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-   -   CDPR Defends Difficulty (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13754)

GothicLena May 24th, 2011 23:05

CDPR Defends Difficulty
 
Thought some of the old school types around here would appreciate this

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20…r-2-difficulty

They basically tell people to 'get over it' in terms of the hard difficulty. I dont necessarily approve since they are selling a product that they want to succeed in the mainstream and they wont change alot of peoples minds but I definatly have to respect them for standing their ground and defending their design decisions. If only more developers would stop trying to please everyone we'd probably have better games overall.

Paul May 24th, 2011 23:07

I absolutely love their attitude.

"deal with it"

<3 CDP.

DArtagnan May 24th, 2011 23:20

I love their approach.

Fuck the mainstream and do what's in your heart.

xSamhainx May 24th, 2011 23:25

Witcher 2's tutorial kicked my ass a few times, that's a first. I can respect that

GothicGothicness May 25th, 2011 09:35

I don't get why people are complaining? if they don't want a challenge they can play on easy…. that's why there is an easy setting!

Or is it just that these guys who can't handle a little challange want to pretend they are so good and smart because they can beat a game like mass appeal on hardest difficulty without any challange ?

JonNik May 25th, 2011 09:59

What I find surprising is that generally this attitude is well received.

I would have feared that they shot themselves in the foot by introducing
a system with an actual learning curve, but it seems very few are whining
about it!

As for all the griping about the UI and the controls: well I am sure they
are indeed problematic but I can't understand how it can really
damage your enjoyment of a pretty good game (certainly did not prevent
Gothic 1 to be an all time favorite for me).

Its particularly this GUI obsession, especially in american audiences, I do not get.
Seems to take priority from the actual feature set in most digital products
these days. I blame Apple really (while typing this on my macbook)…

DArtagnan May 25th, 2011 10:23

There are a few quirky issues with the UI - especially regarding the inventory - but I find the controls very comfortable, considering the options you have available.

There's no doubt a lot of things could be improved, but if you look at the combined experience - it's just head and shoulders above the competition.

joxer May 25th, 2011 13:26

Bah, ppl got too used to default easy setting in recent games and some think games have to be finished in 2 hours.
There is nothing to defend here, the game difficulty was made as it should be (except the case of certain chapter 3 sidequest battle, but it's purely optional).

LuckyCarbon May 25th, 2011 19:56

The attitude I like, their head in the sand I don't.

When that many people are complaining about a few particular fights ( temple courtyard & dragon on the bridge, and that Metroid like boss fight in chapter 1 for the most part ) and your frustrating your fans past the point of enjoyment, then you did something wrong. Rather than tell everyone to STFU, maybe you really should re-examine those scenarios. Every game is going to have whining ( heck, I'm still whining about the UI & controls ) but when the whining is that consistent, that's a sign.

The combat is farily easy for me now playing on normal ( I must be near the end of chapter 1 ) but all the complaints I had at the start still exist, I've just learned them well enough to compensate for them.

Those two prologue fights were way more difficult than anything I've encountered since.
Spoiler

curious May 25th, 2011 20:07

i can't speak to the normal difficulty as i just finished chapter 1 last night and a bit into chapter 2 and while there have been some insane fights, unlike many games in the past where some spots took hours to overcome and pass, even the "metroid boss" only took about 1/2 or so to overcome after using my brain and some twitch to figure things out. a few fights in the prologue actually proved far more difficult and i sware when you need to fire the balista at the tower that after failing the fight before you get to it nearly a dozen times that the game "scaled" the diffiuclty by throwing only a couple of fighters at me instead of the 4 or 5. that's the only time i've seen something like it in the game and not sure if it was just a bug?

curious May 25th, 2011 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061071518)
I love their approach.

Fuck the mainstream and do what's in your heart.

As long as you take what comes from the heart and mod it;)

Drithius May 25th, 2011 21:20

The only thing they should change is the Kayran fight. The mechanics of that are beyond irritating when you go into the fight blind. There's so many different parts to the fight you have to learn without any hints beforehand… one screwup and you have to repeat everything over, only to get to the next "trick".

It's easy if you follow some internet walkthrough of the mechanics, but I'd like to think that's not a requisite to enjoy a battle, rather than curse at it for a couple hours.

The rest of the game is balanced fairly well; I look forward to meeting Letho again
Spoiler
knowing what I know now about combat after beating the game the first time.

LuckyCarbon May 25th, 2011 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drithius (Post 1061071716)
The rest of the game is balanced fairly well; I look forward to meeting Letho again knowing what I know now about combat after beating the game the first time.

I just did that fight this morning, took me three tries i think. Was totally unprepared for it because the cutscenes aren't kind to you for preparing for that one, all the more reason I'd like to be able to drink potions outside of meditating.

My strategy was to:
Spoiler – SPOILER

The fight was pretty easy doing it that way.

DArtagnan May 25th, 2011 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyCarbon (Post 1061071706)
The attitude I like, their head in the sand I don't.

You're the one with your head in the sand.

Quote:

When that many people are complaining about a few particular fights ( temple courtyard & dragon on the bridge, and that Metroid like boss fight in chapter 1 for the most part ) and your frustrating your fans past the point of enjoyment, then you did something wrong. Rather than tell everyone to STFU, maybe you really should re-examine those scenarios. Every game is going to have whining ( heck, I'm still whining about the UI & controls ) but when the whining is that consistent, that's a sign.
I play on hard, and I didn't die once during the prologue - after trying it on normal.

Why? Because I made the effort and learned the mechanics. The game is fair, and it requires the player to invest. I'm not particularly skilled either, just an experienced enthusiast gamer. I died plenty of times during my first time on normal - learning the ropes. What I didn't do, was start whining the moment the game handed me my ass. I told myself it was a challenge and that they'd probably considered a few things about balance - and just maybe they'd playtested it a bit.

People who don't want to make the effort, will not be able to play the game comfortably.

That's what the whole enthusiast development is about.

They don't CARE that casual gamers are having a hard time, as they made an easy mode for that.

The only thing consistent about the whining, is how people are in denial due to their own lack of investment or flatout lack of skill.

Also, they're not saying STFU or anything like that. They're simply saying they made the game for people who want a challenge.

Quote:

The combat is farily easy for me now playing on normal ( I must be near the end of chapter 1 ) but all the complaints I had at the start still exist, I've just learned them well enough to compensate for them.
I learned to work with the system, as it was designed. Rather than working against it and adapt, why don't you try that?

Quote:

Those two prologue fights were way more difficult than anything I've encountered since.
Spoiler

If you want some tips on how to handle those fights with ease, let me know. On normal, they're quite easy once you understand the nuances of the combat system. The dragon thing is annoying, but is basically a SINGLE timed move from building to building. The actual fight is a total cakewalk on normal.

If you don't, then understand that it's because you don't want to make the effort - and not because the game is unfair.

JDR13 May 25th, 2011 23:15

Hmm.. the toughest fight for me in Chapter 1 was actually..

Spoiler – During the "In the Claws of Madness" quest..

Couchpotato May 25th, 2011 23:28

I found it easy after disabling the harder QTE'S. I despise them and applaud the devs for allowing you to turn them off. Still have to deal with the 5 min fist-fighting QTE's though.

LuckyCarbon May 25th, 2011 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061071726)
You're the one with your head in the sand.

Geeze, DArt, you're usually a reasonable guy but that hurt my feelings ( don't worry, I'm a pretty tough guy, I'll get over it ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061071726)
I play on hard, and I didn't die once during the prologue - after trying it on normal.

Why? Because I made the effort and learned the mechanics. The game is fair, and it requires the player to invest. I'm not particularly skilled either, just an experienced enthusiast gamer. I died plenty of times during my first time on normal - learning the ropes.

So…we're in a agreement then, the game does a poor job of explaining the combat to you, and throws you in expecting you to die multiple times until you get the hang of it. I previously likened it to being taught how to swim by being thrown in the water. Like I said, after I got a hang of the (IMO wonky) controls and learned the mechanics through trial and error I haven't had too many challenges since.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061071726)
What I didn't do, was start whining the moment the game handed me my ass. I told myself it was a challenge and that they'd probably considered a few things about balance - and just maybe they'd playtested it a bit.

We'll just have to disagree here, I'm one of those people that doesn't automatically assume the developer is infallible. I have tried to provide constructive feedback about the parts I think could use improvement, not that the devs will likely read any of it but I find it cathartic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061071726)
People who don't want to make the effort, will not be able to play the game comfortably.

That's what the whole enthusiast development is about.

They don't CARE that casual gamers are having a hard time, as they made an easy mode for that.

Also, they're not saying STFU or anything like that. They're simply saying they made the game for people who want a challenge.

I think CDPR would be pretty stupid if they don't care about casual gamers. As much as we all love these games enough to keep trying a game until we master it and spend some free time reading and posting on these boards, we're a pretty small percentage of the market. Casual gamers, who will default to the normal difficulty and probably not change it, that find a game too difficult won't buy the sequel.

Worse, CDPR doesn't want this game to get "too hard" negative press before the console release. You think the CRPG crowd is a bunch of whiners? Sheeesh, the console kids (the literal children) that don't have the experience of the good old days of CRPGs will blow a gasket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061071726)
The only thing consistent about the whining, is how people are in denial due to their own lack of investment or flatout lack of skill.

I disagree, most the of "whining" I've read about on this site, gog.com forums and the general internet, is about a select few fights and the console interface. Oh and crashes, performance and bugs, but that's to be expected with any new release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061071726)
I learned to work with the system, as it was designed. Rather than working against it and adapt, why don't you try that?

Because the default controls for mouse and keyboard suck? Really, I think we're saying the same thing here, glass half full or half empty and all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061071726)
If you want some tips on how to handle those fights with ease, let me know. On normal, they're quite easy once you understand the nuances of the combat system. The dragon thing is annoying, but is basically a SINGLE timed move from building to building. The actual fight is a total cakewalk on normal.

If you don't, then understand that it's because you don't want to make the effort - and not because the game is unfair.

Thank you for the offer. I do my best to completely avoid any spoilers on my first playthrough of any RPG ( and then read every tip I can before playing again ). I, personally, haven't had too many problems since my first playthrough of the prologue (I also played it twice for the practice) but perhaps some others who are having problems might find help from your experience.

Oh, stumbled across this, thought it was pretty funny and relevant. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/5/25/witchin/

xSamhainx May 25th, 2011 23:34

is there such a thing as casual-elite?

joxer May 25th, 2011 23:40

Yup. Sims. ;)

DArtagnan May 26th, 2011 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyCarbon (Post 1061071743)
Geeze, DArt, you're usually a reasonable guy but that hurt my feelings ( don't worry, I'm a pretty tough guy, I'll get over it ).

Those were your own words.

I'm still quite reasonable, though ;)

Quote:

So…we're in a agreement then, the game does a poor job of explaining the combat to you, and throws you in expecting you to die multiple times until you get the hang of it. I previously likened it to being taught how to swim by being thrown in the water. Like I said, after I got a hang of the (IMO wonky) controls and learned the mechanics through trial and error I haven't had too many challenges since.
Agreement? No.

It would be a poor job of explaining the combat to you, if they were going for casual gamers. They use a very established approach, much like they do in Demon's Souls. That's another game known for its harsh difficulty, and in that game you will die over and over. It's not because they want to frustrate players - but because death is meant to be your teacher.

You may think the courtyard fight is tough, but it's completely trivial compared to fights later in the game. The reason you think fights later are much easier is…. Wait for it.

You learned something!

You can't "ease" players into a truly challenging game. Blizzard tried to do that with WoW - which was pretty easy and casual while levelling and then suddenly everything spiked. That's because true challenges WILL require an investment, and it WILL require a player who WANTS to make the effort.

Think about the true challenges you've faced in other games, or in life in general. You'll find that you almost invariably fail over and over - before learning the ropes.

That's actually an approach I'm really fond of. As long as they're FAIR about it. As long as you can learn from it, and then avoid death by playing smart.

Could their tutorial have been different? Sure.

But you must understand that the combat system isn't a simple one - like most modern CRPGs. It's actually quite complex in terms of the options available - and the abilities and items you can use to overcome challenges. It would be a sad thing to reveal the intricacies with hand-holding during the prologue. There's a sweet challenge to dealing with it in your own way, and as a player - develop your own approach within the system.

That's something The Witcher 2 does REALLY well. You can overcome fights in a variety of ways - suited for your own personal playstyle. I think it does this much better than the VAST majority of modern games.

Quote:

We'll just have to disagree here, I'm one of those people that doesn't automatically assume the developer is infallible. I have tried to provide constructive feedback about the parts I think could use improvement, not that the devs will likely read any of it but I find it cathartic.
Cute strawman. There's a difference between considering them infallible, and trusting that they actually playtested the game and had an idea of what they were doing with their combat system.

Quote:

I think CDPR would be pretty stupid if they don't care about casual gamers. As much as we all love these games enough to keep trying a game until we master it and spend some free time reading and posting on these boards, we're a pretty small percentage of the market. Casual gamers, who will default to the normal difficulty and probably not change it, that find a game too difficult won't buy the sequel.
They probably do care to some extent, and they'll most likely take a hit for this. But they're also trying something true to their hearts. That's what I respect and admire. They dare to challenge the casual gamer - and I'm hopeful that some of the whiners will come to appreciate the fruits of overcoming real challenges in a computer game.

Quote:

Worse, CDPR doesn't want this game to get "too hard" negative press before the console release. You think the CRPG crowd is a bunch of whiners? Sheeesh, the console kids (the literal children) that don't have the experience of the good old days of CRPGs will blow a gasket.
There are whiners everywhere. It's a very common human response to whine when your ass is kicked. There are many ways to respond. Personally, I really enjoy a challenge - if I consider it fair.

Since you think of me as reasonable, why don't you ask yourself how come I'm claiming the system is fair? Is it because I'm a deluded fanboy - or is it because I really think so.

If I really think so, then is there a chance you may have reacted too strongly?

Quote:

I disagree, most the of "whining" I've read about on this site, gog.com forums and the general internet, is about a select few fights and the console interface. Oh and crashes, performance and bugs, but that's to be expected with any new release.
I've read many responses to the game, and there are many who love the combat system and many who hate it. It means nothing. All I care about, really, is what I - personally - think of the combat system.

I found it refreshingly challenging - and VERY fair. That's because I can now play on hard - and only very rarely die. That's because I really invested in the game, and trusted in the developers. There was just something about the experience as a whole - that seemed to suggest the people behind it really cared about what they were doing.


Quote:

Because the default controls for mouse and keyboard suck? Really, I think we're saying the same thing here, glass half full or half empty and all that.
I don't think we're saying the same thing. But we're probably responding differently to the same thing. I find the controls very comfortable - especially the combat controls. The UI in general has some issues - but not really serious ones, to my mind.

Quote:

Thank you for the offer. I do my best to completely avoid any spoilers on my first playthrough of any RPG ( and then read every tip I can before playing again ). I, personally, haven't had too many problems since my first playthrough of the prologue (I also played it twice for the practice) but perhaps some others who are having problems might find help from your experience.
So, now that you can play without many problems - you still insist that the system is bad and it's just you who're compensating for the flaws?


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