Does Extremist Media Inspire Violence or Curb It?

DArtagnan said:

The reason I asked, was to get clarification from him - not you

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Really? Since when do message boards work like that? I'm pretty sure I have the right to respond about what "I think".

JDR13 said:

Really? Since when do message boards work like that? I'm pretty sure I have the right to respond about what "I think".

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Please point out how I've tried to curtail your rights

I'm trying to say that I asked for clarification, and I can only get that from him.

You're free to speak your mind however you like, but it won't really help me in my quest.

DArtagnan said:

Please point out how I've tried to curtail your rights

I'm trying to say that I asked for clarification, and I can only get that from him.

You're free to speak your mind however you like, but it won't really help me in my quest.

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Your quest to see the obvious?

JDR13 said:

Your quest to see the obvious?

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I've completed that quest already, it was called:

"The man who would be stubborn though the heavens fall."

It was about you and your posts

DArtagnan said:

I've completed that quest already, it was called:

"The man who would be stubborn though the heavens fall."

It was about you and your posts

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Yes, I remember.

Hypocrisy of that magnitude is hard to forget.

Prime Junta said:

However, when *you* say the same thing, that makes me respect you *less* -- because you've never been in that kind of situation, and unless you go to certain Far Eastern countries, you never will be. IOW, when *you're* saying it, all it says is that you're long on a sense of invented grievance and short on empathy -- and that observation doesn't make me respect you; it makes me pity you.

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Be an outed atheist, or a republican on a college campus. Apparently I'm responsible for pedophilia, Stalin, Mao, Hitler (even though he was an xtian) *and* I single-handedly steal money from minorities and women because I hate them all and want to use their money to build my third yacht which will be anchored outside my seventh summer home in the Bahamas. Oh, and I hate all the Mexicans and want to shoot them when they cross the border (despite the fact my last name is clearly Hispanic ... ). Can't forget that one, too.

I just think people need to shrug it and ignore it, PJ, and I think it's wrong to say that the same message is right or wrong depending on who it comes from. So if your Russian friend says it, then she's completely right and should be respected, but if a WASP (minus the P) like DTE says it, that's really bad? In my view the statement should be correct no matter who says it.

Rithrandil said:

Be an outed atheist, or a republican on a college campus. Apparently I'm responsible for pedophilia, Stalin, Mao, Hitler (even though he was an xtian) *and* I single-handedly steal money from minorities and women because I hate them all and want to use their money to build my third yacht which will be anchored outside my seventh summer home in the Bahamas. Oh, and I hate all the Mexicans and want to shoot them when they cross the border (despite the fact my last name is clearly Hispanic ... ). Can't forget that one, too.

I just think people need to shrug it and ignore it, PJ, and I think it's wrong to say that the same message is right or wrong depending on who it comes from. So if your Russian friend says it, then she's completely right and should be respected, but if a WASP (minus the P) like DTE says it, that's really bad? In my view the statement should be correct no matter who says it.

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The difference is the object, Rith. When you are she are saying it, they're talking about how they themselves should behave when confronted with shit like that. When dte is saying it, he's talking about how others should behave.

IOW, I believe that it's good general advice and likely to make you more happy if you live by it, but I feel it's offensive to attempt to impose it on someone else.

Or, put another way, insulting a dominant group is not the same thing as insulting a subordinate group.

Prime Junta said:

Or, put another way, insulting a dominant group is not the same thing as insulting a subordinate group.

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And thus we hit the crux of the matter. That's an excellent justification for reverse racism and you're endorsing it. Well done. You like to apply different rules to every situation since that allows you to justify practically anything you want, depending on the lights you choose to shine on any given problem. I attempt to be consistent, since that removes subjectivity making for a much clearer path.

*sniff* AND you don't respect me in the morning?

dteowner said:

And thus we hit the crux of the matter. That's an excellent justification for reverse racism and you're endorsing it. Well done. You like to apply different rules to every situation since that allows you to justify practically anything you want, depending on the lights you choose to shine on any given problem. I attempt to be consistent, since that removes subjectivity making for a much clearer path.

*sniff* AND you don't respect me in the morning?

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Are you saying we're all treated equally?

Because if you're saying we SHOULD be treated equally - then I think we all agree.

But we're not, though.

dteowner said:

And thus we hit the crux of the matter. That's an excellent justification for reverse racism and you're endorsing it. Well done. You like to apply different rules to every situation since that allows you to justify practically anything you want, depending on the lights you choose to shine on any given problem. I attempt to be consistent, since that removes subjectivity making for a much clearer path.

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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

Seriously, though: my position is perfectly consistent; I just look at it from a different point of view. I factor power relations into the equation; you leave them out. Of course, this means that my criterion will yield consistent results, they're just different from the results your criterion yields.

For example, I believe that it's less offensive for a Roma to tell an offensive joke about ethnic Finns than it is for an ethnic Finn to tell an offensive joke about Roma, just like I believe it's less offensive for a black American to tell an offensive joke about whites than for a white American to tell an offensive joke about blacks. (Or, for that matter, I believe it's less offensive for a black to call another black "nigger" than for a white to call a black "nigger.")

I believe this is related to our main political differences, actually: it's the same difference that's between the concepts of formal liberty and practical liberty. Formal liberty means that everyone sleeping on a park bench is treated the same, regardless of whether they're rich or poor -- whereas the concept of practical liberty would also consider what other choices the person sleeping on the bench might or might not have. As you know, I'm fairly strongly in the practical liberty camp -- i.e., I believe that it's not enough to make everyone equal before the law; we should also work to maximize the number of real and attractive life choices everyone has.

(Oh, and reverse racism? No, I don't think it's a good thing. I just think it's less of a bad thing than plain ol' dominant-group racism, and until we manage to get rid of dominant-group racism, I don't think we have the moral authority to call people out on reverse racism.)

DArtagnan said:

Are you saying blatant discrimination and racism should simply be shrugged off?

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Obviously not, but I *am* saying that it's wrong to go into every situation looking for something to get indignant about. For some people out there, breakfast is racist because their coffee is black while the milk is white. Ignore the little stuff. It's little stuff and is most likely to fade away when it doesn't achieve the desired response.

If a KKK guy is looking for trouble, he can walk into Harlem and shout "nigger" and he'll get all the trouble he can stand. But imagine if that same setup got a response along the lines of, "call us when you've got something good"... Suddenly "nigger" is pointless. And powerless. No reason for our KKK guy to get his Greyhound ticket in the first place.

And let's reverse things a little bit to show just how silly PJ's approach is. Let's put a Black Panther in Macon County, Georgia shouting "cracker". He's gonna get about the same treatment as our previous idiot in Harlem. But according to PJ, this guy is allowed to do that and it should be ignored, simply because he's a minority. PJ would shrug his shoulders at the first guy, saying "Idiot asked for it" (which is a good response) and hold vigils for the second guy, probably filing suit against the Macon police for not preventing the idiot from doing it and then filing a second suit because the only reason they would have attempted to prevent it is because he's a minority and they're trying to stifle his freedom of expression (which is completely hypocritical and WRONG) just because that idiot happens to have different color skin.

Oh, but it's all about power and which group is dominant. The same rules don't apply. Bullshit. It's called blind justice. Give it a try some day. I may have a small hobgoblin mind, but I can identify crap when I smell it, and this hypocritical justification for reverse racism stinks to high heaven.

Let me try this once more, dte.

I do not believe reverse racism is justifiable.

I believe that reverse racism is less pernicious than dominant-group racism.

Dominant-group racism: -10.
Reverse racism: -2.

Capeesh?

By the way, you're awfully quick to yell "Hypocrite!" lately. IMO you're mistaken to do that. Just because somebody's moral standards are not the same as yours does not mean that he's a hypocrite. Osama bin Laden thinks that enemies of Islam should be killed. That makes him dangerous and misguided, but it doesn't make him a hypocrite. His morals are entirely consistent -- he's equally eager to kill Americans, Israelis, Spaniards, and "apostates" and "hypocrites."

Your moral values are not the same as mine. You believe that people should be treated equally regardless of power relations. That yields judgment calls that are entirely consistent, but often significantly at odds with mine. That means that while you're misguided (and possibly dangerous) as well, you're not a hypocrite either.

And, dte, neither am I. My ethics are different from yours; in some ways, profoundly different. It's entirely to be expected that you would consider me to be misguided and (possibly) dangerous as well.

But different does not mean hypocritical -- as I understand it, hypocritical is when you apply a looser standard to yourself than to others; when your ethics are internally inconsistent. I do my level best not to do that, and I would appreciate it if you gave me the benefit of the doubt. It's not much fun to talk with you if you trot out "Hypocrite! Hypocrite!" every time we have a disagreement.

(Edit: Allowing for the hyperbole, you judged my reactions to your hypotheticals quite right -- I would consider it more wrong for the whites to attack the black guy yelling 'cracker' than the blacks to attack the white guy yelling 'nigger,' although of course I would consider both cases rather badly wrong.)

dteowner said:

Obviously not, but I *am* saying that it's wrong to go into every situation looking for something to get indignant about. For some people out there, breakfast is racist because their coffee is black while the milk is white. Ignore the little stuff. It's little stuff and is most likely to fade away when it doesn't achieve the desired response.

If a KKK guy is looking for trouble, he can walk into Harlem and shout "nigger" and he'll get all the trouble he can stand. But imagine if that same setup got a response along the lines of, "call us when you've got something good"... Suddenly "nigger" is pointless. And powerless. No reason for our KKK guy to get his Greyhound ticket in the first place.

And let's reverse things a little bit to show just how silly PJ's approach is. Let's put a Black Panther in Macon County, Georgia shouting "cracker". He's gonna get about the same treatment as our previous idiot in Harlem. But according to PJ, this guy is allowed to do that and it should be ignored, simply because he's a minority. PJ would shrug his shoulders at the first guy, saying "Idiot asked for it" (which is a good response) and hold vigils for the second guy, probably filing suit against the Macon police for not preventing the idiot from doing it and then filing a second suit because the only reason they would have attempted to prevent it is because he's a minority and they're trying to stifle his freedom of expression (which is completely hypocritical and WRONG) just because that idiot happens to have different color skin.

Oh, but it's all about power and which group is dominant. The same rules don't apply. Bullshit. It's called blind justice. Give it a try some day. I may have a small hobgoblin mind, but I can identify crap when I smell it, and this hypocritical justification for reverse racism stinks to high heaven.

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Well, I understand your position better now.

But maybe if you demonstrated that you did understand that being in the minority, and actually experiencing harsh and blatant discrimination on a daily basis can make it tough to "shrug it off".

I agree there are many kinds of racism, and there are many ways of responding to it.

I could be wrong, but I think that MIGHT be what PJ is after - a little sympathy and understanding.

Even as a member of different minority groups, PJ, I have to line up with dte's line of reasoning on these things. I want everything applied equally. I view the bullshit Al Shartpon and Jesse Jackson spews as equally wrong/bad/dangerous as the equivalent from a Klan member. I might even be willing to go as far as to say the former is worse then the latter, since it is openly tolerated in our society. Go look at the Duke Lacrosse case. Did Jackson or Sharpton ever apologize?

While you may think that reverse racism is less pernicious, it builds up resentment in otherwise moderate members of the dominant group who would be supportive of the minority group. I used to be of your mindset, though - where I thought white people who were racist were 'worse' than minorities who were racist. Then I went to college and saw that anything slightly questionable from a white person instantly labels as them as someone who wears a white hood and likes to burn crosses for fun. Do you know how many damn times I'd get called a racist for saying I don't support affirmative action? I had a black student start screaming at me about how I wanted to re-institute Jim Crow or whites-only rest rooms. What did everyone else do? Either agree with the kid, or not respond. The teacher just let it go. Similar things have happened when I would say I'm against illegal immigration. Suddenly I'm xenophobic because I look white and am against *il*legal immigration, despite the fact I favor guest worker programs and expanded legal immigration!

Or you can go into how there are Latino, black, asian, etc fraternities - but if someone created a 'white' fraternity it'd be on CNN within an hour, there'd be pickets, protests, etc, and the kids would probably be expelled - even if the membership rules were exactly the same as the others.

I don't see or understand a difference between racism and reverse racism, other then that I'm somehow expected to sit there, smile, and deal with it when I have my "I'm in a majority" hat on (by being/looking white and being a male), whereas if I had my "I'm in a minority" hat on (by being an atheist, or a republican in college, etc) I would have every moral right to find it offensive/bad/whatever.

Hey, I don't think you're a hypocrite either. Just misguided.

And yes, I think that this point -- value, if you will -- is near the core of what makes one person a lefty and another a rightie -- however similar the actual, practical policies they eventually end up supporting might end up, as often happens in our case.

FWIW, I've been at the receiving end of reverse racism as well. For example, when we were recruiting, someone whose application I rejected came back with a very angry email saying that I only rejected his application because he's Kenyan, and I'm a racist piece of shit. I replied by explaining that while we don't currently have any Kenyans working for us, we have a Chinese, a Turk, a couple of Spaniards, several Russians, and the occasional Finn, and the reason I didn't invite him for an interview was that his studies and work experience weren't as good a match for our requirements as some others.

It wasn't nice to get that kind of reaction, and he certainly didn't improve his chances of getting a job by reacting like that, but having seen close up what a non-ethnic-Finn has to go through when looking for a job here, I could quite easily understand why he had come to feel that way, and consequently didn't feel terribly offended or angry about it. The difference being, I was the one in the position of power.

(And yes, way more Finns are overtly racist pieces of shit than Americans, AFAICT anyway.)

Perhaps a "definition" or three would help. A hypocrite is one that sets rules but doesn't follow them. A hypocrite will approve a behavior set from one while decrying the exact same behavior set from another. A hypocrite sets restrictions on the delivery of a service to the point that it cannot be supplied, and then complains that they aren't getting the service.

So, in this thread, you fall under the second definition. When we talked about the police and knife-wielding old ladies, you fell under definition three. I can't recall you ever falling under definition one, which is good since that's the truly disgraceful one of the bunch.

DArtagnan said:

Well, I understand your position better now.

But maybe if you demonstrated that you did understand that being in the minority, and actually experiencing harsh and blatant discrimination on a daily basis can make it tough to "shrug it off".

I agree there are many kinds of racism, and there are many ways of responding to it.

I could be wrong, but I think that MIGHT be what PJ is after - a little sympathy and understanding.

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It's a [insert minority group here] thing--you wouldn't understand. What a cop-out. If it's so nebulous that it can't be explained, it's "little stuff".

Come to think of it... I've been in the scant minority in this forum from day 1. Y'all have deeply offended me, and I refuse to take this debasement any further. I expect reparations, but I'll accept public apologies and the right to blow off any future argument by pointing out that you can't possibly understand the plight of oppressed Republicans the world over, as well as the right to seriously insult members of the lefty majority with impunity. Well crap the bed, I could get used to the protected group stuff now that I've found a protected group to be in.

dteowner said:

It's a [insert minority group here] thing--you wouldn't understand. What a cop-out. If it's so nebulous that it can't be explained, it's "little stuff".

Come to think of it... I've been in the scant minority in this forum from day 1. Y'all have deeply offended me, and I refuse to take this debasement any further. I expect reparations, but I'll accept public apologies and the right to blow off any future argument by pointing out that you can't possibly understand the plight of oppressed Republicans the world over, as well as the right to seriously insult members of the lefty majority with impunity. Well crap the bed, I could get used to the protected group stuff now that I've found a protected group to be in.

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I'm not really sure I got that, so I will have to draw the natural conclusion that you're deeply in love with me.

As such, I hope you're a beautiful woman - and if you look great, I'll consider it a bonus that would otherwise be required to have sex with me, if I wasn't quite as generous as I tend to be.

What hey? I'm confused with your confusion.

I look quite a bit like my avatar (better teeth), I've got an "out-ie", and (even though I have that resigned desperation of a long-term married man) I'm not quite ready to bat for the other team yet.

dteowner said:

What hey? I'm confused with your confusion.

I look quite a bit like my avatar (better teeth), I've got an "out-ie", and (even though I have that resigned desperation of a long-term married man) I'm not quite ready to bat for the other team yet.

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You speak as if your opinion mattered