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March 2nd, 2008, 09:28
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Well…do you read the likes of GameTrailer comments? Or even Quarter to Three or Through the Looking Glass forums?
Can't say I've had that pleasure.

Obviously it's incidental comments since I'm not that widely read on non-Fallout topics, but hell if it wasn't pushed with Fallout, and hell if it's pushed again with Mass Effect. Doesn't that reviewers opening paragraphs come down to "you don't need to like RPGs, you can be immersed!"?
No, it doesn't — and the fact that you read it that way goes pretty far to prove my point that you stretch the hell out of everything anyone says with "immersion" and "RPG" in it.

My counter-point was (and I'll note here it was actually a question and not a statement): isn't "immersiveness" really only useful when coupled with emotional engagement?
Why would anyone want to play a game that doesn't engage them emotionally, at least on some level? Immersion alone certainly won't do it. Nobody would ever finish a game if it didn't keep them interested.

Isn't "immersiveness" defined as a visceral experience (and you'll notice by woges' post above yours that not everyone looks at it that way, something I noted before I find hard in this debate (different definitions per individual)) useless an sich, needing supplementary design approaches to help it out?
Yes, that's the way it's defined, and yes, it most certainly needs supplementary design approaches etc.

But doesn't all of this fall under the "bleedin' obvious" department? Kinetic-physical immersiveness is a property, not a game.

I'm not denying that it's useful coupled with those design approaches,
Oh, really? You could've fooled me:

Originally Posted by Brother None
Is it completely personal that I can't see the use of having a physical/kinetic sensation of being in the game with having a feeling of involvement? That sounds completely useless to me. Not neutral, it just sounds purposeless.

Originally Posted by Brother None
Other than occasional nausea if the camera is too wobbly in first- or third-person POV, I have never had a different sense of immersion in those kind of games than I have in any other perspective. I had no more feeling of "being" the PC in BioShock than I did in Fallout. Nada, zilch, zip. But I have a very strong imagination, and I don't see why graphics or POV should limit my imagination, or how.
Here you're not only saying it's useless — you're actually saying that it doesn't even exist!

PJ, the trouble with talking with you about this topic is that I get a feeling that I'm constantly fighting not to get pulled down a slippery slope. I'm leaning backward as far as I can not to say anything that'll set you off, yet it keeps happening. You're extremely sensitive about this topic, and have a tendency to interpret anything I say in the worst possible light.
BN, that wasn't fair. I have honestly tried to go out of my way to phrase my stuff as neutrally as possible here, yet you've still been reading all kinds of stuff into my statements — such as an assumption of technological inferiority, or a wish to see this become a dominant paradigm, and so on. It makes me angry, and I've resolved not to get angry on this forum, so in the future I'll simply ignore what you have to say on the topic.

Finally, I would suggest that we start to use the term "immersive" to denote the physical-kinetic sensation of being in the game, and the term "engaging" or "involving" to denote the experience of being emotionally engaged or involved in a game. Or we start using the prefixes suggested by Wikipedia — "narrative immersion" for what you're talking about, "spatial immersion" for the definition I've suggested. I do have a feeling the current usage of immersIVE has a strong connotation of spatial immersion, though.

Final edit: as stated, I'm starting to get angry at you again, so I'll join Squeek in getting off this thread. Consider this a "win" if it makes you feel better.
Last edited by Prime Junta; March 2nd, 2008 at 09:38.
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