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-   -   Dragon Age II…again (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12804)

Nerevarine March 3rd, 2011 02:33

Dragon Age II…again
 
I stumbled upon an interesting article discussing the design changes of Dragon Age 2 in comparison to Origins, and how it relates to the perceived "decline" of crpg's as a whole. I think that the overall message from the author of this article is presented in an objective and fair manner, so if anyone wants to check it out (assuming that readers aren't burned out already on the DA2 discussions), here's a link:

http://www.hookedgamers.com/editoria…sic_rpg-3.html

Couchpotato March 3rd, 2011 06:09

Thank you for the new article link. I was starting to think all I would see is bioware love articles. He does make a point about Dragon Age II and the decline of the classic rpg. Its a dying genre nowadays.

Nerevarine March 3rd, 2011 06:40

No problem. I thought the author did a good job of objectively analyzing what the changes presented in DA2 mean from an RPG standpoint, without going into a "Bioware SUX!!" rant. He pretty much summed up how I feel about several mainstream "RPGs" released in the last few years - especially from Bioware. They aren't terrible games, but they don't feel like great RPGs with expansive, immersive role-playing, either (though DA:O was an exception for me out of Bioware's newer games).

As far as the decline of RPGs - at least, AAA RPGs - the decline started years ago, as most of us know. But I don't think that AAA RPGs will ever die out completely; this year alone, there are 3 AAA RPGs that I am really looking forward to that don't appear to be "dumbed down" console-focused games: Deus Ex, Witcher 2, and Skyrim. As much as I lament new "RPGs" being made into simple mainstream button-mashers and wish that there were more "true" RPGs coming out every year, I don't think the RPG market will ever die out completely - although the danger of that happening always seems lurking around the corner.

GhanBuriGhan March 3rd, 2011 08:07

This may echo the sentiments of many, but it hardly presents any hard facts or a solid analysis of the subject. You'll find a lot more substantive and better reasoned commetary in posts here on the Watch, actually.

Couchpotato March 3rd, 2011 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan (Post 1061053950)
This may echo the sentiments of many, but it hardly presents any hard facts or a solid analysis of the subject. You'll find a lot more substantive and better reasoned commetary in posts here on the Watch, actually.

Of course but its impossible not to get in an argument on this site also.

JDR13 March 3rd, 2011 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerevarine (Post 1061053947)
As far as the decline of RPGs - at least, AAA RPGs - the decline started years ago, as most of us know. But I don't think that AAA RPGs will ever die out completely; this year alone, there are 3 AAA RPGs that I am really looking forward to that don't appear to be "dumbed down" console-focused games: Deus Ex, Witcher 2, and Skyrim. As much as I lament new "RPGs" being made into simple mainstream button-mashers and wish that there were more "true" RPGs coming out every year, I don't think the RPG market will ever die out completely - although the danger of that happening always seems lurking around the corner.

I absolutely agree about the decline starting years ago.

I remember when Bioware released KotOR, and most people were like "OMG, this is one of the best evar!!". I could only scratch my head and wonder if they were being serious. I still enjoyed the game, but it was hard for me not to mourn how streamlined it was compared to Bioware's older titles. That was the beginning of the end of the "old Bioware" imo.

Nerevarine March 3rd, 2011 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan (Post 1061053950)
This may echo the sentiments of many, but it hardly presents any hard facts or a solid analysis of the subject. You'll find a lot more substantive and better reasoned commetary in posts here on the Watch, actually.

True, but I don't think it was meant to go that far in overall scope; it seemed more like a direct analysis on the differences between DA:O and DA2, with some other thoughts on RPGs as a whole explored as well.

DArtagnan March 3rd, 2011 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061053952)
I absolutely agree about the decline starting years ago.

I remember when Bioware released KotOR, and most people were like "OMG, this is one of the best evar!!". I could only scratch my head and wonder if they were being serious. I still enjoyed the game, but it was hard for me not to mourn how streamlined it was compared to Bioware's older titles. That was the beginning of the end of the "old Bioware" imo.

I see where you're coming from.

However, at the time - I wasn't prepared for Bioware "going all the way" with that kind of thing - and I saw KotOR as a natural move to consoles, that made good business sense. Maybe it was because I respected Neverwinter Nights so much as an achievement. I really felt Bioware WANTED to further the genre and WANTED to make steps towards something revolutionary.

I didn't expect them to start focusing on that "KotOR-style" and streamlined gameplay exclusively - though I did fear it a little I suppose - and I had no issue with them branching out.

So, while KotOR was indeed a step away from complexity and tactical combat - I still think it had a strong design which fulfilled most of my demands in that way.

It wasn't until Jade Empire that I saw this being a huge issue - and yet I still kept faith that this was just a console thing, and that PC would still get a proper amount of focus in the future.

So, with Mass Effect - I (obviously being very naive) expected a "return to form" carrying the strength of KotOR - but with modern production values and strong intricate gameplay. I just didn't have the insight required to see that they'd go in the direction they did. I sat pretty much with my mouth open when I stared at the character system, the inventory system, and the loot system. I just couldn't figure out how they could make such a dull and dreary set of mechanics - when they're the people behind complex D&D adaptions. In terms of RPG mechanics, I consider Mass Effect a complete failure.

That's where it finally dawned on me, that the Bioware of old was lost.

I think I might have "let it go" if it wasn't for Dragon Age - and the insistence of Bioware developers (here on this forum, even) that they were still doing complex games with old-school gameplay. As it turned out, Dragon Age was obviously a remnant of when they started it - and the result was kind of a mixed bag.

Then along comes Mass Effect 2 - and now Dragon Age 2 - and completely cements that they have absolutely no interest in the old-school complex designs. They don't refine gameplay mechanics - they throw them out of the window. They remove everything that didn't quite work - instead of making those things work.

Really sad way of dealing with it.

SAGO March 3rd, 2011 13:13

i'd rather watch an interactive movie than play baldurr hurrs gate again

DArtagnan March 3rd, 2011 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAGO (Post 1061054006)
i'd rather watch an interactive movie than play baldurr hurrs gate again

You must be looking forward to Dragon Age 2 then ;)

SAGO March 3rd, 2011 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061054007)
You must be looking forward to Dragon Age 2 then ;)

what do you think i've been doing since it came out?

check mah profile.




















































































































(masturbating excessively to bethanys distorted body)

DArtagnan March 3rd, 2011 13:21

Well, who can blame you.

Alrik Fassbauer March 3rd, 2011 13:28

The question is to me rather : "Do they [e.g. Bioware] want to do "classic" RPGs at all ?"

My answer to that is : "No."

Maylander March 3rd, 2011 14:21

I enjoyed Jade Empire quite a lot, mainly because of the interesting setting, but it is certainly the easiest and most streamlined CRPG BioWare has made so far. There hasn't been any decline after that. They've had ups and downs, but overall no decline beyond JE.

DArtagnan March 3rd, 2011 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maylander (Post 1061054044)
I enjoyed Jade Empire quite a lot, mainly because of the interesting setting, but it is certainly the easiest and most streamlined CRPG BioWare has made so far. There hasn't been any decline after that. They've had ups and downs, but overall no decline beyond JE.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

The only Bioware game I didn't feel like playing at all - after a few hours.

azarhal March 3rd, 2011 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer (Post 1061054016)
The question is to me rather : "Do they [e.g. Bioware] want to do "classic" RPGs at all ?"

My answer to that is : "No."

I don't think BioWare definition of "classic RPGs" is the same as some people have anyway, so yes the answer is no.

They haven't changed their RPG game style since BG1, people just can't see past the technology used in the games. They all have companions, in-game cutscenes, VO (although not as extensive in the older days), a plot full of Swiss cheese and tropes and, as of BG2, some form of romances.

Personally, I think that the entire gaming industry is following the TV show industry, not just BioWare. We will soon have reality video games!

*Goes back to play Age of Wonders*

JDR13 March 3rd, 2011 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by azarhal (Post 1061054048)
They haven't changed their RPG game style since BG1

With a statement like that, I'll just have to assume you haven't actually played any of their games since the BG series. ;)

azarhal March 3rd, 2011 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061054054)
With a statement like that, I'll just have to assume you haven't actually played any of their games since the BG series. ;)

I'm not in the mood for ;). Try not quoting out of context next time.

And I played all of their game beside Shattered Steel and that Sonic RPG.

JDR13 March 4th, 2011 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by azarhal (Post 1061054097)
I'm not in the mood for ;). Try not quoting out of context next time.

And I played all of their game beside Shattered Steel and that Sonic RPG.

Then you must be blind, and I'll leave the smiley out this time.


*Edit* No need to get bent out of shape.. for either of us. I was obviously kidding about you not having played any of their other games. I also fail to see how I was quoting you out of context. I just don't understand how you would think Bioware hasn't changed their RPG style since BG1.

SAGO March 4th, 2011 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061054152)
Then you must be blind, and I'll leave the smiley out this time.


*Edit* No need to get bent out of shape.. for either of us. I was obviously kidding about you not having played any of their other games. I also fail to see how I was quoting you out of context. I just don't understand how you would think Bioware hasn't changed their RPG style since BG1.

well they're still combat heavy games with no real consequences for choices

amirite? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

:( i'm sad now


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