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-   -   Spiderweb Games - Sale on Steam (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18860)

Myrthos December 10th, 2012 19:14

Spiderweb Games - Sale on Steam
 
You can now buy 11 games from Spiderweb in one bargain atSteam. The games that are part of this pack are:
  • Avadon: The Black Fortress
  • Avernum 4
  • Avernum 5
  • Avernum 6
  • Avernum: Escape From the Pit
  • Geneforge 1
  • Geneforge 2
  • Geneforge 3
  • Geneforge 4: Rebellion
  • Geneforge 5: Overthrow
  • Nethergate: Resurrection
More information.

Thaurin December 10th, 2012 19:14

Speaking of Steam, is Steam down? I haven't been able to start my client in two days after I've been away for a week and there was a Steam update…

Gorath December 10th, 2012 19:33

No, Steam is online.

Kordanor December 10th, 2012 19:45

While on the one hand I'd like to support Spiderweb, on the other hand I want to "warn" anyone here who is interested in these games:

First, this is not really a sale at all, it is just a bundle.

Besides that, Avadon and Avernum: Escape From the Pit are actually the only "newer" games and have a steam adaption and more recent graphics (which are still really bad). But the other games are even far worse (including the alread bad sound).
That said, I played Avadon and Avernum EFtP and these are great games and also the older games probably have a great story but I hardly played these, these are just below my tolerance.

So for anyone interested I'd highly recommend to not buy the bundle and just buy Avernum: Escape From the Pit instead, which I'd consider my favorite RPG of this year.
If you want more, grab Avadon, which is far more limited, but is also really good.
And if you finished both of these games and still want more (after more than 150-200h) you can consider buying the other games. You won't lose much if you don't buy the bundle.

That said, the weakest point of Avernum are not the graphics but the background sound (looped noises). My personal suggestion in this matter: Start a Nox Arcana playlist in the background. This music fits quite well to the game. A very short playlist I created where you can get a taste: Link

Myrkrel December 10th, 2012 21:05

I'm expecting that the true bargain on this bundle will appear during the upcoming Steam winter sale.

fadedc December 10th, 2012 21:29

I'd agree that buying all of these at once is probably overkill, especially if there isn't much of a discount. The quality ranges wildly between titles, and there is enough similarlity between titles (especially geneforge) that you'd probably have a severe repittion overdose if you played too many spiderweb games back to back.

Personally though I wouldn't recomend Escape from the Pit to someone who was only going to play a couple spiderweb games. I think Avernum 5 and 6 were probably the strongest games. Avadon was also a fine game and it's probably worthwhile to play through exactly 1 geneforge game (maybe no. 3?). But I don't care about the graphics/sound, so that may influence me a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kordanor (Post 1061175018)
While on the one hand I'd like to support Spiderweb, on the other hand I want to "warn" anyone here who is interested in these games:

First, this is not really a sale at all, it is just a bundle.

Besides that, Avadon and Avernum: Escape From the Pit are actually the only "newer" games and have a steam adaption and more recent graphics (which are still really bad). But the other games are even far worse (including the alread bad sound).
That said, I played Avadon and Avernum EFtP and these are great games and also the older games probably have a great story but I hardly played these, these are just below my tolerance.

So for anyone interested I'd highly recommend to not buy the bundle and just buy Avernum: Escape From the Pit instead, which I'd consider my favorite RPG of this year.
If you want more, grab Avadon, which is far more limited, but is also really good.
And if you finished both of these games and still want more (after more than 150-200h) you can consider buying the other games. You won't lose much if you don't buy the bundle.

That said, the weakest point of Avernum are not the graphics but the background sound (looped noises). My personal suggestion in this matter: Start a Nox Arcana playlist in the background. This music fits quite well to the game. A very short playlist I created where you can get a taste: Link


Kordanor December 10th, 2012 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by fadedc (Post 1061175039)
Personally though I wouldn't recomend Escape from the Pit to someone who was only going to play a couple spiderweb games. I think Avernum 5 and 6 were probably the strongest games. Avadon was also a fine game and it's probably worthwhile to play through exactly 1 geneforge game (maybe no. 3?). But I don't care about the graphics/sound, so that may influence me a bit.

Well, you can only buy geneforge in a bundle itself (1-5). I only found the 5th "playable" at all, as the graphics and also the sound really killed it for me in the previous ones, especially the first 3.

I can't really judge Avernum 5 and 6, but I found Escape from the Pit extremely well due to it's completely open world, strong writing, tons of content, a couple of decisions, different endings (actually you have 3 end-goals and multiple choices for these), and the high difficulty. The only thing I can say in comparison to Avernum5/6 is that it has better graphics. Though due to the strange drawings for skills it still looks a bit less professional than Avadon.
Avadon on the other hand has a little "deeper" story, but it's quite linear (Zone1->Zone2->Companion Mission->Zone3->…) a bit like Mass Effect2 and I found the last part (after the warning that you can't go back) quite bad. Also content wise, considering the time I played these games, Avernum is about 50% bigger than Avadon.

holeraw December 10th, 2012 22:01

I don't think that many people will have the stamina to play 11 spiderweb games back to back but implying that >€30 for all of them isn't a good deal doesn't make much sense.
Of course if you only want one or two then it doesn't make sense to buy the lot either.

Thrasher December 10th, 2012 22:52

I'd focus on the Geneforge series (#5 in particular) for the unique setting and gameplay as a shifter class and the nifty set of faction interactions. Plus it's a relatively open world.

fadedc December 10th, 2012 23:33

Yeah that was the big downside to Avadon, it had a compelling story, but it was missing the exploration that is present in other Spiderweb games. Escape from the Pit was the other way around, you have an extremely open world with a ton of freedom, probably the most of any spiderweb game, but the story often feels like more of an afterthought.

Part of the reason Avernum 5 and 6 were so good, was that they managed to do a good job with the both the story and with giving you a reasonably open world to explore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kordanor (Post 1061175043)
Avadon on the other hand has a little "deeper" story, but it's quite linear (Zone1->Zone2->Companion Mission->Zone3->…) a bit like Mass Effect2 and I found the last part (after the warning that you can't go back) quite bad. Also content wise, considering the time I played these games, Avernum is about 50% bigger than Avadon.


Turjan December 11th, 2012 00:03

Most of these games have been part of indie bundles, like the Avernum 5-6, the 5 Geneforges, or Avadon, together with other games for altogether $1 or slightly above that. So no, no sale. The only games I haven't seen going for a few cents were Avernum: Escape from the Pit and Nethergate: Resurrection.

Thaurin December 11th, 2012 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorath (Post 1061175016)
No, Steam is online.

Well, it's working now… guess it was a temporary problem. The forums have been down for a while too for upgrades they were doing.

ToddMcF2002 December 11th, 2012 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kordanor (Post 1061175018)
While on the one hand I'd like to support Spiderweb, on the other hand I want to "warn" anyone here who is interested in these games:

First, this is not really a sale at all, it is just a bundle.

Besides that, Avadon and Avernum: Escape From the Pit are actually the only "newer" games and have a steam adaption and more recent graphics (which are still really bad). But the other games are even far worse (including the alread bad sound).
That said, I played Avadon and Avernum EFtP and these are great games and also the older games probably have a great story but I hardly played these, these are just below my tolerance.

So for anyone interested I'd highly recommend to not buy the bundle and just buy Avernum: Escape From the Pit instead, which I'd consider my favorite RPG of this year.
If you want more, grab Avadon, which is far more limited, but is also really good.
And if you finished both of these games and still want more (after more than 150-200h) you can consider buying the other games. You won't lose much if you don't buy the bundle.

That said, the weakest point of Avernum are not the graphics but the background sound (looped noises). My personal suggestion in this matter: Start a Nox Arcana playlist in the background. This music fits quite well to the game. A very short playlist I created where you can get a taste: Link

So you pass judgement on all these older games and yet admit you've barely played them as they are 'beneath' your graphical standards? Thanks for the 'warning'. Good think you highlighted that real critical sound loop point.

Kordanor December 11th, 2012 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002 (Post 1061175066)
So you pass judgement on all these older games and yet admit you've barely played them as they are 'beneath' your graphical standards? Thanks for the 'warning'. Good think you highlighted that real critical sound loop point.

Personally for me Avernum and Avadon are just "above" the minimum in terms of quality of graphics and production value. Two of my friends on steam checked out Avadon and didn't get warm with it and this is also represented by the steam achievements.
And even I was shocked by the production values of the older geneforge titles.
Of course this point is not valid for all people and if you don't think it'll bother you, go ahead. Just be warned that it's not just looking and sounding old but bad. Like if you compare the cracking sound noises from Ishar from Silmarils with the nice tunes of the Westwood games like Eye of the Beholder.

I'd already consider myself as minority coping with Avernum EFTP and Avadon, but as I said - if you think you don't have problems with the "production values" of these games, go ahead. Certainly wouldn't stop you in supporting spiderweb.

I am eagerly waiting for their next release!

darkling December 11th, 2012 08:04

This big pack will probably be on sale for something like $10 during the winter sale, which starts on the 20th.


Hold off.

ToddMcF2002 December 11th, 2012 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kordanor (Post 1061175082)
Personally for me Avernum and Avadon are just "above" the minimum in terms of quality of graphics and production value. Two of my friends on steam checked out Avadon and didn't get warm with it and this is also represented by the steam achievements.
And even I was shocked by the production values of the older geneforge titles.
Of course this point is not valid for all people and if you don't think it'll bother you, go ahead. Just be warned that it's not just looking and sounding old but bad. Like if you compare the cracking sound noises from Ishar from Silmarils with the nice tunes of the Westwood games like Eye of the Beholder.

I'd already consider myself as minority coping with Avernum EFTP and Avadon, but as I said - if you think you don't have problems with the "production values" of these games, go ahead. Certainly wouldn't stop you in supporting spiderweb.

I am eagerly waiting for their next release!

Having played Geneforge 1-4, Avadon and parts of the new Escape from the Pit I have a very different perspective. For example - Avadon and Pit do not allow individual character movement outside of combat. That completely kills tactical advantage, eliminates scout ahead and ambush capability. Given the quantity of combat in these games that's a critical difference. The stories for both titles have significantly less depth than any of the Geneforge titles. The Geneforge graphics are dated but the core gameplay mechanics, which are far more important, are superior.

You are entitled to your opinion of course. I simply don't think you are doing people the service you think you are.

cptbarkey December 11th, 2012 19:54

judgement should be held for games like this.

judgement should not be held back for pathetic games like dragon age 2 and mass effect 3.

:)

regomar December 11th, 2012 21:57

Obviously those games aren't for you. But the graphics aren't any worse than the games I played when I was a kid. I LOVE Geneforge, ESPECIALLY the first three and the fact that you are judging them based on graphics and lack of epic sound rather than story and gameplay mechanics pretty much says it all about you and how utterly invalid your opinion on indie games is. Nobody needs you to 'warn' them. The graphics are clearly visible in the screenshots on the store page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kordanor (Post 1061175082)
Personally for me Avernum and Avadon are just "above" the minimum in terms of quality of graphics and production value. Two of my friends on steam checked out Avadon and didn't get warm with it and this is also represented by the steam achievements.
And even I was shocked by the production values of the older geneforge titles.
Of course this point is not valid for all people and if you don't think it'll bother you, go ahead. Just be warned that it's not just looking and sounding old but bad. Like if you compare the cracking sound noises from Ishar from Silmarils with the nice tunes of the Westwood games like Eye of the Beholder.

I'd already consider myself as minority coping with Avernum EFTP and Avadon, but as I said - if you think you don't have problems with the "production values" of these games, go ahead. Certainly wouldn't stop you in supporting spiderweb.

I am eagerly waiting for their next release!


Kordanor December 11th, 2012 23:01

I don't get where this hate is coming from. Well, probably because I said anything bad at all about a game which you love.

And that is probably also why you exaggerate and claim that I miss "epic sound".
Actually I said that before is that it was ok for me to disable sound in Avernum and turn on exterior music instead. And I also said that I have no problems with sound like in Eye of the Beholder.

The games you played when you grew up are old. But old does not mean low production value. And the low production value is clearly visible on all of the Spiderweb games, even the newest where is main title is actually a free available track (maybe you recognize the "similarity" in these videos)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r49_wtnc2Go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U7wqQPvXHs
And soundwise you realize this at every corner of the game and moreso in the older Geneforge titles, where you can hear the "background noise" of each audio file as it sounds like someone accidently activated his microphone and kept it running during the whole time.

Yes, the screenshots are visible in the store page. But that means that Geneforge1 has the same quality of graphics as Avernum does, doesn't it?
Well, one thing is, that you can't really say from there that the resolution of the older games is lower than the new ones (1680x1050 (Avernum) vs 800x600(Geneforge) actually makes a big difference). In addition the production value of the graphics isn't apparent either.

Would you still play it if it was monochrom with a resolution of 320*200 due to the game mechanics and the story?

The game mechanics arent so perfect either. As Todd pointed out in Avadon for example you can't position your characters manually. I didn't even realized this as a particular negative point as the whole controls in combat are quite screwed. Multiple clicks for a single spell every time because the hotbar is too small is one thing. But a Combat AI where your characters always take the direct path, even if it's the worst one, is another story. I mean, you get used to it after some hours, and instead of moving your Character from A to B you make him run at C before so that he takes the correct path to B within combat.
I guess you should take off your rose-tinted glasses and be a little more realistic.

It's fine if you love the game.
All I am saying is, that the older titles are below what people might initially expect.
And that there is no point in buying the bundle right now except of supporting spiderweb. Even if you want to play all games you are better off with buying one game and keep playing it, till the other ones are on steam sales which will probably be in a couple of weeks anyways.

And to back this up, just take a look at these pages:

http://steamcommunity.com/stats/Avadon/achievements
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/Aver…t/achievements

What these lists are telling us, is that more than 63% of all people who wanted to give Avadon a try did not make it through the first 3 hours or so.
Something similar goes for Avernum. 20% stopped within the first hour. And 65% didn't finish the first "real" quest (which takes a couple of hours).

This means that lots of people who bought these games, aware of the screenshots and the trailers, were pushed away by it anyways. And as I sad I have two friends where exactly this happened.
Of course these statistics aren't 100% accurate and people reading this page might cope with a bit more (/less).

But we are talking about the new games here, with the old ones the discrepancy will be even much higher.

holeraw December 12th, 2012 00:14

I'd assume that people willing to buy a bundle of 11 Spiderweb games, most likely have a pretty good idea of what they are getting themselves into and I don't expect they would find the looks and sound of the old ones to be such a turnoff. Otherwise they would, and should, start by buying just one game. (In which case I agree that they'd be better off getting one of the most recent ones.)


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