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-   -   Racism is natural, anti racism is not (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17572)

Damian Mahadevan July 13th, 2012 10:42

Racism is natural, anti racism is not
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq1PDYB1G1U

•Younger children spend more time staring at different races from their own when presented with photographs
•Toddlers notice race more than gender
•Kids pick out friends based on skin color

•Kids’ brains categorize world and assume people that look like them are more similar to them
•Conversations about race are difficult for parents
•Why point race out if it doesn’t matter? (Everyone is equal) But science says in absence of communication, kids will make errors.
•Self-segregation at schools goes up as school diversity goes up


points ripped from:
http://scienceiscool25.blogspot.com….11/racism.html

So what do you think about parents teaching their kids and when is it too much? Is it the same as sexism to some extent? I assume so.

DArtagnan July 13th, 2012 10:45

Ignorance is natural - and racism is about ignorance.

It's impossible to overcome ignorance, but you can overcome racism - by focusing on that particular area of ignorance.

Essentially, our capacity is limited - regardless of our intentions. The utilitarian approach is to focus on those areas that bring the greatest amount of harm. I'd say racism qualifies - and as such, I think we should do what we can to educate about how racism harms us all in the long-term.

Damian Mahadevan July 13th, 2012 10:56

But at what point is it reverse racism?

Also i kind of disagree with ignorance and racism being in the same boat. Ignorance can be overcome when learning about a particualr subject, while racism is not.

For example in Australia we have aboriginals, who never take care of their houses, put all sorts of junk in their front lawn and put bonfires in the back. It is very hard not to become racist when exposed to that. How does one become neutral though? Is it learning that it ios culture that makes them behave in such a way?

DArtagnan July 13th, 2012 11:11

Reverse racism? I don't follow.

They're not exactly in the same boat, but racism follows from ignorance.

I'm not sure what you mean by becoming racist because other people live their lives in a way that's not familiar or desirable to you. I don't see the problem.

I think the first step to overcoming racism is to realise that there is no established right way to live or think. All human beings are essentially the same across races - and our culture/environment determines our differences, beyond the physical distinctions.

So, once you realise that your own culture and environment is one among thousands - and your own response to your culture and environment is one among billions - it follows logically that your "way" is not the only way. Something I consider so blatantly obvious that I have a hard time not responding negatively to people who don't understand this and want to tell others they're wrong in how they live. There is no choice involved in where you're born and the first years of your life are the most essential for shaping your mind and outlook - and we have no choice there either.

But there are cases when different cultures lead to conflict - and this will invariably lead to harm. A culture that can't co-exist without bringing harm to others is unacceptable from the mindset of the hedonistic utilitarian (someone like myself - though I dislike labels) - and as such, I think we must work at it constantly.

That's not racism, though. That's a pragmatic response to reality. Harm - unless it brings more combined benefit - is not acceptable.

Alrik Fassbauer July 13th, 2012 11:13

Are you trying to troll here ?

It is emminent that different cultures have their different standards.

No "normal" German would like to live in Bangkok, for example, I mean in the river sides, because "normal" Germans are just not used to that high amount of - in their eyes - dirty water.

DArtagnan July 13th, 2012 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer (Post 1061152771)
Are you trying to troll here ?

It is emminent that different cultures have their different standards.

No "normal" German would like to live in Bangkok, for example, I mean in the river sides, because "normal" Germans are just not used to that high amount of - in their eyes - dirty water.

Who are you speaking to, and could you rephrase?

Damian Mahadevan July 13th, 2012 11:34

Reverse racism to me is like when you put down your own race.

I agree with what you said after tha except for cultures causing harm to others. In which case i am not sure. I think you are referring to how a culture tries to overtake another culture like for example Islam like how it tries to use thier own laws in another country for example but will not allow another law in their own.

DArtagnan July 13th, 2012 11:45

Islam is a religion - and there are many ways to integrate religion into cultures and your own life. Just like the case is with Christianity.

So, I'm not talking about religion - but how some cultures are not flexible enough to allow other cultures. I'm not going to mention any specific examples, because I do believe there's too much misinformation regarding this topic - and I have to respond on a case by case basis.

Suffice it to say that IF a culture exists that will NOT allow other cultures - then it's not an acceptable culture, in my mind.

JDR13 July 13th, 2012 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061152770)
I'm not sure what you mean by becoming racist because other people live their lives in a way that's not familiar or desirable to you. I don't see the problem.

I think the problem arises when those lifestyles actually affect you. He mentions Aboriginals not taking care of their houses which is their choice… that's fine if they live in another area, but if they happen to live next door to you and drive down your property value because of the way they live, then you might get a bit annoyed.

DArtagnan July 13th, 2012 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061152781)
I think the problem arises when those lifestyles actually affect you. He mentions Aboriginals not taking care of their houses which is their choice… that's fine if they live in another area, but if they happen to live next door to you and drive down your property value because of the way they live, then you tend to get annoyed.

I get annoyed every day by people around me, but that's not about race. That's about how human beings behave in general.

As for cultures that behave in a way that annoys you - I can certainly agree with that, but that has nothing to do with their genetic make-up. That's cultural conditioning - and you can rest assured it goes both ways.

JemyM July 13th, 2012 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan (Post 1061152765)
• Younger children spend more time staring at different races from their own when presented with photographs
• Toddlers notice race more than gender
• Kids pick out friends based on skin color
• Kids’ brains categorize world and assume people that look like them are more similar to them

None of these are racist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan (Post 1061152765)
• Conversations about race are difficult for parents

Depends on the parent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan (Post 1061152765)
• Why point race out if it doesn’t matter? (Everyone is equal) But science says in absence of communication, kids will make errors.

Because we note differences. Any stark difference will be noted, including hair color, outstanding birthmarks and glasses. When we are young we spot differences all the time. In time we learn that most differences we spot aren't important and thus we ignore them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan (Post 1061152765)
• Self-segregation at schools goes up as school diversity goes up

What categories people categorize themselves to are different in each person. Some sort by gender, others by race, but most sort themselves on interests and hobbies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan (Post 1061152765)
points ripped from:
http://scienceiscool25.blogspot.com….11/racism.html

So what do you think about parents teaching their kids and when is it too much? Is it the same as sexism to some extent? I assume so.

Teaching a child to disregard from meaningless attributes is part of a good upbringing as it helps the child to form better judgements. It's also neccessary for the modern society to function as racism is deviant and dysfunctional.

JemyM July 13th, 2012 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian Mahadevan (Post 1061152768)
But at what point is it reverse racism?

"Reverse Racism" have no attachment to reality. It's in itself racist to think that some groups can be racists and others can't.

JDR13 July 13th, 2012 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061152782)
I get annoyed every day by people around me, but that's not about race. That's about how human beings behave in general.

As for cultures that behave in a way that annoys you - I can certainly agree with that, but that has nothing to do with their genetic make-up. That's cultural conditioning - and you can rest assured it goes both ways.

I'm not sure how genetics entered the conversation.. I was just speculating on Damian's point of view.

I not implying that race should justify that feeling. I would be just as annoyed if it was a group of beautiful blond-haired, blue-eyed woman living next door to me and trashing their house and yard.

Annoyed… but intrigued. ;)

DArtagnan July 13th, 2012 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061152788)
I'm not sure how genetics entered the conversation.. I was just speculating on Damian's point of view.

The conversation was about racism - and Damian brought up these people as an example. I'm just trying to point out that blaming the race for what the culture does is a primary factor in how everything ties into ignorance.

Quote:

I not implying that race should justify that feeling. I would be just as annoyed if it was a group of beautiful blond-haired, blue-eyed woman living next door to me and trashing their house and yard.
Not to get all pedantic, but I consider all feelings justified.

I'm very, very easy to annoy - and as such, I can very easily sympathise with that feeling. But it's key to separate what's racial and what's cultural - because that will lead to less racism.

Quote:

Annoyed… but intrigued. ;)
Yeah, I might be more inclined to teach them about "proper" behavior ;)

Biff The Understudy July 13th, 2012 12:59

The problem with racism i think has to do with how we evolved as a species. Evolutionists theorize that we evolved in small bands of hunter-gatherers(tribes) with a strong cohesion within the group and an equally strong enmity to anyone outside it. With our fellow in-group members we are often cooperative and altruistic. Unfortunately the downside to this pro-social bonding is that we are also quite tribal and xenophobic to out-group members.
Even in todays society we usually see the less evolved individuals join tribes in the form of gangs, cults and various religious or psudo political institutions wich all too commonly "keep to their own kind".
This natural tendency to sort people into Within-Group=Good and outside-Group=Bad is shaped by culture and possibly genetic memory so that everyone implicitly accepts the cultural association, which includes additional prejudices.
The less someone resembles those of your in-group the more hostile you are programmed to react.
Most people do not consider themselves racist and it is accepted that you'd have to be insane, intoxicated or otherwise mentally impaired to publicly utter racist remarks in today's society.
However a test developed by Harward scientists called the Implicid Association Test, which asks subjects to pair words and concepts indicates that unconsciously most of us are infact racist.
(Link to said test: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit)
I believe it is simply part of our genetic makeup to instinctively view anyone different as a potential threat and a good upbringing is required to rectify that.

DArtagnan July 13th, 2012 13:02

Quote:

Even in todays society we usually see the less evolved individuals join tribes in the form of gangs, cults and various religious or psudo political institutions wich all too commonly "keep to their own kind".
That's a pretty interesting statement. Do you stand by it, or do you wish to rephrase?

ChienAboyeur July 13th, 2012 13:04

The standards in the OP are the same as when it comes to RPGs. The two might be connected.

What is the link between most of the behaviours as they are depicted and racism?

This is more things of those newly built countries, 18th, 19th built countries that included racism as a very important factor in their society development.
In older countries, too much contradictory evidences.

Racism in those countries was much more important than cultural differences and it sticks.

For example, in France, kids would pick up friends from similar background. It could mean that kids from a same region would pick other kids from the same region as friends. How a kid from Paris choosing a kid from Paris over a kid from Toulouse is racism?

Even more, as there were rural migration, kids whose grand parents moved to a big city would choose to hang around with kids from the same region.

For example, at start of the 20th century, bretons migrated to Paris.

And when put together, kids who are growing up in Brittany right now, prefer to hang out with other kids growing up in Brittany right now, while kids with a breton ancestry who are growing in Paris prefer to hang with kids with a breton ancestry growing up in Paris.

How can it be connected with racism?

The OP conclusions are the results of the very fact that for those newly built countries, racism has been a prevailing structuring force over other some other possible structuring forces.

ChienAboyeur July 13th, 2012 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biff The Understudy (Post 1061152791)
The problem with racism i think has to do with how we evolved as a species. Evolutionists theorize that we evolved in small bands of hunter-gatherers(tribes) with a strong cohesion within the group and an equally strong enmity to anyone outside it. With our fellow in-group members we are often cooperative and altruistic. Unfortunately the downside to this pro-social bonding is that we are also quite tribal and xenophobic to out-group members.
Even in todays society we usually see the less evolved individuals join tribes in the form of gangs, cults and various religious or psudo political institutions wich all too commonly "keep to their own kind".
This natural tendency to sort people into Within-Group=Good and outside-Group=Bad is shaped by culture and possibly genetic memory so that everyone implicitly accepts the cultural association, which includes additional prejudices.
The less someone resembles those of your in-group the more hostile you are programmed to react.
Most people do not consider themselves racist and it is accepted that you'd have to be insane, intoxicated or otherwise mentally impaired to publicly utter racist remarks in today's society.
However a test developed by Harward scientists called the Implicid Association Test, which asks subjects to pair words and concepts indicates that unconsciously most of us are infact racist.
(Link to said test: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit)
I believe it is simply part of our genetic makeup to instinctively view anyone different as a potential threat and a good upbringing is required to rectify that.

Xenophobia, ethnocentrism are not racism.

Even though it has to be connected with the RPG definition situation, when everything and anything has to a RPG. So everything and anything can be racism.

badmofo July 13th, 2012 13:16

Ahh racism - everyone does it, but most know they shouldn't. We'll never be rid of it though, it's one of many ugly human traits.

We're just animals after all.

As for the Australian Aborigines Damian - I wouldn't want people living next to me who trash their house and yell all night long either (and oh my can they yell!), but you have to admit that as a Country we have treated Aboriginals horribly. And we're still doing it! It's easy to say "Stay in school. Stop abusing alcohol. Get yourself a job". But the average Australian is born into a world where alcohol abuse, etc is unacceptable. For some people it's all they've ever known.

JDR13 July 13th, 2012 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061152790)
Not to get all pedantic, but I consider all feelings justified.

I'm very, very easy to annoy - and as such, I can very easily sympathise with that feeling. But it's key to separate what's racial and what's cultural - because that will lead to less racism.

Not quite sure I understand you there. Neither race or culture should be a justification in that example. It should be only the act itself that annoys him, not what race or culture they are. He seems to be making a general connection between those acts and their race though.

Not that I haven't been guilty of that in the past. If certain things are prevalent among a certain people, it can sometimes be hard not to generalize.


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