Rampant Games - Rolling vs Building Characters

When it comes to pen and paper RPGs my group has been gaming for a very long time and these days we use and mostly prefer the point buy system. There are times when I do kind of miss the random roll system, it could create some more interesting and variable characters then you might otherwise get on point buy. But the problem is that it didn't always do that. Bad stats were still put into areas not related to your class, good stats always put into class stats. You might see a smart or charismatic fighter that wouldn't be optimal to build on point buy, but only if they had so many good stats that they were still left over after assigning them to things like strength, dexterity and constitution. And then there were always the awful characters that the DM would have to let people reroll, and the godly characters who were great at everything.

sakichop said:

Nah, if cheating was my motivation I'd just download an editor and max out my stats.

I like the control and options rolling provides or doesn't provide depending on how I choose to use the system.

I usually replay these types of games several times so it's nice to be able to build different characters provided by higher or lower rolls even if by end game they all end up pretty much the same.If it was a point buy system I'd start with the same stats every time.

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The problem with RNG, to me, is that the computer game implementation is such that you're tempted to keep rolling because it's sort of "legitimate". But the PnP system it's derived from never intended for that to happen.

Which means it's essentially cheating without cheating, if you know what I mean.

So, we're just seeing these things differently.

I feel better knowing I've created a powerful character that's working within the intended design.

Anyway, it's a trivial matter overall.

DArtagnan said:

The problem with RNG, to me, is that the computer game implementation is such that you're tempted to keep rolling because it's sort of "legitimate". But the PnP system it's derived from never intended for that to happen.

Which means it's essentially cheating without cheating, if you know what I mean.

So, we're just seeing these things differently.

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I see where your coming from and would definitely agree that it's exploiting the mechanics of the game, but it's also a situation where people need to have some self control. I do realize that most people are lacking in that department though. ( not implying that you do as I wouldn't know)

I typically will play a 1 roll limit game and a min\max game as a replay if the game is enjoyable enough to replay.

DArtagnan said:

I feel better knowing I've created a powerful character that's working within the intended design.

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We differ here. I don't care about working within the intended design or experiencing a game the way the devs intended. For me, it's just about what's fun for me. If it happens to be playing the way they intended is the most fun then that's the way I play. If exploiting game mechanics, modding or whatever make it more fun , then I'll do that. Especially for a replay.

For example I didn't play any vanilla skyrim and have no idea really of the experience that the devs intended but had a blast with all 400 hrs that I played. That's really a bit off topic though, I just a got on a tangent.

DArtagnan said:

Anyway, it's a trivial matter overall.

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True, but a surprisingly an interesting discussion.

sakichop said:

I see where your coming from and would definitely agree that it's exploiting the mechanics of the game, but it's also a situation where people need to have some self control. I do realize that most people are lacking in that department though. ( not implying that you do as I wouldn't know)

I typically will play a 1 roll limit game and a min\max game as a replay if the game is enjoyable enough to replay.

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I don't have much in the way of self-control when the game provides me with the option to re-roll freely. Even if I did, I still wouldn't like the system - because I think it's stupid that I can't play the character I want, effectively, with just a single roll or some arbitrary self-imposed limit.

Frankly, I think that's absurdly counter-productive

We differ here. I don't care about working within the intended design or experiencing a game the way the devs intended. For me, it's just about what's fun for me. If it happens to be playing the way they intended is the most fun then that's the way I play. If exploiting game mechanics, modding or whatever make it more fun , then I'll do that. Especially for a replay.

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Yep, I generally don't enjoy exploiting mechanics or modding to make things easier. Unless we're talking about bugs or absurdly bad game design.

One example would be Deus Ex: HR - where I found parts of the Energy Cell system to be bad design, frankly. So, I prefer to play that with mods.

Fortunately, they figured this out and changed it for the better with Director's Cut - so I no longer need mods.

For example I didn't play any vanilla skyrim and have no idea really of the experience that the devs intended but had a blast with all 400 hrs that I played. That's really a bit off topic though, I just a got on a tangent.

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I always start out with vanilla - and I played Skyrim like that as well. I don't change anything until I feel comfortable I understand the design, and when I do change it - it's to make it more challenging, never to make it easier.

Obviously, when it comes to visuals - that's another matter.

True, but a surprisingly an interesting discussion.

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Hehe, well, I tend to find most "in-depth" game discussions interesting - but I've learned that most people around here don't exactly share my enthusiasm for going on about it

DArtagnan said:

I don't have much in the way of self-control when the game provides me with the option to re-roll freely. Even if I did, I still wouldn't like the system - because I think it's stupid that I can't play the character I want, effectively, with just a single roll or some arbitrary self-imposed limit.

Frankly, I think that's absurdly counter-productive

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Well, that's where we differ, I just look at re-rolling as another gameplay mechanic so it doesn't bother me.

DArtagnan said:

Yep, I generally don't enjoy exploiting mechanics or modding to make things easier. Unless we're talking about bugs or absurdly bad game design.

One example would be Deus Ex: HR - where I found parts of the Energy Cell system to be bad design, frankly. So, I prefer to play that with mods.

Fortunately, they figured this out and changed it for the better with Director's Cut - so I no longer need mods.



I always start out with vanilla - and I played Skyrim like that as well. I don't change anything until I feel comfortable I understand the design, and when I do change it - it's to make it more challenging, never to make it easier.

Obviously, when it comes to visuals - that's another matter.

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Don't misunderstand me I never mod to make things easier. when I was done with skyrim, it was much more dark souls and not at all KOA. A mere skeever was a formidable foe.

DArtagnan said:

Hehe, well, I tend to find most "in-depth" game discussions interesting - but I've learned that most people around here don't exactly share my enthusiasm for going on about it

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Yeah, I don't mind at all. My only problem is I often don't have time to post (at length) for days at a time so having an exchange with me can be difficult sometimes. Also I'll forget about threads when I get back so never finish posting sometimes.