Gov Perry apparently wasn't kidding concerning Texas Secession

magerette said:

Here's an interesting poll of Texans on the subject:
Rasmussen Secession Poll

Pretty much shows that most of the state has more sense than the governor.

538 has some even better reasons for them to go for it:
Hey Rick, Can We Talk?

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What would the poll have been the day after 9/11? What would the poll have been two-years ago? What will the poll be two months from now? Two-years from now? The last time Texas seceded a group that didn’t represent Texas as a whole kind of forced the hand. And the numbers of the poll pretty much represent the numbers for the aggregate of US citizens who are being marginalized and called racists for disagreeing with how the country is being managed. At least 1/3rd of non-retired Texans are fully or partially dependent on the government to keep not working, so have no stake in secession.

But, just the mere fact of Texas discussing it hopefully will open cult’s eyes that people don’t like being marginalized by a bunch of pompous, uppity, elitist, self-righteous jackass tyrant cultists, and maybe meddling so much isn’t so fantastic. But probably not so we’ll have to check back on those poll numbers in a couple months.

And as for the second part, fantastic. I'm sure it would be an even better situation than that paints as the population of the US and Texas would change. It's not like only Texans would stay, I for one would move there. And as stated, the people who are dependent on the state for survival would move to the US. And the people who aren't too keen on breaking their back to provide a living for the lazy mouses probably still won't be keen and might just move to Texas. Why would they stay? Loyalty to a country that calls them racists and terrorists? Sure.

Unrestigered said:

You are very certain of the willingness of people you know to murder others. If soldiers blindly defended the constitution any state that could be seen as imposing limitations on the 2nd amendment would have been invaded a long time ago. And the question of Texas’s unique right to secede was never brought up in the Civil War. And the state had a split, Governor Sam Houston was a unionist. That’s a bad example. And a different time. What was the definition of torture back then? What happened to traitors. Why would you hold the military to a higher standard to support and defend the constitution than our politicians?

Have you done a two-month field problem, or sat in a LP/OP for three days talking about anything and everything, including what you would do if Texas seceded? Would you have obeyed orders in a Wako-like situation, etc. I have. Call all your many military friends (make-believe or no) and your grandfather now, and ask them. If you haven’t specifically asked them what you are doing is lip-service. And seeing in just the Army alone there is like 24 pogues and remfs for every combat soldier, and that Texans seem to like (in my experience) combat arms over pogue and remf MOS’s, and that every single infantryman I know and served with would never, I repeat never, shoot a Texan-Texan, or US-Texan (other than self-defense), you can say whatever you want and it doesn’t make it true. We wouldn’t see them as traitors. But we do see (or did when I was in), and talk about with great anger, blatant coddling of actual traitors. We see them get cush jobs at universities, we see them be media darlings and friends and compatriots of political traitors.

If any orders came down (which, again, they wouldn’t) to mobilize against Texas it would quickly go through the enlisted ranks to ignore any order, to state that they are illegal orders we can’t obey, and everyone would be on board. The military would be paralyzed. Not one shot would be fired. This isn’t about the conservative bent of the military. If San Francisco decided to totally abandon the constitution (more so than now) and the military was ordered in to attack it, they wouldn’t. We would never attack countrymen or non-hostiles just because we were ordered to do so. Don’t believe the movies that show the US Military as brain dead automatons who follow orders blindly.

The legality and morality of it would show no clear cut traitors; you never served so you don’t have a leg to stand on in this aspect of the argument, which seems to be your only aspect. I could be wrong, I’d like to hear what the veterans or current military members here will agree or disagree, especially the combat arms veterans/members who would have to do the murdering.

Keep in mind, Obama deciding to have statisticians guesstimate the population of the US is a violation of the constitution. I didn’t see any soldiers shooting anyone over that. Your argument is based on your beliefs which are not the belief of the US military, the ones who would actually have to pull the trigger.
And I’m not a Texan; I was born in raised in Brockton, MA. And maybe seceding would be the most loyal thing to do to support and defend the constitution. I find your sureness of our military to murder each other disgusting, and I find the cult members dialogue about people who disagree with them disgusting. I find the marginalization of a huge demographic disgusting. But, please, go on being disgusted.

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So basically you're in favor of treason because you lost an election and don't like the fact you're not in charge any more. I'm not happy with the Dems being in charge, either. And hey, it's not murder - if you want to secede, fine, but you'd be a traitor and the punishment for treason is death. And I find it comforting to know that apparently the military (or at least you) believe treason and launching a coup is alright in this day and age. Maybe those dirty hippy tree huggers have it right when they say the military is nothing but a bunch of feckless thugs now.

If Texas decide in a democratic manner to secede from the union, I see no problem about this. If it's a bunch of nutheads who suddenly decide to take the state in hostage and create their own little republic without the support of the majority, that's a completely different matter. In this situation I would see an US army intervention.

I don’t care who is in power. Power can be abused by anyone with any label or a d or r after their name. What people believe is the important part. The cult had a coup of this country years ago. The damage is done, the brainwashing is here to stay; it’s either revolution or a viable choice of a country to move to. This is the lesser of two evils.

This is how it is, kid (the super short version). There were always the blue-bloods, the beautiful people. They believed they had the right to tell people how to live and what to believe. Then the church took over. People weren’t trusted to think for themselves. The Church had to tell people how to not be an animal. People have always lived in tyranny. Then there was the Scottish enlightenment and a crazy idea surfaced: people were good and could rule themselves without a dictator or dictatorial institution like the church telling them what to think and believe, etc. America took this idea and ran with it. And because of it we prospered. We became the beacon of hope and freedom in a world of tyranny. And then the cult had to destroy everything. They replaced the Church with the State. They had to meddle. They had to bring back the old system and we are right back to having the blue-bloods, the beautiful people being tyrants. Telling us what to think, how to be good, how to live correctly. What the real definition of words are. And they have their loyal army of cult members there to destroy anyone who steps out of line, or dare criticize the beautiful people. The hypocrisy is enough to drive any sane person mad.

It’s past the point of discussion. You can’t talk to the brainwashed, you can’t reason with willing slaves. The last attempt at secession let to the end of my people being physical slaves, maybe a new secession will lead to the end of this mental slavery. Live and let live is gone, I’m supposed to fall in line like a good dog, and willingly go to my master and sit still as he places the yolk upon my neck. And if I don’t I’m a racist and a terrorist? No thank you, I can live with you thinking I’m a traitor if it means living in a country with intellectual freedom and discourse and the fairness of not having to support able bodied people who this government tells me I have no choice but to provide for while my family goes without. The hypocrisy and double standers alone are enough to make me want to dee-dee mow the fuck out of here.

And how is disobeying illegal orders a coup? Do you know what coup means? Do you just think it sounds cool to use? And who gives a fuck what the cult members think about the military, or what they think. They’re cult members. They gave up thinking for the greater good of the Cause and have the joy of owning and having exclusive right to the Truth. We would be in almost the exact same spot of the republicans candidate won the election. The cult is in power regardless of who is said or believed to be in power.

This discussion is nuts. I don't care who is right or wrong, Texas going on it's merry way either by democratic means or by taking the state by hostage would mean an intervention by the government.

Let's just say for one second that Texas did Secede and the US did nothing about it. You would see Alaska soon following suit and there is no way in hell that the government would allow all that beautiful oil from both states to up and just disappear. Even without the oil it wouldn't happen. Let's say....UTAH wanted to secede, the US would respond by force if need be to keep the US whole and you would see a lot of Americans pissed off that they thought they could just leave. Sorry buddy, it is the UNITED States of America. Not the United (when we feel like it) States of America. Hell I would go back to America and enlist if that ever happened (if they would take me) It's a matter of pride for most Americans and most Americans would see this as an attack worse than 9/11. Call me brainwashed or whatever but Texas, Alaska or any of the states do not get to dicatate their terms for being a part of the US.

I know you said you were in the military but I don't believe for one second that soldiers would not follow orders and fire on texans who want to have a new civil war.

All this is just crazy talk and wishful thinking anyways. Your opinions are in the extreme minority. Hell did you see the turn out for the "tea bagging", god I love that name, parties that went on across the nation? Even with FOX news screaming at everyone to show up there was only estimated a pathetic 250,000 people that showed up all over the US. That is out of over 300 million people.

skavenhorde said:

This discussion is nuts. I don't care who is right or wrong, Texas going on it's merry way either by democratic means or by taking the state by hostage would mean an intervention by the government.

Let's just say for one second that Texas did Secede and the US did nothing about it. You would see Alaska soon following suit and there is no way in hell that the government would allow all that beautiful oil from both states to up and just disappear.

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Oil is a fungible resource, and the US doesn't produce anywhere near enough of it to meet its needs anyway. Alaska couldn't secede anyway; they're way too dependent on federal handouts.

Still not going to happen even without the oil. That why I think this discussion is nuts and this Gov Perry guy and all those like him are either taking far too many drugs or live in la la land. Who seriously believes in this day and age that Texas could just leave? I normally hate flag waving and all that bs that goes along with it, but when push comes to shove I and (I would believe) a lot of others like me would do what is necassary to keep the US whole.

It's just all crazy talk anyways. People like Unres. are in the minority across america. You'll always have people like him in any civilization. I wish people like Unres. could go live in the past before our revolutionary war. Then they would know TRUE tyranny and what is like to truly be a slave.

It's pathetic he thinks that America is so freaking awful. You know what, then do what I did and leave! I left America to see the world and you know what Unres. I found the world not so opinionated and self righteous. It showed me that even with all of the US's faults it's still one of the best countries in the world. If only the people there would just realize that. That being said I haven't been too proud of America in these past 8 years, it's only now that I am hopeful for America returning to what it used to be. But now you have these lunitics wanting to screw all that up because they're mad they don't have their dicatator in power anymore.

Keep dreaming your dream of cults and brainwashed people, because you know what it's your right to do so. It is also your right to say your opinions without living in fear of being thrown in jail and totured. Why is it your right? Because the US makes it your right to do so.

I risk being ignorant here, but just out of curiosity, why is the idea that Texas would become independent devastating? If they have let's say, a fair and peaceful democratic vote to leave the US, I wouldn't see much problems with it.

I wouldn't view it as treason either assuming obvious majority population of Texas simply no longer wanted to be part of the US. If the US government would try force the States under its rule again, in my humble opinion the agressor wouldn't have been the state but the government.

If majority populations of the rest states would want to become independent too, why shouldn't they be allowed to leave as well? We can't expect the world to stay the same forever, nations change along their population.

Edit: And as for foreign security policy, Texas could be invited to NATO.

Oh this sets an excellent precedent. Let's secede Bavaria, please?

Sure. Would they still be interested in holding the euro as currency and staying in the EU even if they became a nation of their own? If so, then in that case I doubt the changes would be all that drastic really. If not, then I would really like to see how they react to it in Bryssels. Wonder if Bavaria would be charged with treason?

Surlent said:

Sure. Would they still be interested in holding the euro as currency and staying in the EU even if they became a nation of their own? If so, then in that case I doubt the changes would be all that drastic really. If not, then I would really like to see how they react to it in Bryssels. Wonder if Bavaria would be charged with treason?

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No way. Legally the EU is still a huge sheaf of treaties between sovereign countries, which means that if a country wants out, they can get out, even if a specific process for getting out of the EU hasn't been defined.

If Bavaria did decide to secede from Germany, the primary problem would be between Germany and Bavaria. If they reached an agreement about it, Bavaria could then apply for EU membership; if it met the accession criteria, I'm pretty sure it'd get admitted relatively quickly.

Nobody's left the EU yet, despite constant bitching and moaning from some quarters. Somebody might, eventually, and I'm fairly certain that most people would consider labeling that as "treason" rather outlandish. And it's not like there aren't precedents for countries splitting up peacefully in Europe -- the breakup of the USSR is one massive precedent, and the Czech/Slovak split a particularly clean one, especially as both countries are EU members nowadays.

Personally, I'm all for splitting up the European nation-states and admitting the resulting countries into the EU pronto, should they want to join. Go Lapland, Åland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Basque country, Catalonia, Bavaria, Prussia, and every other independence-minded patch of land anywhere!

This discussion brings Northern Ireland to my mind. Hopefully the small Texan minority can remain civil in these economically depressed times and don't try to shoot their way out of the US.

Unrestigered said:

I don’t care who is in power. Power can be abused by anyone with any label or a d or r after their name. What people believe is the important part. The cult had a coup of this country years ago. The damage is done, the brainwashing is here to stay; it’s either revolution or a viable choice of a country to move to. This is the lesser of two evils.

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So you're crazy. Got it.

Unrestigered said:

This is how it is, kid (the super short version). There were always the blue-bloods, the beautiful people. They believed they had the right to tell people how to live and what to believe. Then the church took over. People weren’t trusted to think for themselves. The Church had to tell people how to not be an animal. People have always lived in tyranny. Then there was the Scottish enlightenment and a crazy idea surfaced: people were good and could rule themselves without a dictator or dictatorial institution like the church telling them what to think and believe, etc. America took this idea and ran with it. And because of it we prospered. We became the beacon of hope and freedom in a world of tyranny. And then the cult had to destroy everything. They replaced the Church with the State. They had to meddle. They had to bring back the old system and we are right back to having the blue-bloods, the beautiful people being tyrants. Telling us what to think, how to be good, how to live correctly. What the real definition of words are. And they have their loyal army of cult members there to destroy anyone who steps out of line, or dare criticize the beautiful people. The hypocrisy is enough to drive any sane person mad.

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Heh. Wow. So you think we live in a tyrannical state now? So basically if people run the country and disagree with you it's a tyranny. Cool. Glad to know democracy is so bad.

Unrestigered said:

It’s past the point of discussion. You can’t talk to the brainwashed, you can’t reason with willing slaves. The last attempt at secession let to the end of my people being physical slaves, maybe a new secession will lead to the end of this mental slavery. Live and let live is gone, I’m supposed to fall in line like a good dog, and willingly go to my master and sit still as he places the yolk upon my neck. And if I don’t I’m a racist and a terrorist? No thank you, I can live with you thinking I’m a traitor if it means living in a country with intellectual freedom and discourse and the fairness of not having to support able bodied people who this government tells me I have no choice but to provide for while my family goes without. The hypocrisy and double standers alone are enough to make me want to dee-dee mow the fuck out of here.

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Intellectual freedom? So what, the people who work for AEI or Heritage are censored and tortured? Do you realize how many people agree with you on political issues are actually in congress still?

Unrestigered said:

And how is disobeying illegal orders a coup? Do you know what coup means? Do you just think it sounds cool to use? And who gives a fuck what the cult members think about the military, or what they think. They’re cult members. They gave up thinking for the greater good of the Cause and have the joy of owning and having exclusive right to the Truth. We would be in almost the exact same spot of the republicans candidate won the election. The cult is in power regardless of who is said or believed to be in power.

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Illegal orders? Sorry, ending an active rebellion would not be illegal orders. You're talking about a group of the military actively supporting a revolution against THE LAWFULLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT. That is a rebellion. That is treason. If the military supported that effort, it would be a coup. Alright, well, I guess you've pretty much explained that you are crazy. I guess I'll be hearing about you blowing up a federal building or holding up on some ranch in Montana on the news.

Surlent said:

I risk being ignorant here, but just out of curiosity, why is the idea that Texas would become independent devastating? If they have let's say, a fair and peaceful democratic vote to leave the US, I wouldn't see much problems with it.

I wouldn't view it as treason either assuming obvious majority population of Texas simply no longer wanted to be part of the US. If the US government would try force the States under its rule again, in my humble opinion the agressor wouldn't have been the state but the government.

If majority populations of the rest states would want to become independent too, why shouldn't they be allowed to leave as well? We can't expect the world to stay the same forever, nations change along their population.

Edit: And as for foreign security policy, Texas could be invited to NATO.

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Because a state seceding has already been ruled illegal by the Supreme Court and the Civil War. The federal government would never allow it. It'd pretty much undermine the authority it has.

Unrestigered said:

What would the poll have been the day after 9/11? What would the poll have been two-years ago? What will the poll be two months from now? Two-years from now? The last time Texas seceded a group that didn’t represent Texas as a whole kind of forced the hand. And the numbers of the poll pretty much represent the numbers for the aggregate of US citizens who are being marginalized and called racists for disagreeing with how the country is being managed. At least 1/3rd of non-retired Texans are fully or partially dependent on the government to keep not working, so have no stake in secession.

But, just the mere fact of Texas discussing it hopefully will open cult’s eyes that people don’t like being marginalized by a bunch of pompous, uppity, elitist, self-righteous jackass tyrant cultists, and maybe meddling so much isn’t so fantastic. But probably not so we’ll have to check back on those poll numbers in a couple months.

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Yes, polls are snapshots in time, and pretty useless except as general indicators. They can be manipulated to give any set of data you want by the way the questions are phrased and presented, also, so I don't put too much reliance on them as anything more than a vague indicator of what some people are thinking and feeling about something on a given day when asked a particular question.

And as for the second part, fantastic. I'm sure it would be an even better situation than that paints as the population of the US and Texas would change. It's not like only Texans would stay, I for one would move there. And as stated, the people who are dependent on the state for survival would move to the US. And the people who aren't too keen on breaking their back to provide a living for the lazy mouses probably still won't be keen and might just move to Texas. Why would they stay? Loyalty to a country that calls them racists and terrorists? Sure.

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Kind of funny to hear how upset you are and how unjust it is for you to be called names after that "pompous elitist cultist uppity jackass tyrant' thing--
You seem to think the entire country is composed of people who hate other people, or care enough to do so. I have my own problems, so I, socialist cult member tho I am, don't have the time or inclination to meddle in your life and hate you and call you a racist. I love my country, even if I don't wrap the flag around myself, and I have a loyalty to her that says if the government does something which I personally think is wrong, I will say so and work to change it if I can, not walk away in a childish tantrum because someone has pissed me off and my team lost the election because it was out of sync with the rest of the country, which it's been many times. What's happened to your sense of humor, roqua? It's all a circus, but none of it is as sinister as you're making out.

magerette said:

Kind of funny to hear how upset you are and how unjust it is for you to be called names after that "pompous elitist cultist uppity jackass tyrant' thing--

You seem to think the entire country is composed of people who hate other people, or care enough to do so. I have my own problems, so I, socialist cult member tho I am, don't have the time or inclination to meddle in your life and hate you and call you a racist. I love my country, even if I don't wrap the flag around myself, and I have a loyalty to her that says if the government does something which I personally think is wrong, I will say so and work to change it if I can, not walk away in a childish tantrum because someone has pissed me off and my team lost the election because it was out of sync with the rest of the country, which it's been many times. What's happened to your sense of humor, roqua? It's all a circus, but none of it is as sinister as you're making out.

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^As usual what she said, sums up my feelings on this subject a lot better than my sarcasm and anger filled post.

This is Roqua? Damn I sorta liked him too.

Dude, really buy a clue or something because you are not leaving without some kind of fight. It's what we Americans do best. That and come up with insane notions like this.

I want to ask why you feel this way? and don't give me that garbage about cults and brainwashed people. Explain how we are brainwashed and how they are cults. It's easy to throw those emotionally charged words into a conversation, but difficult to explain exactly what you mean. I'm not talking about in the past either. Tell me about now, how does this "cult" affect you right now and then maybe we can have a sensible conversation without throwing buzzwords followed up by vague notions of the church, Scotland, blue bloods and of course the hottests of the hotbutton words CULTS. If not then you're that guy on the street corner holding up a sign saying "The End Is Near" and screaming from the top of your lungs.

skavenhorde said:

If not then you're that guy on the street corner holding up a sign saying "The End Is Near" and screaming from the top of your lungs.

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To be fair, those guys have seen their credibility go up no end lately.

LOL, too true.

So you're crazy. Got it.

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That must be it. Crazy in love with your cunning mind!

Heh. Wow. So you think we live in a tyrannical state now? So basically if people run the country and disagree with you it's a tyranny. Cool. Glad to know democracy is so bad.

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Heh. Wow. Cool. Your comprehension ability is amazing. You don’t have much going on upstairs do you? But your heart is in the right place so instead of not replying I throw a bunch of quotes at you.

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged,
and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight,
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
-- Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

"America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe

"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for independence." --Charles Austin Beard

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." --William Pitt

"Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress at all, but just terrible things." --Russell Baker

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

"Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." --Malcolm X

Intellectual freedom? So what, the people who work for AEI or Heritage are censored and tortured? Do you realize how many people agree with you on political issues are actually in congress still?

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You have no idea what my stances are on political issues. I’m probably the most liberal person alive. Unless you are a cult member and take liberal to be defined as social fascism, in which case okay, I guess you know everything you need to know about my stance on everything, which is “not yours,” which in turn makes me a racist and a terrorist.

Illegal orders? Sorry, ending an active rebellion would not be illegal orders. You're talking about a group of the military actively supporting a revolution against THE LAWFULLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT. That is a rebellion. That is treason. If the military supported that effort, it would be a coup. Alright, well, I guess you've pretty much explained that you are crazy. I guess I'll be hearing about you blowing up a federal building or holding up on some ranch in Montana on the news.

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You’re still stuck on coups. Read the definition. Again, this country was taken over by a coup years ago. But again, it wouldn’t be a coup. And stop speaking for the military like you have your finger on the pulse of what makes them tick. Playing video games doesn’t make you a military expert, regardless of the picture you chose to use for your handle.

You have no idea what ROE is. Ordering anyone in the military to shoot a non-hostile who poses no direct threat to life or equipment is an illegal order and can be ignored. They could give the order because stealing military equipment is as direct a threat to equipment as possible, but if the brass kept pushing the “disobeying a legal order” nonsense everyone would turn into conscientious objectors. It’s like the only military doctrine you are familiar with was alive and well with Baron Von Steuben. Shit has changed. Vietnam to today has basically rendered most of the UCMJ irrelevant, and that is pretty new when compared to the life of this country. Nothing happens to soldiers who go awol or disobey orders. There is too many ways around everything. The military today is basically run on everyone being willing to play the game, and going to war with Texas if they had a democratic election to secede would be a game they won’t want to play.

Obama is smart enough not to force the military to ignore him, and undermine all his authority as commander and chief. He wouldn’t try to start hostilities. The most he could hope for is for Texas to start hostilities, in which case things would be different.

And of course, we’ve come to people who won’t join the cult and who speak against the cult being terrorists. Sure.

Because a state seceding has already been ruled illegal by the Supreme Court and the Civil War. The federal government would never allow it. It'd pretty much undermine the authority it has.

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Your brain works like a well oiled machine. You think Texas would say they are doing something illegal? Do the states that break federal law regularly admit they are breaking federal law? That isn’t how it works. Different groups of people put different weights of value on different articles, laws, amendments, and rights. No one is illegal, my dear Rathrandil. No one is illegal.

Kind of funny to hear how upset you are and how unjust it is for you to be called names after that "pompous elitist cultist uppity jackass tyrant' thing—

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I can’t be called racist, I’m black. The new definition of racist is non-cult white folk. I have Stockholm Syndrome. I fell in love with my captors. And not being a member of the cult means my synapses’ misfires and my brain—it just don’t work right.

You seem to think the entire country is composed of people who hate other people, or care enough to do so.

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No, the cult hates anyone who disagrees with them. The rest just don't want to be meddled with. I didn’t see a lot or any hate on the little coverage I was able to see of the Tea Parties. I’m guessing you didn’t watch the video I linked to.

I have my own problems, so I, socialist cult member tho I am, don't have the time or inclination to meddle in your life and hate you and call you a racist.

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Awesome. But blacks can’t be racist and if you called me one you’d be racist. I don’t mind socialists, I do mind the cult member’s modern day McCarthyism. But you can’t be bothered, so who cares. Its not like the cult members are being bullied into silence. You have your own problems, why stick up for the rights of people you disagree with to not be marginalized or ignored.

"When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." --Robert A. Heinlein

I’m sorry, I forgot Heinlein is considered a fascist by cult members. Lets fake I didn’t quote him.

I love my country, even if I don't wrap the flag around myself, and I have a loyalty to her that says if the government does something which I personally think is wrong, I will say so and work to change it if I can, not walk away in a childish tantrum because someone has pissed me off and my team lost the election because it was out of sync with the rest of the country, which it's been many times.

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A socialist loves a capitalist country? I don’t understand. It’s so insane I can’t get past this. It’s like Gandhi telling the Dalai Lama how much he loved their UFC fight. And again, who is my side? It has nothing to do with D’s or R’s. It has to do with those who want to impose their moral will on those who don’t want to be meddled with, D's and R's and I's and L's and G's alike. The label doesn't matter, the intent does. I'm not a fan of oppression from any side.

So keep in mind you are saying everyone who moved to Canada when Bush won an election threw a childish tantrum. So, me wanted to live in a free society free of meddling is childish. I guess me moving to a city because I liked city life would be childish, or to the country if I liked it. I shouldn’t have a choice to move to a community I feel like a better fit in or that I would enjoy more?

If South Dakota wanted to secede democratically to become a country catering to the needs of sexual deviants and circus clowns why would it make anyone mad? Let them live their life how they want. Why force people to fall in line when they don’t want to be in line. I don’t want to give them the money i worked for or to force me to make sweet love to a donkey while wearing a clown outfit, but other than that, good for them. I’d leave them alone, they’d leave me alone. No harm no foul. Live and let live. And if I ever want to regularly tag team a sea cow and a midget dressed as bozo while a chimp whips me and pours hot wax on my balls or similar wacky sexual exploration, I’ll know what country to go to. The world would be a richer and more diverse place with less oppression and more freedoms for consenting adults. No one loses. Except the cult members who want to control the thoughts and minds of everyone.

What's happened to your sense of humor, roqua? It's all a circus, but none of it is as sinister as you're making out.

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My sense of humor ends where oppression begins. The hypocrisy and crazy is too prominent and imbedded too deep. No one tries to learn anymore. Everyone just closed their mind off from tolerance and growth, along with reason and sensibility.

". . . it lies within the power as well as the duty of all of us to recognize not only the possibility that we might be wrong but the virtual certainty that on some occasions we are bound to be. The fact that this is so does not absolve us from the duty of having views and putting them forward. But it does make it incumbent upon us to recognize the element of doubt that still surrounds the correctness of these views. And if we do that, we will not be able to lose ourselves in the transports of moral indignation against those who are of opposite opinion and follow a different line, we will put our views forward only with a prayer for forgiveness for the event that we prove to be mistaken." George Kennan

skavenhorde said:

^As usual what she said, sums up my feelings on this subject a lot better than my sarcasm and anger filled post.

This is Roqua? Damn I sorta liked him too.

Dude, really buy a clue or something because you are not leaving without some kind of fight. It's what we Americans do best. That and come up with insane notions like this.

I want to ask why you feel this way? and don't give me that garbage about cults and brainwashed people. Explain how we are brainwashed and how they are cults. It's easy to throw those emotionally charged words into a conversation, but difficult to explain exactly what you mean. I'm not talking about in the past either. Tell me about now, how does this "cult" affect you right now and then maybe we can have a sensible conversation without throwing buzzwords followed up by vague notions of the church, Scotland, blue bloods and of course the hottests of the hotbutton words CULTS. If not then you're that guy on the street corner holding up a sign saying "The End Is Near" and screaming from the top of your lungs.

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Well, dude, I just made a like a hella long post or something. I'll hit you back on the flip side bro. Keep the flim flam on the low flo, yo. But i do guts a quote for you to tide you over, homey:

"What makes the liberal bias in the mainstream media so pernicious is that they deny that they're biased and insist that their twisted version of events is "reality," and anyone who disagrees with them is either mentally or morally suspect. In other words, they're fanatics. And, like all good fanatics, they're utterly convinced that they're in sole possession of virtue and truth." Orson Scott Card

Note: I was supposed to insert that quote into my long post above but forgot, and this quote is not a reply or connected to the eventual reply to the bright young man I'm replying to in this post.