Israeli troops admit murder and pillaging in Gaza

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

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Sadly, I found a three paragraph summary buried in one of the free rags here in NYC and that's it. Yet when the Palestinians send some rockets in, it's on the front page of the NY Times.

Are you surprised?

Well, I'm shocked. This particular quote stood out for me:

Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.

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I have no doubt he believes that and could make a case for it. And I wonder if that describes part of a solution or a problem. Maybe war should remain clearly loathsome and disgusting. That way we could always say with certainty that it was wrong.

No wonder everyone points fingers over there. There are things even worse than this that sometimes happen too and should also be worth considering. But those kinds of considerations are easily and frequently misconstrued and only exacerbate the hatred and maybe even the problem.

What a mess.

Surprised it happened? No. Surprised that the Israeli military college published it? Yes. Surprised the US media ignored it? No. Disgusted? Yes.

This was already discussed (a bit) on the M-E thread. Still, perhaps it does deserve a thread of its own. We'll see what happens; my guess is that the story will quietly die down, and in a month or two the IDF will announce that it has reprimanded a couple of sergeants. Or perhaps they'll jail the whistleblowers. That's how this stuff usually goes.

blatantninja said:

Surprised it happened? No. Surprised that the Israeli military college published it? Yes. Surprised the US media ignored it? No. Disgusted? Yes.

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This pretty much covers everything I wanted to say.

The New York Times(at least online) has a similar article, bn.
Soldier's Accounts of Gaza Killings Raise Furor in Israel
It's strange that this is in the press at all from Israel's point of view. It's an ugly story,perhaps even uglier than it seemed at the time, which was plenty nasty even at face value.

Amir Marmor, a 33-year-old history graduate student in Jerusalem and a military reservist, said in an interview with The New York Times that he was stunned to discover the way civilian casualties were discussed in training discussions before his tank unit entered Gaza in January. "Shoot and don’t worry about the consequences,” was the message from the top commanders, he said....

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Thanks mag, didn't see it in the print edition (granted I didn't dig through it either)

Hey, NYT's a huge paper. I'd like to see the story get on broadcast news tonight, but I agree with you that it will probably not get that much exposure.

blatantninja said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm



Sadly, I found a three paragraph summary buried in one of the free rags here in NYC and that's it. Yet when the Palestinians send some rockets in, it's on the front page of the NY Times.

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I agree that this thing is really bad, but I completely disagree with your comment!

Palestinians are shooting rockets at Israel everyday, show me how it's on the front page of NYT !
You might be disgusted by something but making it into something it isn't is as wrong !

Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.

"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said

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Now if they only had the same measured response to terrorism I'm sure there could be some progress.

I regularly see reports of rockets being launched into Israel on:

NY Times front page (not lead story, but front page blurb)
WSJ (same as NY Times)
On the international section of our local news in the morning
On the international news brief section of the Today show

Pladio we may not get news of rockets daily, but you can bet we get it whenever there are civilian casualties. Most news coverage of Israel is extremely positive here. Both our new president and our new secretary of state have endorsed Israel's "right to defend itself" against rocket attacks very publicly. As bn, points out, this story about anecdotal evidence from actual soldiers involved in the fighting is far less prominent, and most people here will have very little exposure to it.

And not to sound like dte or anything, but "can you imagine" what kind of world press this would be getting if this came from US soldiers concerning fighting in Baghdad? Hopefully, your leaders won't channel George Bush too much or you'll start to see far more of this kind of reporting.

There's no room for even a somewhat neutral approach to Israel in the US public sphere, Pladio. If you don't absolutely support Israel (more specifically Israeli hardliners) in every action it undertakes you are instantly an anti-Semite. Hell, Obama's nominee to head the National Intelligence Council was shot down largely for stating "The brutal oppression of the Palestinians by Israeli occupation shows no signs of ending". Bush absolutely refused to do things that would have played a large role in the current crisis. For instance, Syria was open to negotiations with Israel if the U.S. agreed to participate (we refused).

Even if you bring up factual information such as the continued expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank, radicalization of Israeli youth, second-class citizen status of the Arab Israelis, etc you risk being shouted down. I know the State Department has traditionally favored the Arab side of things (State opposed the creation of modern-day Israel) but politically elected officials and major appointees have no choice but to give Israel a blank check in almost everything it does.

Rithrandil said:

There's no room for even a somewhat neutral approach to Israel in the US public sphere, Pladio. If you don't absolutely support Israel (more specifically Israeli hardliners) in every action it undertakes you are instantly an anti-Semite.

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In fact your example is wrong. Any reasonable assessment would conclude otherwise. Your assertion is a clear example of the real problem, however (though it's on the flip-side of the issue).

Squeek said:

In fact your example is wrong. Any reasonable assessment would conclude otherwise. Your assertion is a clear example of the real problem, however (though it's on the flip-side of the issue).

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Really? Name a major elected official or political appointee who actively speaks out when Israel steps out of line. And I'm not favoring one side over the other.

Nonsense. You prove your point, not the other way around. Our country's commitment to Israel puts us in a tough position, but yours is just all-or-nothing thinking.

I did, but you already proved it for me. A major foreign policy nomination was shot down specifically because he was critical of Israel's policies in Palestine. Everything I said is an objective fact. Do I think Hamas is a wonderful organization? No. Do I support suicide bombings? No. Did I say Israel can't defend itself against rocket attacks? No. Did I say that we should cut off all military and economic assistance to Israel? No.

I want the U.S. to put pressure on Israel to find a solution to this problem, because this problem taints every American action (and to a lesser extent, European/other Western cultures) in the Middle East and in the greater Muslim world. We can't even give out free polio vaccines in many Muslim countries because they hate us SO MUCH that they believe these vaccines are designed to make them sterile or to give them AIDS.

There is a clear body of literature and examples on how to fight this sort of war (specifically look at Malaya) and a clear body of examples on how NOT to fight this type of war (Aden, Vietnam, Iraq for the most part, most of Israel's military history). There are even reports from Israeli government officials involved in the "peace process" that even point out the fact that Israel has no motivation to even attempt an actual solution. I'm just pointing out that criticism of Israel's methodology is not tolerated in elected/appointed officials in the US.

Even other western countries think Israel steps way too far out of line and uses excessive force. Their war against Hezbollah only fueled the fire and signed up more recruits for the enemy. Purposefully taking out civilian infrastructure? That's a great way to win the hearts and minds.

I'm against Israel's strategy, not their stated goal ("stop bombing us"), but the Palestinians definitely do not have their side of the argument listened to in the States.

blatantninja said:

I regularly see reports of rockets being launched into Israel on:

NY Times front page (not lead story, but front page blurb)
WSJ (same as NY Times)
On the international section of our local news in the morning
On the international news brief section of the Today show

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Even with no casualties ? (also as has been stated many times, Hamas targets civilians, not militants, so when Israel kills a few militants you won't see it as easily on the front page of a mjor newspaper since they're militants in most of the Western World, as in considered terrorists and as such, Israel has the right to kill them. If Israel was targeting schools with tens or hundreds of children you would very well see it on the NYT)

magerette said:

Pladio we may not get news of rockets daily, but you can bet we get it whenever there are civilian casualties. Most news coverage of Israel is extremely positive here. Both our new president and our new secretary of state have endorsed Israel's "right to defend itself" against rocket attacks very publicly. As bn, points out, this story about anecdotal evidence from actual soldiers involved in the fighting is far less prominent, and most people here will have very little exposure to it.

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Wasn't it you who even posted the article of NYT ? How is that less prominent ?

And not to sound like dte or anything, but "can you imagine" what kind of world press this would be getting if this came from US soldiers concerning fighting in Baghdad? Hopefully, your leaders won't channel George Bush too much or you'll start to see far more of this kind of reporting.

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I'm not sure what you meant by this.