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-   -   Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’ (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22207)

Thrasher October 22nd, 2013 23:54

Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’
 
I'm impressed. Who'd have thought this from a Pope?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/2…in-the-church/
Quote:

“The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people,” Francis added. “But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?” He said Christian ideology was the result of a lack of true prayer.

Corwin October 23rd, 2013 00:37

I always said the Pope was a heretic!! :) The RC religion is really very much a pagan belief system if you examine it carefully, which no true RC is allowed to do!! :D

(Now I'll get attacked for the True Scotsman fallacy!! :) )

Couchpotato October 23rd, 2013 00:42

Old news but it's about time a new pope at least tries to get the church up to modern times. Good luck though it's going to take a miracle as they say.:wings:

Thrasher October 23rd, 2013 00:44

@Corwin Not seeing the connection to ideology. Belief systems are one thing, ideologies are another. Anyone can have a belief system, pushing it becomes an ideology.

Lucky Day October 23rd, 2013 01:35

Quote:

“The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people,” Francis added.
I think that was actually part of the idea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus, Matt 10:34-39
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.


dteowner October 23rd, 2013 02:17

As a long-fallen catholic, the new direction seems very encouraging. Get back to what it's really about, and all.

But….
I can't help but think that this "realignment" amounts to an improved marketing campaign. Reminds me of George Carlin in "Dogma". Uber cynical of me? Completely guilty on that charge, your honor.

Thrasher October 23rd, 2013 02:49

ha, and that's a frightening quote from the Matthew.

Corwin October 23rd, 2013 09:31

Dte, there's always hope for the fallen Catholic…….You too might have a Damascus Road experience!! :)

Sacred_Path October 23rd, 2013 14:41

Oh boy. First they get dumped by that quarreling German intellectual, but the South American peasant they've installed proves to be just as troublesome. I r sorry for you, Vatican.

Or maybe he's just trying to look edgy? It's super effective. ;)

Lucky Day October 23rd, 2013 18:54

what's happening in South America is that Catholics are joining Evangelical churches by the millions and its been happening for the last few decades. Voting the current guy in was mainly a push to stem the exodus. This statement of his reflects that.

Sacred_Path October 23rd, 2013 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky Day (Post 1061223360)
what's happening in South America is that Catholics are joining Evangelical churches by the millions and its been happening for the last few decades. Voting the current guy in was mainly a push to stem the exodus. This statement of his reflects that.

In Europe it will be seen as an attack on the conservative, not necessarily fundamentalist, Christian establishment; i.e. the only people in the free world whose education of their children will reflect Christian values.

Orthodox beliefs are what atheists and agnostics are most outspoken against and what earns the Christian church most of its criticism. OTOH, if you're not 'ideological' in orientation, you don't need a church. It's a fundamental issue every organized religion is facing nowadays.

zahratustra October 23rd, 2013 20:43

Very true Secret Path but, if you are ideological in orientation you get a church which is getting progressively smaller. So it's quantity versus quality kind of situation.

I tend to agree with you dte that new pope is leading a bit of re-branding campaign right now. I'm waiting to see what he does rather than what he says.

Thrasher October 23rd, 2013 21:08

Well he's also made few good statement about gays (and contraception and abortion)
Quote:

"A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will — well, who am I to judge him?" Francis later expanded on that surprisingly candid statement in a wide-ranging interview, concluding the church should not "interfere spiritually" in the lives of gays and lesbians.
Not sure what "interfere spiritually" means, though.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1…n_4080524.html

Sacred_Path October 23rd, 2013 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrasher (Post 1061223370)
Well he's also made few good statement about gays (and contraception and abortion)

Exactly. And let's not forget how he has chastised wasteful spenders, particularly inside the clergy. He's clearly on a charm offensive. I'm not sure that's the future of the Catholic church though. It smells like public appeasement and PR work.

Thrasher October 24th, 2013 00:11

Let's see if they actually change any of their official rules (or whatever they call them).

Damian October 24th, 2013 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrasher (Post 1061223370)
Well he's also made few good statement about gays (and contraception and abortion)


Not sure what "interfere spiritually" means, though.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1…n_4080524.html

What is "of good will" really? It is like he is trying to shy away from the religion itself.

txa1265 October 24th, 2013 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian (Post 1061223412)
What is "of good will" really? It is like he is trying to shy away from the religion itself.

Shy away from the religion? Hmmm … from what my experience tells me, Jesus teachings were about selflessness and 'the way', total acceptance, seeking the good, and showing the light through actions. What has happened - at least in the US - is that the church (and pretty much every Christian sect as well, Corwin) has become a center of judgment, hate, intolerance and a manic dedication to spiteful and mean spirited osctracization of people based on a very narrow litmus-test of so-called ideals.

dteowner October 24th, 2013 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by txa1265 (Post 1061223446)
Shy away from the religion? Hmmm … from what my experience tells me, Jesus teachings were about selflessness and 'the way', total acceptance, seeking the good, and showing the light through actions. What has happened - at least in the US - is that the church (and pretty much every Christian sect as well, Corwin) has become a center of judgment, hate, intolerance and a manic dedication to spiteful and mean spirited osctracization of people based on a very narrow litmus-test of so-called ideals.

Or perhaps it's just a case of the rule book being a bit contradictory? You've got the "man shall not lie with man" stuff and you've got the "love everyone" stuff. Could get a little tricky to resolve that tangle, even before you introduce the inevitable zealots. Perhaps you're just being a little too judgmental, hateful, intolerant, spiteful, and mean-spirited based on a very narrow litmus test of so-called political correctness?

DArtagnan October 24th, 2013 15:08

I never quite understood why people who believe in God would follow a book based on the writings of man.

But that's me :)

txa1265 October 24th, 2013 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by dteowner (Post 1061223491)
Or perhaps it's just a case of the rule book being a bit contradictory? You've got the "man shall not lie with man" stuff and you've got the "love everyone" stuff. Could get a little tricky to resolve that tangle, even before you introduce the inevitable zealots. Perhaps you're just being a little too judgmental, hateful, intolerant, spiteful, and mean-spirited based on a very narrow litmus test of so-called political correctness?

Aside from agreeing with D'Artagnan …

The probem is that the Old Testament was very much about history and living in that world … and when people take things from that book, it is entirely about saying 'you cannot do this'. But specific to homosexuality it was taken from a highly contested context from a book that forbids all sorts of things including specific fabrics, getting tatoos, eating ham, and heck, children who curse their parents are to be put to death!

In the New Testament it is made clear that Jesus is saying things about 'The Way' - an enlightened path of conciliation and tolerance and acceptance. He surrounded himself with very flawed people and condemned those who claimed to be superior by seeking high positions in churches or adorning themselves with ostentatious shows of pseudo-piousness.

As for me, I believe that everyone deserves equal treatment, and that people of vulnerable disposition due to gender, religion, politcs, national origin or sexual orientation need to be defended from the 'tyranny of the majority'. Because 'privilege' is very real, and I know that as a white Christian hetero educated conservative-looking male I am afforded special treatment at nearly every turn - I have seen it time and again. I welcome all those who are accepting and tolerant, and hope that all others will seek to be more acepting. At my local RC church our first visit was not pleasant … there was no 'greeting of visitors', and the homily was pretty much 'here is a list of types of people who are evil and wrong'.

I believe that people are entitled to their private opinions, and public opinions up to the point where no harm is done to others. I am all for healthy debate … but 'right to exist' is not really a debatable point … :)

And in the context of what the new Pope is doing - he is saying that Catholics need to focus more on being loving and caring and less on being intolerant of others. I have a good friend who is a devout RC, very anti-abortion and so on. But he takes action by working with at-risk and pregnant young people to try to help them choose alternatives, to get funding and support, and to be there for counsel throughout. And even if they choose abortion, he is part of a group to help them deal with the feelings from that as well. It is about love and acceptance of the people - even if they are opposed to the action.


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