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January 15th, 2013, 09:40
Originally Posted by CraigCWB View Post
Which comes from William Gibson. Also referenced by Mike Pondsmith (the creator of the PnP game?) in that video Cerberus left for us. And I noticed he didn't mention sex a single time in his description of a cyberpunk dystopia.
No, he probably didn't mention a lot of things that are naturally going to be a part of seedy life on the street. Again, I don't think these things need to be spelled out in the definition or any specific example. It's the sort of thing that I take to be a natural part of the given circumstances - based on how human beings work.

That's a good example. People used to know what an RPG was. I think people used to know what Cyberpunk was, too. It seems odd, to me, when people who present themselves as purists, or at least avid fans, think they are doing themselves a favor by deliberately muddying the waters. Kind of perverse, actually. How many of those will be complaining bitterly if somebody releases a title that claims their favorite genre but which contains elements they feel don't belong, or lacks other elements they feel should be there? And then how will all that bitching and moaning adversely impact the creative types who feel they have to reshape their vision to please the fans? That's how genres get warped beyond all recognition.
Did people know what an RPG was? Because I'm not sure I agree. People never really thought much about it in the past, perhaps, but I doubt they'd be clearer in terms of strict definition. They just hadn't seen so many examples of the genre.

Yes, but the specific form that dystopian dark future takes is up to the author, is it not? JemyM thinks dystopia is the same as libertarian utopia, for instance.
Of course and it should be. I think these things should be expanded and any good author will bring his personal flair to whatever he creates. That's as it should be. If something is particularly good - people tend to accept it as part of the genre.

I said no such thing. I said it wasn't a key element. I described it as background noise.
Oh, I definitely think it's a key element, so we don't agree there.

Maybe you're looking at it from a gamer's perspective where anything outside of the gamer's realm of potential interaction doesn't really exist. What was the background of Armitage in Neuromancer? How much of a seedy underbelly was there in the virtual reality of cyberspace?
No, I'm looking at it from the perspective of the consumer - and it goes for all Cyberpunk settings I'm familiar with, except perhaps System Shock - because that was an entirely isolated location free from human interaction.

As for what's not shown and not talked much about - why would those things be important? I'm not following you there.

I'd put it the other way. You've obviously been exposed to different examples than I have, or chosen to interpret them differently than I did, as is the case with Blade Runner. And I'm really at a loss to explain all this emphasis on sex and prostitution in these comments. There are an infinite number of low life behaviors that low lifes engage in, and very few of them involve sex. As I said in my first comment in this thread, if you guys want to push for more sex in games I wouldn't object but this "Gratuitous sex or it isn't cyberpunk!" attitude really isn't working for me. Especially when people start backpedaling and claiming they were really talking about seedy lifestyles
I think you're confusing what's been said. I think most of us here think that seedy urban life is part of the setting - and vice/sex are natural parts of that life. You are here contending that it's not a part of the setting - and as such you are the one bringing focus to it by contesting it.

If you challenge that opinion, then it's only natural to expect clarification and why people think what they do. I don't think it's helpful if you consider an explanation of the viewpoint backpedaling, unless it's a logical contradiction. It's just as likely that your interpretation of what was said doesn't correspond to what was actually meant.

Seems to me that when people said vice and sex are part of the setting - you had a strong reaction, for whatever reason - and now you've created a fantasy where we're emphasizing sex as the most important aspect or something. It's not, and it CAN be background noise or something that's not spelled out. But an urban setting with heavy class separation and seedy life would be very, very odd without an abundance of prostitution and sex going on.

Take any popular setting where similar circumstances exist - and all will be clear. A good example is London during the Ripper crimes. In any story or game dealing with that time - the focus is almost entirely on the seedy parts of life. I consider that a good example of Cyberpunk without the science fiction aspects.
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