Game of the Year Awards @ Gamebanshee

Prime Junta said:

That is a matter of opinion. It is, however, a fact that it does have elements typically associated with RPG's (and is much the better game for it).

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There's an inspirational connection, yes. If you aren't arguing beyond this, then we agree.

I don't think anyone on this thread is disputing that.

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But if it has more in common with traditional shooters then it can't be a runner-up for best action RPG. That was my initial statement.

Except that Half-Life 2 doesn't have the rich back story, complex and well-written characters, nor character development.

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It does (Except character development). Here's your critique.

Prime Junta said:

Try pouting and stamping your foot. It'll look more convincing.

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Wow. Ever tried taking a look at your own posting style once in a while?

It's pretty obvious you don't even want to try and discuss this properly.

Asbjoern said:

There's an inspirational connection, yes. If you aren't arguing beyond this, then we agree.

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I'm not.

But if it has more in common with traditional shooters then it can't be a runner-up for best action RPG. That was my initial statement.

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I was a bit surprised by the award too; as I said in my first message on this thread, calling it an action RPG is a bit of a stretch IMO. But then I have an aversion for granite walls between genres, so perhaps I'm more tolerant of heresies like this..

It does (Except character development). Here's your pretentious critique.

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That critique was way too tedious to sit through. However, if Eli Vance and Dog are your idea of well-characterized, deep individuals, I feel sorry for you.

Holly Avenger said:

Wow. Ever tried taking a look at your own posting style once in a while?

It's pretty obvious you don't even want to try and discuss this properly.

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Holly, I tend to respond in kind. Many of the answers I got on this thread were not attempts at proper discussion, so I didn't bother to respond to them properly.

Reading yours again, though, you didn't deserve it; I simply lumped you in with ISS and gang. Sorry. That said, I have a strong dislike for people who tout definitions of terms that exclude things generally considered to fall within the definition.

Prime Junta said:

If Eli Vance is your idea of a well-characterized, deep individual, I feel sorry for you.

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Thanks Prime Junta. You are always so sympathetic to debate with. And no, he isn't and I'm surprised you can comprise it down to that.

Asbjoern said:

Thanks Prime Junta. You are always so sympathetic to debate with. And no, he isn't and I'm surprised you can comprise it down to that.

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I don't play for sympathy. I play to win. If you don't like it, then don't debate me.

OK, then. What, in your view, is the deep story and characterization in HL2? From where I'm at, it's totally vanilla dystopian science-fiction -- as unoriginal and derivative as it gets. HL2's strengths lie entirely elsewhere.

Prime Junta said:

I don't play for sympathy. I play to win. If you don't like it, then don't debate me.

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That alternative becomes increasingly tempting...

Prime Junta said:

OK, then. What, in your view, is the deep story and characterization in HL2? From where I'm at, it's totally vanilla dystopian science-fiction -- as unoriginal and derivative as it gets. HL2's strengths lie entirely elsewhere.

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I think you don't see the point. What several people in this threat tried to show is that while a deep story and characterization might be typically associated with RPGs it is not a feature exclusive to the genre - therefore not a defining feature. To name one other genre: Most adventures have a deep story and characterization.

As for character development - there were probably several strategy titles in 2007 which also had some kind of character development (probably much deeper than the one to be found in BioShock), but no one would define them as action RPGs, because at the very core they are strategy games, not RPGs.

At least for me personally Bioshock plays and feels like a typical shooter. At the very core of the game is shooting stuff and you do that in a doomlike way. And that's basically it. It's true, you can individualize your "character" to a certain extent, but is that real character development? You pick things up as you go along, but this very limited amount of character development doesn't seem to be an integral part of the game - you could simply cut out this part and the game would pretty much feel the same... that's quite different in most Action RPGs or RPGs in general, where character development is in fact an integral part. Imagine Diablo without the ability to level up your character - it's impossible, probably no one would play it. Now imagine Bioshock without these so called "RPG" elements - it would be essentially the same game.

I won't deny that Bioshock gives you more options than the average shooter, but I seriously doubt that that allows for the redefinition of the genre. I think the "action RPG" genre is even closer defined than the RPG genre itself, being a subgenre. If someone asks you to name an action RPG, do you think of Diablo or Bioshock?

Ionstormsucks said:

I won't deny that Bioshock gives you more options than the average shooter, but I seriously doubt that that allows for the redefinition of the genre. I think the "action RPG" genre is even closer defined than the RPG genre itself, being a subgenre. If someone asks you to name an action RPG, do you think of Diablo or Bioshock?

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Diablo, of course.

You seem a bit slow on the uptake, so here it is one more time:

I. Am. Not. Claiming. That. Bioshock. Is. An. Action. RPG.

Got that, or do you want me to repeat it one more time?

I was simply objecting to your silly statement that there is "no relation" between Bioshock and RPG's, since it's pretty obvious that Bioshock borrows heavily from RPG's. If it wasn't, the net wouldn't be full of pointless arguments like this one.

Edit: Or these ones.

Prime Junta said:

Diablo, of course.

You seem a bit slow on the uptake, so here it is one more time:

I. Am. Not. Claiming. That. Bioshock. Is. An. Action. RPG.

Got that, or do you want me to repeat it one more time?

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Yeah right, mate... personal attacks - totally adds to your credibility.

Prime Junta said:

I was simply objecting to your silly statement that there is "no relation" between Bioshock and RPG's, since it's pretty obvious that Bioshock borrows heavily from RPG's. If it wasn't, the net wouldn't be full of pointless arguments like this one.

Edit: Or these ones.

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It's rather interesting to see with what vehemence you indulge into a "pointless discussion" to the existence of which you significantly contributed. But, I give up - you "win" (as you called it yourself... as if discussions are about winning or losing...).

Ionstormsucks said:

Yeah right, mate... personal attacks - totally adds to your credibility.

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I had explicitly stated four times on this thread that I do not consider Bioshock to be a RPG, yet you insist on talking to me as if I did. If that does not constitute "slow on the uptake," I don't know what does. And if you feel that pointing that out was a "personal attack," you haven't been attacked enough.

(Hint: a better response would have been "I must've read this thread carelessly and misunderstood your point. I'll try to do better in the future." Not whining about being "attacked.")

It's rather interesting to see with what vehemence you indulge into a "pointless discussion" to the existence of which you significantly contributed.

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Indeed. Funny creatures, aren't we?

But, I give up - you "win" (as you called it yourself... as if discussions are about winning or losing...).

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If you're not willing to defend your point, you'll never find out how strong it was. That's the value of playing to win. Winning or losing are both valuable, as in both cases you're likely to learn something. So thank you for conceding the point. I trust it was an educational experience.

Prime Junta said:

(Hint: a better response would have been "I must've read this thread carelessly and misunderstood your point. I'll try to do better in the future." Not whining about being "attacked.")

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Mate, that's what I mean... you constantly "bait". If everyone here used the same tone as you do the climate on these boards would be pretty rough. I don't mind a cynical regard myself once in a while, but you're pretty much overtly aggressive and offensive, not only towards me, but towards everyone who does not share your opinion. It just makes no sense to discuss on such a basis.

As one of the arbiters of whether something is, or is not a personal attack, and as someone who has issued warnings in the past over personal attacks, let me just say that I do not see anything in PJ's comments that I could take issue with. Strong and a little caustic perhaps, but then I'm known for a similar style when I get annoyed by something as well. Still, none of the other mods saw a problem either.

Corwin said:

As one of the arbiters of whether something is, or is not a personal attack, and as someone who has issued warnings in the past over personal attacks, let me just say that I do not see anything in PJ's comments that I could take issue with. Strong and a little caustic perhaps, but then I'm known for a similar style when I get annoyed by something as well. Still, none of the other mods saw a problem either.

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Hey, I didn't expect nor call for a mod to help me... and yes, maybe I'm a bit touchy, but if someone basically tells me that I'm stupid just because I don't share his opinion I prefer not to take part in a discussion anymore.

Seriously last post for me in this thread...

Asbjoern said:

In my opinion a game is a RPG if it has inventory management, a quest system, NPC dialogue interaction and character development. But this is strictly my own observation of what gameplay mechanics roleplaying games have in common. I find it difficult to define roleplaying games with other traits without making the divide fluid and open to interpretation.

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Well in all honesty, Bioshock has 3 out of the 4 characteristics you just named. I definitely wouldn't call Bioshock a CRPG, but I don't think "action-RPG" is that far off.

Ionstormsucks said:

Yeah right, mate... personal attacks - totally adds to your credibility.

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Now if this ain't the Pot calling the Kettle black, I don't know what is.

Ionstormsucks said:

Hey, I didn't expect nor call for a mod to help me... and yes, maybe I'm a bit touchy, but if someone basically tells me that I'm stupid just because I don't share his opinion I prefer not to take part in a discussion anymore.

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That's not the reason I called you "slow on the uptake."

I called you slow on the uptake because you were arguing with me as if I had made a certain claim ("Bioshock is a RPG") when in fact I had stated the exact opposite four times.

I have no problem with people who disagree with me.

I have no problem with people who misunderstand me.

But I don't have much patience with people who are too lazy to bother reading what I actually said -- repeatedly -- and insist on arguing with me anyway.

I also found it odd to see BioShock there, but when I think about it it does have a RPG style interface with upgradeable traits/spells. Also the game promotes itself to be a game about "moral choices", even if I did not feel there was more to that than saving girls/harvesting girls. I do have respect for Gamebanshee though.

I do not know if I can call Titan Quest an "Action RPG" though. Most actiongames have stats and HP, even DOOM and there's really not more in TQ than action.

JemyM, Titan Quest has a detailed skills and stat system comprising nine masteries from which each character can choose any two. The player can play any of these nine masteries singly or they can be combined and developed into 36 additional classes, each of which can be individually refined to capitalize on a particular focus. Your toons have hit points and mana, and level with experience. At each level, you receive skill and attribute points. To me, this is directly taken from rpg character development models.

No it is not built around story or moral choice, and it by no stretch of the imagination is an rpg, but it is very clearly an action rpg in the generally accepted sense. Titan Quest is indeed extremely heavy on action and could be considered a clickfest, but saying it has NO rpg elements is erroneous. Unless you consider the model it follows closely--( to the extent that many have called it "the real Diablo 3," )--Diablo, to also not be an action rpg.

bioshock is not an rpg either in my book, but that's wholly irrlevant in my view as its far more than 'just a shooter'.
if the gaming genres were races then what is wrong with a little diversification or anamolous(probably not a word) behaviour? bioshock has lots of atmosphere and attention to detail--i'm pretty sure those qualities would be akin to a person with lots of 'personality' which appeals to nearly everyone regardless of what they do or where they come from.

a question to the hardliners and or genre purists:
why do genre labels and adherence to classifications matter so much to you?

Good question, c.u. and good example. Nothing seems to be more inflammatory to rpg gamers than the labels being misapplied ( I plead guilty myself in my last post. ) It always seems to make arguments turn ugly and personal. The problem is, of course, that at least practically speaking there are no clearcut neutral definitions of these terms--they are always defined subjectively.