GOP Corruption and Obstruction

dteowner said:

How about an article penned by Jesse himself?

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(snip)

Inflammatory, for sure. Implied or actual calls to violence against politicians from the other side? Sorry, dte — I can't see any of that there.

Again, simply put: high rhetoric, flying accusations of racism, unpatriotism, immorality, unfairness, or whatever, are nothing new in politics. However, implied or actual threats of violence are crossing a line that, IMO, should not be crossed, and that I have not seen crossed in American politics before now, by neither side. Not by members of Congress or other official, high-level representatives of either of the major parties.

More than that, I find it extremely troubling that you, dte, are unable or unwilling to acknowledge the crossing of that line. If you really see no difference between the rhetoric you're citing and the rhetoric we're objecting to here, I think the US really is in trouble. It means that threats of violence are now an accepted part of political discourse. With a country as big as yours, that means that actual violence is just around the corner.

Hand on your heart, would you really like to see, say, Nancy Pelosi — or Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson, for that matter — assassinated? I'm honestly a little scared that you'll say yes.

Dte, As you know, I don't have a particular idealogical loyalty to any given party. I'm not going to argue with the idea that extremism certainly exists on both sides of the political spectrum, and always needs to be spoken against and marginalized. It does. Talking about the crap going on this last week--not however many years ago-- isn't an attack on your beliefs or on moderate repubs, or people with basic, reasonable ideological differences with the current administration.

It's about what's happening to the country right now because some people in their efforts to change the political dynamic, are irresponsibly encouraging the worst elements in the underbelly of American politics. I firmly believe Timothy McVeigh would be at a Tea Party if he were alive today.

Does this mean every Tea Partier is a potential McVeigh? Of course not, but how many does it really take, and how many do we really want?

You can't tolerate/encourage the people who make money off the process constantly pushing a bunch of relentlessly ratcheted-up, negative, demonizing messages forever and not expect the fringe whackos to come crawling out of the woodwork, especially when you don't ever step up and refute the idea that Obama is Hitler, intends to take away your right to bear arms, put you in a FEMA internment camp, pull the plug on Grandma, and allow them to assert that any disagreeing philosophy, like progressivism itself, can't coexist in a democracy, but is a cancer that has to be cut out of the body politic with whatever force is necessary.

At some point, someone has to take responsibility for this kind of enabling and tone it down. They have to say "This is NOT us. This is not our party." Where are the grownups here?

I agree completely that at least 40% of the country is not happy with the bill and is unconvinced about its benefits, and that 40% of reasonable people should not be confused with said nutcases. There is plenty of room for criticism of the flaws in this, as we both have argued here in a reasonable debate. And that's a debate the country needs to have.

However, the fact is, this isn't really about healthcare at all. It's about playing politics. But at some point, somebody has to go out on the playground and straighten things out. In the past it may have been the job of the left, but I think it's the turn of the right, this time.

Jeezuz, people. We don't differentiate the step from "inciting" to "doing" unless is dems cuz that's too much thought? Fine. William Ayers didn't just threaten violence. He fucking did it. Where's the democratic leadership that should be decrying violence? Doing fucking dinner parties with him.

I suppose this is subliminal messaging to kill Dubya, too, right? That's how strained your logic is, so I might as well play along.

Let's take a look at our good friend Cindy Sheehan. Remember her?

During my speech at the rally, I iterated the importance of “throwing our bodies upon the gears” of the machine

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Nice thoughts. Where's the democrat outcry?
How about liberal golden boy Michael Moore? We all had a good laugh over this one.

Have you ever wanted to see Mitch McConnell walking around Capitol Hill carrying his own head in his hands after it's just been handed to him by the infamous Ari? Oh, baby, it won't be pretty -- but boy will it be sweet!

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But those are all different, right? Sure they're different, because those are messages y'all support, so you ignore the violent imagery. Y'all don't care for the Tea Party folks (and that's certainly your right), so you don't ignore the violent imagery there. Do I need to break out the hypocrite hammer again?

I'm staying out of this one because I hate both parties and want them both stranded on a desert island together.

dteowner said:

Jeezuz, people. We don't differentiate the step from "inciting" to "doing" unless is dems cuz that's too much thought? Fine. William Ayers didn't just threaten violence. He fucking did it. Where's the democratic leadership that should be decrying violence? Doing fucking dinner parties with him.

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William Ayers isn't even a member of the Democratic Party.

I suppose this is subliminal messaging to kill Dubya, too, right? That's how strained your logic is, so I might as well play along.

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That's Bush behind a No Parking sign. A No Parking sign is not the same as a crosshairs.

Let's take a look at our good friend Cindy Sheehan. Remember her?
Nice thoughts. Where's the democrat outcry?
How about liberal golden boy Michael Moore? We all had a good laugh over this one.

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Michael Moore isn't a representative of the Democratic Party either. He's more like the Dems' Rush Limbaugh. We're not discussing Rush Limbaugh's inanities here, you know -- we're discussing stuff said and done by elected representatives or party officials.

But those are all different, right? Sure they're different, because those are messages y'all support, so you ignore the violent imagery. Y'all don't care for the Tea Party folks (and that's certainly your right), so you don't ignore the violent imagery there. Do I need to break out the hypocrite hammer again?

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Sorry, dte -- you're the one with the double standard here. On the one side, we have official representatives of the party flaunting crosshairs and speaking at rallies that openly incite violence; on the other, we have a No Parking sign and a rabble-rouser *not* officially representing the party in question.

And with that, I'm going back to lurking on these American political threads, 'cuz it really is none of my beeswax if you fuck up your country, as long as you keep the mess in your own back yard.

yep, my last post on this ,too.
dte wrote:

But those are all different, right? Sure they're different, because those are messages y'all support, so you ignore the violent imagery. Y'all don't care for the Tea Party folks (and that's certainly your right), so you don't ignore the violent imagery there. Do I need to break out the hypocrite hammer again?

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I think both sides are playing this all up way too much for political purposes, but that doesn't address the problem at the core of the argument.

My state representative (Mary Fallin) stood on a balcony and helped hold up a Tea Party flag while other Congressmen waved their clenched fists to gin up the same protesters that were spitting on members of the same Congress they belong to as they walked in to vote. I don't pay Bill Ayers' salary, or Michael Moore's but I pay her damn salary, and to me, she has no right to do that in her elected capacity, whatever she may believe as a private citizen.

Sidenote: You need to move here, and I need to move to San Francisco or something.

Finding the extreme behavior upsetting has nothing to do with 'not caring for the Tea Party folks.' I've said before they have every right to protest and likened them to the protests of the sixties. It's elected politicians inciting the lunatic fringe to get a vote that bothers me.

And I'm sorry you think blaming the other side is the only way we can talk about this, because I always want to hear your side of things, and that makes it harder.

Well, we certainly can't have people raising a fist for something they believe in at a public event where they represent the United States.

Politicians are not people!

Übereil

@Ubereil--can't argue with that one.

@dte: I don't even know who those people are, let alone why they're relevant to death threats on elected officials. But you do get the last word with that one, as I can tell we're past the point of no return in this discussion. Sorry we couldn't find any common ground.

Tommie Smith and John Carlos, 1968 Olympics, wiki entry
I get a Dewey button for being more "up" on my civil rights history than you.
=================
I don't believe anyone has stated, "Go kill your congressman", so these horrifying inciteful acts of the Tea Party folks aren't the same as the direct actions of some few loons. Just as I said a few posts back, y'all only appear to draw a line between "inciting" and "doing" when it's lefties like Jesse and Al stirring up trouble.

Just ran across this and it seems to pertain to the topic at hand:
Man Arrested, Threatened to Kill Eric Cantor (huffpo)
also here, with the FBI affadavit:
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/man-charged-with-threatening-eric-cantor.php
Whoa buddy. The guy is seriously round the bend:

(c) LEBOON further stated that he is the "son of the god of Enoch" and that his father speaks through him. LEBOON stated that Eric Cantor is "pure evil"; will be dead; and that Cantor's family is suffering because of his father's wrath.

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It's unclear what pushed this fruitcake over the edge, but if he's even remotely ever been anything more organized than an anti-semite, I decry and apologize and so forth on the behalf of the opposition. I think he's an equal opportunity hater, though:

In yet another video, Leboon seems to threaten Obama.

"President Obama, you and Vice President Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and your Security Council say very bad things about me," he says "Your punishment is coming, the swine, it will be severe, and you will beg for mercy to your god. It will be severe, you will know god's swine, god has warned you

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(source, TPM)
The idea of knowing god's swine must be a pretty empty threat to a politician, I would think.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100329/ap_on_re_us/us_fbi_raids

We had some idiots emerge on our side today, too. I'm not sure that they're really on "our" side, though. We generally loves us some law enforcement, so it doesn't really fit for "our" guys to target the cops. These "armed compound" types are way out there past the libertarians.

OTOH, there's really nothing illegal about playing GI Joe in the woods. I guess it comes down to credible evidence. Since my standard approach is to support the authorities, I guess I'll assume these guys really were doing more than wasting perfectly good ammunition on trees and tin cans.

Well the CIA (or was it the FBI) said the greatest threat of terrorism was going to be from domestic extremists, and it sure seems to be true this year so far (not counting the underwear bomber's dud last Xmas).

I've seen it before though. People who were unstable are pushed over the edge by some traumatic event (like losing a job). But losing the battle on healthcare? Just seems weird…

OK, well moving on to something lighter.

Republicans spent $1,946 at topless club

The HORROR!!!

The Republican National Committee spent $1,946 last month at a sex-themed Hollywood club that features topless dancers and bondage outfits. Now the GOP wants its money back.

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Good luck on that.

Already been repaid by the RNC guy that spent it, actually. How dumb do you have to be to put that sort of thing on your expense report? Kinda worrisome that 'tards like that are supposedly directing the show for repubs.

So the RNC/GOP guy will be out the money unless....

Yep, he's out 2 large, but I doubt that will hurt him much. After all, Chairman Steele is supposedly wanting to buy a private jet for the RNC, so I'd bet those bozos are all ridiculously overpaid.

I don't have an issue with it, but I am sure the bible thumpers were outraged...

I've never really understood the attraction of that sort of thing (seems like taking an Ethiopian to a buffet without letting him eat), but like you I'm not going to judge. I'm just stunned that whoever did decide to go there thought he'd get away with turning it in on his expense report. That tells me that either that guy is a total dipshit, or this sort of "entertainment" quietly goes on all the time and this is just the only time it's been flagged and publicized. As you say, the thumpers can't be pleased. Steele has been under siege anyway, so I wonder if this plus the private jet idiocy will be enough to topple him. Don't think I'd miss him much.

edit-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/29/michael-steele-resignatio_n_517533.html
The calls for resignation have begun.

Expense rorting goes on all the time in most every country. The crime as always, is getting caught!!