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April 17th, 2009, 22:46
Originally Posted by Yeesh View Post
Let me address a broader point.

People here on this forum aren't all that fond of Blizzard games. That's cool. I mean, people don't even all like the same kinds of sex. Surely we don't expect everyone to like the same kinds of games.

But, despite the wise and intelligent nature of the CRPG crowd, I feel that some of us tend to mistake our dislike for certain types of games, or certain game mechanics, as a failing of the qualities of the games, as opposed to a personal preference. To me, that's what's going on when I hear you say Blizzard games are not hardcore, or Blizzard games have "very simple mechanics."
Dude, you're totally on the wrong track here. I do like Blizzard's games. I wouldn't place any of them among my top 10 games of all time but I've had good fun with them.

Because those two statements are not true. You've taken your opinion of the game and you've turned it into an empirical-sounding fact based on nothing.
No, I haven't. Blizzard (single player) games are objectively very easy to pick up, play and finish even for casual gamers.

Explain how the games you like have more complex mechanics than WoW, with its 9 or 10 classes, each with myriad builds, with its interrupts, silences, and school lockouts, its buffs and debuffs, its cool-down timers, its different classes of resistances. With its customizable interface, with its raids requiring 25 people to coordinate their actions and learn a different set of tactics for each of dozens of raid bosses.

As a former DPSer, I can point you to spreadsheets for weighing the pros and cons of your equipment and attack patterns for different types of fights in WoW. Here's one: http://rogue.raidcal.com/RogueDPS_2_4_2_2.xls
Aaaah. That's where you're coming from. WoW. OK.
Well, if we look at games at a competitive level then a lot of games with per se simple mechanics do get pretty damn complex. That much is true. If you play Diablo or WC 3 ladder games or WoW at the high level then it does become a lot more complex, of course. But the same is true for "simple" shooters like Counter-Strike, UT or just about any game for that matter.
I was more thinking along the lines of single player games though and especially the Diablo series since the topic of this thread used to be Diablo 3.

What game are you thinking of with enough complexity to make that "very simple" by comparison? Arcanum? IE games? Ultima? Geneforge? Gothic? Like I said, I'd love to hear examples.
Well, since we are in MMO realm where I am lacking experience due to only a relatively short phase of interest in MMOs (between 2003 and 2006) I can not really bring up a lot of examples. I know where you are coming from though. You seem to be pretty hardcore into WoW. I used to be very hardcore into SWG (a game that certainly used to be more complex than WoW at least in the timeframe that I mentioned so there's sort of an example ). Anyway, if someone would have insulted "my game" as being simplistic back then I would have reacted in a similar fashion probably because SWG at least used to be a very complex affair if you aimed to play at a high level.
Again: It was not my intention to belittle WoW at the high, competitive level. I was thinking of Blizzard's single player efforts and the Diablo franchise first and foremost.

My point: something isn't simplistic just because it's not your cup of tea.
My point: Blizzard (single player) games are actually my cup of tea . I would even play WoW if it wouldn't be so time consuming. After my experience with SWG I never really got into any other MMO because I was/am not willing to ever dedicate that much time to a game again. As I get older time becomes more valuable to me and working full-time the little spare time that I do have I prefer to do (IMHO) more productive stuff like sports (I run at a competitive level). I fully acknowledge, however, that high level WoW is not simplistic.

Explain your definition of simple. Explain your definition of hardcore, admittedly a pliable concept. Do we disparage games that are easy for people to start playing?
No, we (myself included) don't. You can't just put me in that drawer where you want me to be. You seem to think of me as if I'm one those elitists when in reality I'm non-/anti-elitist. As I said I like the (IMHO) simplistic Blizzard single player games. I like mindless games like Serious Sam. I like complex games like the Realms of Arkania trilogy. I like Tomb Raider and Lara's b00bs. I like Oblivion. I don't mind DRM (much). I'm a Gothic fanboy. I like a lot of EA games. I love Drakensang. And so on and so on.
See, I don't really fit into some black and white pattern.

That doesn't really change the fact though that a game like Diablo is a lot more simple than Realms of Arkania. Or that Warcraft 3 or Starcraft is a lot more simple than Company of Heroes (again just talking about the single player experience).

Is Starcraft simplistic?
Yes (the single player game).

Is chess simplistic?
No. A strong no.
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