now there's the rare case of a hacker and network disruptor that I would support. The good guys need to fight fire w/ fire
Iron Lore Closes!
- Thread starter Gorath
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Steel_Wind
General Manager
Because it is very hard to stop, suing your customers earns their contempt, and - most of all - because the path of turning to consoles to combat piracy proved vastly more effective than any other technological solution they could see.
If consoles didn't exist as a viable option - maybe PC Game publishers might use RIAA style tactics (I doubt it though - piracy has always been a fact of economic life in game publishing - whereas the .mp3 unpredictably devastated the revenue streams in the music industry. Expectations and a belief that a partcular market model "should" continue factor significantly into business decisions.)
Certainty counts in large amounts. And that's what consoles provide: a "secure" game platform. Is there piracy in console games? Sure. But the incident is woefully small vs PC games. The publishers accept the following data to be - more or less - the truth:
19 console titles are sold for every 1 that is pirated; whereas at least 7 (and as high as 15) copies of a PC game are pirated for every one that is sold.
You may dispute these figures, argue their efficacy and whether or not a pirated game represents a real loss or not.
But let's avoid all of that because whether the "truth" is the "truth" is irrelevant if the people who use the statistics to make business decisions believe they are true. And, yes, the publishers believe it to be true. They are emboldened in those beliefs when a 360 game like Bioshock outperform its PC counterpart 5:1 in sales. And when Call of Duty 4 on the console sells 10 copies for every 1 sold for the PC? It's over guys.
So in short, they did move to combat piracy as soon as a viable option for doing so on a reasonable basis presented itself: and they did so by withdrawing a lot of development money and putting it instead into console and portable game development, where piracy is far less and profits are far higher. (To be sure, the R4DS has Nintendo concerned, but DS games are still vastly more lucrative than PC games. How in the hell did that happen???).
Steam is the other tactic of course (and greatly enmeshed with being a distribution portal). But I think it's mostly a case of doing the best one can do with a bad situation - and half-heartedly at that.
The simple explanation is closest to the truth: why bash your brains against the door when the way out is easy? The publishers have put their money into console development. And that's why PC gaming has a terminal illness -and why solid middle tier devs like ILE can't pitch a title to save their business.
Sad.
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Thats a common rationalisation but not exactly true - mp3 piracy undercuts anyone whose business model relies on the sale of recorded music. That live musicians have an alternative revenue source doesn't diminish the impact of piracy on the distribution of recorded music. Which of course leads to the whole question of copyright and whether the legal system can or should protect dieing business models... the depressing thing is that it looks like PC gaming might be headed that way too.
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This thread depresses me 
The thing is I wouldn't have a problem moving to consoles if I could play the games I enjoy on PC there with a similar gaming experience. Unfortunately the games I enjoy the most are the very ones that will never make that transition - party-based RPGs just aren't viable on a console, especially when forced to use a controller instead of keyboard/mouse. As it is, there's very few console games I ever even consider buying - the death of PC gaming would mean the death of the games I love. Mass Effect was a good example of a game that gets about as close as a console can to what I like... but even there it fell far short of my preferred gaming style.
And the worst thing is that I can't do anything about it - I already buy my games, it's the people who don't that are in the process of ruining it for all.
The thing is I wouldn't have a problem moving to consoles if I could play the games I enjoy on PC there with a similar gaming experience. Unfortunately the games I enjoy the most are the very ones that will never make that transition - party-based RPGs just aren't viable on a console, especially when forced to use a controller instead of keyboard/mouse. As it is, there's very few console games I ever even consider buying - the death of PC gaming would mean the death of the games I love. Mass Effect was a good example of a game that gets about as close as a console can to what I like... but even there it fell far short of my preferred gaming style.
And the worst thing is that I can't do anything about it - I already buy my games, it's the people who don't that are in the process of ruining it for all.
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Niche games will stay on the PC. Just get used to A or B graphics quality at best. AAA games will in most cases made for a console as lead platform and more often than not get a phoned-in PC port.
Mass Effect seems to be an exception. The previews say the PC port Bioware outsourced to god-knows-who is excellent and removes all signs of consolitis.
Mass Effect seems to be an exception. The previews say the PC port Bioware outsourced to god-knows-who is excellent and removes all signs of consolitis.
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Prime Junta
RPGCodex' Little BRO
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The Jade Empire port was very good too.
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cutterjohn
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Wow! Out of all the Diablo clones that have come out over the years, I had thought that most people that really enjoyed those sorts of games thought that Titan Quest was the best of the bunch, and worth playing. After all it must've done well enough that an expansion was funded and released and several updates produced.
IMO while I really don't care much for ARPGs, I DID manage to have more fun with TQ than I ever did with Diablo or Diablo II or pretty much any other ARPG excepting Divine Divinity, I REALLY like DD for some reason...
Weren't they supposed to have been working on another project too? IIRC they mentioned something about they had started something else after TQ had been released...
[EDIT]
As to THQ financing guys, IIRC TW was originally a M$ game. THQ ONLY came along around the time that the expansion came out... As a matter of fact my TQ box/manual has M$ and Iron Lore plastered all over it.
[/EDIT]
[EDIT2]
Piracy:
Surprisingly enough, with my recent lookings into consoles again, I see far far far more piracy on consoles than I do for PC games.
Also, I think that alot of publishers have entirely unrealistic expectations of returns on many games, AAA or otherwise.
Probably if TQ had not had $$$ wasted on TV advertisements, and I do believe that I recall some from when it was a M$ release, it probably would've been fine, but I still find it hard to believe that they didn't sell copies to stay afloat, considering that this ARPG of all the recent ones still seems to have a community and some "buzz". While most of the others were DOA or died shortly thereafter.
The cost of a good gaming PC isn't too bad unless you expect to be buying the very most recent GPU which typically are initially released with entirely assinine MSRPs, costing as much or more than a top of the line general purpose CPU which is a better overall value. Personally, I refuse to pay more than c. $150 or so for a GPU, and if it means living with a GPU that can't quite run games at 1600x1200 thats fine, as my monitor can't either and likely won't for some time. If Intel could get their shit together and come out with a halfway decent GPU we might actually see some realistic GPU prices some day...
Sound cards are starting to move into the ridiculously priced range as well, but Creative Labs at least seems to have backed off from going entirely nuts on prices. Sound cards are an even poorer investment at over $50 or so, considering their development/component costs and function. As a matter of fact with recent motherboards I've found the onboard sound to sound at least as good to me as a $100+ FX Audio card from Creative Labs.
Console upgrades:
Sure consoles have to be upgraded. It's just that console "upgrades" are hidden as a new, mostly incompatible product, and with the new release price on consoles being ridiculously high for what they do(a toy) I'm surprised that they still sell. (Well the PS3 really isn't, and the Wii and XBOX360 are already down into reasonable price ranges.)
Consoles aren't even really state of the art v. a PC any longer when they initially come out either, unlike the old days where consoles were usually the first. Consoles today sound good on paper 2 or 3y before release, but the last couple of generations have been behind by the time they actually hit the street. Hell, the original XBOX was just a crippled PC with I'm sure some sort of variation of mobile Windows NT on it.
[/EDIT2]
IMO while I really don't care much for ARPGs, I DID manage to have more fun with TQ than I ever did with Diablo or Diablo II or pretty much any other ARPG excepting Divine Divinity, I REALLY like DD for some reason...
Weren't they supposed to have been working on another project too? IIRC they mentioned something about they had started something else after TQ had been released...
[EDIT]
As to THQ financing guys, IIRC TW was originally a M$ game. THQ ONLY came along around the time that the expansion came out... As a matter of fact my TQ box/manual has M$ and Iron Lore plastered all over it.
[/EDIT]
[EDIT2]
Piracy:
Surprisingly enough, with my recent lookings into consoles again, I see far far far more piracy on consoles than I do for PC games.
Also, I think that alot of publishers have entirely unrealistic expectations of returns on many games, AAA or otherwise.
Probably if TQ had not had $$$ wasted on TV advertisements, and I do believe that I recall some from when it was a M$ release, it probably would've been fine, but I still find it hard to believe that they didn't sell copies to stay afloat, considering that this ARPG of all the recent ones still seems to have a community and some "buzz". While most of the others were DOA or died shortly thereafter.
The cost of a good gaming PC isn't too bad unless you expect to be buying the very most recent GPU which typically are initially released with entirely assinine MSRPs, costing as much or more than a top of the line general purpose CPU which is a better overall value. Personally, I refuse to pay more than c. $150 or so for a GPU, and if it means living with a GPU that can't quite run games at 1600x1200 thats fine, as my monitor can't either and likely won't for some time. If Intel could get their shit together and come out with a halfway decent GPU we might actually see some realistic GPU prices some day...
Sound cards are starting to move into the ridiculously priced range as well, but Creative Labs at least seems to have backed off from going entirely nuts on prices. Sound cards are an even poorer investment at over $50 or so, considering their development/component costs and function. As a matter of fact with recent motherboards I've found the onboard sound to sound at least as good to me as a $100+ FX Audio card from Creative Labs.
Console upgrades:
Sure consoles have to be upgraded. It's just that console "upgrades" are hidden as a new, mostly incompatible product, and with the new release price on consoles being ridiculously high for what they do(a toy) I'm surprised that they still sell. (Well the PS3 really isn't, and the Wii and XBOX360 are already down into reasonable price ranges.)
Consoles aren't even really state of the art v. a PC any longer when they initially come out either, unlike the old days where consoles were usually the first. Consoles today sound good on paper 2 or 3y before release, but the last couple of generations have been behind by the time they actually hit the street. Hell, the original XBOX was just a crippled PC with I'm sure some sort of variation of mobile Windows NT on it.
[/EDIT2]
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GothicGothicness
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Did you read my post, at , all? part of the game content is on your hard-drive like models and graphics heavy stuff, but logic and some other parts are streamed from server.
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Steel_Wind
General Manager
This thread depresses me
I hear you on that. It's not a happy topic.
Well. Let me do my Obama impression and offer you some HOPE.
I'm not going to suggest that PC gaming is going to make a resurgence. I don't think that will happen. But I do believe that for the forseeable future, Triple A cross-platform tiles on the PC will continue for a while at least. PC MMOs will continue. If you want party based games? No, I don't think there's much hope there. (Mind you - I don't think there's much hope those would continue on the PC if all was happy and cotton candy either).
But there is ONE thing that I think will happen which should please you. Indeed, it already has.
I think keyboards and wireless mice as viable input controllers are going to come to consoles. In fact, the PS3 already supports these. While I am a 360 fan, I got to admit - the theoretical keyboard and mouse support for game use on the PS3 is a powerful argument for that platform. That does not mean most games support it - they don't. But I believe those inputs are supported in UT3 for the PS3.
I think there are powerful meta-reasons why Microsoft has resisted this support on the 360. They are worried about killing off PC gaming and what that will do to their long term sales of Windows as well as the sales of their publishing partners and others in the industry. Some argue that It puts multiplayer matches on an uneven playing field if some players are using mice and some are not.
Anyways, the USB mouse is CRIPPLED by the API in the 360 so that it does not work during a game. Microsoft actively PREVENTS it from working.
But Sony does not have the same meta-concerns that Microsoft does - and if they push keyboards and mice to go after the hard core gamer for the PS3 (and that would be an EXCELLENT strategy for Sony as hardcore gamers have, to date, defected to the 360) then Microsoft will have no choice.
And while the console won't go away - it will end up feeling a lot more like a computer. (And if you continue this train of thought to the console being able to access the web and content there - and to run a browser application like Google is pitching for word processors and remote file storage - you can see why Microsoft might hesitate about turning the game console into a "secure" computer).
My point: I think the chances are very high that wireless keyboards and mice will be part of the supported input controls on the next generation of consoles that will follow this one.
That does not mean that console developers will necessarily end up making the games you prefer to play. But, I think the pressure to make the console more like a computer will be inexorable.
So long term? I think the mouse and keyboard will be there for you.
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This is indeed good - I actually have a PS3 (used mainly for blu-ray at the moment) and have noticed that my bluetooth wireless mouse/keyboard can be used with it.
This does offer hope for such input for future games. The downside, though, is that the controller will always be king - and control will always be designed around it and not a mouse/keyboard. That in itself will likely mean that at most input will be limited to the dozen or so input mechanisms of the controller - a mouse/keyboard may be possible, but I suspect most of the time that will be limited to remapping controller inputs. Leaving many, many input options un-assignable.
It will be interesting to see if FPS adopt mouse/keyboard on the PS3 though. That would be a first step towards it, where input options are limited comapred to the likes of an RPG. If it takes off, we could hope for better support for all games thereafter.
Still, it's the first console to truly support this - that in itself is a good sign.
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This sounds to me like a good solution - the amount of work done on the servers need not even be that great at all.... just enough to require regular contact and random enough that a pirate couldn't easiliy circumnavigate it.
The downside is the requirement for internet access during play. That alone is anathema to many PC players. To be honest, I'm one of them - I like the feeling that I buy a game, I own it, it'll work forever on compatible hardware regardless of the publisher dying and their servers going belly up. But if it that or PC games dying....
One thing's for sure, I think it would take a concerted effort by all publishers. To be the lone publisher doing this would likely result in financial suicide. But if all did so.... PC gamers would have little choice - accept it, or stop playing on PC.
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Not necessarily a bad thing, there's something to be said for controler limitations forcing designers to concentrate on whats important in the UI. The big loss from my point of view is the mouse, a much more useful device for inventory management, party control and so on.
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In the German gaming mag "Gamestar", this problem was also discussed.
The result of the aticle is basically the same as yours.
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Steel_Wind, I sounds like you know what you are talking about. It still amazes me, though. TQ turned a profit, no? Despite 90% piracy it turned a profit. If you can calculate a business plan assuming 90% piracy and make a profit, why are publishers shying away from that? What is the logic behind this "OMFG without piracy we would make 100% more money, that Sucks! Let's rather not make any money at all!"? And we don't even have to go into the argument on how wrong those numbers are, # illegal downloads does not equal # lost sales. These things seem so obvious that it seems hard to fathom that that kind of thinking still prevails at publishers. Of the games I pirated when I was young and foolish, I atcually played maybe 5% for more than an hour. My pocket money would have allowed me to buy maybe 1%. So I accept that pircay is really the reason for the publishers. But they are fools, then. That the industry would just give up on the platform with by far the biggest intalled base is beyond me.
The reason may be that going console proved the easier way. But it still seems the sign of a timid and ultimately un-innovative industry to me, that mostly got itself to blame for its own demise. And as consoles become more powerful, go online, and come to dominate the market, it will IMHO only be a matter of time until piracy comes to these systems on a similar scale. Its an issue already today, afaik, and its not going away.
BTW, I like the idea of labeling PC's for gaming capability. Maybe it could be a yearly label, e.g. "PC2008" will play any game with the PC2008 label or below.
The reason may be that going console proved the easier way. But it still seems the sign of a timid and ultimately un-innovative industry to me, that mostly got itself to blame for its own demise. And as consoles become more powerful, go online, and come to dominate the market, it will IMHO only be a matter of time until piracy comes to these systems on a similar scale. Its an issue already today, afaik, and its not going away.
BTW, I like the idea of labeling PC's for gaming capability. Maybe it could be a yearly label, e.g. "PC2008" will play any game with the PC2008 label or below.
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A business needs to do more than turn a profit, it needs to provide a return on capital sufficient to compensate for the risk. In this case they couldn't convince the publishers that the likely returns were worth the risk of further investment. Wide spread piracy doesn't just reduce the profits, it also increases the perception of risk.
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In my mind (I am a natural scientist) risk is associated with unpredictability (or volatility). I do see how piracy can reduce the profit margin (although not quite to the extent always claimed) but I don't see how it increases unpredicatability? The market that DOES buy the game, is relatively unaffected by piracy and can be assessed based on past performance of games - unless more an more people that used to buy games are now pirating. From anecdotal evidence (e.g. myself) it rather seems the reverse is true.
So have PC games regularly performed much worse (return of investment) than console games? Even then, there are many reasons for that, and the most obvious ones are the competition from consoles mixed in with the hardware issue discussed above. I am not saying piracy isn't a problem, but I think its a red herring if you want to solve the problems PC gaming is having. It just startles with these big huge numbers, but I think it is fundamentally flawed to assume that pirated copies equal lost sales, which seems to be the fundamental assumption here.
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zakhal
SasqWatch
They should give guarantees for the pcs too. In example if you buy "WindowsGamer PC 2008" it is guaranteed that all "Games for windows" trademarked games will work on that PC for the next 5 years (2013). If the game fails to work then it wont get the "Games for Windows" -approval stamp.
As for piracy I dont know what the situation is with new consoles but with the old ones everyone I know pirated all their games both xbox and playstation ones. It was no different to pc games.
The only console that I know that didnt get pirated was nintendo64 but that was because it used memory modules for the games instead of cds.
Id like to see the real numbers. According to wikipedia bioshock sold like 2 million on xbox (pc numbers included). That would mean that bioshock sold only ~350,000 on PC - twice less than witcher even. Somhow I doubt that.
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zakhal
SasqWatch
Perhaps the titan quest simply wasnt good enough - pc gamers are bored to playing diablo clones the last 10 years. Console gamers though might have bought it as a new experience.
If the claim about 90% piracy is true then sims should have sold 290 million total, half-life 80 million, doom3 35 million - thats quite a lot to except from sales - console sales even . Hers a list of som of the bestsellers on the pirate platform:
Notice som bestsellers this year like crysis (1 million), that orange box (1,34 million), bioshock (2 million total pc numbers were like 800k last fall iirc). Witcher sold quite well and Im sure there are others that are not listed.
Also its good to note that PC sales dont include digital downloads/etc so they are smaller than in reality.
If the claim about 90% piracy is true then sims should have sold 290 million total, half-life 80 million, doom3 35 million - thats quite a lot to except from sales - console sales even . Hers a list of som of the bestsellers on the pirate platform:
Notice som bestsellers this year like crysis (1 million), that orange box (1,34 million), bioshock (2 million total pc numbers were like 800k last fall iirc). Witcher sold quite well and Im sure there are others that are not listed.
Also its good to note that PC sales dont include digital downloads/etc so they are smaller than in reality.
magerette
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zakhal wrote:
Really I think there's a lot to this. One of the IL devs actually said something similar shortly after the x-pak came out, that a top down 3rd person arpg was dated and the market was saturated and they would have been better off with another project, or even a first person perspective.
Really I think there's a lot to this. One of the IL devs actually said something similar shortly after the x-pak came out, that a top down 3rd person arpg was dated and the market was saturated and they would have been better off with another project, or even a first person perspective.
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