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-   -   The Batman Arkham Asylum Debate or something like that (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21219)

JDR13 July 19th, 2013 09:27

The Batman Arkham Asylum Debate or something like that
 
I purchased both Batman games during a Steam sale last year, but I haven't played either game yet. I did try the demo for AA back when the game was released, but to be honest I don't remember it that well. I recall not liking the UI though - too many icons on the screen.

I'm curious though because I do plan on playing them eventually. What is awkward about the controls? Is it because it seems like they would be better with a gamepad, or is it more about the responsiveness in general? Also, how long is AA approximately?

DArtagnan July 19th, 2013 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061208422)
I purchased both Batman games during a Steam sale last year, but I haven't played either game yet. I did try the demo for AA back when the game was released, but to be honest I don't remember it that well. I recall not liking the UI though - too many icons on the screen.

Hmm, not sure what you're talking about here. The UI is pretty clean if you ask me.
Quote:

I'm curious though because I do plan on playing them eventually. What is awkward about the controls? Is it because it seems like they would be better with a gamepad, or is it more about the responsiveness in general? Also, how long is AA approximately?
I switched back and forth between gamepad and mouse/kb - and I think both work fine. Gamepad is better simply because you can be laid back about it - and that's always comfortable. But, frankly, the mouse/kb controls are perfectly alright - and I wouldn't strictly recommend one over the other.

The controls are not that bad overall - but the boss/harder fights have certain mechanics that require you to move and jump about in specific ways. The game uses a "smart targeting" system when you hit enemies - and it tries to predict which enemy you want to hit or jump over.

Many of the boss fights (or harder fights) involve a lot of enemies on the screen - and you will end up jumping in the wrong direction quite a bit. This is fatal when a "big enemy" is part of the fight - because you need to jump out of the way of his attacks.

The camera issue is typical of these 3rd person over the shoulder games - where you want to dodge an attack by jumping to the side, and instead you end up jumping right into a wall instead.

But it should be noted that I have a very low tolerance for constant samey fights - and people who enjoy them will likely not be so frustrated.

About length - it depends on how much of a completionist you are.

If I had to guess - the main story takes up around 40-50% of the game. So, if you completely ignore every single Riddler question mark and what not - you'll experience roughly half the game. I estimate that will take between 8-12 hours - depending on your pace.

I was at ~65% when I reached the last boss fight - and I had about half the Riddler question marks found. I never timed it - but I think I've spent 12 hours or so with the game.

If you do absolutely everything and take your time - you can probably squeeze 25 hours out of it - or something like that.

Menigal July 19th, 2013 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061208422)
I'm curious though because I do plan on playing them eventually. What is awkward about the controls? Is it because it seems like they would be better with a gamepad, or is it more about the responsiveness in general? Also, how long is AA approximately?

I think they feel awkward to me because of the changes in AC, which basically moved around some of the quick move keys and tweaked some special moves to make them a bit more intuitive. When I first played AA I don't remember having a problem with them.

I agree with Dart on the UI being pretty clean. Not sure where you're coming from there.

JDR13 July 19th, 2013 11:09

Like I said, I only played the demo back when it was released, and I don't remember it that well. I don't like pop-up icons though when I feel they're not necessary.

For instance, I disliked that it would flash what button you needed to hit every time you used the grappling hook - as if you're going to suddenly forget what button it is right? :)

I also disliked the counter that pops up to track the number of punches you've strung together during a melee. Is there a purpose for that other than simply showing how many strikes you can chain together?

I realize that's nitpicking though, and I'd probably get used to it pretty quickly if I actually played the game. I'm not a huge Batman fan, but I've seen too many people rave about these games for me to not at least try them.

DArtagnan July 19th, 2013 11:19

Quote:

For instance, I disliked that it would flash what button you needed to hit every time you used the grappling hook - as if you're going to suddenly forget what button it is right? :)
Actually, that's not why it "pops up" - it's to indicate WHERE you can use the hook, because it's all but impossible to know without it. The game is kinda weird in how you can only hook in specific places - and there's no natural way to see for yourself. So, an indicator is absolutely necessary.

Quote:

I also disliked the counter that pops up to track the number of punches you've strung together during a melee. Is there a purpose for that other than simply showing how many strikes you can chain together?
Yes, it counts your combos because you need a specific amount to pull off power combos. Also, you gain more experience as you get higher chains.

On "hard" difficulty - it won't show you when you can counter and stuff like that.

But it's true - it does have a few pop-ups here and there that you might not need, but I found them more helpful than not.

Menigal July 19th, 2013 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208443)
Yes, it counts your combos because you need a specific amount to pull off power combos. Also, you gain more experience as you get higher chains.

And nothing makes you feel more badass than finishing a combat with a particularly brutal punch to the crotch and seeing you've chained together over 30 hits. :p

In Arkham City higher combo scores unlock special moves (maybe AA does too?), and you can get a special move that slows the action down once you pass a certain score. That makes it a lot easier to control your targeting in big fights.

Anyway, Arkham City's definitely worth playing, even if it does get a bit too grimdark on occasion. The Harley Quinn DLC's supposed to be nothing but overpowered mass battles, though, so I've never finished that.

JDR13 July 19th, 2013 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208443)
Actually, that's not why it "pops up" - it's to indicate WHERE you can use the hook, because it's all but impossible to know without it. The game is kinda weird in how you can only hook in specific places - and there's no natural way to see for yourself. So, an indicator is absolutely necessary.

I get that part, but why include the button icon every single time you grapple?


Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208443)
Yes, it counts your combos because you need a specific amount to pull off power combos. Also, you gain more experience as you get higher chains.

On "hard" difficulty - it won't show you when you can counter and stuff like that.

But it's true - it does have a few pop-ups here and there that you might not need, but I found them more helpful than not.

Ah ok. So on normal difficulty you get icons telling you when to counter? I'm guessing there are other, more subtle, hints on hard difficulty. Do you know if "hard" also increases enemy hitpoints, etc? It sounds like hard is the way to go, as long as it doesn't make combat too drawn-out.

@Menigal - Would you still recommend playing AA first?

DArtagnan July 19th, 2013 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menigal (Post 1061208448)
In Arkham City higher combo scores unlock special moves (maybe AA does too?), and you can get a special move that slows the action down once you pass a certain score. That makes it a lot easier to control your targeting in big fights.

Yes, depending on what powers you buy for XP - you unlock specific moves at 8x or 5x (upgraded) chains.

Menigal July 19th, 2013 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061208449)
@Menigal - Would you still recommend playing AA first?

Yep. It carries on from it, plus I think it's just a good enough game on its own, despite some badly designed boss battles. Plus you get to watch Mark Hamill ham it up the entire time!

Dart: I thought so, but it's been awhile.

DArtagnan July 19th, 2013 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061208449)
I get that part, but why include the button icon every single time you grapple?

Ehm, because it's the icon you already associate with grappling. Would you rather they add a separate "grappling" icon that specifically didn't include the button you use for grappling? Because that seems like an excessive nitpick to me.

They're just telling you where you can grapple - not specifically what button to use, though it serves as a reminder in the beginning where you might forget in the heat of battle. I think it's smart to re-use the "tutorial icon" for it - because then you're not in doubt about what they're referring to. If they made some specific grapple icon - you might wonder what they were trying to tell you.

Maybe it's because you're using mouse/kb. For the gamepad, they've made specific "console controller" icons for everything you do in the game. That includes button-indicators as an easy way to communicate what button they're depicting.

Grappling, for instance, is "right shoulder button" - and the icon represents a shoulder-button with "RB" on top of it.

Maybe the mouse/kb icons just have the key?

Quote:

Ah ok. So on normal difficulty you get icons telling you when to counter? Do you know if "hard" also increases enemy hitpoints, etc? It sounds like hard is the way to go, as long as it doesn't make combat too drawn-out.

@Menigal - Would you still recommend playing AA first?
Yes, on normal - you get an "alert" icon over enemies when you can counter their moves. There might be more subtle differences - but I haven't noticed them.

I'm not aware of any other differences - but I assume there's something there.

Hard was perfect for me for normal fights - but some of the later fights have too many enemies on screen for the controls to work like I think they should. Having to perfectly time counter-moves while watching what the big dudes were doing - while your screen is cluttered with enemies was a bit annoying - but not at all undoable.

I didn't feel particularly challenged at any point in the game - it was more a matter of being saturated by a specific kind of boss/hard fight towards the very end.

I'm sure you'll recognize this when you get there yourself.

JDR13 July 19th, 2013 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208452)
Ehm, because it's the icon you already associate with grappling. Would you rather they add a separate "grappling" icon that specifically didn't include the button you use for grappling? Because that seems like an excessive nitpick to me.

They're just telling you where you can grapple - not specifically what button to use, though it serves as a reminder in the beginning where you might forget in the heat of battle. I think it's smart to re-use the "tutorial icon" for it - because then you're not in doubt about what they're referring to. If they made some specific grapple icon - you might wonder what they were trying to tell you..

Hmm…ok. You could apply that logic to any other action game as well, but we've gotten along just fine over the years without having icons like that. I think it's completely unnecessary, but that's just my opinion. I guess maybe that's what the newer generation expects. But yes, it's a nitpick.



Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208452)
Yes, on normal - you get an "alert" icon over enemies when you can counter their moves. There might be more subtle differences - but I haven't noticed them.

I'm not aware of any other differences - but I assume there's something there.

What I meant was that I assume there's some other kind of indicator for when you can pull off a counter. Like a certain stance, etc.

DArtagnan July 19th, 2013 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061208454)
Hmm…ok. You could apply that logic to any other action game as well, but we've gotten along just fine over the years without having icons like that. I think it's completely unnecessary, but that's just my opinion. I guess maybe that's what the newer generation expects.

The game is designed in such a way that you can't do without some kind of indicator for where you can grapple. I don't see how they could make it so you wouldn't need an indicator of some kind. It's way too "free" roaming for that.

The fact that the icon is also the button you use for the skill is - to me - absolutely logical and a smart use of communication.

Most games would have something like this at the tutorial stage:

"Use the RB button to grapple where the indicator is."

But they've simply combined the two.

Instead of shoving a text-based tutorial down your throat - they're using minimal communication that's also perfectly clear.

It actually helps the UI and makes it much cleaner.

Sure, they COULD replace the icon after a certain "tutorial" stage - and have it look differently so as to avoid cranky old gamers being pissed at the reminder - but as I said, it's an excessive nitpick.

Also, consider coming back to the game after a break. You'd have forgotten the control setup - and you'd need to check control schemes again. They avoid that this way.

Quote:

What I meant was that I assume there's some other kind of indicator for when you can pull off a counter. Like a certain stance, etc.
Ehm?

You get an alert icon over the enemy. You don't have to be in a stance. You can counter whenever an enemy tries to hit you - but it can be hard to detect when you're surrounded by 6 dudes. So, on normal - they've added an alert counter when you can do it.

JDR13 July 19th, 2013 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208456)
The game is designed in such a way that you can't do without some kind of indicator for where you can grapple. I don't see how they could make it so you wouldn't need an indicator of some kind. It's way too "free" roaming for that.

The fact that the icon is also the button you use for the skill is - to me - absolutely logical and a smart use of communication.

Instead of shoving a text-based tutorial down your throat - they're using minimal communication that's also perfectly clear.

It actually helps the UI and makes it much cleaner.

Sure, they COULD replace the icon after a certain "tutorial" stage - and have it look differently so as to avoid cranky old gamers being pissed at the reminder - but as I said, it's an excessive nitpick.

No, you misunderstood.

I'm not talking about the indicator. I realize that's necesarry to pick the grapple spot out of the environment.

I'm talking about showing what key you need to press every single time. Unless you're a child or mentally deficient, it's not needed even for tutorial purposes.

Also, the indicator isn't also the button you use for the skill, so I'm not sure why you would even try to claim that it's logical. The indicator is a circle around the grapple point. The button icon is a separate icon slightly down and to the left of the indicator.




Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208456)
You get an alert icon over the enemy. You don't have to be in a stance. You can counter whenever an enemy tries to hit you - but it can be hard to detect when you're surrounded by 6 dudes. So, on normal - they've added an alert counter when you can do it.

Ah… got it.

DArtagnan July 19th, 2013 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061208459)
No, you misunderstood.

No, I don't think I misunderstood. You have a problem with them showing the button you use for grappling on the grappling icon. You've made that clear.

Quote:

I'm talking about showing what key you need to press every single time. Unless you're a child or mentally deficient, it's not needed even for tutorial purposes.
How would you know what key to press if the tutorial didn't tell you?

They'd need to tell you at least once.

In my mind, they're just re-using the icon instead of creating a separate icon for grappling once they "guess" you'll never forget what button to use ever again.

Quote:

Also, the indicator isn't also the button you use for the skill, so I'm not sure why you would even try to claim that it's logical. The indicator is a circle around the grapple point. The button icon is a separate icon slightly down and to the left of the indicator.
Maybe I'm confusing the "shoulderbutton" icon with the Arkham City version - which I just played.

But even if the button is a circle with the button beside it, I consider that to be one icon.

If you want to call them separate icons, go right ahead - but the functionality is the same. They're using the icon(s) to communicate WHERE you can grapple - and the button is just a part of that.

Personally, I can't fathom how anyone would even bring that up as an actual issue - especially without having played the game at length - but whatever.

I guess you'd have been ok with them taking the button away from the icon?

JDR13 July 19th, 2013 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208461)
No, I don't think I misunderstood. You have a problem with them showing the button you use for grappling on the grappling icon. You've made that clear.

Good. I was just confused that you felt the need to repeat the part about being able to pick the grapple spots out of the environment when I had already aknowledged that.


Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208461)
How would you know what key to press if the tutorial didn't tell you?

You're joking right? How did you know what key to press for X action in System Shock and every other game we've played over the years?

You either read the instructions or you go to the options menu and look.

I just think it's sad that developers today feel that gamers have to be constantly reminded of what buttons to push.

txa1265 July 19th, 2013 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208461)
How would you know what key to press if the tutorial didn't tell you?

They'd need to tell you at least once.

Right but any game that is telling you 'hey, did you know you could press 'A' to do this task' when you are 95% complete definitely fits the 'dumbed down for console kiddies' mold. That is what bogged me down with the Batman games … never got very far in the second one.

Also, when you have a game that is >15 GB … is another 32kB item REALLY going to push them over the breaking point?

DArtagnan July 19th, 2013 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061208462)
Good. I was just confused that you felt the need to repeat the part about being able to pick the grapple spots out of the environment when I had already aknowledged that. :)

Because I consider them to be one and the same - that's why. I consider it a "grapple/tutorial" icon.

Unlike you, I don't think they include the button because they think people are stupid - but because they didn't see a reason to NOT include it after the tutorial stage.

I agree with them.

Quote:

You're joking right? How did you know what key to press for X action in System Shock and every other game we've played over the years?

You either read the instructions or you go to the options menu and look.

I just think it's sad that developers today feel that gamers have to be reminded of what buttons to push.
I knew what to do because I wanted to play the game.

I never "preferred" looking in option menus for keys after having forgotten them.

I don't consider remembering whatever key to press for a specific function a "skill" of mine.

I don't like unnecessary icons cluttering the screen - just like you don't.

But I consider the grapple icon VITAL - and as such, is NOT unnecessary clutter.

The fact that the button to press is part of that icon is something I consider so trivially unimportant that I lack the words.

DArtagnan July 19th, 2013 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by txa1265 (Post 1061208463)
Right but any game that is telling you 'hey, did you know you could press 'A' to do this task' when you are 95% complete definitely fits the 'dumbed down for console kiddies' mold. That is what bogged me down with the Batman games never got very far in the second one.

The game is not telling you that.

It's telling you where you can grapple - and the grapple icon has the button assignment on top of it.

If that's a "dumbed down for consoles kiddie" feature - I must be missing something.

But we can agree that games are generally dumbed down - but that's another matter.

Are you saying this grapple icon was an actual reason you couldn't enjoy the Batman games?

Quote:

Also, when you have a game that is >15 GB is another 32kB item REALLY going to push them over the breaking point?
Having to make the effort to create two separate icons, and implementing code to switch them out - as well as determining at what point in the game it's "ok" to remove the tutorial icon seems - to me - to be a MASSIVE waste of time.

I have to say I think having a problem with this icon is beyond my understanding.

It goes beyond the kind of thing Joxer usually has a problem with.

Menigal July 19th, 2013 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208467)
It goes beyond the kind of thing Joxer usually has a problem with.

Damn mob-respawning minimally intrusive icons. :p

txa1265 July 19th, 2013 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan (Post 1061208467)
Are you saying this grapple icon was an actual reason you couldn't enjoy the Batman games?

No - it was the blatant consolitis … the controls couldn't have been worse if they had ported it to the iPad! :D


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