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Dasale January 2nd, 2011 21:57

DKS More streamlined?
 
I played a part of Divinity II Ego Draconis and then I got the DKS version, and then discovered I couldn't reuse saves of D2ED in DKS, not even for the expansion included in DKS. So I restarted with DKS, I had played a long session but it wasn't that huge and it was ok to restart.

The double play generated an awful feeling that there's many little details in DSK that are evolution to make it a little bit Oblivion like, I mean more in the main stream of Western RPG. It's just so awful and sad to notice that, even if it's just details:
  • The little detail that really chock me was that now the keys (or most of them) get a sort of particle effect involving in no way you have to search them but now you just quote them and pick them… what a challenge. Before it was many good mildly hidden objects adding some more spice to exploring and now it became just basic obvious click to do.
  • More ambiguous change, before there was in many more area much more box or barrels to check. Before there was probably too many but now you end with many corners empty. So now you just need fly through areas not putting care in details and don't worry, the game will put you obviously right under your noise the stuff to quote. I'm exaggerating but not that much.
  • Hidden stuff that was fun to find now often became obvious stuff you hardly don't notice. A very symbolic example is there's a personal diary you can find under a pack of straw, now you just see the book on the ground quite obvious and no realism to have such book not hidden.
  • I'm not sure but read and got this feeling too, that the difficulty that wasn't so high before, but it has been tune down a lot, seems like normal difficulty is now like easy difficulty was.

Moreover, and no idea why perhaps to solve other bugs, but I noticed many behaviors not working as well and overall that became more basic:
  • For example there's town folk out of the tavern until you solve the problem and when you do in old game version you see them coming back from the stairs, perhaps that's too fast but now instead three spawn magically and two other are still outside but when you start talk with them it's like they are in the cavern.
  • Another example is a way to solve a problem is to start a fight with some drunk men. In old version of the game right after you start the fight an event happen, now the even happen sooner avoiding the fight even starts, despite the dialog that follow pretends otherwise.

All in all this evolution to a more main stream approach in too many details won't be a dramatic change to the game but still is a significant change, and quite unpleasant. It's just one more game history event showing how the whole Western RPG community is evolving to passive RPG where anything is obvious and all need to be pinpoint clearly by the game.

The worst is that I contributed to this, even if it's in an insignificant part, I contributed by getting tired of waiting the fix (released a long later than English fix, but that's a poor excuse) and never come back again to it, because I listened the general feeling that it wasn't a that good game and never gave it a chance. Now I feel a bit punished with this DKS version that evolved a bit more to the mainstream WRPG approach approach I hate so much. But I'll come back to play the original version and well will buy a second time the expansion to have it compatible. Still it's one more talented team of WRPG designer/developper that have learned it's much better to fit the mass and mimic Oblivion. :(

RivianWitch January 2nd, 2011 22:44

Oh no… I hadn't realised they actually changed the core game so much. Instead of simply buying the expansion, I went and bought this, because it was cheaper than just the expansion alone.. >:(

Loving the original Div 2 and getting close to the end of it now.

tolknaz January 3rd, 2011 07:54

I hated the glint on keys that they added too. That being said, many changes in DKS are for the better, such as the removal of original game's horrible level scaling, where you couldn't hurt enemies a few levels above your level no matter what gear you used or what stats the enemy actually had.

Dhruin January 3rd, 2011 08:21

Honestly, I think you're exaggerating. I agree the particle effect is unnecessary but I disagree everything is obvious. I'm still missing a couple of keys, so they're not all that obvious.

There are plenty of boxes and barrels. I haven't compared the quantity but I certainly don't need more.

The difficulty has been smoothed over - and, frankly, it's a good thing. Some of the changes in locations were too difficult previously and the scaling was a problem. It's much more appropriate now. Bear in mind this is a hack'n'slash game — there should be a certain flow to the combat. I know plenty of people will disagree - turn the difficulty up.

azarhal January 3rd, 2011 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dasale (Post 1061042701)
  • For example there's town folk out of the tavern until you solve the problem and when you do in old game version you see them coming back from the stairs, perhaps that's too fast but now instead three spawn magically and two other are still outside but when you start talk with them it's like they are in the cavern.
  • Another example is a way to solve a problem is to start a fight with some drunk men. In old version of the game right after you start the fight an event happen, now the even happen sooner avoiding the fight even starts, despite the dialog that follow pretends otherwise.

The first one worked correctly for me in DKS twice, the people were coming down from the stairs and the two old mens outside entered the Tavern while I was still in it. Not sure about the other one, but if you are talking about the 3 drunks in the Tavern, I didn't have any problem fighting them, twice again…

Dasale January 3rd, 2011 17:47

By mentioning Oblivion I am exaggerating and yes it implied a sort of everything obvious. I didn't mean that I just mean that changes was pointless because the design was well done about it without the effect. And this change was totally in the Oblivion spirit. In fact in original game each time I see this effect it is awfully pointless, like you know where there's a hidden passage, but nope the game put right into your face a huge particle effect perhaps in case you are almost blind but more probably in case you just rush through the game like an idiot.

But yes it's not Oblivion, quests give you hints not an arrow to follow, in fact for some of the main keys the game provide you multiple redundant hints in case you miss some which is a good design and making pointless the particle effect in those cases.

For the behavior bugs I quoted ok it seems my version isn't fully clean or there's a part of random, have you played with the latest patch? I have seen complain about it adding bugs. Anyway then it's bug and not simplification so it's out of context of the subject.

EDIT: And for the difficulty smoothed that's a complicated question, I came back to the original game and quite soon my mage morphed in archer seems quite overpowerful through the buy of a weapon hitting harder, and in DKS version the stuff choice available at shops is quite more diversified and quite more numerous in the category of strong magical stuff. I know from what is coming this pale change, the multiple young whiners reinforced by the Diablo fanatics that want a super weapon/armor at each corner.

tolknaz January 3rd, 2011 23:07

People have indeed made a fuss over finding good gear too early in DKS. Also, if i remember correctly someone from Larian said, that before last patch for DKS the random item generator for the stores and chests was a bit too generous and that it's a bug.
I still fail to see how availability of enchanted/charmed equipment from the stores early on is any kind of a problem, given that you have access to an enchanter and charms too from early on.

azarhal January 4th, 2011 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dasale (Post 1061042804)
For the behavior bugs I quoted ok it seems my version isn't fully clean or there's a part of random, have you played with the latest patch? I have seen complain about it adding bugs. Anyway then it's bug and not simplification so it's out of context of the subject.

Not patched.

Dasale January 4th, 2011 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by tolknaz (Post 1061042867)
People have indeed made a fuss over finding good gear too early in DKS. Also, if i remember correctly someone from Larian said, that before last patch for DKS the random item generator for the stores and chests was a bit too generous and that it's a bug.
I still fail to see how availability of enchanted/charmed equipment from the stores early on is any kind of a problem, given that you have access to an enchanter and charms too from early on.

I played the Steam version for DKS, not sure if it has the last patch or not but it still has the problem. At least it's my feeling could be also a huge random event misguiding me.

The point isn't a balance problem even if uber weapons and armors can contribute, the point is multiplication make it common stuff and destroy the pleasure of rarity. I haven't find yet the charm workshop but the enchantment workshop isn't at the very beginning like the first shops.

Anyway throw plenty very good magic items in first shops and it destroys the fun of finding and use the enchantment and charm workshop.

But well that point is for me more minor than the relative multiplication of particle effects.
Quote:

Originally Posted by azarhal (Post 1061042947)
Not patched.

I don't know if Steam version is patched or not. Anyway I didn't played further DKS and switched to D2:EG and will stick to it then I'll see what I do for the expansion.

tolknaz January 4th, 2011 20:52

I don't know… I played through the game and in the end i didn't find quite a few most powerful enchantment recipes in the game, although i checked every container i could find.
Also, the stuff you find in the beginning doesn't last you very long anyway, unless you can find items with many slots (again, i played through both the original Ego Draconis game and DKS opening every container and i wouldn't say the gear was that different in favor of DKS).

Dhruin January 5th, 2011 00:15

Steam version is automatically patched, unless you specifically switched that off.

Dasale January 5th, 2011 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by tolknaz (Post 1061042995)
I don't know… I played through the game and in the end i didn't find quite a few most powerful enchantment recipes in the game, although i checked every container i could find.
Also, the stuff you find in the beginning doesn't last you very long anyway, unless you can find items with many slots (again, i played through both the original Ego Draconis game and DKS opening every container and i wouldn't say the gear was that different in favor of DKS).

Those items at first shops will hardly build a disbalance it's just they build a negative psychological effect, destroying the pleasure of rarity. For the enchantment recipes if an item has one you can remove it and then it is available to be used if you have the base material.

Steam isn't always up to date with games patches and I didn't check if for this game Steam is up to date but yes I have probably auto patch for all my Steam games.

Dhruin January 5th, 2011 03:17

I didn't mean Steam in general, I meant - specifically - this game is up to date on Steam; it is patched.

crpgnut January 5th, 2011 05:06

I'm a little surprised at how much less treasure I'm getting in the DKS version. There seems to be a LOT less loot in Broken Valley than there was in ED. It's not really affecting gameplay though, so it doesn't matter ultimately. I'd say there is over a 100 less barrels, urns, chests, etc. in the first area.

Dasale January 6th, 2011 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by crpgnut (Post 1061043043)
I'm a little surprised at how much less treasure I'm getting in the DKS version. There seems to be a LOT less loot in Broken Valley than there was in ED. It's not really affecting gameplay though, so it doesn't matter ultimately. I'd say there is over a 100 less barrels, urns, chests, etc. in the first area.

That was certainly a point to improve, too often there's a pack of barrels/boxes and other, like 4/6 barrels at the same place. It was probably a way to compensate a random engine mechanism, but this is the random engine that should have been tuned.

But it's cool to put a reward in many special corners or tops, but just one or two box/barrel and not plenty. This should not be tunned down. It needs to be check but it seems they not only tune down the number of barrels, which is good, but also the number of places where there are some little bounty and that is less cool.

Dasale January 9th, 2011 16:49

I'd like add something about DKS vs D2:EG.

I have almost finished D2:EG, well not really but played large parts of last (big) part of the game. And that last part is the more original but alas the difficulty management fails a lot too much.

In that parts of the game you often get a lot too hard fights (clue there's perhaps something else to do elsewhere) or a lot too easy fights (alas it's often when you get back to a part/quest that was previously too hard). And when I mean easy it's a lot worse, in fact you'll often end in fights where your character nude (removing all but weapons) will take no damages or almost. I quoted this could happen even if the monsters are only 4 levels lower. So you flee an area/quest because it is too hard and when you come back to it you get a boring gameplay like if you play with god mode activated.

So it's possible that DKS is a bit more streamlined in first part. But it seems that for the more original and more interesting part of the game ie the last parts, that DKS is the choice to make. I can't say by myself, but from what I read the god mode problem I mentioned and the overall difficulty management has been changed in DKS, this making it possibly a much more worthy pick than D2:ED, to be able enjoy better the last parts of the game that are the more original.


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