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-   -   Skyrim - Five Lessons for Fallout 4 (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15540)

Dhruin November 30th, 2011 12:31

Skyrim - Five Lessons for Fallout 4
 
Five Lessons Fallout 4 Can Learn From Skyrim is a new article at IGN and covers some obvious points, though I vehemently disagree with their suggestion of including Skyrim's "organic" skill progression system:
Quote:

RPG veterans are all too familiar with the typical conventions of leveling. In many JRPGs, for instance, you earn experience in battle and level-up automatically, with all of your statistics taking some sort of boost regardless of how useful they happen to be to the character in question. A game like Bethesda's Fallout 3 stepped things up for the gamer by giving them a high degree of customization, continuing an established trend for the series with an existing formula. Leveling had its own perks, of course, but players could associate skill points to build up any statistic they wanted whether or not it was actually being used.
This system works fine, and in its own way it's quite rewarding. The thing is, Skyrim's leveling methodology is something Bethesda should take a close look at when it develops Fallout 4. Skyrim's leveling is, at its core, rather basic. You can only upgrade one of three statistics when you level-up. But then, things get much more complicated as you associate a very finite amount of skill points to impressive skill trees that require you to choose your course carefully. You simply cannot master everything in the game. Better yet, individual skills level up as you use them, not the other way around, which feels more organic and allows you to better embody the character you're playing as.
While we're on Skyrim, just about every site on the 'net is noting a Dragon Shout iOS app that offers a map and other features. It isn't official and I hesitate to recommend something that might just be a cash-in on someone else's work, so caveat emptor.
More information.

ikbenrichard November 30th, 2011 12:31

The perk system in skyrim is actually fine by me. I like it. Useally iam quite sceptical but this time, i think, they did good.

JDR13 November 30th, 2011 12:45

Don't know about Skyrim, but the perk system in FO3 was completely overpowered imo. Getting a new perk at every level-up was ridiculous.

FO:NV was more balanced in that regard with the single perk every 2 levels. I'd like FO4 to be more like that, or even go back to the FO 1&2 system of one perk every 3 levels.

Odrid November 30th, 2011 15:06

You still get 1 perk per level, like in FO3, but the system works much better, because there's more balance in the perks and it prevents the player to become overpowered and also, because there are many perks per skill, you can't turn into a "Jack-of-all-trades". You must choose your perks more carefully.

The only problem I have, is that some skill trees are quite pointless (example: lockpicking), while other are overpowered (like enchanting, which is a must for any type of character)

Kefka November 30th, 2011 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061109132)
Don't know about Skyrim, but the perk system in FO3 was completely overpowered imo. Getting a new perk at every level-up was ridiculous.

FO:NV was more balanced in that regard with the single perk every 2 levels. I'd like FO4 to be more like that, or even go back to the FO 1&2 system of one perk every 3 levels.

I used a one perk per level mod, having one every other is terrible game design. Leveling up is suppose to be fun, not fun every other level. They should have just made the perks a little weaking or slow down leveling not do perk every other level. Feel real bad for the console players over that terrible decision.

Thrasher November 30th, 2011 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odrid (Post 1061109145)
other are overpowered (like enchanting, which is a must for any type of character)

"a must"? SO being overpowered is a must? Sounds very boring.

BTW, my sneaker is NOT leveling enchanting except through soul gem recharging. If my character becomes unviable because of this, then I'd say the balancing is badly broken.

Asdraguuhl November 30th, 2011 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kefka (Post 1061109208)
I used a one perk per level mod, having one every other is terrible game design. Leveling up is suppose to be fun, not fun every other level. They should have just made the perks a little weaking or slow down leveling not do perk every other level. Feel real bad for the console players over that terrible decision.

A perk every 2 levels in FO:NV is NOT a bad design decision and I agree with JDR13. In FO1&2, you got a perk every 3 levels hence they were "scarce" and therefore more valuable making you choose wisely making a more unique character. The "normal" levelling was done through the skill point distribution which was indeed a complete joke in F03 as you would eventually become an "ace-of-all-trades".

IMO, part of the fun of character development is to have strengths AND weaknesses leading to a specific playing style.

crpgnut November 30th, 2011 19:57

Well, at 70 perk points in a game with 280, you're not going to get anywhere near all of them. The average gamer is finishing around level 30, (this is just grabbed from my personal impressions reading the various forums), so they could replay 9 times and not get them all. Many perks will be chosen in every game too, so the replay factor will go up. I can't imagine playing the game without some enchanting, alchemy, and smithing, so I'll always burn "some" perk points in those 3 trees. Reaching 100 in all skills is possible though, so that's definitely something that could be tweaked somehow.

wolfgrimdark November 30th, 2011 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odrid (Post 1061109145)
Y
The only problem I have, is that some skill trees are quite pointless (example: lockpicking), while other are overpowered (like enchanting, which is a must for any type of character)

A must? Why is that? Maybe for you it is. I neither enchant nor conjure as I consider both on the dark side since they deal with enslavement of other beings as well as trafficking in souls.

I certainly haven't had any problems in the game by limiting myself in that regard.

Any must is purely in your own play style.

Thrasher November 30th, 2011 20:45

FWIW, I'm finding the perk and leveling system very balanced for my sneaker at adept/default difficulty at level 30. He's spread a lot of skill points into sneak, one handed, archery, illusion, light-armored, and (inadvertently, I may add) lockpicking and speech. I've spent all my perks in sneak, one-handed, archery, and illusion. This character has lots of other perks he qualifies for, but doesn't have the levels to spend, so I think it's just fine.

Now, if you play a build more focused on fewer skills (in particular smithing and enchanting), the balance could shift towards overpowered.

crpgnut November 30th, 2011 21:39

I wish I had the willpower to play as you do, Wolf. I love the crafting stuff though. I don't falsely boost my skills to get uber stuff though. I limit myself to crafting the equal of what I find. I don't create fortify enchant or smithing because that can unbalance the game fast. I DO use those potions if I find them though :) A 20% boost for 30 seconds is generally only long enough to enchant one or two items and those potions seem pretty rare.

BillSeurer November 30th, 2011 21:45

The skills that you can use at your whim with no real negative effects are easy to abuse. A simple thing that while it wouldn't completely fix the problem would reduce it would be to not award experience or reward reduced experience for trivial things once your skils is high. So when your skill is 50 in smithing you don't advance unless you are making or improving at least orcish or elvish equipment or something. And have it so that you have to go through all the steps to advance your equipment not one dagger plus one ingot gives a legendary iron dagger. Even with that you have to be careful; it is quite easy to get hundreds of dwarven ingots in the game right now for free for example.

CountChocula November 30th, 2011 22:28

After playing about 200 hours on the "master" setting and reaching level 44, I'm thinking for my next playthrough I will continue to practice either Smithing, Enchanting or Alchemy, but certainly not all three.

When you are highly skilled at all three of these, you end up with items that are a bit overpowered IMO.

human_male November 30th, 2011 22:45

I think the Fallout levelling system (the SPECIAL stats and assigning points) is a core feature of the Fallout games and has been from the beginning and I wouldn't like to see that changed. I'd also like to see it go back to a perk every three levels.

wolfgrimdark November 30th, 2011 23:04

I really enjoyed SPECIAL. I like perks often enough to look forward to them but not so many they feel common or superficial. I like FNV and Skyrim as far as perks. One is less common the other limited by so many choices. Course I like to have something to do each level … and just selecting MAGIC HEALTH STAMINA doesn't really cut it :-) so having a perk each level is nice.

When it comes to skills in Skyrim I use Alchemy but pretty much as it happens. Course I am a nature/ranger boy so I am happy to use materials I find as I go. On the other hand I am not tearing off butterfly wings either. So depending on the ingrediants I may or may not be making all potions. Again I usually wrap things around the ethos of my character. That way I get some cool potions but I don't use alchemy as a "power" technique. Instead I use what I learn as part of my exploring and natural learning process.

Course I also don't really have patience to track tons of recipes and grind through things :-)

Enchanting/Conjuring I already mentioned are off the list. If I find an artificact I will use it (its foolish to let things go to waste, my Ranger is practical after all) but won't recharge it. If it seems really evil I try to store it some place safe or sell it to a smith and pretend I asked him to melt it down.

Smithing is fun but again I pretty much just work with the things I find as I find them. I may occasionaly look for something if it was something I saw while working on an item (like .. "oh I need one more of this ingot to finsish honing this weapon") but I don't really collect or horde much.

Keep in mind I also play on lower difficulty because of some of these "handicaps" but I keep it at whatever is challenging, may require some reloads in a fight but in general lets me survive if I play smart.

While rambling here … I love Kyenes Shout. It makes wild animals non-aggressive. IT works great for my ranger and whenever I am exploring outside I keep it hot keyed for those wolves, bears, and kitties.

crpgnut December 1st, 2011 16:44

Me too, wolf. I sometimes kill them if I'm needing ingredients, but most of the time I just kyne them and keep on going. It's too bad you can't do anything at all from horseback. It makes the horse 100% useless. If you could pick ingredients or shout, then riding the horse might make some sense. Most companions can't keep up with it either. It seems the dogs can though.

Ovenall December 1st, 2011 18:03

I've only put in around 30 hours and I'm doing smithing but not enchanting. I'm going to only find or buy magic items. Not sure how well this will pan out, but it's my plan. I'm really trying to keep from being a jack of all trades.

Anyone have success doing this?

Thrasher December 1st, 2011 18:37

I'm doing fine without enchanting or alchemy (or much smithing, for that matter) at level 32 on Adept difficulty level. My ace in the hole is illusion magic I use to get out of near death situations. :)

crpgnut December 1st, 2011 22:41

@Ovenall:

Oh yeah. I completely suck with weapons, can't conjure even a frost atronach, can't pickpocket worth a crap. My healing is barely adequate. I think if I level all the way to 70, I'll have many skills maxed but probably still suck with weapons and some thief skills. There's so much to do, that I haven't felt compelled to continue the main quest and I haven't started imperial/stormcloaks, thieves, or Dark Brotherhood. I'll probably never play DB. It's not my thing.

My plan is to slowly improve alteration and restoration and the other magic schools. I want to be primarily a mage, and earn the Archmage title that I was anointed with so early. I totally agree with folks who think it's silly to become the guild leader in a place where you have no skill. I lead the companions and I can't wield a butter knife correctly :)

BillSeurer December 1st, 2011 23:16

I did a basic orc fighter and didn't have much trouble with no alchemy or enchanting at all and only some smithing. At the end of that playthrough I was using orcish armor and a skyforge steel greatsword. I sometimes swapped on some other piece of armor to provide specific protection but mostly just left it alone.


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