Perhaps we just mean different things by "the rules." I mean (mostly) the mechanics; you include everything around them; also, if your experience is primarily from computer gaming, I'm sure you'll feel differently.
Hmm, the mechanics. If we're talking about the core mechanic of "d20", as in you use a 20-sided die for the rolls - then I agree it's simple. You can pick any one mechanic and say it's simple and we'd probably agree.
So, we're probably talking about different things, but I'm pretty sure the use of the word "rules" is correct in terms of what most of us were talking about, and the word "mechanics" means something different - especially if we're talking about individual mechanics and not the combined mechanics of the entire system.
AD&D 3d ed: O Glory! Finally, a set of simple, fast, intuitive, consistent, basic-arithmetic rules that allowed the DM to resolve literally *anything* -- combat, non-combat challenge, NPC interaction, whatever -- in a dead-simple, fast way that was beautifully bound to the character's... characteristics. Set a difficulty, roll a die, add your modifiers, check if you beat the difficulty, done. Take-10 or take-20 when applicable to make it even quicker. Joy!
I don't agree at all that they're fast, intuitive, or simple. The core mechanic, as I said, is simple enough - but that won't get you through a combat encounter. You have to understand how all the various actions work and what restrictions they carry before you can make a good decision on how to fight. Of course, some DMs don't follow the rules and some leave out most options, and then the result is possibly simple. I'm talking about the rules as they're written, not how they can be used. I've seen players spend around 15 minutes deciding between courses of action in a combat round, simply because so much is possible in 3rd edition.
Should you run, charge, 5-foot, walk, delay? Perhaps move and make a standard attack, or wait for next round to make a full attack? The combination of what you can do, with the various kinds of costs in terms of action type is pretty staggering - especially for new players. On top of all the common actions, you have feats which can be very complex in their own right, in terms of when they can be used - how they're used - and the consequences of using them.
All those things are part of the rules.
You need only take a look at the various forums dealing with rule clarifications and balance questions to realise that this game is anything but simple, intuitive and fast.
I have to say I think you're vastly exaggerating the simplicity of the system, and it seems to me you're letting your fondness of the consistency and internal logic (compared to previous editions) confuse the issues.
I don't mean to offend you by saying that, it's just what I'm getting from your posts. I've been playing PnP since the old D&D days, and to call the latest editions simple with that in mind, well, that's just not what I would do
And you guys whine about this being "complex?" SRSLY?
In my case, quite the opposite. I praise the kind of complexity present in 3rd edition, as it makes for a much more interesting game. That said, I think the combat rules in particular could stand some revisions, especially in terms of the inept balance or lack of it. But we'll see how 4th edition turns out.
Oh, and by the way, I agree with what you said about the previous editions of the game. I also think 3rd edition was a big step in the right direction, we simply disagree that it's a simple system.
I remain firm in my opinion that creating and developing a character, as well as getting through a combat encounter is significantly more complex and involved than it ever was.
Not really, sure if you insist on having the most powerful character possible or absolutly must have the Whirlygig of Slicy Death feat at level 26 you'll have to plan ahead, but unless you do something absurd you can make a playable character without worrying too much about feats.
We're not talking about a playable character, but an effective one. I think many players care that their characters are good at what they do, instead of simply being playable.
I don't think NWN character creation was all that complex, you could make it so by delving into the detail of crossclassing, feats, skills and so on. Or could just hit 'recomend' at every step and have a reasonably playable character. The complexity is there if you need it but you weren't forced to use it.
You're right.
If you skip the rules entirely, and click the recommend button - the process isn't complex. But that doesn't change the nature of the rules and how involved they are - whether you elect to ignore them or not.
