Dragon Age - Review @ GameBanshee

[Dhruin]

GameBanshee has whipped up their opinion on Dragon Age (http://www.gamebanshee.com/reviews/96948-dragon-age-origins.html). The NPCs are praised but the "dull" plot and "boring" combat are clear negatives, with the author ultimately concluding he only "moderately" enjoyed it:
The plotting overall isn’t noteworthy. Not that I mind a series of clichés; most entertainment or art starts with that. It’s how you expand upon it that matters, and the development in DA:O is standard formula. I never came away with the feeling, as I did in BG2 or Ultima VII, of being a pawn successfully moved about in a much, much larger game, or disrupting a very carefully laid and complex plan, as in BG1, or discovering that everything I knew was wrong, as in Planescape: Torment. I gathered a party to punish a highly-placed, powerful traitor, then dealt with a still more powerful army of invaders. On the other hand, dialog between your party members and yourself is superlative for content, structure, immediate mannerisms, and the gradual unfolding of character traits you’d expect from successive pieces of dialog as your party comes to “know” you.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=14452)

[Tuco]

I can't really agree. BG1 and BG2 weren't anywhere close to Ultima VII and probably overall worse than Dragon Age, if we talk about plot.

[JDR13]

I can't really agree. BG1 and BG2 weren't anywhere close to Ultima VII and probably overall worse than Dragon Age, if we talk about plot.

I thought the BG games were better as well.

[Thrasher]

I give the review an 80%. I agree with the emphasis he put on the positives, I think he left out some important negatives, and wrote about other negatives that I didn't think were worth mentioning.

[Brother None]

Did you...did you just review the review?

[Thrasher]

LOL! Yes, I think all reviews should be reviewed. :p Just want to be even handed. :)

Other sites truly have atrocious reviews (GB not included, BTW) and I am rating those too.

Why? Over the years I have become more and more disgusted with the degeneration of gaming "journalism". I think it needs some quality feedback and control. Not that my opinion will make any difference, but it makes me feel better. ;)

[BillSeurer]

When boiled down…
BG1 plot: You start as a schmuck, get tougher, and then kill your brother the foozle.
BG2 plot: You don't start as a schmuck, get tougher, and then kill a foozle who's not your brother.

DA:O is basically the same. In fact 99.44% of RPGs are the same.

[rune_74]

Funny over the years I have become more disgusted with forum posters, and fake people with agendas....but hey thats just me.

[Thrasher]

Are you accusing me of being fake with an agenda? If so you don't know me, and I would suspect that you are defensive because I somehow insulted you.

[rune_74]

Nah, not you...it was just a generalization...so many people are wonky in threads deciding what is or isn't an rpg etc etc etc...its my current nit pick of rpg fans in general.

[JDR13]

When boiled down…
BG1 plot: You start as a schmuck, get tougher, and then kill your brother the foozle.
BG2 plot: You don't start as a schmuck, get tougher, and then kill a foozle who's not your brother.

Foozles?

I can agree that Sarevok wasn't much more than a generic foozle, but Jon Irenicus was an *excellent* villain, and much deeper than the usual cliche RPG antagonist.

[purpleblob]

I agree with JDR13. Irenicus is one of the best villan I've ever encountered.

[Corwin]

You know BN, I'd love to see a site review reviews!! :) To be honest, your site and this are the only ones whose reviews I actually bother to read anymore because I know I can trust you guys at GB and the folk here. When VD manages to write something, I respect his views as well, just not the place he often posts them!! :D

[Dhruin]

Irenicus didn't do much for me, but I realise I'm in the minority with that opinion.

As to the review, I think the plot and combat criticisms aren't unfounded but are too harsh for my taste. I thoroughly enjoyed the story and, in the main, the combat. I would have preferred the balance of adventuring to combat be more even and there are quite a few minor criticisms (not enough enemy variations, for example) but "boring" is over the top for me.

[Tragos]

I agree with many of the points the review raised , specially those about combat .
I didn't like this part : "Granted, linearity is necessary" ...ehm what?

Plot wise minions start popping from the earth while PC has also to fight corruption is a very cliché scenario and i didn't find any interesting twists and turns either.

[Arkadia7]

Amazing, a review from a major role playing games web site that doesn't drool over Dragon Age and proclaim it "the best rpg ever!"
How refreshing.

The combat is better than I think the reviewer gives it credit for, but he is right on target when they talk about the combat tactics slots. This was a ridiculous system, that you have to earn the right to control your own party member tactics in the game. This is the first reviewer I have seen that picked up on it.

Some of the other complaints seem to be a little superficial and petty (who cares if the architecture clashes or if the food on a table appears plentiful with a tiny cooking area?!), but overall an interesting review that I tend to agree with in terms of Dragon Age being "not all that". I think it was a pretty good rpg, but not even close to classic rpgs when looked at in totality.

[Dhruin]

Plot wise minions start popping from the earth while PC has also to fight corruption is a very cliché scenario and i didn't find any interesting twists and turns either.

Really? None?

Didn't find any of the Origins interesting? Nothing of interest in the death of Duncan and the King? Didn't find the situation in Redcliffe castle slightly interesting? Not The Fade? No curiosity about Sten's background in Lothering? No surprise about the link between the elves and werewolves? Didn't want to discover the truth about Morrigan vs Flemeth?

[Lemonhead]

I think the sheer amount of combat was what made it boring in the end. The formula of battling through x amount of rooms with minions before getting to the super duper boss just gets old for me. Wouldn't it have been better if the combat made more sense? Like: hold this hallway against the storming Darkspawn or sneak into the enemy camp at night and kill the general / sabotage the siege engines. Ok I'm just brainstorming here but I think you understand what I mean.

[holeraw]

Irenicus didn't do much for me, but I realise I'm in the minority with that opinion.
Well... I'm still waiting for someone to share my opinion that Irenicus was in fact one of the worst villains I've seen in an RPG - He keeps claiming that he could effortlessly kill me but him refusing to take the -apparently insignificant- time to do so even after I've proven to be a threat again and again and it's obvious that I'm not going to stop, makes him very unsatisfying to deal with - I mean, telling me that he's extremely powerful and then having him teleporting away a few times after I beat him and having me hunt him down like a dog for the entire game is debunking.


---
Good review though... + it's good to see that someone finally mentions being bothered by the in-game marketing as much as I have in a review!

[JDR13]

Well… I'm still waiting for someone to share my opinion that Irenicus was in fact one of the worst villains I've seen in an RPG

You'll be waiting for a long time.

[Tragos]

Really? None?

Didn't find any of the Origins interesting? Nothing of interest in the death of Duncan and the King? Didn't find the situation in Redcliffe castle slightly interesting? Not The Fade? No curiosity about Sten's background in Lothering? No surprise about the link between the elves and werewolves? Didn't want to discover the truth about Morrigan vs Flemeth?

Most of those wasn't part of the main plot and i didn't say that party members didn't had interesting backgrounds

[Dhruin]

All bar two them are part of the critical quest line - you must do them; that makes them part of the main plot, no?

Anyway, so some of the major sub-plots and characters are interesting? That's not how it sounded, hence my reply.

[Tragos]

All bar two them are part of the critical quest line - you must do them; that makes them part of the main plot, no?

Anyway, so some of the major sub-plots and characters are interesting? That's not how it sounded, hence my reply.

Still (almost) everything was very predictable and cliché. , nothing really surprising, not real twist and turn . Also most of the characters were very "clean" , maybe too clearly "good or evil" to be human .
The parts you mention are critical because you have to follow the long boring story instead of killing someone at the spot and solve everything.
Luckily for Rogue characters max invisibility means that you can leave your party behind and proceed skipping the long meaningless battles :)

I am not saying that the story sucks , it isn't bad at all nor i was "hopping for something better" because i wasn't following development / hype ; what i am saying is that i have seen such things before and story overall could have been more innovative (like for example : there is no good or evil , you are forced to take sides while knowing that both are wrong) and exciting (having to kill one or more of the party members for example) and stop giving a fair resolution for everything .

[holeraw]

Still (almost) everything was very predictable and cliché. , (like for example : there is no good or evil , you are forced to take sides while knowing that both are wrong)
But that's still in there: The dwarven kings, the Elves vs. Werewolves, even Loghain seems to have at least a fair motive at the beginning (what with Cailan being an idiot with suicidal tendencies) despite him going loopy eventually.

Of course you don't get to choose between one murdering lunatic and another murdering lunatic but I don't think it's fair to say that this game only has pitch black vs. bright white choices.

---

Also... why should it? I don't really see what is it with gray being so appealing to people. I'd think that a pure good vs. pure evil story would be as good as any if it was interesting enough. Why is moral ambiguity considered such an absolute advantage.

[dagoo7]

Nah, not you…it was just a generalization…so many people are wonky in threads deciding what is or isn't an rpg etc etc etc…its my current nit pick of rpg fans in general.

I have to say, I am getting a bit frustrated with people complaining against anyone who looks to even attempt to evaluate or categorize a game. Honest and open-minded people are free to discuss their opinions and express arguments without being accused of being "elitist" or "having an agenda." I am not saying there are any of those out there, but a good number of reasonable, open-minded, non-confrontational others who have been characterized as such unfairly every time they post.

Its not fair to try and shut down discussion or dismiss other arguments and viewpoints, because someone feels that there is no real, acceptable definition of an rpg or because people might characterize them differently. We can and should be able to have a reasonable and open discussion without namecalling simply because somebody says something critical about a game someone likes or postive about a game someone dislikes or expresses a point someone doesn't like.

[Brother None]

I would have preferred the balance of adventuring to combat be more even and there are quite a few minor criticisms (not enough enemy variations, for example) but "boring" is over the top for me.

Same, to some extent, but I think you'll agree with me, in that you can't really say his point of view is an invalid one, even if it is over the top. It's pretty easy to see someone get bored out of their skull with all the filler combat. Hell, first time I played the game I just quit somewhere in the Deep Roads, fed up with the filler combat.

You know BN, I'd love to see a site review reviews!! :) To be honest, your site and this are the only ones whose reviews I actually bother to read anymore because I know I can trust you guys at GB and the folk here. When VD manages to write something, I respect his views as well, just not the place he often posts them!! :D

There's others out there usually worth reading from my point of view, but it's good to have a selection of sites you know you can trust. Not ones you'll always agree with, but once who at least put effort and critical thought into reviews.

And yeah, a review-reviewing site might by this point become a necessity. Poor gaming media.

even Loghain seems to have at least a fair motive at the beginning (what with Cailan being an idiot with suicidal tendencies) despite him going loopy eventually.

I really loved Loghain's design and voice acting. It's too bad he kind of tapered out at the end and his motivations were never expanded upon beyond paranoia. That's a real shame, since he's really the game's antagonist (screw the Arch Demon, I never get to talk to him…it), and could potentially have been one of the best of all time. I still think he's pretty solid, tho'.

[BillSeurer]

I really loved Loghain's design and voice acting. It's too bad he kind of tapered out at the end and his motivations were never expanded upon beyond paranoia. That's a real shame, since he's really the game's antagonist (screw the Arch Demon, I never get to talk to him…it), and could potentially have been one of the best of all time. I still think he's pretty solid, tho'.

That's one spot where the plot really fell down. At the end I kept expecting some big revelation about why Loghain did what he had done but then he was gone and I was still left puzzled.

And as for the Irenicus thing, yeah, I thought he was pretty lame too as a foozle though not as bad as Sarevok. He has all these chances to take care of you when you are weak (in comparison to him) but, no, the best he can do is kidnap your sister and send you bad dreams. He's the classic villain who REALLY needs to read the evil overlord manual.

[Michael Dean]

Nearly all RPGs will have the "right a perceived wrong" plotline. I think the story of the power-hungry traitor/usurper was the strongest point in this particular plot, and it was well-written. The story of the darkspawn invasion was serviceable, if not particularly interesting.
In reality, history repeats itself century after century, therefore it's the nuances that make history so interesting, especially those nuances that are the pebbles that lead to culture shifts. I think that RPGs have found that, yes, they are by nature going to be repetetive in terms of overall plot, and that these nuances (backstories, side-stories, environments, objects, interactions, etc.) are what need to be developed strongly in order to set them apart from their peers.
Dragon Age has certainly done well to continue to advance the genre from this perspective.
No, there's not much that's going to shock anyone in terms of design, and I'm not saying there aren't plenty of negatives to be observed in this game, but there were some nice strides forward in DA:O in terms of RPG development.

[DeepO]

He has all these chances to take care of you when you are weak (in comparison to him) but, no, the best he can do is kidnap your sister and send you bad dreams. He's the classic villain who REALLY needs to read the evil overlord manual.

He needs to extract your soul, killing you early would be contraproductive.
He´s a very good villain in concept and thanks to voice acting, unfortunately the whole morality angle was left underdeveloped. I´ve always liked Bodhi more.
He´s seriously badass with SCS2 though.

As for the review, in parts I agree, in parts I don´t.
The review itself feels very, uh, disproportioned contentually. With the exception of character system, most of it is devoted to nitpickery, leaving the factoids on a side trail.

[BillSeurer]

He needs to extract your soul, killing you early would be contraproductive.
He´s a very good villain in concept and thanks to voice acting, unfortunately the whole morality angle was left underdeveloped. I´ve always liked Bodhi more.
He´s seriously badass with SCS2 though.

Right but why doesn't he just capture you again? He managed to before without any trouble and he makes off with Imoen.

[JDR13]

Right but why doesn't he just capture you again?.


I don't know, maybe because it's a videogame? ;)

Seriously, you could nitpick a detail about any villain ever made. For instance, Shodan, who is generally regarded as one of the greatest computer game villains of all time, should have been able to use her resources to kill you at any time in System Shock.

[BillSeurer]

Which brings us back to what we were saying earlier. Even the best video game villains are lame when you really think about them.

[Malk]

I really loved Loghain's design and voice acting. It's too bad he kind of tapered out at the end and his motivations were never expanded upon beyond paranoia.
It's a shame how people are impressed with the actress who voiced Morrigan, and no one's noticing Simon Templeman (aka Kain) who did Loghain. He was definitely the star of the cast for me (no, I'm not gay). What's really annoying about Loghain is that he admits being wrong way too easily. What, I just kicked his ass, I gave him a lesson, and he's all nice and goody again?! That's a bit dumb.
Why is moral ambiguity considered such an absolute advantage.
It's better when you can choose between being good, evil and ''neutral'' than when you can only choose between good and evil.

[Dhruin]

Same, to some extent, but I think you'll agree with me, in that you can't really say his point of view is an invalid one, even if it is over the top. It's pretty easy to see someone get bored out of their skull with all the filler combat. Hell, first time I played the game I just quit somewhere in the Deep Roads, fed up with the filler combat.

He has a perfectly valid point of (I thought I acknowledged that?), I just disagree.

I've seen the Deep Roads complaint a few times. Oddly, I found it one of the most compelling parts of the game. I found some tension in the idea of being deep underground, in the heart of the darkspawn, and I really enjoyed the associated stories (I've gone blank on the name of Oghren's wife).

[Anderson]

I found Loghain very difficult to understand, after reading the prequel novel, in which he was someone who grew to sacrifice everything for his king and kingdom, even the woman he loved (wow that sounded corny). I found the transition to the Dragon Age Loghain extremely jarring. It just didn't make sense to me that the Loghain of the novel would abandon his King and countrymen to die, try to kill off all the Grey Wardens, and turn into such a snarling liar and villan. I would always feel, "That's not Loghain."

Anyone else read the prequel novel and have that reaction?

[DeepO]

What's really annoying about Loghain is that he admits being wrong way too easily. What, I just kicked his ass, I gave him a lesson, and he's all nice and goody again?! That's a bit dumb.

Maybe he had doubts all along and your confrontation with him just opened the hatch :) After he joined the group, his talks were quite interesting.
The main villain of DA are circumstances, which I liked.

[Malk]

That's a good point.
I found Loghain very difficult to understand, after reading the prequel novel, in which he was someone who grew to sacrifice everything for his king and kingdom, even the woman he loved (wow that sounded corny). I found the transition to the Dragon Age Loghain extremely jarring. It just didn't make sense to me that the Loghain of the novel would abandon his King and countrymen to die, try to kill off all the Grey Wardens, and turn into such a snarling liar and villan. I would always feel, "That's not Loghain."

The kingdom is more important than the king? He had respect for Maric, maybe he just didn't like Cailan… And why did he try to kill off all the Wardens?

[Anderson]

The kingdom is more important than the king? He had respect for Maric, maybe he just didn't like Cailan… And why did he try to kill off all the Wardens?

But Maric did a lot of foolhardy things, too, and Loghain always backed him up (in the prequel novel, I mean). Maric would step naively into some trap, and Loghain would ride to his rescue. Here, he turns his back not only on the King, but on half the army he is commanding. That is a level of betrayal that is (imo) completely at odds with his character in the novel. Again, I found it very jarring and hard to reconcile. I could only assume something very bad happened to Loghain between the novel and the game.

As for why he tried to kill off the Wardens, I think he was trying to pin the blame on them for what happened to the King, as a way to dodge responsibility. I might have that wrong, though.

[MasterKromm]

The review, overall, is fairly indicative of DA:O's general gaming experience… Before I take up arms against the one glaring exception(his belief that he was not a pawn from square one) let me say that I found it refreshing to read a relatively objective review.

The plotting overall isn’t noteworthy. Not that I mind a series of clichés; most entertainment or art starts with that. It’s how you expand upon it that matters, and the development in DA:O is standard formula. I never came away with the feeling, as I did in BG2 or Ultima VII, of being a pawn successfully moved about in a much, much larger game, or disrupting a very carefully laid and complex plan, as in BG1, or discovering that everything I knew was wrong, as in Planescape: Torment.

Becoming a gray warden is unavoidable, a necessary bit of linearity to maintain the games continuity. But your "survival" at Ostagar is nothing of the sort… Of course as the hero you have live, but there were other ways you could have survived the tower. However, more telling are those that did not survive. Why did Flemeth not save the King or Duncan? She claims that the blight is a threat to all, if so saving the man with the knowledge to make more gray wardens would have been the logical choice. I'm of the belief that it was all part of her plan to acquire the soul/essence of the old god from the archdemon.

Now the question becomes, had Flemeth already started the ritual to take over Morrigans body before the threesome set off for Lothering(as we learn it seems to take time to "settle in")? It would explain why killing a nearly immortal being was so damn easy, what was killed was nothing more than a vestigial husk - Flemeth's old body. Indeed it's destruction was most likely tangent and meant only to further Morrigan's complacency or perhaps it was a necessary part of the ritual? Then again, let us assume that Morrigan was truly herself. She lets on that killing Flemeth will most likely only be a temporary set back… Which in hindsight, could also be part of Flemeth's plan to take over the body/soul of the old god Morrigan wishes to birth.

Of course with only two grey wardens the hero is definitely tempted to take up Morrigan's offer. Let's face it, who wants to die? Though, for arguments sake, let us assume that the her offer is refused and one of the grey wardens dies… You still find out that a woman matching Morrigan's description is heavy with child. IMO, that can only mean that Morrigan is actually Flemeth and she seeks to continue her perverse existence. Of course there are other remaining old gods for her to try and acquire…

Then again, maybe I've given Bioware too much credit. :P

Another issue I'd like to comment on, one that I found quite annoying, was the lack of reactivity - especially when playing a Blood mage… At a minimum within the party, those who would see you using such abilities, should express their thoughts on the matter if not leave or attack you. Oh and Wynne, why would she even allow herself to learn blood magic?!? Small things can kill RPing/Immersion, for me anyway.

Oh boy, I guess I have more to say on the subject than I thought… I'll just stop for now and say this, I've been a lurker for some time, great site.

[Dhruin]

Nice post, and I tend to agree. We certainly haven't seen the last of either Morrigan or Flemmeth.

[Malk]

Though, for arguments sake, let us assume that the her offer is refused and one of the grey wardens dies… You still find out that a woman matching Morrigan's description is heavy with child.
That's only if The Warden had sex with Morrigan during the game (not necessarily the night before the battle).

I think Flemeth sent Morrigan with Warden so she could get the old god's essence, but then Morrigan decided she wanted the essence for herself, so she made The Warden kill Flemeth.
I could only assume something very bad happened to Loghain between the novel and the game.

Maybe he became power hungry once he felt how it was like to be a general in a non-occupied country. Or was he a general in a novel as well?

[Anderson]

Maybe he became power hungry once he felt how it was like to be a general in a non-occupied country. Or was he a general in a novel as well?

I suppose that's a good explanation. He was promoted to General near the end of the book, if I recall correctly. "Power corrupts."

He was the most heroic figure in the novel. I found myself liking and admiring him more than any of the other characters. So it was very weird to have him be a despicable villain I had to oppose in the game. I don't think I ever got past it. I wonder if I would've enjoyed DA's story more, if I had not read the prequel novel.

[MasterKromm]

That's only if The Warden had sex with Morrigan during the game (not necessarily the night before the battle).

Are you sure? I could have sworn Morrigan ends up prego regardless…

I think Flemeth sent Morrigan with Warden so she could get the old god's essence, but then Morrigan decided she wanted the essence for herself, so she made The Warden kill Flemeth.

I believe that was the case, however I gave it my own spin. Only time will tell, but I hope Bioware implements some sort twist/spin. Your take is too… cut and dry(no offense). :)

[xSamhainx]

He was the most heroic figure in the novel. I found myself liking and admiring him more than any of the other characters. So it was very weird to have him be a despicable villain I had to oppose in the game.

No kidding, Ive thought that was really odd. Loghain is this heroic, dare I say at times noble character in the book. Of all people to make the nemesis!

[Maylander]

Well, he wasn't too noble towards the end of the book..

[Anderson]

Well, he wasn't too noble towards the end of the book..

He wasn't? What happened? I don't recall. I admit I sort of blew through that book, like I do most novels based on games. Guess I missed something.

[Malk]

Are you sure? I could have sworn Morrigan ends up prego regardless…

Pretty sure.
I believe that was the case, however I gave it my own spin. Only time will tell, but I hope Bioware implements some sort twist/spin. Your take is too… cut and dry(no offense). :)
None taken, but I think it's the most likely outcome.. There'll definitely be a twist regarding Morrigan and Flemeth, and I'm positive Duncan is alive (you never see him actually die and you don't find his body in Ostagar.. it's also strange how no one wants to bury him, I think he's more important to Alistair than the king was).

[MasterKromm]

Pretty sure.

I only played the game once but I still wanted to know how the endings differed. I can't seem to find the forum where the endings were listed, but IIRC Morrigan's was the only ending that could not be affected in any way whatsoever. Even if she does not have sex with the hero or Alistair she is still pregnant. It's a dead giveaway that she/Flemeth will play some future role in a later title.

Sorry, I often take to tangential discussion…

I could not romance lelaina(SP?) for one simple reason. RPing a mage who had grown up in the tower, most likely with minimal intimate female interaction(IIRC the apprentices live in a giant room filled with bunk beds) left me little desire to "settle" for a career whore(if you take the time to talk to her or listen to her intermittent random ramblings it becomes obvious that on the slut Richter scale she's at least an 8 - remember the Richter scale is logarithmic :P). Thus for me anyway, dating the Apostate/Maleficarum was the only real meaningful RP choice when playing a mage. So my question, did anyone romance Lelaina? If so, what was your take?

None taken, but I think it's the most likely outcome.. There'll definitely be a twist regarding Morrigan and Flemeth, and I'm positive Duncan is alive (you never see him actually die and you don't find his body in Ostagar.. it's also strange how no one wants to bury him, I think he's more important to Alistair than the king was).

This was supposed to dark fantasy… Morrigan's betrayal at the end was the only thing remotely "dark" well you could also argue Alistair sacrificing himself(as if I would sacrifice myself :-/).

I think you're partially right about Duncan, my only hope is that he's been taken hostage or better yet in a cruel twist of bitter irony somehow converted/turned into a bad arse dark spawn general.

-EDIT-

Oh and for the record I was one of those people who, despite enjoying DA:O, voted it most disappointing game of 09… I might expound on why in a separate thread.

[Brother None]

I've seen the Deep Roads complaint a few times. Oddly, I found it one of the most compelling parts of the game. I found some tension in the idea of being deep underground, in the heart of the darkspawn, and I really enjoyed the associated stories (I've gone blank on the name of Oghren's wife).

Oh almost missed this post somehow. Yes, I agree, the storylines there are great, from Shale's history to Paragon Branka's tale (though that's not particularly strong) to the secret you uncover there and the choice offered to you (one of the stronger ones of Dragon Age: Origins).

It's just that the actual gameplay is all filler combat. It's not as bad the entire Urn quest, which is just an orgy of filler combat, but it's bad. I really think DA:O would have been much better with more focused, challenging fights, and not all this filler.

[Malk]

I only played the game once but I still wanted to know how the endings differed. I can't seem to find the forum where the endings were listed, but IIRC Morrigan's was the only ending that could not be affected in any way whatsoever. Even if she does not have sex with the hero or Alistair she is still pregnant.

It says here (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Epilogue):

Morrigan leaves the party the night before the final battle when the Warden refuses her offer. She is later seen traveling through the Frostback Mountains alone. Several years later, tales out of Orlais said that a strange dark-haired mage had insinuated herself within the empress's court .(Male PC must not engage in romance with Morrigan for this to trigger).

Other epilogues are also interesting, spent half an hour reading yesterday..
So my question, did anyone romance Lelaina? If so, what was your take?
I did. It was nice at first, but then she got an idea that we were in a serious relationship, she started acting all creepy (even sang me an opera), so I had to break up. I tried hitting on Morrigan after that, but that didn't work out well 'cause ''we're just friends.''

I need a hug.

[MasterKromm]

It says here (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Epilogue):

Morrigan leaves the party the night before the final battle when the Warden refuses her offer. She is later seen traveling through the Frostback Mountains alone. Several years later, tales out of Orlais said that a strange dark-haired mage had insinuated herself within the empress's court .(Male PC must not engage in romance with Morrigan for this to trigger).

Other epilogues are also interesting, spent half an hour reading yesterday..

I did. It was nice at first, but then she got an idea that we were in a serious relationship, she started acting all creepy (even sang me an opera), so I had to break up. I tried hitting on Morrigan after that, but that didn't work out well 'cause ''we're just friends.''

I need a hug.

Thanks! I hadn't seen that as I played DA:O some time ago… Oh well there goes my theory. :-/

She sang you an opera?!? If there has ever been a better reason to break up with a chick I have yet to see it...

[Brother None]

She sang you an opera?!? If there has ever been a better reason to break up with a chick I have yet to see it…

I thought she always sang this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSh86CNCgDY) after visiting the Elves? You might need a positive opinion for it, I guess.

Also note that song is one of quite a few big misses in Dragon Age's soundtrack, and one of the reasons DA:O was kept from best music/sound in our GotY awards (the terrible female voice acting for many major roles was another), and the presentation of the song just makes it worse. These moments when Dragon Age was just painfully trying too hard are such a big mark against the game's story.

[Malk]

I think that moment was actually the worst.. It's either that or when everyone start shouting ''FOR FERELDEN!!!'' at battle for Ostagar. Makes me wanna puke.

[Anderson]

She sang me that song, and I didn't romance her. I guess I'm a sap, but I kind of liked it. No one ever sang me a song in an RPG before.

[DeepO]

I considered the song a nice touch and liked it for the idea itself.
The execution and the song itself … not so much.
The song in Mass Effect 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWJcwmjM8mE&feature=related), on the other hand, was implemented flawlessly imo.

[MasterKromm]

I thought she always sang this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSh86CNCgDY) after visiting the Elves? You might need a positive opinion for it, I guess.

I'm fairly certain I did not get that song, but I sided with the werewolves(absolutely loathed the Dalish; too Tolkienesque with respect to their superior age, grace, beauty, sense of naturism *yawn* ect yet what's worse they were somehow "quickened" by their introduction to humanity. Their constant use of the victim card didn't help either - Lanaya*SP?* asking if humans regret what they did to the elves really annoyed me.) and my approval with her at the time was right around 0. So maybe you're right about approval/opinion playing a role?

@ DeepO,

I agree, Mordin's song and it's implementation were great.

[Dasale]

…Irenicus…
- He keeps claiming that he could effortlessly kill me but him refusing to take the -apparently insignificant- time to do so even after I've proven to be a threat again and again and it's obvious that I'm not going to stop, makes him very unsatisfying to deal with - I mean, telling me that he's extremely powerful and then having him teleporting away a few times after I beat him and having me hunt him down like a dog for the entire game is debunking.

You explain very well why BG2 story is totally ridiculous for me, thanks to save me the effort. :)

I'd like add that the BG2 effort to picture horror are totally failed and felt into ridiculous increasing more the negative picture of the whole story.

[Dasale]

I considered the song a nice touch and liked it for the idea itself.
The execution and the song itself … not so much...
Well put, but not fully, one point is very badly done this is the mouth synchronization. But other stuff is quite well done, the song, the singing, the scenery, the companions reaction.

If the realization was so bad it could not have an effect and obviously it had an effect on some people, like me.

The idea itself is hardly enough in this case to generate an effect and the mouth synchronization is a detail that myself I look at as a localization problem. It's like spelling mistakes in a text, some people can go ever it and enjoy the text and some other can't.

enough to have a strong effect on those that can go over

[Dasale]

...
He was the most heroic figure in the novel. I found myself liking and admiring him more than any of the other characters. So it was very weird to have him be a despicable villain I had to oppose in the game. I don't think I ever got past it. I wonder if I would've enjoyed DA's story more, if I had not read the prequel novel.
Interesting, a hero that becomes a villain, my memory seems vanish a little and I can't remember novel series using the trick. I remember some with a secondary hero falling in corruption or something, but not up to make him the villain.

There's two points here, the first is the series point of view, it's a quite stupid writing to keep unexplained such a dramatic evolution.

The second point is that I don't mean that everything need to be explained and if fact the reverse is true for a good series. But for such a key element this require a lot of cautious and development. If it's something that will not be explained and will in the future then for such important element the story needs highlight it.

DAO does it but that's quite minimal and relatively hidden, in few words, not well done. The introduction of DLC RTO is a good example of what should have been done and wasn't in DAO. In DAO you know from few dialogs that he was THE hero, that he has changed a lot, but that's all, all the game concentrate on making him an unpleasant weird character ready to everything probably for power, when it should have been quite more subtle with such good base.

[MasterKromm]

I haven't read any of the DA:O published literature. However, from my in game experience I came away feeling as though his actions were understandable. They jive with someone who is intensely paranoid(as a real life example look at the guy who crashed a plane into the IRS - many never knew that an all consuming anti-tax anti-big government side of him existed). Also worth noting, I got the distinct impression that Howe manipulated Loghain - after all preying on his intense paranoia would have been easy.

Though I could be wrong. I sort of liked Loghain as a villain, I grow tired of the stereotypical bad guys. They're always less of a threat than the man/woman who is fueled by misguided intentions and conviction(think Spanish inquisition, Crusades ect).

[Malk]

Though I could be wrong. I sort of liked Loghain as a villain, I grow tired of the stereotypical bad guys. They're always less of a threat than the man/woman who is fueled by misguided intentions and conviction(think Spanish inquisition, Crusades ect).
I don't agree, they're both dangerous since they're fueled by their convictions, but the misguided one can eventually realize he's wrong.
Well put, but not fully, one point is very badly done this is the mouth synchronization. But other stuff is quite well done, the song, the singing, the scenery, the companions reaction.

What ruined it for me is the fact that you can clearly hear instruments in the background, yet there's no one playing.. Also, the voice which is singing is obviously not Leliana's. Her movements and position I didn't like, maybe it would work if she was standing on a cliff watching the sunset (or something like that). When you're singing next to a fire in the woods, you should play acoustic hippy country folk whatever songs. It was a bit of a surreal moment, but it wasn't shown like that which spoiled it for me. So it's just not the mouth synchronization, I didn't even notice that.

[xSamhainx]

..neverminding the fact that the Crusades were in large part a response to the Muslim conquest of a great deal of the Christian world at the time.

But yeah, Leilana breaking out in song at the campfire was quite an awkward event. I ended up taking my own defensive actions and shutting it down, 'twas too much for me.

[Anderson]

Interesting, a hero that becomes a villain, my memory seems vanish a little and I can't remember novel series using the trick. I remember some with a secondary hero falling in corruption or something, but not up to make him the villain.

There's two points here, the first is the series point of view, it's a quite stupid writing to keep unexplained such a dramatic evolution.

The second point is that I don't mean that everything need to be explained and if fact the reverse is true for a good series. But for such a key element this require a lot of cautious and development. If it's something that will not be explained and will in the future then for such important element the story needs highlight it.


I believe there was a second Dragon Age novel issued, prior to the game's release. Perhaps that was also a prequel novel, and Loghain's transformation was explained in there? I only read The Stolen Throne (?) myself, so I can't say.

[Thrasher]

Definitely the animation is the most awkward moment of the game. Even worse than the sex scenes. I liked the song though.

[Brother None]

But yeah, Leilana breaking out in song at the campfire was quite an awkward event. I ended up taking my own defensive actions and shutting it down, 'twas too much for me.

I laughed my ass off to be honest. It was far from the only moment when Dragon Age made me laugh out loud, really. Whenever it just...well...tried too hard, I couldn't help but laugh. It would've been a lot better toned down. No, not dropping the epic tone completely, just telling the epic story in a less overly bombastic way.

[xSamhainx]

I still have yet to read the second Dragon Age book, "The Calling", so maybe something happens to Loghain there to make him aggro.

The Leilana campfire ballad was probably one of the biggest wtf moments Ive ever had in game, I literally facepalmed while hitting ESC. I think Anderson had a pretty funny post about it a while ago when we were talking about it -

lol, I kinda liked that, partly because it was unexpected, and partly just because I like the woman's voice. The singer, I mean, not Leliana. Leliana was clearly lip-synching.

I found it sort of soothing, or at least pleasant. I probably would've been embarrassed, had I been watching in front of others, but it was just me and my dog. Nice thing about dogs, you know — you can do just about anything around them, and you're never embarrassed.

[Maylander]

As to what Loghain did towards the end of the first novel:
He forced Marik to kill his beloved, despite the fact that she had turned around and was actually siding with him at that point. He was leaning more and more towards the "everything for Ferelden, no matter the cost!" that you see in the game. He wasn't the villain; he honestly thought he did what was right for Ferelden, and paid no attention to the cost.

[Anderson]

You're right, Maylander, I forgot about that. While reading the novel, I thought that particular action made complete sense (I kept asking myself why it hadn't been done earlier), but I can also see how it shows Loghain as someone who subordinates personal ties and love to country. He did the same thing in his other main relationship, though I perceived that as heroic. Two sides of the same coin, I guess.