Avadon - Released on iPad

txa1265 said:

Wow … what a bunch of whiny, entitled spoiled rotten brats. I would expect a bit more intelligence and maturity here, but then again, I suppose not based on so much in recent years. It is why I don't come here much anymore … and this was a great reminder of that.

Then again, with this crew there was *NO WAY* that Vogel could win.

Look - 99% of you are blindly anti-Apple frothing zealots, so there is nothing to see for you, so just piss off and let those with an actual interest in discussing things have an area to do so without the the mindless trolls cluttering up any thread having to do with something on an Apple product for once.

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This is ridiculous. You’re having steroid rage for people being angry for a legitimate reason? I personally don’t give a shit about pc vs mac vs anything. I buy PC games only (and Wii games for my kids, and the old lady sometimes). But if a game was sold for $60 bucks on the PC and $24 on the PS3, PC gamers would have a right to be angry. Mac users would have the right to be angry if a PC game sold for $10 and their port sold for $25. And just FYI I don’t get angry when games are sold cheaper in third world countries.

I won’t ask for my money back for buying Avadon for 150% more because I’m a PC user, but I sure as hell won’t buy another spiderweb game if they come out with a $10 version for another platform, regardless of what that platform may be.

As an indie developer he should know you don’t piss on your current market while trying to expand into other markets. He might find the opportunity cost of expansion is too costly. Or, maybe he’ll make a ton of money through this platform and drop the customers who have carried him to this point. I know a good way of doing that—charge them 150% more.

I have a new rule which is to not buy games without price parity between platforms. I’ll never pirate a spiderweb game—but I sure as shit don’t have to buy them anymore.

I honestly don’t care what the market for another platform is like. All I care about is if I’m paying the same price or not. In my experience people with iPods are the whiney, entitled spoiled rotten brats. Starbuck drinking pansy-ass cupcakes.

And the steroid rage injected ramblings of egotistical attack fiends who support disparate markets for no reason other than anger about people not liking a certain platform is a better reason not to come to this site often than the one you stated. If that is acting with intelligence and maturity, count me out.

Gorath said:

The pricing was a calculated business decision with good reasons behind it.

If some people think he owes them a lower price on PC & Mac now, or even some compensation in one form or the other … sorry guys that's just not how it works.
Maybe Jeff will learn to sell the different prices better for his next game, but apart from that the complaints will have no influence.Generally he doesn't talk about his pricing.

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Did he calculate lost future sales on PC and Mac? And I don't think he owes me a lower price. He owes me at least the courtesy of charging me the same price he charges the rest of his customer's here in the US for supporting him all these years.

Do you think people shouldn’t shop at Wal-Mart if they find their business practices shady?

Unrestigered said:

But if a game was sold for $60 bucks on the PC and $24 on the PS3, PC gamers would have a right to be angry.

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That is also a specious argument - those are 'equal' platforms, whereas iOS is considered a 'lesser' platform like Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile, WebOS, etc.

But taking your point - you are saying that every console gamer who has ever paid $60 for a game ported to the PC (except for Modern Warfare 2, Black Ops, Crysis 2 and a couple of others) has the right to be angry ... right?

If you say 'yes' I cede you point and fully expect that you have been campaigning against that injustice and sending an extra $10 for every game you bought for $50 on the PC. Because that would only be fair, and as a champion against injustice I'd expect nothing less of you.

Unrestigered said:

Mac users would have the right to be angry if a PC game sold for $10 and their port sold for $25.

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You mean how Bioshock sells on PC for <$10 and on Mac for almost $40? Or pretty much any other Mac game ported from PC you could find?

But of course, if they chose to mention that, wouldn't that make them "whiney, entitled spoiled rotten brats. Starbuck drinking pansy-ass cupcakes"?

Unrestigered said:

I won’t ask for my money back for buying Avadon for 150% more because I’m a PC user, but I sure as hell won’t buy another spiderweb game if they come out with a $10 version for another platform, regardless of what that platform may be.

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Again, the choice is yours, but pretty much every developer releasing multi-platform has 'pricing per platform'. The only thing new here is that it 'has come to our world'.

Unrestigered said:

I have a new rule which is to not buy games without price parity between platforms. I’ll never pirate a spiderweb game—but I sure as shit don’t have to buy them anymore

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No, you don't have to buy them anymore.

So you cannot buy games from:
- EA (including Bioware, etc)
- Activision (including Blizzard, etc)
- UbiSoft
- Larian
- Piranha Bytes
- Bethsoft
- PopCap
- and pretty much any other publisher who releases on more than one platform.

Unrestigered said:

I honestly don’t care what the market for another platform is like. All I care about is if I’m paying the same price or not. In my experience people with iPods are the whiney, entitled spoiled rotten brats. Starbuck drinking pansy-ass cupcakes.

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While ignoring the insult directed my way, in a way I agree. I have written repeatedly elsewhere about the destructive nature of the 'App Store' mentality and what it is doing to pricing possibilities in the overall game market.

It isn't a simple problem, as complex games still cost loads of time and money to make, and what we are seeing more and more is core monetization on other platforms followed by 'profit through volume' releases on the App Store. Avadon is FAR from unique in that regard.

The problem with "All I care about is if I’m paying the same price or not" is that it basically says 'I don't care if the developer goes out of business, I don't want anyone ever getting this game for less than me'. if followed to logical conclusion. Because what is different about someone getting the iPad Avadon for 50% of Mac Avadon ... and say me getting Sims Medieval for 50% off sale 2 weeks after release? In fact, those who paid $50 for the Sims game were much more directly screwed due to the quick time after release for the sale ... and that it is the same platform.

Full disclosure - as I mentioned, I beta tested. And I gave Jeff unsolicited advice on pricing. I suggested that I thought $9.99 would be attractive and that much beyond $12.99 might be an issue. I also suggested that the way around a demo might be to do an in-game purchase ... but I think that based on how little of games most iOS users tend to play he was smart not to go that route.

txa1265 said:

As for the rest … I will write about the cannibalistic tendencies of socalled fans of RPG elsewhere … -

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How long have you been a socalled RPG fan again?

Unrestigered said:

How long have you been a socalled RPG fan again?

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30 years since Winzardry on my Apple ][+, but the fact that I like using a Mac as well as PC and hope for decent RPGs on the iPad means that I have tried to reform a bit through the years. But I am as bad about lambasting games for 'consolization' and 'regression' as anyone else.

If you say 'yes' I cede you point and fully expect that you have been campaigning against that injustice and sending an extra $10 for every game you bought for $50 on the PC. Because that would only be fair, and as a champion against injustice I'd expect nothing less of you.

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Maybe, but I wouldn’t know because I’ve never played any of those games—I play crpgs exclusively. And by crpgs I mean actual ones. But it seems like that disparate pricing would be a valid source of anger.

You mean how Bioshock sells on PC for <$10 and on Mac for almost $40? Or pretty much any other Mac game ported from PC you could find?

But of course, if they chose to mention that, wouldn't that make them "whiney, entitled spoiled rotten brats. Starbuck drinking pansy-ass cupcakes"?

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Again, I wouldn’t know because I only play crpgs. But it seems like that disparate pricing would be a valid source of anger.

Again, the choice is yours, but pretty much every developer releasing multi-platform has 'pricing per platform'. The only thing new here is that it 'has come to our world'.

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A 150% different pricing for the same game? If ME3 came out on “one of the lesser platforms” it probably wouldn’t be nearly the same game as the PC game.

So you cannot buy games from:
- EA (including Bioware, etc)
- Activision (including Blizzard, etc)
- UbiSoft
- Larian
- Piranha Bytes
- Bethsoft
- PopCap
- and pretty much any other publisher who releases on more than one platform.

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Another good thing I like crpgs, which as far as I know Blizzard has only ever made one of, and it’s an mmorpg. I can’t stand BioWare’s rpgs, but I did like ME1 (so I guess I’ll have to check the pricing on ME3 which I did plan on buying). I am neither a fan of the Gothics, nor the Divinities. I’ve never heard of PopCap, and I disliked The Witcher 1 so I will not be buying the second one. I wouldn’t even bother pirating a Bethesda fake-rpg crap game. I will probably end up buying SWtOR but that is a PC exclusive.

In fact, almost all the games I buy are PC exclusive. This is the price of having impeccable taste: you just don’t have that many games to play.

The problem with "All I care about is if I’m paying the same price or not" is that it basically says 'I don't care if the developer goes out of business, I don't want anyone ever getting this game for less than me'. if followed to logical conclusion. Because what is different about someone getting the iPad Avadon for 50% of Mac Avadon … and say me getting Sims Medieval for 50% off sale 2 weeks after release? In fact, those who paid $50 for the Sims game were much more directly screwed due to the quick time after release for the sale … and that it is the same platform.

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I wouldn’t mind if he lowered all sales prices to match a market when he released to that market. All I would have to do is wait some months before buying. Name a “higher” platform I can’t wait some months after release to get a better deal on a AAA title? The same is true with early adaptors of other markets.

Markets are made out of consumers. I dislike disparate treatment. And if I feel a business is treating me unfairly for their prospective gain, I no longer support that business. And I stopped caring if the developer goes out of business when he showed he would rather tap a new market at my expense than treat me fairly. The money isn’t the problem; my values as a consumer are the problem. I do not feel it is fair for me to pay $25 for the same game someone else got for $10 just because of the platform. Lesser or higher platform has no significant difference in regards to this game as all versions of it are the same.

Were people wrong when they didn’t buy ToEE because of the bugs? Or when Bloodlines was criticized for bugs? Was that a cannibalistic market? Well, Troika is no longer around, so I guess people should’ve sucked it up and just bought the buggy games. I did. I would’ve loved if others did as well, and Troika was still putting games out. But I can’t rationally expect other people to buy buggy games if they dislike buggy games; and I sure wouldn’t have had the right to be angry with them for it (even though i definitely was—I just didn't have the right to be). But I, myself, would much rather have a buggy Troika game than pretty much anything else that came out this century.

My wife has an iPad that just sits there doing nothing, but she also likes Starbucks so it all adds up. I’d also stop going to Dunkin’ Donuts if they decided to sell me my coffee for 150% more because of the car I used to drive through their drive-thru in. And I’d save a ton of money if I stopped buying DD’s coffee so I kind of hope they do that.

Unrestigered said:

My wife has an iPad that just sits there doing nothing,.

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As I said before, no one dictates what something can and cannot be used for ... but because someone doesn't use something doesn't make it not useful. If someone decided to buy a car solely to listen to the radio, that is there choice ... but postulating that a BMW is useless because you could buy a better radio for 1/5000th the price seems silly.

Wasting money is a personal choice - I have done more than my fair share. However, postulating on usefulness of a piece of hardware due to either a choice or inability on your wife's part to make use of the myriad modes of functionality makes no sense. There is no need to 'prove' that an iPad is useful any more than I need to prove a laptop or smartphone or mainframe or other device is useful. It simply is ... but unless actually put to use it remains a waste of money. Sort of like buying a top-line Alienware to check email and Facebook.

For someone with no need to prove those products are useful, you seem incredibly invested in doing exactly that, txa.

What IS it with you and these things? Why can't you just be comfortable using them for whatever purpose you see fit, and let others have their opinion about them?

Have you considered why you're so personally invested? There's always a reason, you know.

As for their use, they have several - which is obvious. I think the reasons they have many detractors are entirely different than them having no use.

txa1265 said:

As I said before, no one dictates what something can and cannot be used for … but because someone doesn't use something doesn't make it not useful. If someone decided to buy a car solely to listen to the radio, that is there choice … but postulating that a BMW is useless because you could buy a better radio for 1/5000th the price seems silly.

Wasting money is a personal choice - I have done more than my fair share. However, postulating on usefulness of a piece of hardware due to either a choice or inability on your wife's part to make use of the myriad modes of functionality makes no sense. There is no need to 'prove' that an iPad is useful any more than I need to prove a laptop or smartphone or mainframe or other device is useful. It simply is … but unless actually put to use it remains a waste of money. Sort of like buying a top-line Alienware to check email and Facebook.

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The iPad could be the most useful thing ever invented, but I wouldn't know even though there is one up in my bedroom. I'll never use it. I have my computer, which does everything I can possibly want to do and I’m comfortable with it. Why would I bother?

To be 100% honest a good part of the reason why I'll never use the iPad is that I don't want to look trendy. It's the same reason I'll never wear those skinny pants so-called young men are so keen to wear nowadays. It just wasn't made for me. I've been wearing regular pants all my life, I don't see what advantage wearing ones I find distasteful would accomplish. I'd just feel stupid and insecure if I did wear them.

To each their own.

I personally think this game is ideally suited to play on the ipad while lying down on your bed! I think the power of PC/MAC is an over kill.

Personally I have no problem him selling its cheap on ipad provided I have known in advanced that it's going to be available on ipad and at such a low price. However I think most people were lead to believe that even if the game was sold on ipad (or other platforms) the price won't be so low.

DArtagnan said:

For someone with no need to prove those products are useful, you seem incredibly invested in doing exactly that, txa.

What IS it with you and these things? Why can't you just be comfortable using them for whatever purpose you see fit, and let others have their opinion about them?

Have you considered why you're so personally invested? There's always a reason, you know.

As for their use, they have several - which is obvious. I think the reasons they have many detractors are entirely different than them having no use.

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I have no need to prove them useful - as that is obvious. In fact, due to my using it everyday I have de facto discounted the null hypothesis of them being useless, so usefulness is now a universal truth.

What I am doing is no different than if there was a large chunk of the audience who came into every PC game thread and said 'PC gaming is dead you know'. Aside from getting tiresome, since it is possible to show that the null hypothesis is false since last year PC gaming grew ~20% while the console industry as a whole was flat, reminding people of that is merely stating a fact. It doesn't signal a personal attachment of 'needs to explain' proportions, just an interest and a desire for arguments to be based in fact.

'Unregistered' attempted to use the fact that his wife bought a luxury item and doesn't use it as a sort of 'proxy hammer' to prove that the products in general are useless and that their popularity given that inherent uselessness says more about the people. That is a false argument, which then is revealed to be more about his concern about appearances and a strong opposition to using anything popular.

You previously stated that I wasn't allowed to tell someone whether or not iOS products were useful, and yet now you state that their usefulness is obvious. I agree with your latter statement, and feel that it is not some personal vendetta to correct an assertion of uselessness as part of an argument invalidating the Vogel Pricing Model.

My personal attachment is to platform fairness, and while I was wrong for earlier casting a broad brush on everyone around bashing 'anything but PC', there is a clear cast of characters that changes over time who DO enter these threads with a particular set of biases. My own bias is that while I am PC centric for gaming, using a Mac or iPad or Android or Linux is an equally valid choice and shouldn't subject a person to ridicule in every thread at RPGWatch.

I think he's both spot on with the pricing and absolutely correct to charge what he likes for it given the different markets involved.

If you don't believe a game is worth what is being charged for it, then don't play it. If the PC game is worth the money then get it, if its not, then don't. The price of other versions has absolutely nothing to do with your own value for money argument - the ipad release can't suddenly make your PC version less good.

kalniel said:

I think he's both spot on with the pricing and absolutely correct to charge what he likes for it given the different markets involved.

If you don't believe a game is worth what is being charged for it, then don't play it. If the PC game is worth the money then get it, if its not, then don't. The price of other versions has absolutely nothing to do with your own value for money argument - the ipad release can't suddenly make your PC version less good.

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10 pages later, someone finally gets it!

ToddMcF2002 said:

10 pages later, someone finally gets it!

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Several of us have said essentially the same thing, but there is bitter disagreement that the price on one platform is inextricably tied to the value on all platforms. Most multiplatform gamers who also use handhelds and smartphones have abandoned such notions, but as I said Avalon is really a new era in many ways for the RPG community.

txa1265 said:

but as I said Avalon is really a new era in many ways for the RPG community.

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Avalon? Have you been reading Mists of Avalon and confused the two

Seriously, you guys are right. If it is selling as well as Vogel says it's selling then this will open the doors for many other indie devs who struggle to make a profit on the PC. Which in turn will mean more indie RPG developers. Which in turn means more gaming goodness.

My ego isn't so big that I can't admit when I'm wrong. I just wish Vogel wouldn't be so damn smug about it or forget that he used to have the exact opposite attitude towards pricing that he has now. A simple I was wrong would be sufficient. Monkeys will fly out of my butt before that happens though. The dude can never be wrong.

Over zealous autocorrect on my Android phone ...

I think e sees the situation as no different than Puzzle Quest or others ... PQ2 cost $20 on PC but $10 on iPad at release ... it is very common, and while he has apologized for making people upset by following market realities, it is also a changing marketplace and when he spoke before there was no iPad.

skavenhorde said:

Avalon? Have you been reading Mists of Avalon and confused the two

Seriously, you guys are right. If it is selling as well as Vogel says it's selling then this will open the doors for many other indie devs who struggle to make a profit on the PC. Which in turn will mean more indie RPG developers. Which in turn means more gaming goodness.

My ego isn't so big that I can't admit when I'm wrong. I just wish Vogel wouldn't be so damn smug about it or forget that he used to have the exact opposite attitude towards pricing that he has now. A simple I was wrong would be sufficient. Monkeys will fly out of my butt before that happens though. The dude can never be wrong.

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Gaming goodness?

I think you're underestimating the negative influence this market is having.

The more people who buy his games, the more he will want more people buying his games.

It's the nature of things.

This will result in more streamlining for a broader audience.

In any case, I would never begrudge a man the reward for his work.

I don't support this market mindset, though, because I see people flooding the market with one bullshit game after the other. It's not about wanting to create great games, except for the purposes of selling them.

Essentially, I've never been a fan of greed driving developers - but I'm platform neutral in that area as well.

Obviously, people who think highly of these games will not see a problem with their designs.

Avadon may be an exception, in that it seems reasonably deep and complex - but I promise you here and now, it will not represent the kind of game the market will generally motivate developers to make. The prices are too low to really bother making the kind of game we all want. Beyond that, even if the iPad 2 is a strong platform for precisely this kind of game - it's even less suitable for deep and complex games than consoles are - in terms of potential for great and immersive games.

Vogel will start streamlining like everyone in that position does. Nothing wrong with that, except it will mean less interesting games for me and those like me.

But don't take my word for it. Just watch Vogel from now on, and we'll talk in a few years.

I was thinking that too, but then it occurred to me that a good developer doesn't have to be a struggling artist. I hope.

The lesson I'm taking from this and hope to be proven correct in the future is that iPad users want deep and meaningful rpgs. The best quality RPGs have always been on the PC and some on the MAC. If a developer can make it for the PC and iPad and not have to worry about going broke then all the better. They can keep making deeper more meaningful RPGs.

I'm hoping that not all developers are like Bioware and ditch us the second they can.

Edit: I'd just like to comment that no matter what people think of Vogel the man knows how to get people talking about him. Case in point this newsbit thread.

Newsbits almost never have these many posts. We're up to page ten now. Has anyone mentioned Hitler? I'm curious if Godwin's Law is in effect yet.

txa1265 said:

Over zealous autocorrect on my Android phone …

I think e sees the situation as no different than Puzzle Quest or others … PQ2 cost $20 on PC but $10 on iPad at release … it is very common, and while he has apologized for making people upset by following market realities, it is also a changing marketplace and when he spoke before there was no iPad.

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I *think*, you are not getting why people are complaining about price. They are not complaining about the reduction of price per sec, but they didn't know about it or even expected it when they bought the PC/MAC version.

This is due to previous stance of the developer on price. I think if people have known about the price difference in advance before they bought the PC/MAC version, they won't be complaining so much, even if they did, it won't have much merit.

'Unregistered' attempted to use the fact that his wife bought a luxury item and doesn't use it as a sort of 'proxy hammer' to prove that the products in general are useless and that their popularity given that inherent uselessness says more about the people. That is a false argument, which then is revealed to be more about his concern about appearances and a strong opposition to using anything popular.

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That is funny. I like this and I like your style. I also like to make grandiose claims based on little snippets, and that was really good way of doing it. I salute you! And now we continue

First, a luxury item is a product that has a demand increasing proportionally more than income. If an item isn’t a necessity, which has a demand independent of income, it is generally a luxury (in economics). In marketing it would be a higher-priced tier of a good or service in any given category, with pricing generally based on superficial characteristics and not functionality. So, what is the category an iPad belongs in? Mobil devices with software additions and internet capacity? So it is in the same category as a pc and mac laptop? But, higher-priced?

But, you also say it has a “lesser operating system.” Lesser: Smaller in amount, value, or importance, especially in a comparison between two things. According to the first thing to pop up in my search engine an Operating System is software, consisting of programs and data, that runs on computers, manages computer hardware resources, and provides common services for execution of various application software. Operating system is the most important type of system software in a computer system.

So, because I already own an economic luxury item (a PC) which I can run Outlook on and receive my work emails, and run Citrix on and have access to my computer crap at work, I should also spend more money on an iPad. Even though an iPad has less functionality for my computing needs, costs a hell of a lot more than a PC having the same limited functionality (like a netbook for $100), is a marketing luxury item which means I’m spending more for nothing, but I must also be saddled with a lesser operating system, which is the most important type of system software in a computer system.

Even though I am spending more for less with the iPad, I can keep my chin up because I can get the same exact game I spent $25 for on the PC for $10. I guess we should all hold hands and jump up and down exclaiming, “AWESOME!!!,”all enthusiastically.

And I never said the iPads have no use—there main use is that they make trendy people look more trendy as they do trendy internet things. By your own words they are an inferior and lesser product compared to the other options in the category they belong to.

And there is a huge distinction between trendy and popular. I like some popular things, I dislike all trendy things (besides ME3 and SWtOR which are trendy things I plan on buying). You can’t like tight-pants yourself, can you?

And just FYI before this thread I was completely indifferent about the iPad and just chalked it up to just more stupid crap all these stupid kids like nowadays. It viewed it the exact same way I view Justin Bibber—nonsense for little kids who don’t know better. But now I know it’s a really sucky laptop or a futuristic looking netbook but with a worse OS.