Planescape: Torment - Now Available on GOG!

JDR13 said:
Does that mean it has to be sub-par?
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No, I just thought that the variety might have been greater if they had really focused on it, maybe.

Developers are usually trying to deliver according to a certain premise. According to something they have internal.

Any hack & slay game could therefore have much more focus on combbat than any "social RPG" (which still oesn't exist the way I'd want it to).

Just as an example. You can focus not on everything with the same energy, o at least it's difficult. If you focus on a certain thing, chance is it will be better than the other, not-focused-on things, I assume.
 
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DeepO

Have you considered that you might like something, and others might not?

I mean - you can of course try to "convince" people they've been wrong about Torment, but it's not like I tried it for 20 minutes and put it away.

I've played it QUITE a bit, because I've kept trying to give it a chance on several occasions.

Whatever you might like about it, obviously isn't the kind of thing that appeals to me. Your definition of non-linear open world exploration must be VERY different from mine - because I remember the game as being quite linear. You might think there was sufficient exploration, I didn't. You might think flags in dialogues that check attribute scores is interesting, I don't - though it's fine for what it is.

I don't really think alternate lines constitute sufficient variety in terms of choice and consequence. I like things to be visible and emergent, much more than scripted with text. It's not that kind of game, and that's fine.

Character creation was extremely basic and rigid, combat was crap, loot was boring - and the game had way too much text, shock full of "oh so profound" dialogue, and unfortunately I couldn't get past that. I know it impressed a lot of people, but I largely prefer plausible "down-to-earth" scenarios, because I have an extremely hard time identifying with a supreme immortal being with a past I have no influence over.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I fully accept it's a fantastic game if you're into that sort of thing. I wouldn't say otherwise.

Now, try to accept that it's not an objective masterpiece - please ;)

No games are like that.
 
DArtagnan

Obviously what I´m offering is my opinion on why I find the game enjoyable and why I think other people might find it enjoyable as well.

DArtagnan said:
I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I fully accept it's a fantastic game if you're into that sort of thing. I wouldn't say otherwise.
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Good. Because, to reiterate the above, what I´m basically saying is that if you´re into that sort of thing, you might imo find the game fantastic.

DArtagnan said:
Now, try to accept that it's not an objective masterpiece - please ;)

No games are like that.
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Lol!
 
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DeepO said:
Yeah, but combat is still better in PS:T and unlike in the case of Arcanum, there´s not that much of it and most is avoidable.
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So it is like a text only game but with sprites and a bit of combat . Because i do have watch much of "lets play PST" video series i know that some of the text can be very long ; definitely not for people who can only play at late night :)


DeepO said:
Cutscenes without player´s input aren´t gameplay, dialogues in PS:T are. Btw, what´s your stance on adventure games, like Monkey Island for example, is there a gameplay in there?
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I am not a big fan of cutscenes and i have only played like 3 or 4 adventure games , in general i don't like em but with some exceptions like Amerzone , Dracula and of course Larry. In Dracula i spent like 3 hours looking at the stupid crime scene map , it wasn't much of gameplay but i was intrigued to solve the mystery.
 
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Let me rephrase what I said: The reason a lot of people (myself included) consider PS:T on the same level as the behemoth Baldur's Gate 2 is mainly the writing (and by writing I also mean all the characters, the setting and so on).

Baldur's Gate 2 beats the living daylight out of PS:T in pretty much every other aspect as far as I'm concerned, yet I still consider PS:T one of the truly greats, and that is because PS:T is so far beyond BG2 in terms of writing.

A few examples of where BG2 beats PS:T
- Combat (by miles)
- Music (one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard)
- Overall polish and quality (yet again by miles)
- Variety in terms of spells and abilities
- Variety in terms of loot/gear
- Overall scope (BG2 is massive)
- Smoother interface

Sure, even with poor writing, PS:T would redeem itself a wee bit due to the original setting and concept, but that alone is far from turning it into a classic comparable to games like Baldur's Gate 2.

That's why I like to call it an interactive novel - other game elements are certainly present, but they're all merely "okay", while the writing is possibly the best we've ever seen. It's the one reason to play PS:T instead of other alternatives.

Edit: In case people lack the ability to read between the lines or remember what I've written previously - I've never claimed PS:T is literally an interactive novel. It's a figure of speech to point out the extremely heavy emphasis PS:T has on writing.

Edit 2: My original quote for reference:
Maylander said:
The writing. PS:T is more of an interactive book than a game really. The characters, the plot, the world itself - all extremely well written.

The gameplay is not all that great though, as it's basically a sluggish version of IWD/BG.
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I didn't think the writing in PS:T was *that* much better than Baldur's Gate. Although there's no doubt the story was more original.

Whether or not the setting and characters were superior is definitely subjective.
 
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To each their own. Baldur's gate games may be massive, but most of their content is also highly generic high fantasy tripe. There are hardly any skill or stat checks compared to Fallouts or even PST and usually quests can be solved only one way. In my book PST will always rank above Baldur's Gate games for these reasons alone.
 
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tolknaz said:
To each their own. Baldur's gate games may be massive, but most of their content is also highly generic high fantasy tripe. There are hardly any skill or stat checks compared to Fallouts or even PST and usually quests can be solved only one way. In my book PST will always rank above Baldur's Gate games for these reasons alone.
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Doesn't sound like you've even played them.
 
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I have played through all infinity engine games several times. Baldur's gate games have many areas of excellence of their own, but no other Infinity Engine game has the quality of writing, originality of the setting and characters, amount of stat/skill checks in dialogues or varied ways to solve quests even remotely comparable to PST.
 
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I always thought BG and BGII had plenty of ways to solve each quest, however they seemed to mostly be a good way and an evil way. So if you play as a good or evil character all the time, then your choices are somewhat limited as the other choice is out of character. Plus there are a lot of fights that it is impossible to talk your way out of (not that that is necessarily bad, but as a comparison to Ps:T).

That said, BG 1 and 2 are still my favorites!
 
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Benedict said:
It is possible for something to be an objective masterpiece even with some people subjectively being underwhelmed . . .
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The trouble is when people take their own subjective opinion and use it as proof of something it can never prove.

Nothing can ever be proven to be an objective masterpiece.

Even so, there are SO many people who think that something MUST be universally great, because it's so well liked by so many.

I find that ever puzzling, but there it is.
 
DArtagnan said:
The trouble is when people take their own subjective opinion and use it as proof of something it can never prove.

Nothing can ever be proven to be an objective masterpiece.

Even so, there are SO many people who think that something MUST be universally great, because it's so well liked by so many.

I find that ever puzzling, but there it is.
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What we do know is that it's the 2nd most sought after game on GOG. Which doesn't necessarily mean that it is that good, but it is (together with other "evidence") an indication that many gamers regard it as something special, even in a league of it's own.

I suspect that if we were to sample crpg-gamers personal favourite list, we would find less variation in the support for PS:T than other games. Guesswork, of course, but I guess it's not too far off.

Doesn't mean that you have to like it, or that it's objectively a masterpiece, but it says something about its position.

I wonder what game is on number 1 on GOG's most wanted list. (Hope it's not BG2)
 
pibbur said:
What we do know is that it's the 2nd most sought after game on GOG. Which doesn't necessarily mean that it is that good, but it is (together with other "evidence") an indication that many gamers regard it as something special, even in a league of it's own.

I suspect that if we were to sample crpg-gamers personal favourite list, we would find less variation in the support for PS:T than other games. Guesswork, of course, but I guess it's not too far off.

Doesn't mean that you have to like it, or that it's objectively a masterpiece, but it says something about its position.

I wonder what game is on number 1 on GOG's most wanted list. (Hope it's not BG2)
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I'm not challenging any of that ;)
 
Probably the game they already released - BG1. If not, it's BG2, hehe.
 
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Isn't a "masterpiece" generally regarded as something that is great in all aspects? If that's the case, PS:T is no masterpiece.

I do like PS:T a lot, and there's no doubt it's a great crpg, but it was definitely weak in some areas.
 
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I'm not a native English speaker so I miss a lot of the finer details of the language. But here's what Wiktionary says:

1. A piece of work that has been given much critical praise, especially one that is considered the greatest work of a person's career.
2. A work of outstanding creativity, skill or workmanship.

So it doesn't have to be perfect.

Now, say after me:
PS:T IS A MASTERPIECE AND THE BEST GAME EVER!
PS:T IS A MASTERPIECE AND THE BEST GAME EVER!
PS:T IS A MASTERPIECE AND THE BEST GAME EVER!
...
PS:T IS A MASTERPIECE AND THE BEST GAME EVER!
 
pibbur said:
I'm not a native English speaker so I miss a lot of the finer details of the language. But here's what Wiktionary says:

1. A piece of work that has been given much critical praise, especially one that is considered the greatest work of a person's career.
2. A work of outstanding creativity, skill or workmanship.

So it doesn't have to be perfect.

Now, say after me:
PS:T IS A MASTERPIECE AND THE BEST GAME EVER!
PS:T IS A MASTERPIECE AND THE BEST GAME EVER!
PS:T IS A MASTERPIECE AND THE BEST GAME EVER!
…
PS:T IS A MASTERPIECE AND THE BEST GAME EVER!
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You're missing the pretty vital "objective" part.

I'll grant that Planescape can be considered a masterpiece by the majority of its fans, just like Oblivion or the movie Avatar can be considered a masterpiece.

Both of those have a zillion fans, and they can even tell you WHY they think they're masterpieces! They're so PRETTY - and Oblivion is so DEEP. Avatar has such a great plot, right? ;)

Does that make them OBJECTIVE masterpieces? I really hope not :)

But the concept is somewhat futile, anyway, and playing with words gets us nowhere.

So, I'll just hold on to my little opinion that no game - and in fact, nothing at all, can ever be objectively good. At least not until we can be certain of truth.

Maybe that's why I have such an easy time accepting that other people like what I don't like, or dislike what I like.

It's just that I see so much negativity on so many forums, based on the inability of the average poster to truly accept that an opinion is nothing but an opinion.

It fascinates me, you might say :)
 
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