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-   -   Let's play LMK … in Wiz8, et al. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9690)

Arhu January 19th, 2010 03:36

Let's play LMK … in Wiz8, et al.
 
The Lady, the Mage and the Knight



As many of you remember, LMK (The Lady, the Mage and the Knight) was supposed to be the fourth game after the Realms of Arkania trilogy to be set in the Dark Eye universe, but never made it — we got Divine Divinity instead, which was a fine game in its own right. However, I always liked the idea of having a "quintessential party" in an RPG made up of those particular three characters archetypes. So why not re-imagine LMK in other games?


1. Background

Lots of the older party-based RPGs allow solo plays due to their game mechanics which divides experience points between active party members, i.e. the less heroes you have in the party, the more experience each of them gets, which in turn means that they will level and get stronger faster than a full party of say, six. Another requirement is that there is no artificial experience cap, because it would make everything too hard later on. Either way, a relatively balanced party of three shouldn't bee too much of a problem.


2. The Classes



LMK was based on the Dark Eye ruleset, 3rd edition, similar to the old Realms of Arkania games. There were no races or professions per se, as you may know them from AD&D, but rather combined archetypes. So our three heroes are most likely: Mage, Warrior and Sylvan Elf.

The Knight: This is your typical strong and well trained human male melee fighter. Prefers swords (and shield?) and knows everything about combat. Wears heavy armor, can't use magic.
Examples: Warrior from Diablo 1, Knight from Trine, Human Fighter (specialized in swords/shield) from D&D, Tomas from Raymond Feist's Midkemia Saga.

The Mage: This is your typical frail but highly knowledgeable human male mage. Powerful user of the arcane arts. Can only use staves and simple daggers, no (normal) shields. Wears a robe and a wizard hat. ;)
Examples: Sorcerer from Diablo 1, Wizard from Trine, Human Wizard from D&D, Pug from the Midkemia Saga.

The Lady: This is your typical female elven archer (hunter, rogue). Uses mainly bows (longbows?), light daggers in melee as backup. May be stealthy. Wears leather armor. Can use some elven (or nature based?) magic.
Examples: Rogue from Diablo 1, Thief from Trine, Wood Elf Ranger (ranged, using bows) from D&D, Martin from the Midkemia Saga or Legolas from LotR (if both were women).


(Placeholder)

Corwin January 19th, 2010 06:09

Well, one of them would need to have rogue skills; probably the Lady. That's why I prefer a basic 4 person party: mage, cleric, rogue and tank!!

Arhu January 19th, 2010 17:56

But that would be LMKP (Lady, Mage, Knight and Priest(ess)), not LMK. ;)

Now, the actual reason for my opening this thread is that I'd like input of all kinds. What do you think should each of the three archetypes entail? Which abilities should they have? What would be good names for them? Looking for inspirations here — I suck at thinking up names. Most importantly, which games would support LMK?

I currently have my eyes set on Wizardry 8. I never played it but read about solo fairy ninjas, so LMK should be possible. I know of people playing solo characters in the original Realms of Arkania trilogy, which would obviously the first games to try out the concept, but I don't think I could stomach the old interface right now.

Regarding Wizardry 8 — I'd need some help regarding possible races / classes from those who know a bit more about the game. How would those three characters look like? Race / class / talents / skills? I'm guessing that certain skills are more important than others — which ones would I need for a successful party?

I found this regarding requirements in Wiz8:
Quote:

  • Must have at least one tank
  • Must have at least one Physical damage character (can be tank too)
  • Must have at least one Magic damage character
  • Must have at least one character with Locks and Traps
  • Support/healing character makes life easier but not a necessity
  • Portal character/s make life a LOT easier, but again not required
    (..)
  • Support members can be replaced by potions, powders and wands.

I should be able to cover all of those. I guess the Lady would indeed have to take lockpicking and traps. I wonder if she gets enough skill points. Somewhere else I read that alchemy is required too. I suppose that goes to the mage, or can't he do it for some reason? Is it possible to give the Lady or Mage one or two healing spells or are they exclusive to priests?

I had a look at available races and classes. This ought to do it:

Lady: Elf, Ranger.
Mage: Human, Mage.
Knight: Human, Fighter.

The hardest part will be coming up with names, preferably some that can be used in other games without sounding too alien.

LuckyCarbon January 19th, 2010 18:31

Not sure what you're going for, LMK accuracy or just the principal of it.

I'd give you the old Wizardry 8 advice of making all your characters female, then once the game actually starts change their portrait and voice to be male for your knight and mage. Wizardry 8 is a lot easier with all female characters for the endurance necklaces. Of course you can do the same with races if humans don't meet your stats expectations.

magerette January 19th, 2010 18:48

You need dte on this thread, Arhu. I'm trying to imagine getting through all the combat with only three characters. (!)

Your Lady archetype might be more useful if the ranged aspect was more of a sideline, and the healer/perhaps druidish magic user more to the fore, but you're right, someone has to be the rogue and that would make sense—perhaps your Mage could double on the bow? I don't think the skill system prohibits all weapons for magic users, but it's been a long time.

Interesting concept, anyway. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Arhu January 19th, 2010 19:19

Lucky: I'm trying to go for LMK accuracy rather than principle and make them as close to their archetypal image as possible, because I find the concept intriguing from a roleplaying perspective. Makes it easier to identify with them since you can imagine how each of them would react in different situations. So no power gaming but also no sidelining if possible. I imagine that Mage and Knight are pure in what they can do, the Lady sort of a mix but ranged with lots of handy skills the other two don't have.

I do realize that I might have to make small concessions, but the three heroes should stay "in character".

magerette: What do you mean by "ranged aspect more of a sideline"? Focus mostly on rogue skills? There is a rogue class, but I'm not sure if the Lady would fit that image, being an elf. She looks more like a huntress with rogue skills rather than a thief with bow skills to me.

Thanks for the tips though, both of you, I'll need every bit of help I can get. ;)

dteowner January 19th, 2010 19:23

I generally play melee-heavy, so I've got to think about this one a bit.

Lady = human bard (emphasize music, L&T)
Knight = lord (good tank with dual wield maces, gets divine magic for healing and magic screen) - I'd have to have my tables in front of me to be sure about race, but I'm thinking dwarf or rawulf
Mage = faerie bishop (for attacker, emphasize wizardry and alchemy; for support magic, emphasize divine and psionic)

I might take a second stab at this when I get home and have my notes and spreadsheets.

Arhu January 19th, 2010 19:29

Woah, sounds like you know your stuff, dte. ^^

I'd rather keep my knight without magic though and I'm not sure about using atypical races or classes, even if they give stat bonuses. I'm not going for the best LMK, just the most "faithful". I am however quite interested in all those skills and talents those three should have. I feel a bit overwhelmed, like the first time in Realms of Arkania, not knowing what's important.

magerette January 19th, 2010 19:30

I would definitely be more into following dte's suggestions than mine, if I were you Arhu, but what I meant was the Lady in your picture has an elvish 'nature priestess' aura to me and being sold on lots of magic as the answer to anything in rpgs, if I were playing, I'd focus more on that as opposed to the wood-elf/ranger identity. But that leaves the rogue skills up in the air. The Bard is a very powerful and useful class though, as dte suggests, and might fill the gaps quite nicely while sticking more to your preferred archetype. :)

skavenhorde January 19th, 2010 19:36

Baldur's Gate 1 would get you the knight and the lady in a pretty package with a bow on top. The knight is Khalid and the lady is Jaheria. Your character is the mage. If you don't like Khalid then you could kill him off and replace him with a real knight….the only knight worth a dam. You know who I'm talking about, give it up for your main man "MINSC" and boo of course. Fear at his battle cry "Boo GO FOR THE EYES….Go For The Eyes…..RRRRAAAGGGGHHHH Gotta love someone with that amount of dedication.

Minsc, Jaheria, and your mage should suit your party just fine. Mage takes cake of the lockpicking, Minsc does wha Minsc does best by being a complet nutter. Gotta love his dedication to the job though. You don't find that too often. As for Jaheira, she gets over the loss os Khaln eventually.

And there you have it, just don't recruit anyone else and your good to go.

This could be applied to Baldurs Gate II as well. Except you won't have to kill Khalid. Someone has already done that for you , how nice of them.

Of course you could try Knights of Chalice as well.I think that might fit it well with what you had in mind.

Or go back and actually replay the Realms of Arkania Trilogy. You get past all that nonsense like graphics once you have explored a little and get a feel for the game. They may be old, but they are not that old….

Arhu January 19th, 2010 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by magerette (Post 1060993384)
what I meant was the Lady in your picture has an elvish 'nature priestess' aura to me and being sold on lots of magic as the answer to anything in rpgs

Bad RPGs. :p

Here's another picture from Marian's site I linked to in the OP:



Mage: Staff and Alchemy pouch; Knight: Sword (and Shield and additional two-handed sword?); Lady: Bow and backup Dagger(s?). The original three classes from Diablo 1 are really what LMK are all about, I would think. Hmm.


@skavenhorde: I was also thinking of Baldur's Gate and figured I'd rather play a custom three-player party in single-player multi-player mode, well knowing that I'd miss out on party banter … just to be able to make them all "my own" rather than leaning on pre-generated personalities. Thanks for the suggestions though, Knights of the Chalice seems to be another game you can play in LMK mode, then? Sadly, two of the latest games don't support this, Drakensang and Dragon Age. They give every character the same amount of experience and you don't get more for having less active party members.

Relayer January 19th, 2010 19:51

Magic damage in Wiz 8 isn't as effective as crowd control (sleep, stun, confusion, etc.).

dteowner January 19th, 2010 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arhu (Post 1060993383)
Woah, sounds like you know your stuff, dte. ^^

I'd rather keep my knight without magic though and I'm not sure about using atypical races or classes, even if they give stat bonuses. I'm not going for the best LMK, just the most "faithful". I am however quite interested in all those skills and talents those three should have. I feel a bit overwhelmed, like the first time in Realms of Arkania, not knowing what's important.

8 wins including an expert ironman run, 4 Rifts including the obligatory solo faerie ninja run, and a little over 100 Arnikas. Yeah, I've played a bit. ;)

Relayer's 100% correct about offensive magic. Buffs and status effects (stun, paralyze, sleep, etc) work far better than throwing fireballs. Don't know how that fits into your roleplay, though.

OK, let's take another swing at this with a different approach to your archetypes.

Lady: elf ranger (ranged, autosearch, eventually alchemist for potion manufacturing)

Knight: dracon fighter (sword and shield, if you use the Scottish accent male voice, it will give your dumb tank an air of dignity)

Mage: elf mage (emphasize earth book and get knock spell ASAP; make certain you get the hidden Poseur's Hat out of the monestary to give you a chance at L&T until you've got the magic alternative)

You'd be much better off making the Lady a mook so you can eventually use the Giant Sword and melee, but that doesn't fit your painting terribly well. That party's got some real skill deficiencies, but it should be playable given some patience and TLC, and it fits your roleplay vision fairly well.

Arhu January 19th, 2010 20:52

Wheeee! Slow down, slow down. What's L&T? Lockpicking and trapping or something? Is that a combined skill? What's TLC? What's the Poseur's Hat? Lady with alchemy — I read about that too, i.e. giving the ranger alchemy if you don't have a dedicated alchemist (the class) in your group. Is there a reason for that or can it be done by the mage too? Are skills tied to certain classes? Are human mages too gimped compared to elven mages or would I still have a chance? I'm not too concerned about having the best available class/race combos.

Giving the mage crowd control spells shouldn't be too much of a problem. When I think of a mage I think of Pug from "Magician" (Tomas = Knight) and while later on he had some serious elemental skillz, the first thing he could do was cast some sort of magic rope tumbling spell, IIRC.

LuckyCarbon January 19th, 2010 21:07

I can help here. :)

L&T = Correct, Lockpicking and Traps
The poseurs cap is a class restricted hat wearable only by mage types that gives a bonus to L&T. It's found in the first dungeon.
Only certain classes can do alchemy: alchemist, bishop, ranger and ninja.
Yes, all skills are tied to certain classes, there's a lot of classes that get some of the same skills though. Almost every class has swords, few have alchemy and there a few skills only one class gets.
Elves make the best mages, but a human would work just fine.

If you're doing a Pug type mage you could consider a Bishop, they're all 4 casting classes combined. Mage + Psionic + Alchemist + Priest. I think you could certainly argue Pug had all of those abilities, especially by the later books.

Arhu January 19th, 2010 21:23

Muchas gracias!

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyCarbon (Post 1060993403)
The poseurs cap is a class restricted hat wearable only by mage types that gives a bonus to L&T.

Woah … isn't that a little backwards? Ok, I think I can warm up to the idea of a mage lock-picking (with spells mostly), they should have nimble hands after all, but still … I thought it would be the milieu of rogues, thieves and other lowlifes.

Quote:

Only certain classes can do alchemy: alchemist, bishop, ranger and ninja.
Ah, that explains a lot. I assume there is no such thing as multi-classing? Bishop does sound like a pretty viable alternative to a mage then, even though he isn't called so, as I believe a mage should also be able to work with potions and stuff — and maybe have one or two healing spells (Gandalf could heal a bit, right? Then again, he could also use a sword, which doesn't fit my idea of a mage at all… Dagger? Maybe. Sword? No way.), although healing skills could probably also go to the Lady, if that's at all possible.

Oh, and …
Quote:

Originally Posted by dteowner (Post 1060993395)
8 wins including an expert ironman run, 4 Rifts including the obligatory solo faerie ninja run, and a little over 100 Arnikas. Yeah, I've played a bit. ;)

You are insane. But that's a Good Thing™. If you ever feel like playing LMK too, be my guest. ;p

Dyspaire January 19th, 2010 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by dteowner (Post 1060993395)
8 wins including an expert ironman run, 4 Rifts including the obligatory solo faerie ninja run, and a little over 100 Arnikas. Yeah, I've played a bit.


I bow to you, sir.

(Ever completed Wiz 7?)

DeepO January 20th, 2010 01:49

I agree with dte´s first suggestion.
The thing to keep in mind is that if you´re gonna play the game with just three characters, you´ll gain quite a bit more levels than you would with 6 and some classes will be more-or-less maxed out long before the end.
Hybrid classes like bishop or lord level slower and have more things to progress in which means they´ll be interesting to develop for a longer time.

Defensive and disabling is where Wiz8´s magic´s at and since the game is quite difficult you´ll need as much diversity in that regard as you can get, especially since you haven´t played the game before.

I´d go with

dracon fighter
tank, duh (will be boring to develop later but since you don´t want him to have any magic, it´s the best bet)

mook bard (lady), changed to ranger after level 18
bard´s instruments are really useful in the first half of the game and will be handy till your primary magic wielder will come to his own, locks and traps are obvious plus, the change to ranger (you need only 18 bard levels to be able to use all instruments) will make the character more interesting to develop, as a mook you´ll be able to wield the mentioned giant´s sword and searching for hidden items will be easier

elf bishop
focus on wizardry and divinity the most, alchemy medium, psionics the least
starts slow but eventually the skill increasing will become faster

Arhu January 20th, 2010 02:40

Thanks for the input, much appreciated! I'm not really keen on using unusual races, they are too alien for me — as I said, I'd like to stay faithful to the images above. That's actually a main reason why I find them so interesting - they may not be the best, but they do make for a very well defined triumvirate.

How does multi-classing work? Is it like dual-classing in BG? Would it be an option for the Lady to become a ranger/rogue if that's possible?

What do you mean, "maxed out"? Do stats and/or skills have max levels?

Speaking of which, how should I develop the attributes for each character (ranger/mage/fighter)?

I had a good look at the spells etc. for mages and bishops and decided to go for a mage after all, even if it means that I have to give alchemy to the ranger. The divinity book or whatever it's called doesn't fit at all (spells regarding undead etc.), neither does the cleric-oriented ability to use maces and shields.

azraelck January 20th, 2010 03:38

Hmm. Imoen would qualify for the Lady, given that pic. Bow and dagger skills; as well as rogue skills. I can't recall the name of the Paladin you find to the north of the Friendly Arm Inn though, but there's your Knight. Minsc would be fine, but you have to kill Dynaheir to keep with the trinity concept. Khalid and Jaheria would leave you lacking thief skills. I'd go Cleric/Mage for the Mage (you), just to ensure some healing ability. Just don't use any of the weapons or other stuff that are Cleric-only.

You'd probably want to go MP and make your own party for BG under this concept.

It's been too long since I played Wizardry 6-8 to think of the concept too clearly there. Definitely Bishop for the Mage; for healing. Lord is the essential Knight, so that would be the obvious choice. Bard or Ranger for the Lady, though I lean towards Bard for the thief skills.

The early Might and Magics, a Knight (natch) Ninja (Lady) Sorc would work. Swap in a Paladin in place of the Knight for healing. With a smaller party like this, the Robber's slight advantage in the thieving skill is worthless; levels will be gained fast enough to offset it, and the ninja is a far better choice for everything else.


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