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November 29th, 2012, 18:23
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Wait - are you insinuating that strip clubs aren't an inherently sexist establishment? I mean, their sole function is as a place pushing sexual objectification of women for the gratification and titillation of men.
You should probably brace yourself for an alternate viewpoint. Personally, I don't see ANYTHING discriminating or denigrating about the sexual objectification of women.

So, no, I don't think there's anything inherently sexist about strip clubs. That doesn't mean that men who go visit them can't be sexist or that discrimination can't go on in places like that.

To me, discrimination is about making people less than they are - or trying to make yourself superior. In my world, lusting after each other is a biological inevitability - and I don't exclude equality when I look at women as sexually desirable.

That is a break point for me - if you don't see that, I can't continue because you are not a serious minded person when it comes to gender and I have given you way too much credit.
You should do what you think is right, and if you can't have a debate with me because I don't agree with you - then you should stop. I wouldn't want to waste my time with someone who can't keep an open mind.

But assuming you do realize that strip clubs are inherently sexist - and a 'for men' place then it should be a very simple step to understand how having a meeting there is an inherently hostile work environment for women. I can't even believe I would have to explain that.
I realise that you think that's the case - and you think that what you think is the objective truth. That's not what I would consider particularly useful when learning new things or trying to understand other people - but that's on you, isn't it.

It is very simple - there are plenty of male-dominated industries, particularly related to science and engineering. I work in one. The majority of these are normal workplaces, where women exist as managers and executives in a normal ratio to the overall population just as do people who would check something else other than 'white male' on the demographics survey.
I work in one too, actually. What I find is that people are the same whereever you go. But when one gender represents the majority - they get to represent the norm in that place of work. Quite simple for me, but I understand we may differ on that.

But for the gaming industry it is different - computer designers and engineers and programmers are represented less, and have been speaking up in HUGE volumes about how the rampant sexism, objectification, groping, and hostile workplaces have made it impossible to function. In this industry, women are poorly represented as managers and executives, and seldom chosen as project leads - even based on the proportion of female employment.
You claim that the gaming industry is different, I understand that. But you have nothing to prove it with. Sexism will be found in every place where one gender dominates. I find it surprising that you don't understand something so simple.

Have you ever tried working or going to school in a nearly all-female place? Let's just say gamers don't set themselves apart in terms of being sexist in that way.

The outcome of the fact that sexism is a major limiting factor for females working in the gaming industry, is that you have 'frat house' males deciding 'what women want'. COnsidering even an enlightened person such as you cannot empathize with a women enough to play as one in an action-RPG you can imagine how that goes.
I think you're being ridiculous if you're claiming that most developers are "frat house" males. That's ignorant to the point of stupidity. There's a huge difference between not being able to empathise with the opposite sex, and discriminating against them.

Boobs and bikini armor. Or pink ponies and flowers.
Interestingly enough - a lot of women don't seem to mind so much when they're playing fantasy games. Have you taken a look at the average male representation in computer gaming? They'd don't look much like your or me, or did you miss that?

In other words, stereotypes that limit engagement. Then when they survey players and find that many women don't enjoy the endless stream of same-old white male kills everything in a stream of f-bombs gritty realism Call-of-Halo-Gears-Creed crapfest they decide that it is because of the women, not the incredibly limited scope of the design.
So, females don't much like what males create for a male audience? That's a shock. But I'm afraid I don't see anything sexist about it. Again, would you enjoy a game made by women about horse riding?

So we get more of the same. And PLEASE don't bring up the ONE successful female protagonist (Tomb Raider), as it is the exception that proves the rule.
We get more of the same because most gamers are not particularly demanding compared to the core segment. That's us. They're targeting the largest segment when they're trying to sell games. I hate Call of Duty as much as the average female does - but they don't give a shit about me - because I don't represent the majority.

These things are not as clear cut sexist as you're trying to make them.
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