Witcher Omg, the GM is *****, no he's not, yes he is! (MAJOR spoilage!)

The Witcher

Acleacius

SasqWatch
Joined
October 18, 2006
Messages
2,772
SPOILERS from endgame!

Time for more fun with The Witcher? Need you ask or put another way the moderators are still letting me start posts, suckers! ;)

So, what's up next, if you guessed Clones and Time Travel give yourself a :cookie: .
That's right did you know Alvin is a Time Traveling Clone? No? No? Well then you aren't paying attention as this is one of the biggest topics of discussion on the official forums, with at least 5 threads some reaching up to 17 pages and some of these from people who have read the books.

First lets start with the who and what of things, this gives us Alvin escaping/teleporting/time traveling, depending on your position in chapter 4 and the GM appearing in chapter 5 to save Geralt to payback a debt of Geralt saving him.

Second we have the GM projecting himself into Geralt's mind, reading his thoughts, trying to take control and creating a possible vision of the future based on the prophecy OR bringing Geralt's conscious and subconscious into his mind, while reading it, creating the possible future vision based on the prophecy, IN either case Geralt can die for real in the game.

Third we have the GM dying with a Dimeritium Amulet Geralt gave Alvin or one like it, again depending on your position and Geralt mentioning he could have been known by another name.

To get this going I will post an excerpt from a reader of the books and Time Travel proponent, hopefully we can figure out what's going on. :)

This is a long post and can be confusing if you don't follow Time Travel but it's 3 different possible timelines, so don't think it's all one explanation, just in case you are half awake as I am most of the time. :)
This was posted by Conn.
The following is just a theory but shows a possible way to time travel and get the actual story we see in the game. I've only taking information everyone can obtain from books and conversations during the game, concerning the Order, Geralt's death, Dimeritium properties and the magic, sources can still use despite of the necklace. The Professor has a document issuing the capture of Alvin, see below for list. Other things are simply educated guesses but fit with the overal story, I'm assuming Geralt was supposed to be and stay dead in the original first time line and of course that Alvin = Jacques. The King of the Wild Hunt is not affected by the flow of time but sits outside time and can thus influence the time line and maybe set things right.

Timeline 1 Enter Alvin
Pre Prologue
Alvin gets born -> Great War ends -> Geralt dies

Chapter 1
Guards save Alvin from the beast -> Alvin at Order of the White Rose church

Chapter 3
Alvin gets into vizima either by teleporting or via the order -> Triss and Shani fight over Alvin, Alvin teleports away from victor (probably Triss)

Chapter 4
Alvin at Alina's -> Gets Dimeritium Necklace from Dandelion -> Teleports to the past during the big fight between Order and Scoia'tael


Timeline 2 Enter Jacques
Pre Prologue
Alvin Arrives 30-40 years before he's born -> Alvin gets taken care of by the Order of the White Rose -> Alvin changes names to Jacques de Aldersberg, either being given or choosing it himself -> Alvin gets born -> Great War ends -> Geralt dies -> Jacques takes over the dwindling Order during the conference Jacques has a White Rose in his hands that catches fire, thus the Order of the Flaming Rose gets born -> The Order gains influence, jacques employs Salamandra

Prologue
Salamandra attacks Kaer Morhen and obtains everything they want

Chapter 1
Guards save Alvin from the beast -> Alvin at Order of the Flaming Rose church -> Jacques has issued an order on his own capture (The Professor has a document issuing the capture of Alvin) -> Flaming church priest hands Alvin over to Salamandra, Alvin probably teleports away

Chapter 3
Alvin either teleports into Vizima or is brought in by the Order -> Triss and Shani fight over Alvin, Alvin teleports away from victor (probably Triss)

Chapter 4
Alvin at Alina's -> Gets Dimeritium Necklace from Dandelion -> Teleports to the past during the big fight between Order and Scoia'tael

Post Epilogue
Jacques who now doesn't have to worry about a paradox changes Mankind


Timeline 3 Enter Geralt
Pre Prologue
Alvin Arrives 30-40 years before he's born -> Alvin gets taken care of by the Order of the White Rose -> Alvin changes names to Jacques de Aldersberg, either being given or choosing it himself -> Alvin gets born -> Great War ends -> Geralt dies -> Jacques takes over the dwindling Order during the conference Jacques has a White Rose in his hands that catches fire, thus the Order of the Flaming Rose gets born -> The Order gains influence, jacques employs Salamandra -> Geralt is brought back by the the King of the Wild Hunt a few days before Salamadra attacks

Prologue
Salamandra attacks Kaer Morhen, with the help of Geralt the Witchers can prevent Salamandra from taking everything

Chapter 1
Geralt saves Alvin from the beast -> Alvin at Order of the Flaming Rose church -> Jacques has issued an order on his own capture (The Professor has a document issueing the capture of Alvin) -> Flaming church priest hands Alvin over to Salamandra but Geralt saves Alvin

Chapter 3
Alvin teleports into Vizima -> Triss and Shani fight over Alvin, Geralt is used as a pawn to make the decision

Chapter 4
Alvin at Alina's -> Gets Dimeritium Necklace from Geralt -> Geralt teaches Alvin things -> Teleports to the past during the big fight between Order and Scoia'tael

Epilogue
Jacques who now doesn't have to worry about a paradox tries to change mankind but is stopped by Geralt


The world in all 3 time lines in the 5 years between the end of the Great War is for the most part the same. The Beast no doubt still haunts the village, maybe in a lesser or maybe in a stronger form. Geralt had nothing to do with the appearance of it. The Scoia'tael is on the warpath in all three. In the first one they have an advantage, The White Rose is weak compared to the Flaming Rose and less of a match to the Scoia'tael. The Second timeline the Flaming Rose kicks the crap out of the Scoia'tael. The last time line it is more evenly matched due to Geralt interference. Most other world affairs are of no consequence to the story, with the exception of the disease going through the Northern Kingdoms and thus the quarantine of Vizima.

About Geralt's return, if Geralt had been returned either earlier or later in the time line, he probably would have been either to weak or left Kaer Morhen before the attack to regain his memory. If his memory hadn't been wiped he probably would have gone in search of Yennefer. Just imagine the King of the Wild Hunt using a trial and error system to get him back at the perfect moment to stop Jacques

Info taking from game
Journal: Glossary
Catriona: The disease the ravaged through the Northern Countries
Dimeritium: Talks about the effects on magic users
Magic: Magic and how strong Sources can still use magic even when being shielded by a dimeritium necklace, also mentions time travel and stress related teleportation

Books:
Shadow People: Talks about the Redenia Intelligence silently helping the Other of the Flaming Rose because they are an opposing force to the Lodge of Sorceresses and can help stop Nilfgaard if needed
The Flower and the Flame: The story of Jacques ascendancy to Grand Master
The Rivian Pogrom: The Story of Geralt's death

Notes:
Letter from Triss: Talks about Alvin's disappearance from her house and the dimeritium necklace she gave to Dandelion (Shani sent a similar letter)
The Professor's draft letter: Talks about the capture of Alvin. The way the letter is written it is clear The Professor doesn't know the reason of him having to capture Alvin. Azar's knowledge of Alvin's true purpose is unknown.

This seems well thought out and well written, does most everyone agree with Conn? :)
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
2,772
Ahh, no one has thoughts on the clone, time traveling theories?

Well afai have heard, according to the books Teleportation is a reactionary response, out of some trauma or tragedy, i.e Alvin was terrified.

Secondly there seems to be no real benefit to the theory of Teleporting, i.e. if the GM was Alvin why send a clone back in time, when he could go himself.

Most importantly if he could do this why not just create an army of himself, a Source powered army instead of using all these lesser beings whom have the doubts and emotions he feels is necessary to genetically modify out of human beings so he can save them?

Lastly, just the fact that all untrained Source children are given these amulets and some like Alvin can clearly Teleport which iirc was talked about in the game. While Time Travel is a rare existence nor was it ever a topic in the game. So it would be a rather cheep Deus Ex for the developers to say; haha Alvin can Time Travel so the whole first game really didn't happen it was only one possible future and really only happened in someones head. :)
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
2,772
Ah, the ending... reminded me of that from "The Shadow and the Flame", as well as Wells' "Time Machine".

To me it is pretty sure that the GM is Alvin himself (noting more, nothing less) who teleported into the past when we last saw him in Murky Waters.

The more interesting questions are whether the entire story about the prophecy coming true was
a) made up to psych Geralt out
b) true to the GM because of his visions, but not certain
c) really the future, which he visited

While a) is the common "bad mind-bending mage" choice, it is not too consistent with Alvin.
I have no doubt that he was really convinced. Magic is described to drive some people mad, and having those visions from childhood certainly affected him. His choice of a "solution" was -from our point of view- an immoral one and worthy of being opposed. But was he evil? Is it the Witcher himself who is to blame, because he told him to use his gift for what he thinks is good? Was killing him nothing but a regrettable, yet necessary move?
What if he really HAD seen the future, because he learned to time-travel at will? (He does talk about "being in the right place at the right time") What if it WAS the best solution? To what point does a moral choice in the present outweigh greater sacrifices in the future?

Again, it all comes down to very personal judgement.
- Which is why I found the "monster sword" ending a little too biased. They should have left this choice to the players... maybe even to side with him.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
32
Ok, I have noticed one small possible clue that the GM is Alvin. Noticed the dog in the castle just before the last battle stuff. The game did a closeup on it. Now since all the dogs look alike..........take it any way you want. It was just a thought I had. lol
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
2,384
Location
Missouri USA
- Which is why I found the "monster sword" ending a little too biased. They should have left this choice to the players... maybe even to side with him.

Siding with "New Order"? Perish the thought! :)
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
So it would be a rather cheep Deus Ex for the developers to say; haha Alvin can Time Travel so the whole first game really didn't happen it was only one possible future and really only happened in someones head.

No, the past cannot be changed, Alvin was always the Grand Master, as in, he always goes back in time and becomes Jacques, it's not a possible future but the only future for him.
 
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Messages
200
> Siding with "New Order"? Perish the thought!

The question is: Is he a monster?
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
32
Was Heinrich Himmler a monster?
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
We are not talking about Heinrich Himmler.
Unless Alvin traveled through time and space to impersonate him, too. :D
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
32
LOL Vio, similarities are striking though...
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
If you think so name them, but please don't digress.
This is about the possibility of Alvin KNOWING the future.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
32
III Reich which was supposed to last 1000 years? Alvin's knowledge of the future was equaly shaky. He thought he saw visions of distant future but failed to see his death in not so distant one.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
We don't know that.

After seeing the Squirrel ending I see how you got a much worse picture of the Order in general. And I'm not saying he's good, but just assume he wasn't totally mad. I think it makes it more interesting than having an "utterly bad guy" after all.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
32
Well, either he haven't foresaw his death or was mad enough not to care? Why go through with the New Order scheme knowing that it was all in vain? Unless he simply enjoyed the process...
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
Maybe he didn't check the consequence of every single action?
Apart from that, that's not the point.

Anyone else?
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
32
Just finished the game. The ending is really intriguing, but really, what happened? The discussion about the final cut scene spanned more than 30 pages on the official forum. Time travel? clone? isn't that sound a little way off?
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,028
Location
Malaysia
Well, I side with those who think that GM was Alvin. In Sapkowski's books Ciri (on whom Alvin is clearly based) is also a Source and is capable of teleporting through space and time on regular basis.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,721
Just finished the game myself. Wow, what an ending. Not sure what to think about all this, but I personally found the "monster sword" quote to be very fitting. I sided with the Order in my playthrough, and found the arguements on both sides to have a ring of truth.

I just have one question about the theories proposed by the first post in this thread - The game makes it clear why the King of the Wild Hunt wants Geralt around (because death follows him), but what purpose would the Wild Hunt have in thwarting the Grand Master's plans?... I mean, why bother bringing Geralt back at a specific point to set in motion those things?

Oh and one more thing: Would the presence of Alvin in the same time period as the GM suggest a clone, or rather the same being occupying the same plane of existence simultaneously (as in the Back to the Future movies). - I personally don't buy the idea of the GM being able to 'clone' himself... and again, to what end? That just doesn't make sense.

From what limited Witcher knowledge I have, the Conjunction of the Spheres suggests that there are multiple planes of existence (alternate universes) that somehow got crossed. - That introduced humans and monsters into the realm previously inhabited by the elder races. Why couldn't Alvin simply be a product of the same event? - He is Alvin in one parallel universe, and the GM in another. In fact, based on that foundation, it would make more sense to me that Alvin is not able to travel through 'time', but rather, able to travel from one universe to another.
 
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
1,081
Location
Midwest, USA
On the second play-through i stay neutral and slaughtered both GM and the King of WildHunt for spouting nonsense. Then in the last cut-scene the slaughtered assassin i believe was Alvin from the future.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,028
Location
Malaysia
Another thing... Iirc the bestiary mentions that SkullHeads ( the monsters you encounter in the Epilogue) were actually prehistoric beasts, meaning they came and went a long time ago. Could it be that what the GM took as being the future was actually visions of the past?
 
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
1,081
Location
Midwest, USA
Back
Top Bottom