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Dhruin May 30th, 2007 23:34

Obsidian Entertainment - Beware the MMORPG
 
In a promo preview of an upcoming Obsidian interview, Feagus Urquhart has warned that RPG developers need to be aware of the space that MMORPGs operate in and ensure their (single-player) RPGs use the advantages of the genre. Presumably, the comments are aimed at action/RPGs with their MMORPG-like grinds but it's a welcome comment for the entire genre:
Quote:

"For instance," Urquhart explained in an interview to be published on CVG shortly, "it used to be fine to make an RPG that was just wandering around and hacking things up with the player having very little effect on the world around them. Why play that game now if you could just play a MMO?" […]
Looking at the future of the RPG genre, he added that he'd "like to see RPG focus more on the world that they take place in with particular focus on making the player a real part of that world."

"Many RPGs, including some that I've made, allow the player to just stomp around and not really have to worry about the world that they are playing in. I think that really limits the feeling of you being in that world, which is what I certainly want when I'm playing a great RPG."

"I want that escape from reality and the more we can do to give that to players the better", Urquhart explained.
More information.

Morbus May 30th, 2007 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feargus
I want that escape from reality

This is the kind of thing I personally hate to see in people… The idea that games are reality escape ways… NO! Games are part of reality themselves, and are reality in themselves too. Why don't we embrace the reality in them and use them in their truer sense rather than trying to avoid a preconceived reality by immersing ourselves in a supposed "non" reality?

Yes… It is true that Vault 13's water chip crashed, and it is true that the overseer sent at least one vault dweller in search for another… It's NOT a lie (even though it's fiction). So, if it's not a lie, if it is TRUE, then it is reality.

I don't know if you understand what I mean, but that's ok :) I'm used to that kind of things when I say things like this xD

:EDIT:
Should Feargus and other developers think like me, and we would be seeing new and completely different kinds of games out there… I think it would be for the better. Oh btw! Vault 13 in Fallout 2 sucked! It REALLY sucked xD Jush' sayin' though… cause… y'know, Feargus was the lead developer or something :P

Dhruin May 30th, 2007 23:42

Nope. didn't really understand. ;)

Squeek May 31st, 2007 02:04

Just once I'd like to hear a dev stress the importance of creating rich complex worlds with their own intricate history and mythology, the kind with compelling mysteries, unique legacies, and the feel and promise of epoch adventure.

Game makers should concern themselves first with creating and then with authenticating those kinds of game worlds. If they can accomplish that, they won't have to worry about market share.

Cleric May 31st, 2007 05:11

Hey, I'm all for rich, complex worlds that I can really immerse myself in! Give me that, some decent combat and a minimum of 40hrs of gameplay and I'm a happy camper!

r3dshift May 31st, 2007 08:05

Morbus, your thinking is pretty much flawed. Games are a means of escape from reality, better get used to it. Failing that, your way of thinking is akin to that of modern-day witch-hunters who keep blaming video games for the killings that the accidental moron committed.

xSamhainx May 31st, 2007 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morbus (Post 30311)
This is the kind of thing I personally hate to see in people… The idea that games are reality escape ways… NO! Games are part of reality themselves, and are reality in themselves too. Why don't we embrace the reality in them and use them in their truer sense rather than trying to avoid a preconceived reality by immersing ourselves in a supposed "non" reality?

Yes… It is true that Vault 13's water chip crashed, and it is true that the overseer sent at least one vault dweller in search for another… It's NOT a lie (even though it's fiction). So, if it's not a lie, if it is TRUE, then it is reality.

I don't know if you understand what I mean, but that's ok :) I'm used to that kind of things when I say things like this xD

:EDIT:
Should Feargus and other developers think like me, and we would be seeing new and completely different kinds of games out there… I think it would be for the better. Oh btw! Vault 13 in Fallout 2 sucked! It REALLY sucked xD Jush' sayin' though… cause… y'know, Feargus was the lead developer or something :P



='.'= *blinks*

And I thought I was chasing my tail reading philosophy last semester!

kalniel May 31st, 2007 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek (Post 30319)
Just once I'd like to hear a dev stress the importance of creating rich complex worlds with their own intricate history and mythology, the kind with compelling mysteries, unique legacies, and the feel and promise of epoch adventure.

Game makers should concern themselves first with creating and then with authenticating those kinds of game worlds.

I wish they would too, however…

Quote:

If they can accomplish that, they won't have to worry about market share.
..they won't have to worry only because they won't have any market share. Sadly the market that cares about rich complex worlds with intricate histories is miniscule compared to the market that mainstream games target.

I agree his comments seem to be targeted at the action/RPG area like single player diablo clones, but it doesn't hold up for the virtual world on a hard disk approach that games like The Elder Scrolls take. He maybe wishing that the single player nature of those games comes back to shoot them in the foot, but I don't think it's proving to be the case. Some people want all the granduer and lore of a virtual fantasy world without the problems that online games (ie, other gamers) present.

The game can never centre around you except in a single player game.

Morbus May 31st, 2007 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhruin (Post 30314)
Nope. didn't really understand. ;)

Lol, no problem :P I mean, I can't really explain it better, and it's very complicated to explain in a few lines… I'm probably opening a small site where I will post editorial content, so maybe I'll touch that one :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by r3dshift (Post 30327)
Morbus, your thinking is pretty much flawed. Games are a means of escape from reality *snip*

Lol, I can say prettey much the same thing xD "r3dshift, your thinking is pretty much flawed. Games are reality themselves…" You don't agree, that's ok, but without explaining why you believe games are a means of excape, I can't really agree with you just because you have a nice nickname xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by r3dshift (Post 30327)
Failing that, your way of thinking is akin to that of modern-day witch-hunters who keep blaming video games for the killings that the accidental moron committed.

Huh… I believe I failed to explain my thought in a coherent and compreensive way… Your argument is completely misfit…

Quote:

Originally Posted by xSamhainx (Post 30335)
='.'= *blinks*

And I thought I was chasing my tail reading philosophy last semester!

Well… yeah… I know that… ^^

txa1265 May 31st, 2007 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morbus (Post 30311)
This is the kind of thing I personally hate to see in people… The idea that games are reality escape ways… NO! Games are part of reality themselves, and are reality in themselves too. Why don't we embrace the reality in them and use them in their truer sense rather than trying to avoid a preconceived reality by immersing ourselves in a supposed "non" reality?

Yes… It is true that Vault 13's water chip crashed, and it is true that the overseer sent at least one vault dweller in search for another… It's NOT a lie (even though it's fiction). So, if it's not a lie, if it is TRUE, then it is reality.

OK, so now I think I get it. Your use of semantics makes it confusing, but I assume that is due to language issues.

What you are saying is that we should stop making excuses for things that don't work in games by saying 'it is only make-believe'. Accept it as a fully functional alternate reality and embrace it as such.

To an extent we already do that - I know I do! STALKER, Gothic 2, and so on are immersive games that transport me to a different place where I become fully engrossed in how things operate on a daily basis.

Alrik Fassbauer May 31st, 2007 15:31

A water ship called Vault13 ?

aries100 May 31st, 2007 15:41

It sounds to me as if the good mr. Urquhart (or mr. U) wants to make a sim(ulation)game in which the hero's actions changes something in the game, That way the rpg genre will no longer be about the backstories of the heroes, but the herio will simply just be a normal guy, untill one day the emperor summons him or visits him in jail, and tell him (or her) that it 'has been written in the stars' or something like that…you know the drill….

boring… if you ask me…

I don't play games to play another reality or to go live in another reality. I play games to engorge myself in and delve deep into - and escape —— this reality…
(I know the way back out, don't worry).

mogwins May 31st, 2007 17:13

Choice and consequence. Amen!

Alrik Fassbauer May 31st, 2007 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by aries100 (Post 30350)
mr. Urquhart (or mr. U)

Seems to be a Scottish name. There is a "Castle Urquhart" there in Scotland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urquhart_Castle

kalniel May 31st, 2007 18:46

It's a well known fact that one of the ways of being succesful in cRPGs is to have an unpronouncable surname.

xSamhainx May 31st, 2007 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer (Post 30361)
Seems to be a Scottish name. There is a "Castle Urquhart" there in Scotland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urquhart_Castle

oh yes, this is the castle (or rather the remains thereof) that fascinated me as a child because of the photograph of the ruins I saw featuring Nessie out there in the water. It was a nice castle in it's prime, and I actually made a recreation of it using the map editor of the game Stronghold.

Squeek May 31st, 2007 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by mogwins (Post 30355)
Choice and consequence. Amen!

A lot of CRPGs that I thought were pretty shallow would have been a lot better if they'd had more choice and consequence. I'm reluctant to give an amen to that, though, because I don't think it's enough. Choice and consequence certainly doesn't pertain to everything that goes on in the real world.

If he wants his gaming worlds to seem more real, then Urquhart has the right idea, but he should also think in terms of how the player can influence his world even without clear choice or consequence. Like moving through water, the causes and the effects should be noticible but not entirely clear and not entirely in the player's control.

Morbus May 31st, 2007 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by txa1265 (Post 30343)
OK, so now I think I get it. Your use of semantics makes it confusing, but I assume that is due to language issues.

Hmm… It's most likely due to my language skills really xD But yeah, I'm not English native.

Quote:

Originally Posted by txa1265 (Post 30343)
What you are saying is that we should stop making excuses for things that don't work in games by saying 'it is only make-believe'. Accept it as a fully functional alternate reality and embrace it as such.

To an extent we already do that - I know I do! STALKER, Gothic 2, and so on are immersive games that transport me to a different place where I become fully engrossed in how things operate on a daily basis.

Well, I'm not sure I meant that but yes, I think that way, so it probably just "transpired" from my words :P So, all in all, yes, that's what I meant, although the issue goes a bit deeper, but yes. I'm glad you understood me :) My idea's nothing much, really, as you can see, but it is seldom spoke about, and people aren't normally aware of it, even if, when told about it, they agree… It's pretty simple: chess is not a reality escape, it is reality itself. When I play chess I'm not making war, I'm playing chess. And so goes for any other kind of game… This can be understood in many ways, but, in the end, it's all about how you *see* games in general, and not how they are… Hmm… I probably wasn't clear enough again xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by aries100 (Post 30350)
I don't play games to play another reality or to go live in another reality. I play games to engorge myself in and delve deep into - and escape —— this reality…

See? :) There is a small very small nuance in your post that makes me agree with you. It's that "this"… you said "this" reality and not "the" reality. That's what I'm talking about. What you play games for is another matter, and it changes from person to person according to one's personal tastes… I personally play games to *know* other realities. That's pretty much the same reason I read Tolkien's works over and over again even though I know the general plot lines and they don't "surprise" me anymore: I read them to *know* the reality Tolkien created. The concept is not particularly deep or transcendental, it's me not expressing myself clearly I think… xD

huh… me intelligence point have three points are… me… huh… me not are smart has… duh… XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalniel (Post 30362)
It's a well known fact that one of the ways of being succesful in cRPGs is to have an unpronouncable surname.

He joins TWO of the ways of being successful in cRPGs: to have an unpronounceable surname, and to have it sound like an orcish surname! xD Perfect for cheesy medieval low fantasy style rpg's ^^

Alrik Fassbauer May 31st, 2007 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by xSamhainx (Post 30363)
It was a nice castle in it's prime, and I actually made a recreation of it using the map editor of the game Stronghold.

Nice ! Do you still have it ? Can you send it to me ? If so, then PN me for my e-mail adress.

xSamhainx May 31st, 2007 22:27

somewhere amongst my archives of game stuff at home. Ive been wanting to play Stronghold lately actually, I'll look around for it. I still have a floor plan here on my work pc of the actual castle (since i actually did a bunch of it here at work while i was bored!)-

Floor plan

edit-
i found it last night after much searching! It was like 2 am on a work night, so after reinstalling Stronghold, updating, and locating my maps, I didnt have time to do anything else. Actually quite proud of this one, there was some difficult stuff that I had to do with walls and stuff to create the entranceway. As such, you prolly cannot march troops across it, as it's actually a series of walls put together, and the ai gets confused. As i said, i didnt have time to do much else last night and I have my D&D game tonight, so I'll just make a Stronghold thread this weekend (since I want to discuss the game again anyway) in the non-rpg section and either provide a download link or email you the map.


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