Why respecting Christianity without friction is so dangerous

Lucky Day said:

I long for that day when Jemmy has finally on his knees to that alter before God holding himself and saying, "I'm sorry" and then all that bitterness starts being washed away while he accepts the forgiveness of Jesus.

"And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." -Acts 26:14

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And then I was like, wut

Rithrandil said:

Sorry, blind faith and ignorance is not to be respected - I'll tolerate it when it's not in the public sphere but if it wants to influence policy I'm going to be completely justified in attacking it.

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Can we assume then that you feel you have no blind faith or ignorance at all? Or that yours is exceptional, somehow, and not part of the thing that you see as trying to influence policy?

So that is what deserves respect?

Rithrandil said:

Agreed.

Agreed.


I dunno, Rick Santorum served two senate terms.



Not every idea is worthy of respect. Creationism and religion aren't on equal footing with science and rationality. It's not always worthwhile to engage in a debate - they've already lost and just ignore any evidence to the contrary.

I don't respect Mormonism and I don't respect Scientology. If a Scientologist wants to tell me about body thetans, I'm going to smile politely, nod, and slowly back away towards the nearest exit. I don't respect Communism or Fascism - but at least those have some quasi-rational ideas buried somewhere beneath their ideology. Why does Christianity deserve respect? Because it's popular? Just because 1.9 billion people follow something doesn't mean I have to respect their belief if it's not founded on evidence, logic, or reasoning.

Sorry, blind faith and ignorance is not to be respected - I'll tolerate it when it's not in the public sphere but if it wants to influence policy I'm going to be completely justified in attacking it.

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Well, sure I wouldn't respect Christianity if its only spokespersons were creationist politicians. But they're not the only Christians out there. Many are intelligent and can debate their point and they don't follow blind faith, but rather searched and read and came to their own determination.

Lucky Day said:

I long for that day when Jemmy has finally on his knees to that alter before God holding himself and saying, "I'm sorry" and then all that bitterness starts being washed away while he accepts the forgiveness of Jesus.
"And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." -Acts 26:14

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That would be Jemy M. short for Jeremiah "Jemy" Murphy. A roleplaying character of mine when I was 12 years old that happened to be a mix between Han Solo and Luke Skywalker.

Now, are you ready to accept Jemy as your lord and savior? Remember; 1 Corinthians 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Squeek said:

Can we assume then that you feel you have no blind faith or ignorance at all?

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I don't have blind faith in anything. I am, though, ignorant about plenty of things. I, however, do not consider this a virtue (as religion does) and generally make efforts to correct my ignorance, or I listen to and respect experts who are more versed in their subject matter than I.

Squeek said:

Or that yours is exceptional, somehow, and not part of the thing that you see as trying to influence policy?

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See above. I've never claimed to be omniscient or to have the answers to everything - which once again differentiates me from a good deal of religious believers.

Squeek said:

So that is what deserves respect?

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I don't really care if you respect me or not - or if anyone does, for that matter. I'm not demanding respect of my beliefs based solely on the fact that they are my beliefs. If I say something with absolutely nothing behind it I fully expect someone to correct me or tell me where I am going wrong.

Thoth said:

Well, sure I wouldn't respect Christianity if its only spokespersons were creationist politicians. But they're not the only Christians out there. Many are intelligent and can debate their point and they don't follow blind faith, but rather searched and read and came to their own determination.

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Granted, but if they still rely on the Bible to make an argument other then...well, really, a theological one (or some sort of moral one), I'm not sure how that's not blind faith.

For the record most of my friends are religious, most of those are Christians, and a good deal of those are literal evangelicals. I don't respect Christianity or any religion. I do respect a good deal of its followers, though.

We all make prejudgments. It's just the way we work. We all believe in stuff that gap our knowledge simply because we cannot know everything.

However, to be open minded is to be prepared to change your opinion just like that when being exposed to new information. When you believe in something while rejecting empirical belief, and do not even try to get yourself more informed on a subject, then I say that would be "blind faith" and ignorant. When you are making important choices that might lead to great consequences, based on such unverified, unchangeable opinions, you are putting both yourself and others in danger.

Which reminds me... Stalin's scientists actually told Stalin collectivization was a bad idea that wouldn't work.

Sorry about misspelling your handle, Jemy.

The scripture I quote is talking about Paul and how his hate for Christianity, though rationally justified by the law, eventually made him see the truth in it. It was his "Road to Damascus" experience so to speak. I see you walking the same path.

The scripture you quote to me is talking about the irony of how God has chosen to spread the Gospel through preaching. Others, similar to yourself, called this foolishness.

Lucky Day said:

I see you walking the same path.

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Yay!

Although... I lost faith in Christianity after reading up on it's history and eventually decided to leave the entire religion on moral grounds. I have since educated myself on other religions, political philosophies, history, anthropology and psychology and ended up deciding that I couldn't be pragmatic to religion in general since they create a chauvinist discourse that is an obstacle to globalism and universal human happiness.

JemyM said:

Yay!

Although... I lost faith in Christianity after reading up on it's history and eventually decided to leave the entire religion on moral grounds. I have since educated myself on other religions, political philosophies, history, anthropology and psychology and ended up deciding that I couldn't be pragmatic to religion in general since they create a chauvinist discourse that is an obstacle to globalism and universal human happiness.

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All of them do this? Every single one of them?

Thoth said:

All of them do this? Every single one of them?

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Consider an advice or a good philosophical point. You take it, you might absorb it to your life, and you go on.

Consider a religion. You take it, you stay there.

Religions aren't about absorbing or expanding your understandings of the universe or your spiritual self, expanding the wisdom as you go along, absorbing ideas from all around the globe, sharing them to mankind in general. They are closed systems in which you are supposed to live your life. The only exception might be Unitarian Universalism as far as I know (which is actually a religion I might consider myself a member of). If you begin to compare religions and freely explore different religions, taking the good stuff and throwing out the bad stuff, you aren't really a part of a religion.

Take Buddhism for example. There are lots of good stuff to get out of Buddhism and they have some really strong points that might improve your life if you understand them. But Buddhism contains a lot of garbage as well, and if you are going to be a real Buddhist you give up quite a lot of your attachment to the rest of the world, accept all the garbage, and live in a closed system.

Whenever you separate yourself from the world and stop using humanity itself as the core of your perspective (replacing humanity with God, The Brahma, Karma etc) you have given up seeking universal human happiness and you are also automatically one step towards chauvinism due to the way our brains work, many steps if your religion is one of the exclusive ones such as the Abrahamic religions.

Having said that, political ideologies actually tend to have similar problems, at least if you are politically active.

JemyM said:

Consider an advice or a good philosophical point. You take it, you might absorb it to your life, and you go on.

Consider a religion. You take it, you stay there.

Religions aren't about absorbing or expanding your understandings of the universe or your spiritual self, expanding the wisdom as you go along, absorbing ideas from all around the globe, sharing them to mankind in general.

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Why aren't they? Because you say they aren't? Look, it's ok to admit that you learn something from religion. You can still be an atheist, you don't instantly convert.

They are closed systems in which you are supposed to live your life.

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Christianity has many different interpretations, some of which are rather interesting, not to mention some great thinkers and authors happen to be Christian. I'm not sure what you mean by "supposed to live your life."

The only exception might be Unitarian Universalism as far as I know (which is actually a religion I might consider myself a member of).

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They're good people, I've dealt with some volunteers before from them. Some are rather arrogant, but then every religion (or lack of) has people like that.

If you begin to compare religions and freely explore different religions, taking the good stuff and throwing out the bad stuff, you aren't really a part of a religion.

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But you can interpret things differently then other people. For example, some Christians choose to focus on stuff from the old testament. They use this as proof that gays are bad and unworthy for example. Fast forward to the new Testament and we have Jesus saying no one is bad or unworthy. I believe you can safely ignore certain parts of the bible if they are no longer relevant. As Jesus said "You have heard of old..." or something along those lines...

Whenever you separate yourself from the world and stop using humanity itself as the core of your perspective (replacing humanity with God, The Brahma, Karma etc) you have given up seeking universal human happiness and you are also automatically one step towards chauvinism due to the way our brains work, many steps if your religion is one of the exclusive ones such as the Abrahamic religions.

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Most major religions are focused entirely on humanity. Serving others and what not. Yes we can look at examples of the religious NOT serving humanity, but then we can look at examples of atheists, or white people, or whatever not serving humanity. Does this prove anything? Not really, because groups of people aren't all the same.

As for chauvinism, again, some certainly are, but that doesn't mean that it's the general rule that anyone that is religious must also be chauvinistic. I'm not sure what you mean about "how our brains work" though.

Having said that, political ideologies actually tend to have similar problems, at least if you are politically active.

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Politics corrupt everything it touches. The LAST thing any religion needs is to get political figures hijacking it for whatever crap they're trying to spew.

Thoth said:

Why aren't they? Because you say they aren't? Look, it's ok to admit that you learn something from religion. You can still be an atheist, you don't instantly convert.

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Learn something? Like what? Religion's produced great cultural achievements - the cathedrals, paintings, etc. That's about it. It teaches nothing about morality or how the universe works.

Thoth said:

Christianity has many different interpretations, some of which are rather interesting, not to mention some great thinkers and authors happen to be Christian. I'm not sure what you mean by "supposed to live your life."

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Are any of those still alive?

Thoth said:

But you can interpret things differently then other people. For example, some Christians choose to focus on stuff from the old testament. They use this as proof that gays are bad and unworthy for example. Fast forward to the new Testament and we have Jesus saying no one is bad or unworthy. I believe you can safely ignore certain parts of the bible if they are no longer relevant. As Jesus said "You have heard of old..." or something along those lines...

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The new testament also invented hell, condones slavery, and also teaches us to "love our enemies" and encourages pacifism. It also says that all humans are born miserable, evil unredeemable wretches condemned to die and suffer for all of eternity unless we give absolute and utter praise to the megalomaniac dictator that supposedly created us all. Sorry, I think all of those things are pretty horrible.

Thoth said:

Most major religions are focused entirely on humanity. Serving others and what not. Yes we can look at examples of the religious NOT serving humanity, but then we can look at examples of atheists, or white people, or whatever not serving humanity. Does this prove anything? Not really, because groups of people aren't all the same.

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Actually, the point of the Abrahamic religions is to serve and glorify their god. Everything else is pretty meaningless.

Thoth said:

Politics corrupt everything it touches. The LAST thing any religion needs is to get political figures hijacking it for whatever crap they're trying to spew.

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Heh, I think accusing politics of corrupting religion is pretty amusing. That's like saying the sewer muck contaminated the nuclear waste site.

Thoth said:

Why aren't they? Because you say they aren't?

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Have you ever heard a religion that asks you to learn about other religions, learn more philosophy, collect empirical data or try to come up with answers to questions? Religions tend to promote themselves as the path to enlightenment or salvation, offering answers to whatever question you might have.

Thoth said:

Christianity has many different interpretations, some of which are rather interesting, not to mention some great thinkers and authors happen to be Christian. I'm not sure what you mean by "supposed to live your life."

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Each one tend to claim to be the "right one" so you do not need to explore more after getting into it.

Thoth said:

But you can interpret things differently then other people. For example, some Christians choose to focus on stuff from the old testament. They use this as proof that gays are bad and unworthy for example. Fast forward to the new Testament and we have Jesus saying no one is bad or unworthy. I believe you can safely ignore certain parts of the bible if they are no longer relevant. As Jesus said "You have heard of old..." or something along those lines...

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Sigh. You completely missed my point. Yeah, here you have all sorts of subgroups that each one hold unique opinions on one book! Building communities around one interpretion on one book is not the same as being open to and absorbing ideas from all over the world from all sorts of books, cultures and experiences.

Thoth said:

Most major religions are focused entirely on humanity. Serving others and what not. Yes we can look at examples of the religious NOT serving humanity, but then we can look at examples of atheists, or white people, or whatever not serving humanity. Does this prove anything? Not really, because groups of people aren't all the same.

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You are still not getting it. No, religions aren't focusing on humanity, they interact with humanity while following dogma. And your comment on "atheists" and "white people" made little sense as neither carry ideas, perspectives, reflections, philosophies, answers.

Thoth said:

As for chauvinism, again, some certainly are, but that doesn't mean that it's the general rule that anyone that is religious must also be chauvinistic. I'm not sure what you mean about "how our brains work" though.

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Identify yourself as a member of a subgroup that deals with good, morality, enlightenment etc and you have already made yourself a part of the pack.

Thoth said:

Politics corrupt everything it touches. The LAST thing any religion needs is to get political figures hijacking it for whatever crap they're trying to spew.

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Many religions have strong political agendas commanded in their core. They are ancient political ideologies after all.

Rithrandil said:

Learn something? Like what? Religion's produced great cultural achievements - the cathedrals, paintings, etc. That's about it. It teaches nothing about morality or how the universe works.

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I think Christianity teaches morality just fine. As for the universe, no.

Are any of those still alive?

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Yeah I'd say they are. Hell, even a lot of the old churches like Lutherans or Methodists preach some pretty decent stuff, at least compared to some of the new age churches.

The new testament also invented hell, condones slavery, and also teaches us to "love our enemies" and encourages pacifism.

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I suppose you're referring to Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22. At first glance it appears it condones slavery, but that's not really consistent with Jesus' other messages. What it probably is referring to is people that sell themselves into servitude to pay off debts and such. The message is that they do so humbly and without hatred.

I'm not sure what you have against pacifism.

It also says that all humans are born miserable, evil unredeemable wretches condemned to die and suffer for all of eternity unless we give absolute and utter praise to the megalomaniac dictator that supposedly created us all. Sorry, I think all of those things are pretty horrible.

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It says that all humans aren't born perfect and that that is OK since perfection is wrong. So yeah, you're suppose to forgive your wife for adultery or be humble to some tough guy that wants to fight you. Pretty tough stuff to do, I agree.

Actually, the point of the Abrahamic religions is to serve and glorify their god. Everything else is pretty meaningless.

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Even in the old testament, God was pretty pissy about being glorified. You don't need tall churches and golden idols to praise God, though many don't realize this...

Heh, I think accusing politics of corrupting religion is pretty amusing. That's like saying the sewer muck contaminated the nuclear waste site.

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I'm just full of jokes!

You've charted an odd course for yourself if what you say is true and you really want to put distance between you and your old spirituality, JemyM. You're making evangelical efforts on these forums, and that's obvious, despite your case or the way you've painstakingly presented it.

The hardest part of dealing with shattered faith is the mess you're left with as a result. It would be convenient if you could just make a snap decision like "now roll sanity." But that's not how faith works, even after it's been ruined. Like it or not, you still need to deal with all the pieces, the ones that didn't just go away on their own.

If you'll pardon my saying so, my advice to someone in your shoes would be to either fix it or clean up the mess and throw it out. This middle-path choice of yours is a bad idea, I think.

Thoth said:

I think Christianity teaches morality just fine.

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Christianity teaches rules, not morality.

Thoth said:

I think Christianity teaches morality just fine. As for the universe, no.

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And I think the Bible is honestly not that much better then Mein Kampf. Any book which encourages/accepts about slavery, stoning women, stoning people for working on certain days of the week, doesn't seem to mind genocide, etc is a pretty bad place to draw moral inspiration from. It doesn't matter how evil you are, accept Jesus into your heart and he'll forgive you!

Thoth said:

Yeah I'd say they are. Hell, even a lot of the old churches like Lutherans or Methodists preach some pretty decent stuff, at least compared to some of the new age churches.

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I guess if you consider Christian theology an awesome subject then yes there are still people doing decent stuff. I think it's somewhat similar to calling yourself an expert in unicorn husbandry, however.

Thoth said:

I suppose you're referring to Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22. At first glance it appears it condones slavery, but that's not really consistent with Jesus' other messages. What it probably is referring to is people that sell themselves into servitude to pay off debts and such. The message is that they do so humbly and without hatred.

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Well, with just about three minutes of searching, I'd say these:

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." (1 Peter 2:18)

"Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him" (Ephesians 6:5-9)

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." (Titus 2:9-10)

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism." (Colossians 3:22-25)

"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed." (1 Timothy 6:1)

I would have preferred to use the King James' bible but I didn't have it handy.

Thoth said:

I'm not sure what you have against pacifism.

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It's evil. Sorry, if I see someone raping a woman in a street I'm going to stop him, with lethal force if necessary. If someone comes at me with a knife I'm not going to turn the other cheek. If the Hutu ever decided it would be a good idea to try and wipe out the Tutsi again in Rwanda it would be evil of us to sit back and smile because your god says it's a great thing to sit idly by. Pacifism is not a virtue.

Thoth said:

It says that all humans aren't born perfect and that that is OK since perfection is wrong. So yeah, you're suppose to forgive your wife for adultery or be humble to some tough guy that wants to fight you. Pretty tough stuff to do, I agree.

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And it says, therefor, that all humans will suffer for eternity in hell unless they willingly turn over their souls over to some guy who gets to arbitrarily decide what is right and wrong. I'll forgive my wife for adultery after the divorce and if some guy starts fighting me I'm going to fight back, not sit back meekly and let my wife screw the pool boy and allow the tough guy to turn my face into a work of Picasso. So yes, it is pretty tough stuff to do. So is jumping off of a bridge.

Thoth said:

Even in the old testament, God was pretty pissy about being glorified. You don't need tall churches and golden idols to praise God, though many don't realize this...

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Which is why I have to worship and praise god and insulting him is a wicked sin enough to condemn me to hell. And if I don't want to worship and praise God I get to spend an eternity suffering. Yeah, this god guy sounds like a real tolerant and non-egotistical fellow. I don't recall god ever striking down anyone for worshipping him or building nice things to him - I do recall him striking down people for choosing to endorse his competition, though. And then saying it's great to kill all the remaining men, women, and boys. But keep the virgin girls though, so you can rape them to make more followers.

JemyM said:

Have you ever heard a religion that asks you to learn about other religions, learn more philosophy, collect empirical data or try to come up with answers to questions? Religions tend to promote themselves as the path to enlightenment or salvation, offering answers to whatever question you might have.

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Well yeah, every ideology or philosophy thinks it's the shit, but what is there in the new testament saying that you're done for if you seek out other knowledge? Most of it is warnings against people using religion for their own good.

Each one tend to claim to be the "right one" so you do not need to explore more after getting into it.

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True many claim that, but you can still be Christian and not listen to them and continue to explore.

Sigh. You completely missed my point. Yeah, here you have all sorts of subgroups that each one hold unique opinions on one book! Building communities around one interpretion on one book is not the same as being open to and absorbing ideas from all over the world from all sorts of books, cultures and experiences.

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There are many books to the bible, many of which are lost, many of which have not been included. I'm interested in those books and I wish I had more time to fully explore them. Yeah the Catholic church or whomever says "no" to a lot of this stuff, but that doesn't mean you, again, can't be Christian and still explore. Christianity isn't as stringent as you make it out to be. There's a few interesting folks out there that even suggest that Jesus never intended a church or priesthood, but I probably shouldn't get into all that here...

You are still not getting it. No, religions aren't focusing on humanity, they interact with humanity while following dogma. And your comment on "atheists" and "white people" made little sense as neither carry ideas, perspectives, reflections, philosophies, answers.

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WHOA BUCKO! Sorry for not understanding your strict interpretation of other peoples religions! Dogma is exactly what Jesus was preaching against. To him, a pharisee properly going through his prayers as a ritual at the temple isn't as important as a murderer bumbling through prayers for forgiveness.

You keep using examples of Christians doing bad things and expect it to justify your hatred for them. I just thought I'd offer up some other examples of other peoples. Guess I was wrong, sorry!

Identify yourself as a member of a subgroup that deals with good, morality, enlightenment etc and you have already made yourself a part of the pack.

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What pack? I'm sorry, I don't understand.

Thoth said:

Well yeah, every ideology or philosophy thinks it's the shit, but what is there in the new testament saying that you're done for if you seek out other knowledge? Most of it is warnings against people using religion for their own good.

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To start with, the idea that Jesus is your savior (ticket to afterlife). The first commandment "you shall have no other god before me". The love god with all you got. The suggestion that you get to hell if you don't follow Jesus. The stories about what happens to people who do not follow Jesus. Come on, the New Testament is packed with that stuff. It even promotes people who are ignorant at a few places, saying God hides the truth from the wise.

Thoth said:

True many claim that, but you can still be Christian and not listen to them and continue to explore.

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You can, in theory. Religions doesn't promote that, warns against it, and if you begin to explore Buddhist and Hindu philosophy, are you really that into Christianity?

Thoth said:

There are many books to the bible, many of which are lost, many of which have not been included. I'm interested in those books and I wish I had more time to fully explore them. Yeah the Catholic church or whomever says "no" to a lot of this stuff, but that doesn't mean you, again, can't be Christian and still explore. Christianity isn't as stringent as you make it out to be. There's a few interesting folks out there that even suggest that Jesus never intended a church or priesthood, but I probably shouldn't get into all that here...

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We are talking about a minor book collection out of one geographical area in one time. If that's all you are going to need you will give up a lot. Islam have a better idea for taking care of the poor, Buddhism have a better answer to suffering, Hinduism have a better answer on unity etc.

Thoth said:

WHOA BUCKO! Sorry for not understanding your strict interpretation of other peoples religions! Dogma is exactly what Jesus was preaching against. To him, a pharisee properly going through his prayers as a ritual at the temple isn't as important as a murderer bumbling through prayers for forgiveness.

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He just replaced one with another that is still not aimed at understanding or exploring humanity.

Thoth said:

You keep using examples of Christians doing bad things and expect it to justify your hatred for them. I just thought I'd offer up some other examples of other peoples. Guess I was wrong, sorry!

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Don't be silly. If you are interpreting criticism of an ideology to hating people who ended up members of it you need to take some serious time off and ask yourself what the difference between an idea and a person is. Christianity isn't a race, it's a movement that was originated with a book known as the Bible. Suggesting that the book containing some bad ideas, some bad advice, some bad suggestions and believing that movement based on such information have the potential to go bad, is not the same as hating anyone who consider themselves a member.

Thoth said:

What pack? I'm sorry, I don't understand.

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We humans are social creatures. We usually live in groups. We have within us biological components that might make us go bad in certain conditions. If you're interest I suggest checking out social psychology and anthropology. Philip Zimbardo wrote a few books on how social situations can make us turn evil if we lack certain protection systems. One of his books is the Lucifer Effect.