Kickstarter: call me paranoid

[Lucky Day]

With the sudden popularity of Kickstarters (I'm waiting for Age of Decadence to jump on that bandwagon) generating large amounts of coin (Shadowrun raised US$200k in a few hours and, of course, Wasteland 2 and Double Fine Adventure have raised millions) I can't help but realize this whole system is going to collapse quite dramatically.

What started as a few artists, instead of looking for a micro-loan, they started looking for donations, and it worked. It works out great for them because they aren't obligated to pay anything back, and unlike Venture cap they don't give up any ownership either.

But remember IPO's? Too many companies lacked a lot of substance.

Cash is pouring into big names: right now its legacy franchises.

But I can't help but wonder when the first of these big names is going to collapse and the cash they took is going to end up in a Cayman Islands account.

I just think its inevitable that these kind of numbers are going to attract fraud.

That said, I have dreams for my board game which is almost finished. Hopefully I can't get it done before this happens.

 

[Zloth]

I don't think you're being paranoid at all. What kind of gatekeeping is Kickstarter doing? Do they at least check to make sure the person making the request for cash actually has the rights to make the game they are saying they want to make? Or can anyone (especially anyone that used to have a big name in the business) make up anything they want, pull in a truckload of cash, and simply vanish?

I don't see any reason why the developer would even need to move. They simply try to start their old 8-bit 68000 compiler, watch it crash, then announce to everyone that the project ran into "unexpected technical difficulties" and keep the money. They might need to walk around in a raincoat because of all the people spitting on them for what they did but $400,000 buys a lot of raincoats.

 

[rossrjensen]

I could see that happening, but it doesn't seem likely that a company like Double Fine or inXile would do something like that. This is only one project out of many that they have done or would like to continue doing, so I find it unlikely that they would subject themselves to that kind of bad publicity. I could see a more unknown entity doing something like that, but they are generally raising much smaller amounts of money. Just like buying a stock, I think investing in a small, more unknown project obviously has a lot more risk attached with it.

 

[Thrasher]

What's more disturbing to me is the devs have to resort to kickstarters to fund their new projects, rather than more publishers stepping up to the plate.

 

[blatantninja]

I think its just an issue of the developers saying "Hey, we don't NEED the publishers for these types of games!" Obviously the publishers weren't big on these games though.

As for the gatekeeping, there is a whole section on the kickstarter website where they go through the contracts they use to make sure the recipients deliver what is promised (or at the least make an acceptable effort to, obviously some things don't turn out). Could there still be fraud? Sure, but the guys running kickstarter know the only thing they have is their reputation, so I would expect them to be fairly vigilant.

 

[redman5427]

I agree with the OP- All these kick-starters use words like Turn based- deep-RPG,Isometric, meaningful choices. Rpg players are like kids in the candy store once they hear these magic words.

If you think the risk is worth it though, go for it.

 

[CountChocula]

Do they at least check to make sure the person making the request for cash actually has the rights to make the game they are saying they want to make?

I'm certain Kickstarter does not do do this. They earn 5% of all the funds raised, but they would never break even if they hired lawyers to review the chain of title for every single project submitted.

In the case of high profile projects, if a rightsholder was infringed upon, I imagine they would be making some waves, however, and certainly Kickstarter's TOS includes indemnity language, although who knows, perhaps this will be tested in court when we hear about the first "Kickstarter Scandal."

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Well, if I do something like this, I know I take a bit of a risk. Thats at the very heart of the idea of Kickstarter though. You take a risk on something you like. In the case of these games you hope they actually get made, finished, and turn out decent. Now, I am not donating on the $10000 level, and the $15-50 I pledge, yeah, I can live with that risk. Still an actuall fraud case would of course be very bad for the whole thing.

 

[BillSeurer]

I feel like doing the Fallout Baldur's Gate Planescape cRPG. It will of course be totally turn based with a rich, flexible stat system, awesome combat system, intelligent and funny NPCs, and a complex branching yet easily followable story offering dozens of replays. Start those "donations" flowing!

I will of course need to, uh, fly to the International Space Station in order to get a first hand feeling for what the earth really looks like.

 

[Zloth]

I could see that happening, but it doesn't seem likely that a company like Double Fine or inXile would do something like that.

That's true. Game companies that are small-but-established should work well here.

BillSeurer: Idunno.... I think I would rather invest in an MMO where your actions really have an affect on the world around you.

 

[Dhruin]

Hi Paranoid, I'm Dhruin!

Do I think the crowds will get bored and wander off? Sure, to some degree.
Do I think some projects will fail or not reach expectations? Yes!
Do I think some developers will try to exploit it for quick cash? Probably.

On the other hand, I think some excellent projects will get funded that otherwise wouldn't have existed. I've back four projects so far (FTL, Wasteland 2, Banner Saga, Shadowrun Returns). I'm expecting Dead State, possibly an Obsidian one and another couple of indies.

All of these have a $15-get-the-game option or so. If 50% of the current four produce a reasonable game, then I'll have two decent TB cRPGs at an average price of $30 (actually, I've pledged more but that's my choice). Games in a genre that basically doesn't exist any more, but the community helped enable.

Sounds awesome to me. Imagine if they turn out to be great games.

I do feel a bit sorry for the devs who miss this wave and for the devs who have potential but lack the "household" name. Tortured Hearts might be the best game ever, for example, but it won't get funded. But that's human nature, isn't it? We'll still get some high-profile developments that wouldn't have otherwise been made and a few indies who lay the right groundwork will be successful, so all up, this is a great thing for gaming.

 

[holeraw]

I think that people are mistaken in approaching kickstarter as the ultimate alternative method of funding that bypasses publishers. It would be good if we were to stop needing them but I expect that crowdfunding will fade out eventually when people start realizing that they pay for promises of games that they won't get for months while they can be paying for games they actually know they like and that they can play here and now.

Kickstarter should be used as a proof that audiences that are widely considered extinct do exist and are willing to pay to get games that are considered unpopular, even if they are of low budget and smaller scope.

Therefore the whole idea should not be to completely bypass publishers but instead to convince them that a. it's safe to invest in games they consider unpopular and b. that they should allow developers more freedom.

 

[Gaxkang]

If there were proper gatekeeping, we'd need $2 million just to fund the lawyers and bankers that keep the devs straight.

I'll risk $15 if it means I have a chance to free up innovation, risk taking and creativity in my favorite entertainment. A chance to rid the industry of the stranglehold of the "make me a new FPS!" publisher. Publishers that want microtransactions for more ammo, always online DRM, day 1 DLC etc.

Yeah, like any investment, you win some you lose some. But no pain, no gain. I'd be worried about gatekeeping if I were investing $10k. But if $15 gives me the chance to get a non shooter, made by gamers for gamers, then I'm all for it.

 

[bjon045]

I firmly believe publishers and other capital providers should have no place in the gaming industry. All they do is add overheads and suck money out of the game development industry. Currently the developers on most games do not get rich, it is the corporate fat cats who never lift a finger while they do not actually bare any risk - if it goes pear shaped the company goes bankrupt and they just end up in another firm with a different name.

 

[redman5427]

I firmly believe publishers and other capital providers should have no place in the gaming industry. All they do is add overheads and suck money out of the game development industry.

Whoa!

I don't think you understand the amount of money the publishers sink in these projects. Publishers advertise,market,pay bills and get investors. Like any business, they keep motivation moving along. I love Indie games as much as anyone but the business side of this means for every Jeff Vogel there are dozens of guys who drop out. Publishers know how to get attention for their games and get the product on a shelf. Steam and other digital have change the landscape a bit but it still takes some clout to get things done. If people want an Elder Scrolls game(and sales show people do) it is only gonna happen through the big players.

I still think I will support Wasteland because I really want to see that game but don't you think its kind of funny that all the kickstarter noise is about RPG's? Where are the FPS people?

Kickstarter should be used as a proof that audiences that are widely considered extinct do exist and are willing to pay to get games that are considered unpopular, even if they are of low budget and smaller scope.

This

 

[Zloth]

I don't think you understand the amount of money the publishers sink in these projects. Publishers advertise,market,pay bills and get investors. Like any business, they keep motivation moving along.

They also typically provide a lot of the QA. Do they do translations to other languages, too? That seems like something that would be tricky for a dev shop to pull off.

 

[JonNik]

I still think I will support Wasteland because I really want to see that game but don't you think its kind of funny that all the kickstarter noise is about RPG's? Where are the FPS people?

would you buy a FPS with graphics outta doom 1 ?

I see Kickstarter as a great way to fund indies we really want to see and make a higher level of quality possible out of them. It is also a very good fit for RPGs that is a niche more focused on gameplay and mechanics rather than AAA production values…
(And is more likely to bring sales by word of mouth and get a cult following)

The scene is indeed fragile though… All it would take is one big failure I am afraid…

Still, and despite my misgivings, I was only too happy to support Shadowrun and then in all honesty could not but support Wasteland 2 since I got myself kickstartering.
Dead state will be a nobrainer. That's it I hope, unless someone Kickstarters the Cthulhu or Stalker or Ars Magica RPGs I always dreamed about (Or Someone Kickstarters Stalker 2 for that matter, I would play that with Doom 1 graphics… or the COP Engine )

P.S: I am sure the big wigs of the gaming industry are keeping an eye on this… It really needs to be a smashing success to make them budge from their comfort zone though (and we are talking area of a million copies here at least)… kinda tough at this point…

I do wonder what the "me too" moneygrabbers at bioware are thinking though. Maybe we'll see a halfway decent DA3 after all ?

 

[Gaxkang]

Whoa!

I don't think you understand the amount of money the publishers sink in these projects. Publishers advertise,market,pay bills and get investors. Like any business, they keep motivation moving along.

Advertise, market (synonymous) and get investors (ie financing) I agree. Not sure what you mean by "pay bills" and "keep motivation moving along". I bet that if a developer got their reward on the market with no middle men, the motivation to hurry up would not need to be artificially generated by bosses in ivory board rooms. It would come naturally. If you pay developers upfront using a publisher model, then yes, you will need to kick them in the behind once in a while, that's just human nature.

On the whole these days, publishers stifle innovation, stick to sequels and rehashes, invent self defeating DRM that only inconveniences paying customers, pour huge money into soulless duds because they are out of touch with gamers, shamelessly milk their customers with day 1 DLC, and add layers of bloat and bureaucracy to the industry. The more the market can be separated out from the likes of EA and Activision the better.

Kickstart takes care of the money side of what publishers do, but the advertising remains a blind spot.

 

[curious]

ultimately kickstarter is more about artists/inventors/etc being able to survive, and do the things they are passionate about gaming is only a small portion of the projects and the negative and meh responses are clearly a representation about how most gamers view game devs as not artists and inventors or otherwise inspiring people but simply "lunch ladies" giving them there next tasty meal.

put up or shut up in my view. people will put faith in meaningless paper, floating deities in the sky, corporations, or sports teams but when it comes to other people even ones who have a track record of ingeniuity, creativity, etc. they somehow have a hard time "believing". of course projects and people will fail that is life, but does it really have to be about you not getting every game you want?

 

[redman5427]

would you buy a FPS with graphics outta doom 1 ?

Lol! Doom was so much fun