is obviously lazily coded.

[Decado]

Um...350,000 is a lot for a PC title (particularly since they aren't counting US figures, though it probably wouldn't add much more than 100k).

Considering all the bugs and other issues surrounding the title, it did extremely well.

Hopefully this will encourage the developer to keep their promises and support the title and community with patches (of which it seems to need a lot of). I'd like to get the game eventually.

[txa1265]

Um...350,000 is a lot for a PC title (particularly since they aren't counting US figures, though it probably wouldn't add much more than 100k).
Especially considering that the entire sales total for Troika isn't much more than 350,000!

[curious]

anyone who complains about gothic 3 running poorly probably doesn't have 2gigs of ram, and most likely was not around when the original gothic came out which humbled anyone (like myself) who didn't have lots of ram and resulted in load times in excess of 5 minutes. thank adanos for kai rosencranz though whose music made it not so much of a burden.

ram is an acceptable 'bottleneck'! just because most games focus on smaller worlds (or larger uncomplex worlds) with 'fancier' graphics that may require a more powerful graphics card or faster processor doesn't mean its not reasonable, even though rare for some games to need more ram. ram is also usually the cheapest to so people really need to chill.

i know i've expressed some of these opinions before but i was triggered by the use of "lazily" towards developers/artists that i respect like no other.

[lostnumber]

This is pure speculation, but wouldn't a high degree of market saturation at this point potentially harm future sales? G3 severely underperformed when considered against its expectations. I would venture a guess here and say that quite a few casual fans and curious other fellows would be turned off of the Gothic series after playing G3. Essentially what I am saying is that G3 is a very poor representation of the Gothic series. Those who were attracted to the series by prior iterations may be turned away by this version. I would guess that G3's sales volume was driven not by its own merit but by its predecessor’s. The way I see it, unless a lot of work is put into developing the game and perhaps enhancing it with additional content this success may actually have the potential to cause harm.

[Cabezone]

Imagine how many they could have sold if the game code wasn't a steaming pile of diarrhea.

[XYZ]

They are just 19 "Piranhas" and cosidering the big world of gothic 3 they arent that lazy! You have to consider that Germany is a rich market and they sell there a lot by default. France+Germany(and satellites like Austria Swiss etc)+Italy+Spain+UK isn't a small market for a PC game too. They are in USA to expand their market but their selling base is in UE.

[Dez]

one of the best rules with pcs is: "Extra ram never hurts" I have 2 gig now, but i will add extra two gig on next spring.

[GothicGothicness]

every Ultima release meant upgrading my system!!

Remmember what happend to the Ultima series?

No more parallel like that please.

[Corwin]

The Ultima series is considered by many to be the best 'rpg' series ever made, though most of us discount 8 and try to pretend that 9 never happened!! :)

[Gorath]

This is pure speculation, but wouldn't a high degree of market saturation at this point potentially harm future sales? G3 severely underperformed when considered against its expectations. I would venture a guess here and say that quite a few casual fans and curious other fellows would be turned off of the Gothic series after playing G3. Essentially what I am saying is that G3 is a very poor representation of the Gothic series. Those who were attracted to the series by prior iterations may be turned away by this version. I would guess that G3's sales volume was driven not by its own merit but by its predecessor’s. The way I see it, unless a lot of work is put into developing the game and perhaps enhancing it with additional content this success may actually have the potential to cause harm.
I also think so. The apparently rather low priority they give to patches can harm the ongoing sales of Gothic 3. This and the product quality perceived as disappointing by a lot of customers will probably harm the add-on´s sales figures. They have one chance to repair the brand with the add-on if it´s as good as NotR and nearly bug-free. If they blow it Gothic 4 will be an uphill battle.

[Corwin]

Gorath, as someone with an inside track to PB, what are you hearing from them?

[Gorath]

I´m not in contact with PB at the moment.

[ToddMcF2002]

Just for perspective - Oblivion sold ~400K console and ~200K PC units in the first month of release. Who knows where those numbers are now.

I think reviews are taking a toll. If the game was less buggy and ran smoother there might be more hype. Who knows.

[RatavuK]

Let's hope for PB that all these people will also buy G4.

[Corwin]

Let's hope there is a G4 and that it has an English language release!!

[RatavuK]

Let's hope there is a G4 and that it has an English language release!!

That depends on the american sales. But i think that G3 did sell reasonably well in the UK, so there is hope Corwin.

I hope PB aren't too frustrated about their product and start doing shooters instead.

[Lethal Weapon]

One thing the Gothic series always lacked was a flexible toolset. One can replay the game only so many times and with the lack of a multiplayer option the only thing that can prolong a game's life is mods.

[Arma]

Let's hope there is a G4 and that it has an English language release!!

Wondering why I got a knack in my head that PB had said Gothic would be a thrilogy?

[Maylander]

G3 was the number 1 game in Norway right after its release, and it was in several other countries using the English version as well, so I'd be very surprised if G4 did not have English voices as well as the German ones.

[Dhruin]

Wondering why I got a knack in my head that PB had said Gothic would be a thrilogy?

Yep, I remember that. Of course, money talks so that could change.

[RatavuK]

Yeah money talks. But i hope PB will do a game they want to make because it's their inner wish and not because they know exactly that they can do a lot of cash with it.
But i think i'm too idealist in this case.

[XYZ]

One thing the Gothic series always lacked was a flexible toolset. One can replay the game only so many times and with the lack of a multiplayer option the only thing that can prolong a game's life is mods.


They said that a toolset for Gothic 3 will be released in 2007 but modding for Gothic 3 will never be easy. They should use the expansion release in 2007 to optimize the whole Gothic 3 experience just like they have with NotR.

[doctor_kaz]

I have seen on at least a few occasions that Gothic was always intended to be a trilogy.

[curious]

well the ultimas were broken down into trilogies as well, which there were 3 of. gothic 3's story has wrapped up most everything that occured in the trilogy. so now if they do make a 4 it would be a far diffrent storyline. think of xardas as lord british and the nameless hero as the avatar. gothic has always found much inspiration from the ultimas, which is a great thing, and at least part of the reason why i enjoy the games so much. i wonder if richard garriot has played the gothic games...

[Corwin]

Now that is an interesting question, but I have no idea how we could get an answer to it!!

[Gorath]

Mike wrote in the long Q&A at WoG shortly after release that a possible Gothic 4 would be a prequel or another story in the Gothic universe.