ToEE - Keep on the Borderlands Media

Dhruin said:

Ironman has absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying, by the way.

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I disagree. Maybe not ironman specifically, the ability to save and reload at whim, not having to live with your mistakes, or pay attention in general, (and millions of other detrimental side effects) makes roleplaying impossible.

I don't know if you remember but for genuine RP experiences, I always note one situation I got into in ToEE that would've been avoided/missed/drastically lessened if I wasn't playing ironman.

I loved toee on ironman because I could come up with personalities for all the characters and I was provded numerous opportunities to roleplay them as I see fit. I can't do that in most every other game because the most every character, including my own, is forced to have specific personalities that you can fake role play in the limited ways the dev's saw fitting to include.

Also, the dev schedule for toee was 18 months, and keeping that in mind, the vast differnces on how the game plays and opportunities presented due to "group alignment" is amazing. How many games that were developed for 20x as long offer a fraction as much by way of replay value and actual role-playing opportunities? Opportunities that are enhanced and made real and exciting with ironman?

roqua said:

I always note one situation I got into in ToEE that would've been avoided/missed/drastically lessened if I wasn't playing ironman.

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Hmm, I think i remember that particular lesson, professor Roqua. Was that the pickpocket waitress incident?

I'm not convinced ironman mode has any significant relevance to roleplaying other stopping individuals from reloading and trying different events or avoiding deaths, which is an individual play style choice. Any game that doesn't hide the stats is also allowing individuals to pore through the manual, calculating the best possible min/max configuration - hardly conducive to roleplaying. However, hiding the stats makes playing it as a game less rewarding, so sometimes we have to prioritise practical gameplay over realism or other goals.

Many RPGs - including ToEE - have specific fights (such as bosses) where it is almost inevitable you will have to reload to experiment with tactics (or maybe just a lucky roll) to win...and otherwise, it's game over. I simply don't have the time or desire to restart a game all over, just because my non min-maxed party didn't get friendly rolls.

Anyway, getting off topic. I think ToEE does have some good stuff but you give it too much credit as a perfect RPG. Hommlet sucks no matter what alignment you play because the quest writing is shitty. Period. Playing a straight good party means hacking through xx levels of non-stop combat...arguably realistic for an evil temple but not exactly engaging except as a turn-based Diablo.

My basic point is that I think putting more/different character interaction into KotB should be a good thing, rather than the straight-up delivery of the module Tim Cain chose.

Dhruin said:

It definitely needed more story and character, although I agree not necessarily Bioware party-banter.

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Actually I wanted more NPC banter for ToEE, and made the 'Playful NPCs' mod accordingly.

I'm hoping to have some BG-similar in party banter from the KotB NPC followers, just so you remember they are there (and, in time, some alignment specific behaviour - good characters resisting evil acts, for instance). What do other people think of BG-style banter?

I admit to liking the NPC banter, it just made things a bit more lively and more engaging.

After many years of party-based RPGs, what BG did with the inter-party chatter was quite refreshing. I realise that now some can see it as a bit cliched or corny (it is a D&D game, after all! ), but I still like it.

ShiningTed said:

What do other people think of BG-style banter?

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Always reminded me of "The Sims: Babysitters" so as you might guess I hated it. I don't mind party members talking every once in a while. Some humorous or sarcastic comments from time to time are certainly very welcome but BG or KotOR definitely took it a bit too far IMHO. I do not want to be the mediator, divorce lawyer or shrink of some computer controlled pixels. Thanks but no.

I am pretty much in agreement with Moriendor about the biowarean banter style--but I enjoyed the NPC interaction in PS:T very much. Being able to "talk" within your party, to get their backstories and their "opinions" and advice, made the NPC's more effective, gave you an investment in them and made the party as a whole a more living entity.

But it really depends heavily on two things, the "personality" of the NPC, and the quality of the writing.

Like Mo, I get irritated and distracted by NPC's with an immersion breaking agenda, and in BG it seemed like they always chose to initiate the dialogue sequence, which in itself is not a problem but somehow it was always at the most inopportune moment possible; i.e., walking into a bandit ambush or some such.

xSamhainx said:

Hmm, I think i remember that particular lesson, professor Roqua. Was that the pickpocket waitress incident?

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Yeah. You are my best student. Looks like someone's getting an A+

Dhruin,

I half agree. I liked homlet, and I thought Nulb was great, if too short and not enough. The moathouse was perfect, especially after the Lovonia (sp) mod. I agree, the temple was a little much unless you had an evil party, but has some great areas such as the whole level that the prince was jailed in. And there was far too many trash, filler, fights, but they stuck to the module when it came to that.

I liked all the mods added. I like the idea of having BG style banter with the recuitable npcs. At the very least I want to be able to create 4 party members, and include all the banter you want for the other recuitbale npc slots. But, if there is a banter mod I missed a lot of it since I can increase the amount of party slots with the toffee (or front end, whatever the name is) and do. I guess I'll have to try in out next time. I am 100% adverse to only creating one character, and my absolute bare minimum would be 4. No less. That leaves 3 recruitables and plenty of opportunity for yackity-smackity and romance and lovey dovey crap. I think that's a fair comprimise for future rpgs made, and should be made into law.

Also, I can see why you wouldn't like ironman since your strategic and tactical prowess and ability to min-max pales in comparison to my God-like ability (which would be more credible if I ever beat ToEE on Ironman. I actually did by accident one time because in the temple there is a stairs going right down to the end that must have been added in with one of the mods. I don;t consider that a win because of the ending it was, it was more like my game was cut short by mistake). What if it wasn't ironman, but a system that didn't allow you to reload? Like I heard DS 2 had, but of course changed for the game, ds 2's system I'm guessing was to make the game easier somehow. That way you get the best of both worlds. I don't think anyone could complain about that, besides the people that save and reload nonstp to try every possible outcoming before sticking to one (like I do unless I can't because of ironman, which is why I love ironman).

Also, 18 months. What they did in 18 months is amazing. I don't think this point can be stressed enough. You have to give credit for coming out was what I, and a lot of others, consider a masterpiece, and a lot of other people think it is a good game, if not great.

I thought it a good game, with the Co8 mod, but since I only ever play Good parties, it did get tedious towards the end!!

On the topic of BG banter, only in very small doses to add some flavor, or perhaps as an opportunity to learn more important information, and only for the NPC's. Never my created chars.

Biowarian banter was utterly magnificent and over the top in Baldur's Gate. Verbalicious.

Imo, one main letdown for NWN was the regression to less elaborate dialogue sequences, lack of hyper-enunciation and little or no bombastic oratory.

The Irenicusian megavillain linear anchor, in the high fantasy pseudo-medieval chaotic Forgotten Realm, was particularly suited for and WITH a certain, indulgent, ad nauseum high brow.

But of course, trashing it is your artistic right, as is trashing spinach in Lasagna !

(Iow, subjective impression does not an Objective argument or refutation make.)

That being said, I'd like to see a more moderate or even minimalist implementation of dialogue in *other* Rpg's, and hopefully most would agree, that variety is the spice of Rpg life. Tastes, opinions, and stylistic preferences vary tremendously. As they should, and always will.

As for the topic of how each individual gamer "should" play (or configure) their game ... how about some more open-ended acceptance of the stylistic dynamic here as well. We're all unique individuals, so our approach to maximize our rp experience will likely *also* be uniquely individual, rather than according to a collective, all-encompassing, blanket approach deemed mandatory for all.

The ironman approach is *one* valid approach. But one need not discount other approaches which don't have such an extreme mistake/penalty configuration.

Of course, playing on the easiest difficulty setting and/or saving every 15 seconds and reloading every 30, makes the Rpg experience more like a First Person Shooter mindless & shallow clickfest, but I and many others don't see the need to gravitate to *either* extreme.

It never hurts to have options. People don't have to use them. I have no issues with saves and reloads, but if like roqua, they need to be saved from themselves to avoid the broad path of least resistance leading to rpg damnation, having ironman mode there adds a dimension. I've gotten used to dying over the years.(At my age, that's probably useful)